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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: All your radical ideas about philosophy, spirituality, and life have already occurred to others. [Re: clearsight]
    #8696963 - 07/29/08 11:27 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Hey, you're fucking up this thread.:lol::thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,062
Re: All your radical ideas about philosophy, spirituality, and life have already occurred to others. [Re: deCypher]
    #8697262 - 07/29/08 12:30 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

My wife is a designer.
she actually cannot look at anything without tons of attitude, measuring attributes and sensing if they "taste" right.
it is exhausting for her, it is her identity, and it makes what she does that much more intense.

I mention this because what you have in your mind is never just the words or the image or the sound and what that means, but also who you are and all the aggregate history that goes into your attitude and viewpoint.

you never do step in the same stream twice, but if you need to think you do, I hope it helps improve the world in some way.
It would be a shame to become exhausted for nothing.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Offlineclearsight
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Registered: 06/25/08
Posts: 97
Loc: London
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: All your radical ideas about philosophy, spirituality, and life have already occurred to others. [Re: Icelander]
    #8697304 - 07/29/08 12:40 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

:blush: not used to!  :justdontknow:

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Offlineclearsight
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Registered: 06/25/08
Posts: 97
Loc: London
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: All your radical ideas about philosophy, spirituality, and life have already occurred to others. [Re: deCypher]
    #8697332 - 07/29/08 12:49 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Originality is an illusion;




I agree  :handth: People say they are self-conscious, they are their own self and are special. BS, it is obvious that we are all the same self. The famous "I" is nothing of a deja vu ... people should stop thinking they are original because they are "I". Everyone is "I" and "I" is worth nothing in the real physical world.

Sounds better like this? :rofl2:

Edited by clearsight (07/29/08 12:53 PM)

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: All your radical ideas about philosophy, spirituality, and life have already occurred to others. [Re: deCypher]
    #8697439 - 07/29/08 01:12 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

You should study modern philosophy.

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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: All your radical ideas about philosophy, spirituality, and life have already occurred to others. [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8697460 - 07/29/08 01:18 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Why?  Is there a sentence hidden away in a modern philosophy book that will change everything we've ever known?

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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
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Re: All your radical ideas about philosophy, spirituality, and life have already occurred to others. [Re: deCypher]
    #8697759 - 07/29/08 02:28 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

yet simultaneously we debate them in an online forum that seems destined to proclaim a single idea the victor out of many.




Oh really? :shocked:  I was not aware of this.

Not all of us see this forum as a 'competition of ideas'.  I am not trying to pummel other people into agreeing with me, I am not looking for The Answer.  I come here to be entertained, to connect with people who like to talk about the same things, to share my ideas, and sometimes even listen to what other people say :lol:

And what difference does it make to me if someone else discovered something centuries ago, if I don't know about it yet?  Am I supposed to know it all by now?  Was the airplane more useful to Orville Wright than it is to me?  Is it even remotely the same thing today, just a hundred years later? 

The last 2500 years of philosophy is NOT just a few central ideas in different forms... it's an ocean of ideas and interpretations, and no single person ever knew it all, not even close.  There's plenty to discover, always.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: All your radical ideas about philosophy, spirituality, and life have already occurred to others. [Re: clearsight]
    #8697891 - 07/29/08 02:51 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

clearsight said:
Quote:

The Cypher said:
All your radical ideas about philosophy, spirituality, and life have already occurred to others.  Originality is an illusion;




The history of science tells us the opposite. Words are the results of ideas. As new ideas appears, new words are created to refers to these ideas.




I addressed this in my second post:

Quote:

The Cypher said:  Even the counter-argument that languages evolve and add words (thus constantly increasing the available vocabulary used to formulate ideas) fails to eliminate this dilemma, as the rate at which books, papers, and posts are published far exceeds the rate at which new words are added to the common language.  Invariably there is or is going to be no new philosophical content under the sun, and if you pair this futility with the fact that no philosophical questions have truly been answered since their first asking, there seems to be no point at all in philosophical debate.




Quote:

redgreenvines said:  I mention this because what you have in your mind is never just the words or the image or the sound and what that means, but also who you are and all the aggregate history that goes into your attitude and viewpoint.




Yes, I agree with this.  But my original point was referring to the written communication of these ideas, and the inevitable condensation of your personal identity, background history, mood and feeling at the time, and cluster of ideas into a stream of words a la message board post guarantees a finite representation of your idea, and consequently the inevitable exhaustion of originality.

Quote:

WhiskeyClone said:  Not all of us see this forum as a 'competition of ideas'.




If you're looking to this forum for intellectual conversation or a means of shooting the proverbial shit with like-minded people, then sure.  But the concept of a philosophical debate forum is such that it demands looking critically at ideas and offering arguments in favor or against them.  The rules themselves stipulate:

Quote:

If you choose to post in this forum be prepared to have your ideas and opinions challenged, refuted, disputed, rebutted, analyzed, shredded, pooh-poohed, and yes - even supported. If having your beliefs, opinions, and positions scrutinized critically makes you uncomfortable, this is not the forum for you.




By the end of a discussion thread, an idea has either successfully withstood all counter-arguments put up to it, or it has not--in this sense I mean that an online forum is destined to proclaim a single idea the victor out of many.  And if no philosophical questions are truly resolvable (as seems to be the case), then debate in this fashion seems only to improve our persuasive writing skills at the expense of true ideas.

