|
daytripper23
?
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
|
hallucinogens - Meditation
#8694168 - 07/28/08 08:11 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
This is a question that I have always paid attention to in these forums, but I am still not sure exactly what I want to ask in this thread, or how I should ask.
What I want to know, is your opinion on the relationship between hallucinogens and meditation. I am especially curious about hallucinogens while meditating, but I think that limiting the scope of interplay to that would probably be a mistake.
I want to make a poll eventually, but I am not sure the exact question to ask, or what options there should be. I guess for now, help me elaborate.
Its pretty darn complicated to describe this particular philosophy I know. I have seen through many "truths" about the necessary seperation of the two, to realize that much of this attitude is no different than the typical ignorance and taboo created by society. But I have also heard many people I would consider wise say the same thing.
Anyways excuse my attempts to actually philosophize, I realize I am a bit of an amateur to meditation so I don't want to say to much. Just trying to get things kick started. Im probably gonna sit back and listen for the most part on this one, but I will be thinking of ideas for a good poll. If you have any ideas for the questionaire, Id like to hear these because establishing the correct context is crucial. I think this is an important topic for many of us, so lets try to get the most out of this one.
|
Rose
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
|
Re: hallucinogens - Meditation [Re: daytripper23]
#8694272 - 07/28/08 08:27 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
IME, meditation is quite helpful while tripping... in order to achieve certain desired results.
Meditation, by giving you something to focus on... can ease the mind fuck and body build during come up and come down.
Meditation can set you up for a nice, Learyesque ego-loss psychedelic experience... results may vary.
Meditation (and pot, I've found) can really increase the visuals.
Aside from that... nothing else comes to mind. Meditation is helpful for some things... but it is not the be all and end all. There are many ways to trip.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
|
Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 6 days, 15 hours
|
Re: hallucinogens - Meditation [Re: daytripper23]
#8694287 - 07/28/08 08:30 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I am a beginner to both. Almost always I sit a little bit before taking psychedelics, and if it's a trip that leaves me feeling very confused it usually prompts me to sit more and turn inward more than usual.
Sitting on psychedelics feels natural to me. Buddhism describes our natural state as one of spaciousness and deep calm, and as psychedelics make one more aware of boundaries and less rigid in defining them and keeping them in place, they can take one more deeply into spaciousness, to the point where one feels oneself expanding outward and inward so to speak - being more without doing or thinking more.
Here's a great trip/meditation report if you're interested: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6126749#6126749
This is definitely an important topic to me. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here; it's good to experiment with the whole process.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
|
frushi
Stranger
Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 53
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
|
Re: hallucinogens - Meditation [Re: daytripper23]
#8694329 - 07/28/08 08:38 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Wheeoo!
I have thought about the same thing...meditation and tripping as a joined force. However, my idea of meditation is vague. I think meditation can happen in a number of ways.
Can tripping really bring you answers anyway? There is so much going on chemically that, while many a revelation has been had while tripping, is what occurs while tripping truly meaningful or valid, or is it all about how we interpret what we encounter? After all, our moods and states of mind affect the trip so much that perhaps what we are seeking is already in there anyway, only magnified by the drug (or whatever you choose to call it).
My final questions: If meditation aims to still the mind, would hallucinogens then defeat that purpose (I'd hardly say my mind is still while in that state)?
|
demiu5
humans, lol
Registered: 08/18/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium
|
Re: hallucinogens - Meditation [Re: daytripper23]
#8694613 - 07/28/08 09:21 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
while i'm still unsure about meditation, some of the deepest, most relaxed states my mind has ever reached, when no thoughts were coming or going, have been on high doses of lsd, specifically when i have become so high that i can't fathom or react to whatever may be going on around me. this state has never lasted for more than a few hours, and it's always a surprise, and refreshing, to "come to"
-------------------- channel your inner Larry David
|
deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
|
Re: hallucinogens - Meditation [Re: daytripper23]
#8695164 - 07/28/08 10:52 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
hallucinogens help to increase my understanding of meditation and how it works.
meditation increases my understanding of how psychedelics work.
but anyone can meditate, and doing it "whenever" will not prove its effectiveness. ime it has to be practiced every day, and properly, to reap the benefits and truly understand how it works.
until this breakthrough occurs, it will hardly be effective. but when it does occur, you can enter a state of meditation before a psychedelic trip, and it will have a completely new depth.
this house is noisy... not much has been getting done.
the relationship between the two, is that both can distance one from the conditioned mind.
|
deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
|
Re: hallucinogens - Meditation [Re: Lion]
#8695341 - 07/28/08 11:33 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Lion said: I am a beginner to both.
always
|
dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
|
Re: hallucinogens - Meditation [Re: daytripper23]
#8695349 - 07/28/08 11:35 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
There is no one easy, absolute answer to the relationship between the two. It totally depends on who you ask and the circumstances (both when you ask and of the psychedelic experience itself). Most Buddhist meditation teachers agree that psychedelics don't have much value on the path, and that they in fact can hinder a lot of opening and growth.
