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InvisibleLallafa
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Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 2,598
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oppose US war in iraq
    #871810 - 09/09/02 08:39 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

z


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my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


Edited by Lallafa (02/24/10 11:11 AM)


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InvisibleRevelation

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Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,130
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Re: oppose US war in iraq [Re: Lallafa]
    #871987 - 09/09/02 10:14 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

That's a great article.


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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
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Registered: 01/26/01
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Re: oppose US war in iraq [Re: Revelation]
    #872057 - 09/09/02 10:51 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Agreed, that was an excellent (although painfully long) article..thank you.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisiblePGF
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Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
Re: oppose US war in iraq [Re: Lallafa]
    #872874 - 09/09/02 05:41 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

good read.

bump


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***The Real Shroomery nigger


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OfflineBboyDevious
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Registered: 09/01/02
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Re: oppose US war in iraq [Re: PGF]
    #873269 - 09/09/02 09:31 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

excellent!


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"Life without knowledge is death in disguise"
Talib Kweli


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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Registered: 01/27/02
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Re: oppose US war in iraq [Re: Lallafa]
    #873399 - 09/09/02 11:32 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

That was a very informative article. Thanks for finding it, i'm gonna send it to a few of my right wing/pro war friends(of course once they see that it's written by socialists they'll condem it  :grin: oh well) 


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Religion is for people who are afraid of going to Hell; spirituality is for those who have been there.


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InvisibleLallafa
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Registered: 04/13/01
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Re: oppose US war in iraq [Re: Lallafa]
    #880626 - 09/12/02 02:58 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

z


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my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


Edited by Lallafa (02/24/10 11:10 AM)


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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: oppose US war in iraq [Re: Lallafa]
    #880748 - 09/12/02 04:25 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Parts of that essay made sense, adhered reasonably closely to objectively verifiable facts, and presented some opinions that are arguably valid. Other parts did not. Let me cherry-pick a few:

Its impending attack on Iraq is the culmination of two decades of increasingly reckless and aggressive behavior, in the course of which American forces have bombed, attacked, occupied or organized armed subversion in more than a dozen countries: Nicaragua, Panama, Grenada, Haiti, Somalia, Sudan, Libya, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and the various states and fragments comprising the former Yugoslavia.

Some of the people in the countries listed above are pretty grateful that the US aided their subversives. Life in the Duvalier's Haiti, for example, was pretty grim. Somalia and Yugoslavia -- what did the US do wrong in Somalia and Yugoslavia? They were part of a UN peace-keeping force. Same question for Lebanon and Sudan. Iran? What did the US do to Iran, other than cower like whipped dogs during the hostage crisis?

...through a campaign of demonization by the American government and media which has frequently been employed to turn yesterdays friends into todays enemieslike Manuel Noriega of Panama, Mohamed Aideed of Somalia, Slobodan Milosevic of Yugoslavia, and even Osama bin Laden (yesterdays anti-Soviet freedom fighter, todays arch-terrorist).

No campaign of demonization was necessary... all of those people are (and/or always were) thugs. This is one of the most oft-repeated lunacies of critics of US foreign policy: their dogma that once a country decides to deal with a particular leader or government, they must ALWAYS do so for all time. As an example, take the Shah of Iran. At one point, he was a harsh but tolerably (especially in light of his predecessors and neighbors) acceptable head of state. In the early part of his rule he did a lot of good things. But as time passed, he threw more and more human rights out the window, to the point where the US just quietly sat back and let him get overthrown rather than prop him up. The horrors that took place during and after the fundamentalist's rise to power led many people to criticize the US "abandonment" of their former ally.

Note that the US was far from alone in dealing with Panama, Somalia, Yugoslavia, etc. Many socialist countries did business with them as well. The US was also FAR from the only country to provide asistance to the Afghan mujahadin in their struggle to evict the Soviet occupation force.

Even if it were true that Iraq still has some weapons proscribed by the UN, since when has the mere possession of such weapons systems been a sufficient basis for invading a country?

It's not their possession of these weapons PER SE that is the issue. It's the fact that the destruction of WMDs and facilities for manufacturing WMDs was the KEY condition of the UN coalition's acceptance of Iraq's surrender. If Iraq hadn't started a war, then lost it, they would be free to develop nuclear weapons. IF they have in fact retained stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, or IF they are developing weapons grade nuclear materials, they are in violation of the terms of surrender. At this point neither you nor I nor the author of that article knows for a FACT that they are not in the process of developing nuclear weapons. They might (or might not) be.

The removal of this regime is the task of the Iraqi people, not the American government.

And how, pray tell, are the Iraqi people supposed to accomplish this without outside assistance? It's not as if they can VOTE him out of power the next election year, since there ARE no elections in Iraq. It's not as if they can start an armed rebellion, since all arms are controlled by the ruling regime. They can't even PROTEST against him -- they'll be executed.

The Bush administration draws its leading personnel from the social layer whose systematic corruption has been laid bare in the corporate scandals of the past year.

The same can be said of the Clinton administration. By body count (convictions), the Clinton administration was actually worse.

Army Secretary Thomas White is a former Enron executive.

So what?

Vice President Dick Cheney is under investigation for accounting fraud in his previous role as CEO of the energy construction firm Halliburton.

Let's discuss this further if he is ever indicted and convicted.

Bush himself made his personal fortune on the basis of insider trading and cronyism.

When was he indicted and convicted of insider trading? What exactly is "cronyism"? What is the legal penalty for cronyism?

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Treasury Secretary Paul ONeill are both former CEOs, while other top officials served as lobbyists for the energy, drug and automobile industries.

Much as I dislike lobbyists, lobbying is not a criminal act in the US, nor is being a CEO, although I have no doubt that the author of this screed would like both to be made illegal.