I'm not arguing that philosophical contemplation is futile, as this is perhaps the only way that we can truly know who we are and mature as a developing human being.  But debate, being a skill that requires us to condense ideas into finite words where far too much has already been said on the topic, seems altogether pointless.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Posts: 16,509
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Re: All your radical ideas about philosophy, spirituality, and life have already occurred to others. [Re: deCypher]
    #8698029 - 07/29/08 03:14 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


I'm not arguing that philosophical contemplation is futile, as this is perhaps the only way that we can truly know who we are and mature as a developing human being.  But debate, being a skill that requires us to condense ideas into finite words where far too much has already been said on the topic, seems altogether pointless.




Well I agree with you.  I guess I just wasn't looking for conclusive debates in this forum.  To that end, I think it is pointless.  IMO, most debate is not some co-operative search for truth, it is a personal search for recognition and ego fulfillment.  Some people actually call this 'the debate forum'; it has never been that to me, even though I get caught up in arguments here and there.  Honestly I just come here because I enjoy it.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Offlineclearsight
Stranger
Registered: 06/25/08
Posts: 97
Loc: London
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: All your radical ideas about philosophy, spirituality, and life have already occurred to others. [Re: deCypher]
    #8698030 - 07/29/08 03:14 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Invariably there is or is going to be no new philosophical content under the sun, and if you pair this futility with the fact that no philosophical questions have truly been answered since their first asking, there seems to be no point at all in philosophical debate.




Of course, there is no definitive answer to philosophical questions. If there was, it would be mathematics with well defined objects and group theory. That does not make thinking about it less worthwhile.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: All your radical ideas about philosophy, spirituality, and life have already occurred to others. [Re: clearsight]
    #8698055 - 07/29/08 03:19 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Mathematics of philosophy:

Me + basic needs met + interesting activities + rational approach + patience + pleasure = happy.

:smile:

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Offlinenumonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!

Registered: 04/12/06
Posts: 2,500
Loc: A Tree
Last seen: 7 years, 14 days
Re: All your radical ideas about philosophy, spirituality, and life have already occurred to others. [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8698064 - 07/29/08 03:21 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

WhiskeyClone said:
Quote:

yet simultaneously we debate them in an online forum that seems destined to proclaim a single idea the victor out of many.




Oh really? :shocked:  I was not aware of this.

Not all of us see this forum as a 'competition of ideas'.  I am not trying to pummel other people into agreeing with me, I am not looking for The Answer.  I come here to be entertained, to connect with people who like to talk about the same things, to share my ideas, and sometimes even listen to what other people say :lol:

And what difference does it make to me if someone else discovered something centuries ago, if I don't know about it yet?  Am I supposed to know it all by now?  Was the airplane more useful to Orville Wright than it is to me?  Is it even remotely the same thing today, just a hundred years later? 

The last 2500 years of philosophy is NOT just a few central ideas in different forms... it's an ocean of ideas and interpretations, and no single person ever knew it all, not even close.  There's plenty to discover, always.




:thumbup:

Why the fuck else exist at all?


~Monk

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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
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Re: All your radical ideas about philosophy, spirituality, and life have already occurred to others. [Re: Veritas]
    #8698091 - 07/29/08 03:26 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Mathematics of philosophy:

Me + basic needs met + interesting activities + rational approach + patience + pleasure = happy.






Instructions:

1) Define the variable 'Me'

2) Solve for 'happy'

:tongue:


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: All your radical ideas about philosophy, spirituality, and life have already occurred to others. [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8698123 - 07/29/08 03:31 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, "know thyself" is definitely a pre-requisite for upper division mathematics of philosophy.  :lol:

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc: Flag
Re: All your radical ideas about philosophy, spirituality, and life have already occurred to others. [Re: Veritas]
    #8698154 - 07/29/08 03:37 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

WhiskeyClone said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
Mathematics of philosophy:

Me + basic needs met + interesting activities + rational approach + patience + pleasure = happy.






Instructions:

1) Define the variable 'Me'

2) Solve for 'happy'

:tongue:




Define happy, and we should be able to flex a little philosophical algebra to solve for "me".


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Invisiblepsyillyazul
verbal doubleedged sword BFTD

Registered: 12/13/04
Posts: 412
Loc: zion
Re: All your radical ideas about philosophy, spirituality, and life have already occurred to others. [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8698211 - 07/29/08 03:48 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
Quote:

WhiskeyClone said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
Mathematics of philosophy:

Me + basic needs met + interesting activities + rational approach + patience + pleasure = happy.






Instructions:

1) Define the variable 'Me'

2) Solve for 'happy'

:tongue:




Define happy, and we should be able to flex a little philosophical algebra to solve for "me".




Then its just mean, median, mode...  And yer all set.:thumbup:

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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: All your radical ideas about philosophy, spirituality, and life have already occurred to others. [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8698705 - 07/29/08 05:51 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah you can do it that way too


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: All your radical ideas about philosophy, spirituality, and life have already occurred to others. [Re: Veritas]
    #8698876 - 07/29/08 06:32 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Yes, "know thyself" is definitely a pre-requisite for upper division mathematics of philosophy.  :lol:




I've always been of the opinion that Socrates had it wrong--it's actually the examined life that isn't worth living. :P


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: All your radical ideas about philosophy, spirituality, and life have already occurred to others. [Re: deCypher]
    #8698900 - 07/29/08 06:39 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

:lol: Depends on how that examination takes place.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinethe_conservatarian
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Registered: 08/28/09
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Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
Re: All your radical ideas about philosophy, spirituality, and life have already occurred to others. [Re: deCypher]
    #10964606 - 08/30/09 03:21 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Every individual perceives a unique experience. You seem to argue that everything is the same and every experience has already been done. Any expression from an individual is simply a re-hash of another, older experience. Can you think of something that hasn't been done in the last 2,500 years? Now you've done it!

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