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 AlphaFalfa
imagine
Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 3,857
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 Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. 
#8707731 - 07/31/08 02:17 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I cannot believe free will exists after this test I took to prove to me it actually is only something we imagine exists.
Try to imagine a color that you have never had the chance to see in your life.
I cant do this, I only imagine I do when I mix two colors I have seen before and get a new color. But this still is not enough, the supposed new color is just two old colors, put together, so its still old, it just seems new, identically to how it seems like I have free will.
Free is defined as unlimited by many dictionaries and its the way I will use it here.
Will is identical with choice.
Free choice and free will are the same then.
Problem: If I choose a color, to best represent my favorite color, I can only choose from the colors I have experienced in my life. Why? Well I cant fucking think about a color that I have NEVER SEEN, and its fucking blatantly obvious that I cant choose a color that I cant think about. Why? Try to choose something you can think about? See, you cant choose it, because its not there to choose from out of all your thoughts your thinking.
And since I can only choose from the colors that I have seen in my life, then my choice IS not unlimited, because my life is limited to my life. Ex. A person wakes up and says, I would like to travel. This person's life has showed him that only 2 countries exist in the world. His choice about where to travel is limited because there surely are more than two countries in the world....atleast to those who have had the chance in life to see that there is.
Conclusion; Our choices are limited by the things we learn in our life. And since our choices are limited, then to say we have free will, happens when our life has limited us to choose that we do not have free unlimited choice.
Did I have the free will to write this - Yes, in my imagination....And no when I see that I can only choose what is best, within what my life has given me the opportunity to do.
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if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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 sui
I love you.
 
Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 32,583
Loc: Cali, Contra Costa Co. 
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#8707745 - 07/31/08 02:20 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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i think youre thinking a little too into this.
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"There is never a wrong note, bend it." Jimi Hendrix
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toastandjam
Tastes Grate, Lesh Philling
Registered: 05/07/06
Posts: 752
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#8707748 - 07/31/08 02:21 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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There is no such thing as free will, there is only the total overriding experience and sensation of free will. Enjoy it.
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Q: We wanted to see if you had the ability to expand your mind and your horizons... and for one brief moment, you did.
PICARD: When I realized the paradox...
Q: Exactly. For that one fraction of a second, you were open to options you'd never considered. That's the exploration that awaits you...not mapping stars and studying nebulae... but charting the unknowable possibilities of existence.
To carry yourself forward and experience myriad things is delusion. That myriad things come forth and experience themselves is awakening. -Dogen Zenji
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AlphaFalfa
imagine
Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 3,857
Loc: 3 Seconds Ago.
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: sui]
#8707764 - 07/31/08 02:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I only think to the point that I think is best.
It doesnt look like you've read it though, cuz if you did you would see that I dont have the free will to think to much or to little, but just what I think is best.
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if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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drok
carpetbagger
Registered: 06/09/08
Posts: 1,317
Loc: on my high horse
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: toastandjam]
#8707773 - 07/31/08 02:25 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Woah
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: toastandjam]
#8707809 - 07/31/08 02:33 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
toastandjam said:
There is no such thing as free will, there is only the total overriding experience and sensation of free will. Enjoy it.
Correct. Nature and consciousness itself are merely a process. Literal 'free will' just isn't a part of this universe. However, due to the formation of the ego during human psychological development, we get the sensation that there is an 'I' or 'me' behind our physical behaviors and psychological affects. The mere suggestion of the possibility of free agency in living organisms is misguided because it simply cannot be reconciled with the known structure of the universe from which 'we' were spawned. Free will is a literal absurdity.
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AlphaFalfa
imagine
Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 3,857
Loc: 3 Seconds Ago.
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: it stars saddam]
#8707822 - 07/31/08 02:36 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Woah is true, I am having a hard time believing my own words.
Reading it over!!!
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if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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AlphaFalfa
imagine
Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 3,857
Loc: 3 Seconds Ago.
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#8707834 - 07/31/08 02:39 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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wow thats is amazing.
I think this is the reason we make mistakes or mistakes happen. yeah mistakes happen.
We just CANT see what is the best choice to make, in relation to our goal...the choice doesnt even exist for us to choose, until we see that our previous choice was not the right one!!! BANG we learnt right there that it was not.
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if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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The_Ghost
ゴースト
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#8707857 - 07/31/08 02:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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What you're basically saying is because we could technically speaking calculate every possible choice of a given situation, there is a limit to those choices. You are using that logic to state that not being able to make a choice that cant be made == lack of free will.
Your logic is flawed.
A choice is a choice is a choice.
The ability to make that choice is will.
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/ / / / / / / LISTEN TO MY MUSIC: E X E D / / / / / / /
The universe gives no fucks. And takes no fucks.
May His Circuits Ever Function
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#8707861 - 07/31/08 02:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
AlphaFalfa said: Free choice and free will are the same then.
This is your problem: choice is not identical with will in the way that you are using it. Just because I only have a limited number of options to choose from does not mean that I do not have free will, as I can still freely choose which option I want to pick. The will, or volition, is merely our capability to perform an action--it is this capability that is in question when one inquires about free will.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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drok
carpetbagger
Registered: 06/09/08
Posts: 1,317
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: The_Ghost]
#8707866 - 07/31/08 02:44 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Id have to put some agreement into my friend ghosts statement
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CLICK HERE FOR GOOD MUSIC
CLICK HERE FOR GOOD MUSIC
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OneMoreRobot3021
Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 61,026
Loc: the sky
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#8707874 - 07/31/08 02:46 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I've definitely seen colors while tripping with eyes closed that don't "exist" otherwise.
Of course the mind has unlimited freedom...we're just raised to think in certain ways and sometimes it takes an alchemical nudge to learn how to think beyond that box. 
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Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.
-Erik Davis
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golden1
Registered: 06/18/08
Posts: 1,707
Loc: north korea
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#8707898 - 07/31/08 02:52 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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if you think about it, everything we do is based on the past and our senses. So when you get down to it, we are just following a path. good enough for me though
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The_Ghost
ゴースト
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: golden1]
#8707914 - 07/31/08 02:55 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
golden1 said:
if you think about it, everything we do is based on the past and our senses. So when you get down to it, we are just following a path. good enough for me though
No, that would be the equivalent of being a pre-programmed robot. Which some people seem to be. But we have the capacity for leading a much more creative existence.
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/ / / / / / / LISTEN TO MY MUSIC: E X E D / / / / / / /
The universe gives no fucks. And takes no fucks.
May His Circuits Ever Function
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Cameron
Too Many Words
Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 4,437
Loc: Canada
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: golden1]
#8707938 - 07/31/08 03:01 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yeah, if you really want to take it to the extreme, then everything we've done can be traced back to our childhood and experiences therein which were out of our control, and which shaped our current personalities. People with a great childhood usually become average, properly initiated citizens, whereas people with traumatic experiences sometimes become serial killers and child rapists with repressed memories of sexual and physical abuse.
I draw the line at the present moment and what I am capable of right now. Do I have the option of lifting a hand, standing, picking a career of my choice, jumping into traffic? Sure, I can take my life in any number of directions based on my decisions right now. Are my decisions influenced by my past? Of course, but that doesn't change the fact that my psyche is the only thing holding me back. 
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toastandjam
Tastes Grate, Lesh Philling
Registered: 05/07/06
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: golden1]
#8707949 - 07/31/08 03:03 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
golden1 said:
if you think about it, everything we do is based on the past and our senses. So when you get down to it, we are just following a path. good enough for me though
I actually wrote a paper on the nature of free will (and its illusion) while I was going to school. I think what you're talking about is the more fascinating approach to the illusion because it starts to get down to explaining it, rather than merely proposing its existence. I think its pretty reasonable.
Quote:
We tend to think of people as seeking out a goal, focusing our consideration on where they might be going, rather than on where they have been. When decisions are made in our brains, information is utilized –information found in beliefs, desires, memories, and plans, all completely subjective products of where we have been. The sensation of consciously willing actions may come from our inability to completely access, in a conscious way, all the means by which our brains decide to execute any given task. Thus, we have the sensation of spontaneously creating our future as we go. It has been proposed that consciousness emerges as the organizing, cross-referencing aspect of all that the brain does. In that case, the feeling of will is not a direct readout of why we do things-- we do not will ourselves into action at all-- it is the result of a mental system that oversees the role of our brain-generated minds moment by moment, as a sort of humanometer.
The illusion of free will is necessary for us to have the capacity to wonder about it. Despite not really having free will, in the perfect illusion of it we are aware of those actions and are hence able to learn better from them. Additionally, by interacting with memory, we have the potential to learn from situations without ever having to engage in them. It is our subjectivity that validates our experience, explaining why the illusion of free will becomes necessary and ultimately makes the concept of "I am…" possible. That is why, in the end, the subjective experience of each individual is of primary importance.
--------------------
Q: We wanted to see if you had the ability to expand your mind and your horizons... and for one brief moment, you did.
PICARD: When I realized the paradox...
Q: Exactly. For that one fraction of a second, you were open to options you'd never considered. That's the exploration that awaits you...not mapping stars and studying nebulae... but charting the unknowable possibilities of existence.
To carry yourself forward and experience myriad things is delusion. That myriad things come forth and experience themselves is awakening. -Dogen Zenji
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JacquesCousteau
Being.
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 7,825
Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: Cameron]
#8707971 - 07/31/08 03:05 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cameron said:People with a great childhood usually become average, properly initiated citizens, whereas people with traumatic experiences sometimes become serial killers and child rapists with repressed memories of sexual and physical abuse.
People with "great childhoods" also sometimes grow up to be apathetic losers with no motivation.
And (more importantly) traumatic childhoods can also lead to incredible leaps and bounds in spiritual growth.
It all depends on the courage inside an individual to explore outside of what is familiar.
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golden1
Registered: 06/18/08
Posts: 1,707
Loc: north korea
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: toastandjam]
#8707988 - 07/31/08 03:10 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
toastandjam said:
Quote:
golden1 said:
if you think about it, everything we do is based on the past and our senses. So when you get down to it, we are just following a path. good enough for me though
I actually wrote a paper on the nature of free will (and its illusion) while I was going to school. I think what you're talking about is the more fascinating approach to the illusion because it starts to get down to explaining it, rather than merely proposing its existence. I think its pretty reasonable.
Quote:
We tend to think of people as seeking out a goal, focusing our consideration on where they might be going, rather than on where they have been. When decisions are made in our brains, information is utilized –information found in beliefs, desires, memories, and plans, all completely subjective products of where we have been. The sensation of consciously willing actions may come from our inability to completely access, in a conscious way, all the means by which our brains decide to execute any given task. Thus, we have the sensation of spontaneously creating our future as we go. It has been proposed that consciousness emerges as the organizing, cross-referencing aspect of all that the brain does. In that case, the feeling of will is not a direct readout of why we do things-- we do not will ourselves into action at all-- it is the result of a mental system that oversees the role of our brain-generated minds moment by moment, as a sort of humanometer.
The illusion of free will is necessary for us to have the capacity to wonder about it. Despite not really having free will, in the perfect illusion of it we are aware of those actions and are hence able to learn better from them. Additionally, by interacting with memory, we have the potential to learn from situations without ever having to engage in them. It is our subjectivity that validates our experience, explaining why the illusion of free will becomes necessary and ultimately makes the concept of "I am…" possible. That is why, in the end, the subjective experience of each individual is of primary importance.
yeah I was having a hard time putting it into words, but that is exactly what I was trying to say. it sounds logical to me
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Cameron
Too Many Words
Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 4,437
Loc: Canada
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
#8708001 - 07/31/08 03:12 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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True, the outcome of a 'good' or 'bad' childhood is hugely dependent on the person, or is it?
How reliant are our decisions on past experience and brain configuration? Do the people with the 'courage to explore the unfamiliar' really step outside of their past experience and the chain of decisions associated with it, or has their life influenced their decision to try something new? 
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JacquesCousteau
Being.
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: Cameron]
#8708012 - 07/31/08 03:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well, I guess it is everyone's opinion... but I can say personally that I have had so much spiritual growth AND opportunities to avoid it out of fear... at this point I am very aware of a responsibility on my part to maintain a loving mode of operation... and even more so I am aware of my ability to bury my head in the sand by choice.