On the other hand, there are other teachers who say that psychedelics have the potential to be quite valuable, IF they are used 'properly'.
In my own opinion, psychedelics do have some value, but probably not as much as most around here would give them. They can be useful in opening doors and bringing people to a path, but they can also just as easily be used as toys: simple intoxicants, like alcohol with trippy colors and visual effects.
Their true value lies, I think, in their ability to illumine the mind and bring loving-kindness to our experience. This clarity and kindness are both two central parts of the meditative path. However, using psychedelics in this almost medicinal way requires an attention to one's set and setting and preparation that simply does not seem to be found easily in a purely recreational trip. When the psychedelic 'gurus' and doctors spoke of tripping lying down with music and a blindfold, alone or with a trusted guide, I don't think they were kidding.
So yes, I think there can be some limited value in psychedelics, but the same potential for clarity and kindness exists without needing to trip. Some people can spend decades in devout meditation without really any openings or growth, and some people can have hundreds of psychedelic experiences without learning much of anything about themselves or the world. I suspect that what fruit your efforts yield depends on what seeds you plant and how or even if you nourish them.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
|
it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
|
Re: hallucinogens - Meditation [Re: daytripper23]
#8695472 - 07/29/08 12:11 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I forget where I originally heard this, but meditation is like climbing to the top of the mountain of enlightenment, while psychedelics are like driving there. I've found that tripping regularly has noticably enhanced my meditation experiences. It seems that it has become easier for me to get right into that desired state of mind.
I'd also like to add that I don't recommend meditating while under the influence of psychedelics. This time would be better spent just getting out there and experiencing reality. As for a drug that can effectively supplement meditation, I suggest marijuana, but don't become dependent on it.
Edited by it stars saddam (07/29/08 12:59 AM)
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,009
|
|
it's a great topic everyone's preconceived notions come together at the edge of the well of possibilities.
then what?
-------------------- _ 🧠 _
|
deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
|
|
then what?
*awaits rgv's preconceived notions*
Edited by SyntheticMInd (07/29/08 02:56 AM)
|
Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
|
Re: hallucinogens - Meditation [Re: deranger]
#8696072 - 07/29/08 05:56 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Since taking shrooms i hallucenate alot during meditation, ive found that shroms & meditation are two things that go together very well. Meditating during a trip is a necessity for me, even ifits only for ten minutes.
"I'd also like to add that I don't recommend meditating while under the influence of psychedelics. This time would be better spent just getting out there and experiencing reality"
Whats reality? The outside world? So you think it would be better to look at all the things we normally do instead of looking within? Shrooms make you look within, thats why they are so amzing, because the door between outer/inner (ego) is temporarily dissolved. I would totally recommend meditating while tripping, to experience reality. Id also recommend looking within all day everyday. Keep bringing focus back to inner. The inner is reality because its always the same, the outer is an illusion, it only appears real because your looking out & identify with it.
Theres a theory that the ancient yogi's were trying to recreate/perpetuate shroom experiences through yoga practices like meditation. Ram Dass spoke on this...
When i fall into pure witnessing in meditation its pretty much the same as when i trip, the hallucenations are actually more intense, i get amazing hallucenations, seriously amazing, probably because i dont even want them! Whether this is because ive tripped so much in the past or its just the same 'state' i dont know, either way im happy that i can 'tune into' the same state that shrooms give me, without even taking shrooms!
--------------------
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
|
Re: hallucinogens - Meditation [Re: daytripper23]
#8696273 - 07/29/08 07:45 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
My question to you firstly, is why do you you the term "hallucinogen" that is perjoratively used by the medical and legal establishments? Words are extraordinary vehicles of meaning, and the word 'psychedelic' (mind-manifesting) or 'entheogen' (generating God within) are not only positive terms for 'sacred substances,' but the use of these words yourself might halfway answer your own question. If your mind-set is derived from a pathological model (e.g., there are no recognized legitimate uses for Schedule 1 "hallucinogens") then you're already creating a widening gulf between the established medical-legal model and your own intimations of spirituality.
Please consider the music of Jerry Garcia and Robert Hunter, the poetry of Gary Schneider, the paintings of Alex Grey, the literature of Aldous Huxley, the medicine of Andrew Weil, the philosophy of Huston Smith, the psychology of Tim Leary and the religion of Ram Dass as examples of whether 'sacred substances' have bearing on meditation. These individuals' contributions all attest to the remarkable fruits of their psychedelic meditations.
Peace, -MtG
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
|
|
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Please consider the music of Jerry Garcia and Robert Hunter, the poetry of Gary Schneider, the paintings of Alex Grey, the literature of Aldous Huxley, the medicine of Andrew Weil, the philosophy of Huston Smith, the psychology of Tim Leary and the religion of Ram Dass as examples of whether 'sacred substances' have bearing on meditation. These individuals' contributions all attest to the remarkable fruits of their psychedelic meditations.
Peace, -MtG
I just bought Huxleys "the doors of perception" im looking forward to it...
