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OfflineMycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: superfunkibey]
    #16334531 - 06/05/12 03:14 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Oh, that's sad to hear!
With fermented subs you often have fruit flies being attracted by the smell of lactic acid, acetic acid and alcohol. Insects usually carry a lot of contams and quickly destroy the favorable conditions in fermented materials, though I don't understand how they could get past the polyfill or cotton plugs you used.

I am also thinking your WBS and rice hull/sorghum haven't been fermented strongly. Be sure to ferment in tall containers, so the water surface is small and put a lid on to prevent too much oxygen from getting in.
Also use more inoculation material, so the surface will be completely covered within the first days.

A sewer smell is a bad sign. Sounds like something other than LAB is dominating. Molasses, sugar or starch can help, if your materials are really low on simple carbohydrates. Initially adding 5 - 10% by dry weight should be enough, but you got to be sure your solution really contains LAB.

Carsten

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Offlinesuperfunkibey
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
    #16377700 - 06/13/12 07:53 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

The sorghum jar is very well under way now, however some trich has started to form on the side.  Does this mean I still need to soak for a longer time?





My initial trials on spent grain+husk using LAB fermentation was a failure with trich growing all over the substrate.  However, I have continued to soak the remaining spent grain and added more LABS concentrate.  Too many factors could have contributed to this specific failure.

So I plan to try a smaller more controlled trial of spent grain/husk straight from fermentation, and also the same mix with pasteurization.  Just to see if there is any difference.


FYI here are some pictures of the LABS soak with the spent grain.  A lot of white film (yeast?) and now with a strong sour smell. 




Edited by superfunkibey (06/14/12 02:41 AM)

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OfflineMycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: superfunkibey]
    #16383966 - 06/15/12 03:00 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Damned, I think the green mold in the sorghum jar happened to grow on surface kernels, which stayed uncolonized for too long. If fermentation time would be too short, you should see green deeper in the substrate.

Yes, these flakes on the surface are aerobic organisms, mainly yeast species. I'd remove thick flakes with a spoon and reduce air exchange as far as possible.

Where does your LAB come from?

Carsten

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Offlinesuperfunkibey
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
    #16418739 - 06/22/12 03:08 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

@Mycelio

I got my LAB from a local guy.  No real assurance I got the real thing, but it did have a sweet molasses smell when I took a whiff.

Although there is a lot of yeast on top, the deeper layer does have a distinct sweet smell. Have tried scooping out yeast a couple of times but it grew back really fast. 

The sorghum jar is almost fully colonized but spots of green and brown mold are appearing near the top layer, also it seems the whole thing is shrinking a bit.  The sides of the first 3 inches are not longer flush to the jar. Don't know whats happening.

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OfflineMycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: superfunkibey]
    #16418829 - 06/22/12 03:48 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

OK, then you should have the proper LAB species, most likely isolated from soil.

This type of flaky yeast only grows at the surface, when enough oxygen is present.

Shrinking is common, it means that the mycelium contracts, while digesting the kernels.

Carsten

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Offlinedstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
    #17267726 - 11/23/12 06:18 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I had really like to bump threat threat, remember seeing it and experimenting :yesnod:
I think this method is underused!


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Offlineeosphorus
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
    #22537731 - 11/17/15 01:50 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)



I'm going to get some tibicos (also known as water kiefer) in the next few weeks. This is a lactic acid ferment which produces a granular SCOBY. Experiments will commence once the culture is well established and thriving under nominal conditions.

I welcome suggestions and input during this planning phase. I will start a new thread when I get the tibi culture and work commences.


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Offlineinvitro


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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
    #22542600 - 11/18/15 04:07 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

:sherlock:

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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: eosphorus]
    #22542654 - 11/18/15 04:16 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

eosphorus said:


I'm going to get some tibicos (also known as water kiefer) in the next few weeks. This is a lactic acid ferment which produces a granular SCOBY. Experiments will commence once the culture is well established and thriving under nominal conditions.

I welcome suggestions and input during this planning phase. I will start a new thread when I get the tibi culture and work commences.




Hah, we used that to make hard cider.

Interesting thread; never noticed it 'till now!


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Offlineinvitro


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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
    #23242181 - 05/18/16 02:06 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

I read through this thread a few times, and decided to give it a whirl.  Since there aren't too many people posting results I thought I'd start from the start and give my results for the basics.

If you take a look at the OP, I'm going to make a few comments about some of his statements here:

"Cook it shortly, so the kernels won't germinate" 
-If you don't cook the grains, maybe one in a thousand will still sprout despite the vigorous fermentation.

"remove kernels which are floating on top"
-I have left grains floating on top many times without seeing green mold so far.

"Close the lid loosely"
This is indeed important and helps to cut down on yeast foam on the surface.
I tried open air fermenting 6 times and they came out smelling horrific, I did closed lid fermenting 6 times and they all came out
much more mild "sweet and sour" as mycelio puts it.

After 4 days I drained the grains and put in Oyster spawn at 50% ratio, and wanting to see what happens with a regular shake, results were mixed and very poor overall.


Here are 3 jars out of maybe 20, these are pretty representative of overall results after a shake.  2 have virtually no recovery,
all grains have somewhat massive yeast infection, I'm not expecting much of a yield considering the extent of the yeast happening here.



Decent recovery, mostly on top:


No real recovery, remarkable inhibition since 50% of the grains were fully colonized.


It seems like the yeasty juices, when shaken around, splash onto the mycelium and prevent recovery, and thus the importance of adding spawn to the top only.

Also I can't emphasize strongly enough to make sure the lids on the grains with added spawn are very tight and fruit-fly proof.  Don't leave them unattended even for a second.  Although flies are not so interested in the fermentation process, they are very attracted to the grains once the water is drained, and maggots will quickly ruin things.  Also mites are very attracted to these grains.

That's it for now.

Edit: tried top get a better shot of the yeast apparent on some grain, I'm not sure if this is typical for everyone else but it's in almost every jar I have.


Edited by invitro (05/18/16 02:09 PM)

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Invisiblewoodrow
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: invitro]
    #23244781 - 05/19/16 03:13 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

The instructions on the OP appear to be from a tek to designed to prepare grain with the proper moisture content prior to putting it in the PC. The directions appear to be badly out of sequence if the intent is to prepare the grain for fermentation.

There is too much previous information to review to see what has gone before so I may be repeating earlier modifications but these are some changes that I have found to work with WBS and BR but mainly I have worked with WBS and my experiments are preliminary and ongoing.

First add the grain directly from the bag to the fermentation jar.
Washing removes some of the bacteria that serve as a starter for fermentation so do not wash the grain.
Also, do not boil the grain. The kernels won't germinate as long as conditions inside the jar are anaerobic.

It is best to begin small and then scale up. Here are some general instructions for a first stage of fermentation which is essentially preparation for a larger second fermentation. For the first run, the fermentation jar should be about a one quart size or larger with a lid that can be made air-tight. Fill the jar no more than one half full with WBS or no more than one quarter full if you are using a high starch grain like BR.

Add water to fill the jar about nine tenths full and close the lid but not too tight so the gasses can escape. It is optional whether you remove any floating kernels or not. Most will sink with time and molds will not grow as long as you exclude air from the jar. Do not open the jar and let air in.

Tighten the lid and invert the jar every day, at least for the first few days, then loosen the lid just enough to let the gasses escape but not so much that air can get in easily. This daily routine should speed the fermentation and kill any molds that might begin to grow.

Let the jar ferment until all bubbles stop. This should take about a week or two for WBS and longer for BR- faster in warn weather and slower in cold. The grain is ready at any time after obvious fermentation has stopped. 

Next, pour the fermentation mixture through a strainer and let it drain for about a half hour.
SAVE the liquid. The liquid is the lactic acid starter for your next batch.

Add the grain to small culture containers, like yogurt cups or baby food jars, and cover the jars with loose fitting lids or clear plastic held in place with rubber bands. Make sure any plastics you use are heat resistant. Keep the amount of grain in the jars small for rapid colonization.

Pasteurize the jars by steaming. A half hour in a steamer kettle or a brief steaming in a microwave should be enough to kill any mold spores but not totally destroy the friendly lactic acid bacilli.

Let the jars cool slowly and inoculate after they have cooled. The jars can be inoculated in open air provided your environment is fairly mold free. Fermented grain is forgiving of contams but molds are still a problem.

The second fermentation can be started while the first is incubating and the second batch is a larger up-scaled version of the first. The liquid saved from the first fermentation serves as a starter for the second and the small cultures from the first batch can be used as a G2G spawn for larger jars in the second.

As stated in the OP, success with this tek depends on the use of a large amount of spawn placed directly on top of the grain in the jars and allowed to SLOWLY penetrate to the bottom of the jars. Shaking the jars is likely to lead to failure.

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Offlineinvitro


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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: woodrow]
    #23245798 - 05/19/16 12:05 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks for posting,

Why do you say ferment "until the bubbles stop"?  As opposed to doing a 4-5 day ferment?

What is the point of inverting the jars?

Also, the 20 pages of discussion is some discussion of aerobic vs anaerobic fermentation, some speculation (without experimentation) like adding bokashi etc. and tons of people saying "cool idea", the experimentation info is all condensed into the OP.