Such a movement must be based on a socialist program, because imperialist war is an inevitable product of the contradictions of the capitalist system...

These are the OPINIONS of socialists, not facts. WHAT contradictions? WHICH capitalist nation has initiated a war of imperialism?

...above all in the most powerful center of world capitalism, the United States.

The United States is no longer capitalist. It has more remnants of capitalism than most other countries, true, but it follows the "mixed economy" or "interventionist" form of government, and has done since the Great Depression. Until 1997, the REAL center of world capitalism (such as it was) was Hong Kong.

...facing powerful trade rivals in both Europe and Asia, and gargantuan trade and payments deficits which presage national bankruptcy.

Trade deficits do not automatically lead to national bankruptcy. As a matter of fact, with today's bizarre governmental economic sleight of hand, neither do payment deficits.

The population is divided between a small fraction enjoying unprecedented wealth...

It is true that the richest quintile of Americans are rich indeed. It is also true that the poorest quintile of Americans are wealthier (per capita) than the majority of the rest of the people (per capita) on the planet.

It is impossible to maintain democratic forms in a society in which such a tiny percentage of the population controls all the wealth and holds the rest of the people hostage to their profit interests.

What is the basis for this opinion? The vote of an American welfare mother counts as much at the ballot box as the vote of Bill Gates. Isn't that the way democracy is supposed to work? One person, one vote?

All the classic features of imperialism identified by Lenin at the beginning of the twentieth centurythe colonial-style occupation of countries, military struggles to grab sources of raw materials...

Lenin's followers were certainly pretty good at both of those moves, but I am having a hard time pointing to an American-occupied colony, or a source of raw materials the US seized through military struggle.

For working people, the struggle against imperialist war and the defense of living standards and democratic rights are two sides of the same fight.

I ask again, which American working people (or even welfare recipients and panhandlers, for that matter) are not allowed to exercise their democratic rights? Can they not vote, or run for political office, or campaign for a favored candidate?

pinky


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: oppose US war in iraq [Re: Phred]
    #880840 - 09/12/02 05:11 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I ask again, which American working people (or even welfare recipients and panhandlers, for that matter) are not allowed to exercise their democratic rights? Can they not vote, or run for political office, or campaign for a favored candidate?

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! Nice speech pinky, but since when does the will of the people mean anything? So I can vote and choose between a crook or a thief? Makes me feel so powerful. I hated Bush and Gore was no prize, but I went with him anyways only to see Jeb Bush throw the brass ring to his brother.

When is the last time you toked up in public? Posted a picture on the net of you growing shrooms, along with your face, name and address ? You haven't? Why don't you vote or run for office? The system works, right?

Almost ALL positive change throughout history has not come from within the system, but through circumventing it!


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineMalevolent_Angel
Darkness Calls

Registered: 07/25/02
Posts: 78
Loc: Home
Last seen: 14 years, 18 days
Re: oppose US war in iraq [Re: Lallafa]
    #880841 - 09/12/02 05:11 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

good shit dude


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OfflineJammer
Computers areMORE Addictive!

Registered: 11/05/00
Posts: 3,998
Loc: (God's Country) - USA
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Re: oppose US war in iraq [Re: Lallafa]
    #880933 - 09/12/02 06:40 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Damm. It wasnt untill I seen your link at the bottom that I realized that you didnt write that! :smirk:

It is very imformative. 


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>>Jammer>>


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
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Re: oppose US war in iraq [Re: Swami]
    #880978 - 09/12/02 07:44 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Swami writes:

Nice speech pinky, but since when does the will of the people mean anything? So I can vote and choose between a crook or a thief? Makes me feel so powerful.

This is why I am in favor of Laissez-faire Capitalism. I am a "Libertarian", or "Minarchist" or whatever phrase you feel most comfortable with. I think the Founding Fathers got it right the first time -- the only legitimate function of government is to protect its citizens from the initiation of force. Government has the responsibility and the power delegated to it by the people to run the police, the courts, and the military. Period.

Of course, it has been a very long time since the US government restricted itself to doing its job. As Evolving says, to today's politicians the Constitution is what they use to wipe their feet as they enter office.

Nonetheless, when someone speaks of "democratic rights", what else can it mean than what I described? Run for office, campaign for the candidate of your choice, and vote. What did I miss?

The fact that you feel neither of the candidates from the two largest parties is worth voting for is not the issue. The issue is, can you vote or can you not? Can you run for office or can you not?

If you felt Gore was "no prize", why did you vote for him? There were other candidates on the ballot, were there not?

When is the last time you toked up in public?

I dunno. I think it was at a Jethro Tull concert in Montreal in the early Seventies, but I wouldn't swear to it.

Posted a picture on the net of you growing shrooms, along with your face, name and address ?

I don't have a webcam, a digicam, a scanner, or even a film camera, for that matter. But I live in the Dominican Republic, where there are no laws against possessing or consuming psilocybes, so if I ever get around to borrowing a digicam, I might do just that.

Why don't you vote or run for office?

I am not eligible to run for office in the US. Can't vote in US elections either. As for Dominican politics -- *shudder* -- No way I would want to sit in the Dominican congress as a way of life, thank you.

pinky


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OfflineBullfrog1
Discovery BeyondImagination

Registered: 07/03/02
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Re: oppose US war in iraq [Re: Phred]
    #881088 - 09/12/02 10:55 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Good critic Pinksharkmark,
Couldn't have said it better myself. Maybe if our "liberal" friends here lived within striking range of these WMD they would view the whole situation in a different light.
Oh, I forgot, they live in the "shielded" USA where people only have to worry about their neighbors insanity.

Bullfrog1


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