You could say that I am a product of my upbringing and will make decisions based on thus, but the truth is, there is only one question being asked, over and over. "Do you accept?" and I have the options of either YES or NO... and that IS the extent of my free will.
In every moment I can either choose to accept the nature of my reality, or I can choose to deny the nature of my reailty. This is free will, and I don't believ that my ability to choose one or the other is generated by my history. I only believe that my history generated my awareness of the opportunity to make this decision in any given moment. Or in other words, I believe that my history was a path that inevitably led to my realization of free will.
Edited by JacquesCousteau (07/31/08 03:19 PM)
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AlphaFalfa
imagine
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
#8708013 - 07/31/08 03:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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The problem with choice is the following;
I have the choice to eat someones ASS out. Right?
Wrong, I dont, this is why I dont do it. The choice is not an option, not because I choose it to be, but because thats the way it exists. My want makes my choice, when I can make my choice, is when I make my want. But even your want to make your want, is still not chosen by you, just expressed.
For example, I choose to act on logic instead of previous experience.
Why?
Because i have the free choice to do so?
Nop. We have the experience that enables us to SEE that this choice, is the best to make.
While making a choice we ALWAYS decide through the following question; What is the best choice to make?
Since we always make a decision based on what is the best choice, our will is determined by the knowledge we HAVE in our life....
Tieing back to free will - this knowledge is LIMITED.
But Dont get it twisted, I never said that the LIMITS are limited, the limits are endless, new world after new world, new challenge after new challenge. Live, learn and play.
Ps. By saying the limits are endless, I do not mean that a limit is endless. I mean that the limits we face in life, are always there, always endless. Like overcoming and obstacle and being faced with a new one...limitless limits, limitless limited choices!
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if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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metalmorph
Pat Badass
Registered: 07/26/08
Posts: 1,592
Loc: So. Maryland
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#8708026 - 07/31/08 03:19 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Whoa, man. That's so deep. and I never really though about a color that i haven't seen before, because it's so abysmal as quoting a book I've never read before. Now, I need to go think about it. Man, everything has a contradiction.
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JacquesCousteau
Being.
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Posts: 7,825
Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
#8708032 - 07/31/08 03:20 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
JacquesCousteau said:
Well, I guess it is everyone's opinion... but I can say personally that I have had so much spiritual growth AND opportunities to avoid it out of fear... at this point I am very aware of a responsibility on my part to maintain a loving mode of operation... and even more so I am aware of my ability to bury my head in the sand by choice.
You could say that I am a product of my upbringing and will make decisions based on thus, but the truth is, there is only one question being asked, over and over. "Do you accept?" and I have the options of either YES or NO... and that IS the extent of my free will.
In every moment I can either choose to accept the nature of my reality, or I can choose to deny the nature of my reailty. This is free will, and I don't believ that my ability to choose one or the other is generated by my history. I only believe that my history generated my awareness of the opportunity to make this decision in any given moment. Or in other words, I believe that my history was a path that inevitably led to my realization of free will.
Quoted my edit, incase you missed my elaboration, Cameron. 
I love your new avatar, btw. And your posts in general. 
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toastandjam
Tastes Grate, Lesh Philling
Registered: 05/07/06
Posts: 752
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: golden1]
#8708035 - 07/31/08 03:20 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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To make our decisions more deliberate and measured as opposed to being more random (like simpler organisms), the brain needs to be able to gather relevant information and respond within a time frame. Because of this organization, the decision has to come together before we become consciously aware of making it, considering and cross referencing loads of unconscious information.
Dr. Haynes, the researcher behind this work, spoke at Carnegie-Mellon University last October. He explained that he could use functional MRI to determine what participants were going to decide several seconds before that decision was consciously made.
--------------------
Q: We wanted to see if you had the ability to expand your mind and your horizons... and for one brief moment, you did.
PICARD: When I realized the paradox...
Q: Exactly. For that one fraction of a second, you were open to options you'd never considered. That's the exploration that awaits you...not mapping stars and studying nebulae... but charting the unknowable possibilities of existence.
To carry yourself forward and experience myriad things is delusion. That myriad things come forth and experience themselves is awakening. -Dogen Zenji
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JacquesCousteau
Being.
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Posts: 7,825
Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#8708045 - 07/31/08 03:23 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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The kind of choices you are talking about ARE an illusion.
It's not that free will doesn't exist... it's that you're looking in the wrong place.
Free will exists within the concept of resistance and acceptance of the nature of reality. The ONLY choice we have is whether or not we want to experience reality fully through acceptance and therefore surrender resistance.
Now, the funny thing is, there's this weird retroactive system to this where when you realize this you also realize that everything you've done in your life that "felt like a mistake" was actually a result of the absence of awareness of the idea that it is a choice to embrace or deny EVERY experience whether we "like it" in the brain or not.
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Cameron
Too Many Words
Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 4,437
Loc: Canada
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
#8708108 - 07/31/08 03:37 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Now, the funny thing is, there's this weird retroactive system to this where when you realize this you also realize that everything you've done in your life that "felt like a mistake" was actually a result of the absence of awareness of the idea that it is a choice to embrace or deny EVERY experience whether we "like it" in the brain or not.
I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around that concept and how it relates to free will. Much beard stroking to do. 
Quote:
I love your new avatar, btw. And your posts in general.
Thanks, Jacques. I enjoy your input, too. You're wise beyond your years, methinks.
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The_Ghost
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#8708121 - 07/31/08 03:39 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
AlphaFalfa said:
The problem with choice is the following;
I have the choice to eat someones ASS out. Right?
Wrong, I dont, this is why I dont do it.
But you could. You're speaking of universal ideas limited by a single context. If you did have that option, you could choose what to do about it. Whether you do or don't at this moment is irrelevant when it comes do free will in general.
Quote:
The choice is not an option, not because I choose it to be, but because thats the way it exists. My want makes my choice, when I can make my choice, is when I make my want. But even your want to make your want, is still not chosen by you, just expressed.
Huh?.
Quote:
For example, I choose to act on logic instead of previous experience.
Why?
Because i have the free choice to do so?
Nop. We have the experience that enables us to SEE that this choice, is the best to make.
While making a choice we ALWAYS decide through the following question; What is the best choice to make?
Since we always make a decision based on what is the best choice, our will is determined by the knowledge we HAVE in our life....
A choice is a choice is a choice. There isnt always a best outcome.
Quote:
Tieing back to free will - this knowledge is LIMITED.
But Dont get it twisted, I never said that the LIMITS are limited, the limits are endless,
new world after new world, new challenge after new challenge. Live, learn and play.
You're pushing contradictory points here. You speak of how our total gathered knowlege base is limited by its history, yet you emphasize how unlimited it can be - which seems irrelevant since those 'limits' would be limited by your current position on the timeline of your own existence.
Quote:
Ps. By saying the limits are endless, I do not mean that a limit is endless. I mean that the limits we face in life, are always there, always endless. Like overcoming and obstacle and being faced with a new one...limitless limits, limitless limited choices!
Your point being?
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/ / / / / / / LISTEN TO MY MUSIC: E X E D / / / / / / /
The universe gives no fucks. And takes no fucks.
May His Circuits Ever Function
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toastandjam
Tastes Grate, Lesh Philling
Registered: 05/07/06
Posts: 752
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
#8708141 - 07/31/08 03:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
JacquesCousteau said:
Free will exists within the concept of resistance and acceptance of the nature of reality. The ONLY choice we have is whether or not we want to experience reality fully through acceptance and therefore surrender resistance.
I don't mean to deny the existence of an ego, of an "I am", clearly its there, but rather the "I" isn't the pilot-- its a passenger.
Are you kind of saying (if I can continue the analogy) that free will isn't merely passive passenger, but is a navigator at best, saying "Your exit is coming up here \ you missed your exit back there"?
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The_Ghost
ゴースト
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: toastandjam]
#8708152 - 07/31/08 03:45 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Define 'reality' lol.
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/ / / / / / / LISTEN TO MY MUSIC: E X E D / / / / / / /
The universe gives no fucks. And takes no fucks.
May His Circuits Ever Function
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ManianFH
living in perverty
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#8708250 - 07/31/08 04:07 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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there was this study done by some psychologist who theorized that neurons (that allow us to perform actions/thoughts/etc) fire before we prompt them to fire by our own will.
for instance, the thought that I will squeeze my hand comes to me by my own thoughts, but only after the neurons that allow that thought fire independently of my own understanding or knowledge of such a thought appearing. Thus it is the neurons in our heads that dictate our actions, and accordingly there cannot be free will
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notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "
ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."
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AlphaFalfa
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: ManianFH]
#8708263 - 07/31/08 04:12 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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"Free will exists within the concept of resistance and acceptance of the nature of reality. The ONLY choice we have is whether or not we want to experience reality fully through acceptance and therefore surrender resistance."
There are people who cannot conceptualize of acceptance. they know nothing of it, therefore they can't choose it.
Another way to look at it is that we are always deciding what the best choice is.
If this is true, there is no choosing, there is only what is best and this presents itself in reality, it isnt something that we create from nothing.
In short your decisions are based on something and the idea of free-will puts responsibility into the hands of the chooser, as if the chooser's choice is soley based on its choice, when in retrospect its based on what the chooser has learnt through living.
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if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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notapillow
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#8709319 - 07/31/08 08:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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you cant disprove freewill either
trust me on this one, my job used to be to explain this concept to people. like no shit real 9-5 job
its a mystery for a reason
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CokedUpHobit64
Registered: 10/01/07
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: The_Ghost]
#8709346 - 07/31/08 08:34 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
The_Ghost said:
What you're basically saying is because we could technically speaking calculate every possible choice of a given situation, there is a limit to those choices. You are using that logic to state that not being able to make a choice that cant be made == lack of free will.
Your logic is flawed.
A choice is a choice is a choice.
The ability to make that choice is will.
Bingo
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So good to see you, I've missed you so much.
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: sui]
#8709359 - 07/31/08 08:36 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
suimush said:
i think youre thinking a little too into this.
I think he's confusing imagination with choice
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Cameron
Too Many Words
Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 4,437
Loc: Canada
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: notapillow]
#8709377 - 07/31/08 08:41 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
trust me on this one, my job used to be to explain this concept to people. like no shit real 9-5 job
What?!  Please, elaborate. I had no idea there were such jobs.
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it stars saddam
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: notapillow]
#8709397 - 07/31/08 08:44 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
notapillow said:
you cant disprove freewill either
trust me on this one, my job used to be to explain this concept to people.
WOW. I'm convinced.
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MisterMuscaria
Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 27,646
Loc:
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
#8709446 - 07/31/08 08:53 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Free will is an illusion and a hoax, Ive always known that
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notapillow
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: it stars saddam]
#8709527 - 07/31/08 09:09 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
it stars saddam said:
Quote:
notapillow said:
you cant disprove freewill either
trust me on this one, my job used to be to explain this concept to people.
WOW. I'm convinced.
see saddams so easy to work with
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: MisterMuscaria]
#8709533 - 07/31/08 09:10 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterMuscaria said:
Free will is an illusion and a hoax, Ive always known that
Even if free will is just a neurochemical illusion, it still feels damn well "real" enough.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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AlphaFalfa
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: deCypher]
#8709925 - 07/31/08 10:25 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Cypher this is true. I always feel like I do thing, Like I cause my choice. But I think we have to make an important analysis of this logic; a feeling does not nessecarily prove something exists. Many claim to feel gods presence. Many claim to feel like they have a broken heart or are afraid of others whom may have a negative opinion about them, does that mean that these things are real? Possibly, what matters most is the following; does feeling, preceed and justify thought or does though preceed feeling.
This one is difficult, but utlimatly I believe thought preceeds feeling, it is the cause of it. The mere thought that we do have free will, is enough to make it feel like free will exists. Ie. Look I have free will, I can bang my head on the couch. Or Look god exists just look into your heart and feel him.
The most important thing to acknowledge then is that no matter what philosophy we believe there will always be a gap between what we believe and what we feel, both as true and fake. This is something I have a difficult time accepting, DAMN!!!!! Its ironic actually, because its a belief that feeling justifies thought and reality that causes this disturbance. The thought that my reality is not affected by the what beliefs in my mind. Ironic really...haha. O FCUK!!! Its funny because you can laugh about not being able to acknowledge that your feelings are not nessecarily logical, but within your mind there is a logic running that says they are!!! what a wonderfully, painful world we are in, but it cant get much worse now that we know, I just hope my children will experience differently with different upbringings!!!
