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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Innovation + Morality....Vs....The War Machine....
    #8699085 - 07/29/08 07:29 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

There have been quite a few well known past Engineers, Physicists, and Scientists that have come up with some very novel ideas that have changed the world....

For example, Alberto Santos Dumont was an aviator back in the day before there was "aviation", and made new novel working balloons and plane-like machines....
He refused to patent any of his ideas because he believed that his concepts should be given freely to everyone for the betterment of mankind's travels....
Reality; he was still alive to witness planes used in war to kill people....

Then you have Albert Einstein's E-MC2 and the whole nuke situation.....


So, this brings me to a simple question....
What is an innovative person with morals to do when they come up with an idea that could change the world for the better,
but also having the foresight to understand that this idea could (and most likely WILL) also be turned around in a way to harm a whole lot of people.....?

Seems like a moral dilemma, as it doesn't really matter what the intentions of the inventor may be for his invention,
but more so to do with the intentions of the worst common denominator - the war mind....    :frown:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Innovation + Morality....Vs....The War Machine.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #8699270 - 07/29/08 08:14 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I would never share such an idea with humans. Never never never.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Innovation + Morality....Vs....The War Machine.... [Re: Icelander]
    #8699287 - 07/29/08 08:19 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Would you share such an idea with a cat.....?    :grin:    :tongue:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Innovation + Morality....Vs....The War Machine.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #8699289 - 07/29/08 08:19 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Sure, if they paid me.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Innovation + Morality....Vs....The War Machine.... [Re: Icelander]
    #8699353 - 07/29/08 08:35 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Two mices and a birdy....?   


One of the "problem" with Engineering/Scientific/Technological innovations, is that there are usually other people on the brink of the discovery/innovation....
Once a "problem" is identified, it is only a matter of time before someone comes up with an innovative solution for it....
They say that had Einstein NOT come up with his famous formula, other physicists would have most likely cracked the code within the year....

"You can't stop what's coming"....
But sometimes, I guess, you can delay it some....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Innovation + Morality....Vs....The War Machine.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #8699368 - 07/29/08 08:39 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

"There's no way to delay that trouble coming every day" -Frank Zappa

I guess that's true. However I would rather not be responsible for that trouble. For purely personal reasons.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Innovation + Morality....Vs....The War Machine.... [Re: Icelander]
    #8699423 - 07/29/08 08:51 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Yes sir, I understand those reasons, and I think that I have to agree with you....
It is a saddening conundrum to be in a situation of discovering a means of "great" human improvement,
knowing that it would immediately be twisted into the opposite....

I guess we call this "progress" - well, at least in a technological sense....

It can make for a whole lot of questioning one's faith in what it is to be human....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Innovation + Morality....Vs....The War Machine.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #8701218 - 07/30/08 08:26 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

It can make for a whole lot of questioning one's faith in what it is to be human....

This is what I have had to do also. The answers were far removed from my wishful and hopeful desires. Yet it isn't all black.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Innovation + Morality....Vs....The War Machine.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #8701537 - 07/30/08 10:28 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Morality is the major cause of the war machine.

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Offlineclearsight
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Re: Innovation + Morality....Vs....The War Machine.... [Re: daytripper23]
    #8702231 - 07/30/08 01:10 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

one has to believe in the existence of collective intelligence?  :undecided:

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Innovation + Morality....Vs....The War Machine.... [Re: clearsight]
    #8702951 - 07/30/08 03:33 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

one has to believe in the existence of collective intelligence?  :undecided:




True, but this does not mean morality is necessary.

The idea of human rights is arguably a good one, and for good reason, but the idea that this is sacred, or somehow inherent of nature is delusion. This delusion of the sacred, inalienable rights, is fundamental to American political-philosophy, and it is why our government so often feels it has an obligation to "free" the rest of humanity - Always for "justice". 

Jean-Jacques Rousseau proposed a similar idea to human rights, in his book the social contract.

From Wikipedia:

Quote:

"The Social Contract"

Perhaps Rousseau's most important work is The Social Contract, which outlines the basis for a legitimate political order. Published in 1762, it became one of the most influential works of political philosophy in the Western tradition. It developed some of the ideas mentioned in an earlier work, the article Economie Politique, featured in Diderot's Encyclopédie. The treatise begins with the dramatic opening lines, "Man is born free, and everywhere he is in chains. One man thinks himself the master of others, but remains more of a slave than they." Rousseau claimed that the state of nature was a primitive condition without law or morality, which human beings left for the benefits and necessity of cooperation. As society developed, division of labour and private property required the human race to adopt institutions of law. In the degenerate phase of society, man is prone to be in frequent competition with his fellow men while at the same time becoming increasingly dependent on them. This double pressure threatens both his survival and his freedom. According to Rousseau, by joining together through the social contract and abandoning their claims of natural right, individuals can both preserve themselves and remain free. This is because submission to the authority of the general will of the people as a whole guarantees individuals against being subordinated to the wills of others and also ensures that they obey themselves because they are, collectively, the authors of the law.




I agree with this idea, we should not falsely substantiate ourselves by claiming natural rights. How can we actually believe our government secular, when such a claim is fundamental to our political philosophy? The government MUST be secular, and until then, politicians can exploit this false substantiation through their rhetoric, to get anything they please.

Alternatively, a non-dogmatic basis would be of art, and for the sake of art. If the population would plant its roots in a philosophy of aesthetic hedonism, it would find that eventually, what we might ordinarily call "good morals" is implied by "good art". And while a social contract is of course necessary, it should be explicitly known as exactly that - a contract, not the American bible.

Edited by daytripper23 (07/30/08 03:49 PM)

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Innovation + Morality....Vs....The War Machine.... [Re: daytripper23]
    #8704866 - 07/30/08 10:36 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Morality is the major cause of the war machine.




Fear and politics (and the fear of those politics being overturned) are some of the major causes of the war machine, IMO....    :shrug:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Innovation + Morality....Vs....The War Machine.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #8705401 - 07/31/08 12:16 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Well yea, exactly.

There are probably no two words better fit to describe morality than fear and politics.

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OfflineKada
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Re: Innovation + Morality....Vs....The War Machine.... [Re: clearsight]
    #8705501 - 07/31/08 12:43 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

War is about one thing, and that is dominance. For whatever reasons you have, to dominate is a natural feeling. Animals feel the need to dominate over each other for one reason or another, and humans are no exception. We may have awareness greater than that of a animal, but that is what also gives us the skills to create things as harmful as atomic bombs. When you mix the need to dominate and awarness, you get nothing but evil. That is one thing humans get out of the deal, the ability to commit evil acts. Thats not the only thing we get, but it is the most destructive. As a species we are capable of so much more, yet we can't seem to get past it.


--------------------
~The Cultivators Motherload~

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them.
I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." -Robert A. Heinlein

"There is no need for temples, no need for complicated philosophies.
My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness."-Dalai Lama

Live long and prosper.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Innovation + Morality....Vs....The War Machine.... [Re: daytripper23]
    #8706351 - 07/31/08 07:57 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Morality is the major cause of the war machine.




I disagree. I believe the root cause to be fear.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineLion
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Re: Innovation + Morality....Vs....The War Machine.... [Re: Icelander]
    #8706399 - 07/31/08 08:27 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Would you agree that morality is a product of fear?

And what is the root cause of fear? :sherlock:


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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