Ram Dass is the man i really gotta pick up my copy of "paths to god" id also love to see some videos of hims giving satsang but i cant find many....the psychedelic experience is a good book too im reading that right now for the third time. At the end of the day they are natural substances that expand our minds to leave the possibility of a higher truth entering our lives, this to me is a fact & cant be disputed apart by saying "you got proof?", well yeah, take a gram & meditate for half an hour, thats the proof right there!
--------------------
|
Djoum
Psy-student
Registered: 06/22/08
Posts: 57
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
|
Re: hallucinogens - Meditation [Re: deranger]
#8696327 - 07/29/08 08:10 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Hi DayTripper!
Sorry it is all so long and at times ramblingly ‘aside-ish’; the Arts student in me demands it. FOR THOSE WHO WOULD PREFER TO SCAN, FEEL FREE TO CONFINE YOURSELF TO THE CAPITAL LETTERS. I’m writing this in word so capitals are just easiest for me to highlight as I go. Alternatively, skip to the section “MEDITATION AND PSYCHEDELICS”. The rest may be of interest to some, and so, it remains unedited. Maybe it will help with DT’s poll.
Consider all of the below to be preceded by a big IMHO.
Cervantes is right, meditation is not the be all and end all, and there are other ways to trip. However, I am a 'true-believer' when it comes to meditation and psychedelics. I think that done right, they have the ability to complement each other almost perfectly. Combining the two, I have experienced far greater benefits, and experiences, than those described by Cervantes above.
I assume that those who are considering, or already are, mixing meditation with psychedelics, are searching for the ‘something more’ that is so often talked about. I feel I have several insights I am willing to share.
MY ARGUMENT IS: FOR THOSE HOPING TO TRANSCEND THE MOST COMMON TYPE OF TRIPPING - RECREATIONAL TRIPPING - EGO LOSS SHOULD BE A HIGH-PRIORITY GOAL, AS IT IS A POWERFUL KEY TO UNLOCKING NEW, DESIRABLE STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS. MEDITATION AND PSYCHEDELICS SHARE COMMON GROUND IN THAT THEY BOTH WORK TOWARDS ATTAINING EGO LOSS. THEREFORE, PSYCHEDELICS AND MEDITATION ARE A POWERFUL COMBINATION FOR THOSE WHO ARE SERIOUS ABOUT PSYCHO-EXPLORATION.
Ego loss places you in a realm of consciousness that has not been fully explored, or understood. Much like the Newbie mushroom hunter finding their first active, once you get there, all your preparation will have been worthwhile. And believe me, you will want to explore. Though it has its faults, I WILL DRAW ON THE 8 CIRCUIT MODEL OF CONSCIOUSNESS FOR MY DISCUSSION, mainly because it is pretty familiar to many of us, and is a useful way of subcategorising internal mental systems. I will leave it as assumed knowledge. If you are interested, just do an internet search. Good info is available at deoxy.org (which I can’t get to load right now so no direct links sorry!) Ego loss defined:
My experience of ego loss has led me to conclude that it can be DEFINED AS THE STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS THAT EXISTS WHEN THE FIRST FOUR CIRCUITS DISSOLVE. This opens the potential to freely explore the higher circuits, which are usually held in check by ego mind activity. “EGO LOSS” REFERS TO A STATE OF ‘NO-MIND’ (BUDDHISM), THE ‘DISSOLUTION OF THE SELF’, TO BE REPLACED BY A DIFFERENT FORM OF CONSCIOUSNESS, that experience has shown me is be subject to far less rules about reality than the ego-mind, even compared to lucid dream states. Early observations imply that the rules that DO apply seem to be about as unpredictable as those of the quantum world, but, as in the quantum world, there is a pattern of predictability that can be gleaned over time.
Unless you get there purely through meditation and intent, or, say, 1,000 times the usual dose, your experience of ego loss will be temporary.
The benefits of ego loss
BY BREAKING THROUGH THE RESTRICTING REALITY MAPS OF THE SEMANTIC EGO, WHICH (FALSELY) DELINEATE WHAT WE ‘CAN’ AND ‘CANNOT’ EXPERIENCE IN THIS WORLD, WE OPEN OURSELVES TO FULL EXPERIENCE OF THE POTENTIALITIES IMPLIED BY THE HIGHER EIGHT CIRCUITS. Whether we consciously experience the principle of circuit 8 non-locality in an actual sense or as an illusive experience, it is nonetheless a powerful, ‘enlightening’ and beautiful state to be in.
I have gained knowledge in this state that has later been confirmed to be true – whether that is done through simply going on a journey to retrieve hidden memories, or accessing some kind of external knowledge bank, I do not know. However, I conclude that ego loss is indeed a useful and desirable state to visit, and, possibly, live in (debatable I know!).
I have experienced my most powerful healing episodes in this state. I find that reiki (which I practise) is greatly potentiated in the ego loss state, an opinion which sober recipients of ‘psychedelic reiki’ have confirmed with me. