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Lana
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Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel
#8707561 - 07/31/08 01:42 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Thought this was fun!
Lana
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jul/31/energyefficiency.energy
Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel
Scientists have found an inexpensive way to produce hydrogen from water, a discovery that could lead to a plentiful source of environmentally friendly fuel to power homes and cars.
The technique, which mimics the way photosynthesis works in plants, also provides a highly efficient way to store energy, potentially paving the way to making solar power more economically viable.
Hydrogen is a clean, energy-rich fuel that many experts believe could become important as nations attempt to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions. The gas can be produced by splitting water but current techniques are expensive, use harsh chemicals and need carefully controlled environments in which to operate.
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JusListen
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: Lana]
#8707610 - 07/31/08 01:51 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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yeah, the cars are rather tiny, and the generators in the cars are huge.
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="
always wondered about hydrogen too, does it mean your car's a ticking bomb, an when some asshole drunk smash's the whip, would you blow the fuck up?
also, the dude who invented this, stan meyer, way back, something like a decade or more ago, was murdered. conspiracy???
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="
hmmmmm...  >the videos posted twice, I dunno why.
Edited by JusListen (07/31/08 01:54 PM)
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DieCommie


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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: Lana]
#8707638 - 07/31/08 01:56 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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I read the article but I dont understand what they are doing. Are they using the term catalyst correctly in that article?
They probably dont want to explain too much, for patent reasons.
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Seuss
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: DieCommie]
#8707984 - 07/31/08 03:08 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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> Are they using the term catalyst correctly in that article?
I think so, except in one spot. It sounds like, more or less, he made a solar cell that splits water rather than create electricity. When you recombine hydrogen and oxygen, you get water and electricity out. (This is how the space shuttle produces power while in space.) So in the end, his invention not only splits the water into hydrogen and oxygen, but the gasses store the energy until needed, thus no need for batteries (though you do have to store the gasses). Clever.
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: Seuss]
#8708977 - 07/31/08 07:13 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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automan
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#8709360 - 07/31/08 08:36 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Anno
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: Seuss]
#8710944 - 08/01/08 06:56 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > Are they using the term catalyst correctly in that article?
I think so, except in one spot. It sounds like, more or less, he made a solar cell that splits water rather than create electricity. When you recombine hydrogen and oxygen, you get water and electricity out. (This is how the space shuttle produces power while in space.) So in the end, his invention not only splits the water into hydrogen and oxygen, but the gasses store the energy until needed, thus no need for batteries (though you do have to store the gasses). Clever.
What is the news though with this? Electrolysis has been there for decades. Storing gases has been there for decades. Fuel cells for recombining gas to electricity have been there for decades.
What's the news?
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delta9
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: Anno]
#8710967 - 08/01/08 07:11 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Anno said: What is the news though with this? Electrolysis has been there for decades. Storing gases has been there for decades. Fuel cells for recombining gas to electricity have been there for decades.
What's the news?
Standing on the shoulders of giants and putting it all together. That's the news. Did you (or I or anyone here) put it all together? It would appear not. Could you/I/we have? Probably, but other things occupied us.
-------------------- delta9
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Seuss
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: Anno]
#8710975 - 08/01/08 07:14 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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> What's the news?
Efficiency. In the past, the path was: "sunlight -> solar cell -> electricity -> electrolysis -> electricity" With this, the path is: "sunlight -> electrolysis -> electricity".
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Anno
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: Seuss]
#8710990 - 08/01/08 07:22 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: Anno]
#8711243 - 08/01/08 09:28 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think maybe he's invented a cheaper Reversible Fuel Cell/Electrolyzer?
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Seuss
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#8711920 - 08/01/08 12:20 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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> This is not what the video says, see http://newsoffice.techtv.mit.edu/file/1243/
Ooops... you are correct. I was going off of the written story.
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Stonehenge
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: Seuss]
#8713106 - 08/01/08 04:37 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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I say horseshit! There is no cheap way to split water. It always takes energy. You get out what you put in minus losses. Even with no losses at all, you do not get more back than you put in in the first place. It's the law of conservation of matter and energy.
Press releases are to boost the stock so fools will gobble it up. Then the insiders sell at a big profit. Later, it's revealed the car is a long long way from production and the bottom drops out.
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zouden
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: Stonehenge]
#8713297 - 08/01/08 05:33 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
There is no cheap way to split water. It always takes energy.
"cheap" doesn't mean "free".
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Stonehenge
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: zouden]
#8716830 - 08/02/08 03:48 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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zouden, you get out what you put in. No free lunch, no energy bonus from splitting water.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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zouden
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: Stonehenge]
#8717458 - 08/02/08 06:20 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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That's right, which is why you can still have a cheap way to split water.
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sleepy
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: Stonehenge]
#8722191 - 08/04/08 12:05 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: I say horseshit! There is no cheap way to split water. It always takes energy. You get out what you put in minus losses. Even with no losses at all, you do not get more back than you put in in the first place. It's the law of conservation of matter and energy.
yeah but its running on sunpower, "we" don't put in energy, the Sun does... therefore we just need to set up the system and it runs itself with sunlight (photons, etc being the "trigger" energy)
i bet in 20 years most cars will run on this
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thepaintingaccid
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: sleepy]
#8722582 - 08/04/08 02:12 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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there are far better alternatives that are readily available now than hydrogen fuel cells. Electric cars have already been developed to the point where it rivals and surpasses the performance and capabilities of gas powered vehicles. The problem is all the big hands and money holders support the energy infrastructure we already have. As for the energy supplied by the sun we receive more than we would need each day the problem is the level of our technology to capture that energy efficiently. And yes energy/mass cannot be created or destroyed but in sense it is free because we don't supply it nor do we put any effort into supplying the energy from the sun we just need an efficient way of capturing it.
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zouden
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: thepaintingaccid]
#8722754 - 08/04/08 03:35 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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We also need an efficient way to store it. At the moment batteries are slightly better than hydrogen but if the hydride storage tank comes to fruition, hydrogen will become a far better alternative to batteries. Just as many companies are investing in all-electric systems as are investing in hydrogen systems. So it could go either way...
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thepaintingaccid
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: zouden]
#8722764 - 08/04/08 03:47 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well we already have the technology in batteries to hold a charge for a vehicle ranging in the several hundreds of miles per charge. As compared to hydrogen which is still in its research stages. With electric vehicles we have the ability to use and modify simply the existing energy infrastructure as compared to hydrogen in which we'll need to spend billions upon billions to establish something remotely to what we have today in petrol. And if you take safety into account I still believe that batteries as opposed to hydrogen tanks or gasoline tanks is a far safer bet. Its ridiculous how few people know of gm's ev1 which was a big success until they pulled them off the line and destroyed them. But hey
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zouden
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: thepaintingaccid]
#8722770 - 08/04/08 03:52 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Agreed. But on the other hand, batteries take longer to charge than hydrogen, and have limited lifetimes.
Personally I think biodiesel is the way to go, because it requires absolutely no modification to the distribution infrastructure and we have millions of diesel cars and trucks already on the road.
I used to work on hydrogen production as an alternative fuel, but now I firmly believe biodiesel is superior.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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thepaintingaccid
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: zouden]
#8722831 - 08/04/08 04:38 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well that also depends on what form of biodiesel. Ethanol is one of our worst blunders to date. And i do agree that batteries have a limited lifetime and take longer to charge than to refill a tank but with batteries a new infrastructure isn't needed and people have the option and capability to plug into any wall outlet. with the technology available today a single full charge could run you 3-500 miles before recharging. Sounds good to me. Ultimately we need to improve our methods of obtaining renewable energy such as solar and wind power that way we won't be relying on something finite(in our lifetime) and lessen the impact on the environment.
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DieCommie


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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: thepaintingaccid]
#8723904 - 08/04/08 12:03 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
thepaintingaccid said: Electric cars have already been developed to the point where it rivals and surpasses the performance and capabilities of gas powered vehicles.
Do you have a link to this electric car that rivals and surpasses the performance and capabilities of gas powered vehicles? Youre not talking about the tesla roadster are you?
Quote:
zouden said: At the moment batteries are slightly better than hydrogen but if the hydride storage tank comes to fruition, hydrogen will become a far better alternative to batteries.
Is this hydride storage tank a solid state thing? Do you have a link to anything about this?
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zouden
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: DieCommie]
#8725200 - 08/04/08 04:03 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm sure I can dig something up (I'm getting ready for work now). Basically rather than just compressing the hydrogen into a tank, they put a metallic 'foam' into the tank, which provides a large surface area for the hydrogen to cling too. The tank can then hold more hydrogen with less pressure.
The way I see it, without this technology, we can't store hydrogen with comparable energy density to gasoline. Compressing it into a tank is extremely energy-expensive (and makes the tanks more dangerous).
Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_hydride there's an even better article that lists the various technologies. None are really good enough yet. But the article describes what they need to be 'good enough'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
Edited by zouden (08/04/08 04:48 PM)
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thepaintingaccid
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: zouden]
#8726253 - 08/04/08 08:04 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm not referring to the Tesla electric vehicle but am saying the technology is already here. We have adequate electric motors that perform and batteries that hold charges equaling hundreds of miles driving. We have the technology we just need to improve the way we obtain electricity from renewable energies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F
And yah I don't see hydrogen as a better option because of the hurdles we have to jump when we could go a more direct route w/ pure electric.
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DieCommie


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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: thepaintingaccid]
#8726435 - 08/04/08 08:39 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Come on man... I didnt ask for a wikipedia article about that old movie...
I assume you know of no car that rivals and surpasses the performance and capabilities of gas powered vehicles?
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thepaintingaccid
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: DieCommie]
#8727319 - 08/05/08 12:52 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yah man i understand. I didn't search the www for an article but that movie shows that the technology is available for use now. And it is being implemented in some vehicles already w/ all electric modifications. I just don't see the use in researching hydrogen when we can go strait to electricity. Its far simpler. Renewable energy - batteries - electric motors. And the infrastructure for electricity is already available.
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johnm214



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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: DieCommie]
#8727336 - 08/05/08 01:02 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: Come on man... I didnt ask for a wikipedia article about that old movie...
I assume you know of no car that rivals and surpasses the performance and capabilities of gas powered vehicles?
unfortunatly it appears so
{Step 1. Incredible Claim
Step 2. Challenge
Step 3. Youtube link which explains nothing but makes wild claims (wikipedia in this case)
Step 4. }
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thepaintingaccid
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: johnm214]
#8727397 - 08/05/08 01:29 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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ahh but you should add some input as well rather than just burn me.
Heres a link with a little quick searching http://www.eptrail.com/news/2008/aug/01/charging-ahead-will-your-next-car-be-electric/
It seams toyota has been leasing to select individuals since 2001 rav4 ev. Which are all electric mini suvs. Speeds up to 80mph and no recharge up to 100 miles. Consider that she leased it in 2001. The technology is here in the now.
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zouden
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: thepaintingaccid]
#8727406 - 08/05/08 01:33 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Which is why I find it strange that so many companies (not sure about Toyota but definitely Mercedes-Benz) are investigating hydrogen power. They must have done studies that convinced them that hydrogen will eventually be superior to batteries. Or else they'd focus all their efforts on electric cars.
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thepaintingaccid
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: zouden]
#8727420 - 08/05/08 01:41 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well the electric car poses as a threat to major automotive companies because a large part of their profits come from the maintenance of their vehicles. Hydrogen fuel cells in theory could provide vasts amount of energy w/ only h20 as the byproduct but is far more complicated. Which is why big companies are backing the research. It allows more product to be sold (think a combustion motor), more to maintain, and is more marketable green wise. This is more my own theory as to why but i still see the simplicity in all electric.
It's definitely a good discussion topic
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makaveli8x8
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: thepaintingaccid]
#8728488 - 08/05/08 11:09 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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someone mentioned the explosion when a hydrogen car gets wrecked, what about the battery acid from all the batterys?
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thepaintingaccid
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Re: Cheap way to 'split water' could lead to abundant clean fuel [Re: makaveli8x8]
#8729433 - 08/05/08 02:46 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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They've developed/developing lithium ion batteries that don't react violently when torn open. I think they mention it in the article.
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