I just remembered something that really blows free will out of the water; can you choose to choose? If not, then you have no free will. The problem is that when you choose not to choose, you still chose....ackkk, cant escape it.
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if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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NastyDHL
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#8709936 - 07/31/08 10:27 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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sorry, didnt bother reading through the thread to see if anyone else posted this but there was a genius quote from the adult swim show "Xavier: Renegade Angel" (made by the people who did wonder showzen)...the guardian angel xavier once said at the end of an episode, "Free will...man's most potent mirage."
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#8710112 - 07/31/08 11:18 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
AlphaFalfa said:
I just remembered something that really blows free will out of the water; can you choose to choose? If not, then you have no free will. The problem is that when you choose not to choose, you still chose....ackkk, cant escape it.
actually you've just demonstrated that there is free choice
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Noviseer
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: Prisoner#1]
#8710702 - 08/01/08 03:12 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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When I start thinking about free will, I think about the problem of WHO is there to will it? Since the separate self is an illusion created by the brain, then there can be no free will, because will implies a willer.
This is why I hate philosophy.
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_______________________________________________________________
namaste said:
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_________________________________________________________________
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Gumby
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#8710744 - 08/01/08 03:37 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ladies and gentlemen, I think we have our new bivalve. Please tell me some of you remember him.
Kinda similar.
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Ego Death
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#8710914 - 08/01/08 06:30 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Your confusing brain programming and body function with free will.
We are all running on programs we have built up throughout our lives. This makes everything seem automated because in a sense it is.
However, free will still exists. You still have the choice to do as ever you wish. Most people only make those choices based on experience because that seems the logical thing to do.
This is my understand as far as I can comprehend. I don't know the bigger picture in the workings of the universe and nor does anybody else. To say the whole thing is planned is just speculation.
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AlphaFalfa
imagine
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: Ego Death]
#8711240 - 08/01/08 09:27 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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"You still have the choice to do as ever you wish."
This is the problem I wish to bring to light, because most people including me a year ago still had no choice but to believe this, to prove it I simply said "Look I can wave my arm, I have free will" The problem with this is that when we believe all can do whatever all wishes, we forget that all does not understand all that exists to do. Ie. A guy says he wants to travel the world. to him the world consists of 5 countries, china, russia, iran, USA and Isreal, cuz thats all he heres about in the box of knowledge (T.V). When he chooses to travel out of those five choices, his choice is clearly limited to 5 countries, the problem is that if a choice is limited and so is how the will(intention) is directed towards(where he travels) then this man, cannot possibly have free will, because free is defined as unlimited and this guys choice is clearly limited by his experience.
A real life example, is trying to tell a 1 year old to relax when his favortie ice cream falls on the ground. As a one year old, their experience with their emotions and relationship to it, is like a dictatorship, where the emotion is the kids dictator on how it feels. They clearly have no knowledge that they can change their emotions, beyond going to the ice-cream shop and getting another ice-cream, beyond changing their environment and not their internal environment with thought. Because of this it is obvious that telling the kid to relax would amount to nothing because its choice is limited by a lack of knowledge about its emotions.
In summary, it is not that we cannot do what we wish that proves that there is free will or not, it is the fact that our will is limited by what we know is something we can will ourselves to do. And since free, is synonymous with unlimited and our choices and willings are limited by our experience, free will is simply an illusion set forth by the limits of our experience. That is until now!
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if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#8714745 - 08/02/08 01:26 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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He can pick between the 5 countries that he does know. That is choice. Free will can't take you beyond physical boundaries. You can build a ship and goto another planet but you can't just wish and end up there with no method.
In that ice cream example you are talking about emotion. As I said animal emotion and brain programing are different to free will.
Hardly anybody acts on free will that is true because its illogical to just randomly do something without a reason but that doesn't mean free will does not exist. It does exist and every individual has the choice to do what ever they wish.
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