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Invisiblewoodrow
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: invitro]
    #23248292 - 05/20/16 12:38 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

invitro said:
Why do you say ferment "until the bubbles stop"?  As opposed to doing a 4-5 day ferment?



Measuring the progress of a fermentation by the number of days is unreliable because of variations in temperature, the amount of bacteria, the pH level, or the amount of fermentable carbohydrate.
A fermentation stops working as evidenced by a lack of bubbles when it is nearing its end and everything slows. It has gone about as far as it will go.

Quote:

invitro said:
What is the point of inverting the jars?




Inverting the jars is a practice borrowed from brewing where anything floating to the surface tends to become moldy. Molds can't compete with the anaerobic ferments going on below so  inverting the fermentation vessel and giving it an occasional swirl is a good way of killing any molds by drowning.

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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: woodrow]
    #23251778 - 05/20/16 08:59 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

only heterofermentative organisms produce bubbles in fermentation if your fermentation spoilers are homofermentative there won't be bubbles at all but there will still be fermentation

bubbles are usually yeast fermentation creating alcohol and co2

lactic acid bacteria can be homo or hetero but if you have lactic acid bacteria there's a good chance you might have a homofermentative organism that just makes lactic acid and no co2


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Invisiblewoodrow
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23252241 - 05/20/16 11:53 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

This is a mixed culture fermentation on non-sterile, unwashed grain so some wild yeasts and heterofermenters are to be expected. There is no need for more than ten percent head space in the fermentation vessel because the environment favors homofermentative LAB's so bubbles are formed but not so many as to cause a foam-over.

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Invisibleopenmindedcanvas
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
    #23303495 - 06/03/16 01:36 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

might have to give this a try

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OfflineCameron1996
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: openmindedcanvas]
    #23309048 - 06/05/16 12:30 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

thats fucking cool...the science behind grains ageing while submurged..so the acidicness of the grain comes out into the water and the surrounding ph drops or does the lactic acid do that?

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Invisiblewoodrow
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Cameron1996]
    #23309328 - 06/05/16 03:25 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Cameron1996 said:
thats fucking cool...the science behind grains ageing while submurged..so the acidicness of the grain comes out into the water and the surrounding ph drops or does the lactic acid do that?




Starch in the grain is made up of long chains of glucose molecules. Fermentation chops the starch molecules into shorter chains of glucose and it also converts individual glucose molecules into two molecules of lactic acid. So the acid comes from the lactic acid bacteria (LAB) as they convert starch to lactic acid. The fermentation stalls when the pH levels drop to the point where even the LAB's can no longer function and the grain becomes a toxic mix of lactic acid and LAB's.

The low pH helps make the grain contam resistant. This is a common method of preserving foods such as sauerkraut, pickles, or yogurt.  The grain is also toxic to shroom spawn. This is why the spawn can't be mixed into the grain. Instead, the spawn is spread in a generous layer across the top of the grain. Shroom mycelia can utilize lactic acid as a carbon source so the environment becomes less toxic at the interface where the spawn is consuming lactic acid and overgrowing the LAB's as it grows its way to the bottom.

I haven't tried the tek described in the OP where the grain is pasteurized BEFORE fermentation. It makes more sense to me to pasteurize the grain AFTER fermentation and a pre-pasteurization seems counterproductive but, if the tek in the OP works as described, it may be possible to eliminate the pasteurization step entirely which would make this a totally no-heat tek from beginning to end.

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OfflineCameron1996
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: woodrow]
    #23309363 - 06/05/16 04:04 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

so the LAB builds there own sort of antibiotic..but not really an antibiotic as just a low acidic ph like how we preserve our food. is there lactic acid bacteria in just about everything? like dmt or atp(exept i dont think plants contain atp) but is it about the same concept as that?

OP said he added heat or (pastureized) to stop the seeds from germinating... maybe you could avoid this process by partially germinating the grain seeds then sun drying them to stop growth for good. like what can happen with your weed seeds if u let it go dry before they germinate.. to stop growth of your grain so it would be a complete oven free process

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Invisiblewoodrow
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Registered: 03/17/03
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Cameron1996]
    #23310783 - 06/05/16 02:10 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Cameron1996 said:

OP said he added heat or (pastureized) to stop the seeds from germinating... maybe you could avoid this process by partially germinating the grain seeds then sun drying them to stop growth for good. like what can happen with your weed seeds if u let it go dry before they germinate.. to stop growth of your grain so it would be a complete oven free process




The seeds don't germinate if they are totally submerged in an anaerobic environment so pasteurization to prevent sprouting is unnecessary as long as air is excluded from the fermentation. Pasteurization also kills most of the bacteria needed for fermentation so the OP's early pasteurization may be counterproductive.

The method you suggested of sprouting the grain and drying it is a process brewers call “malting” and it may be of benefit to the fermentation.

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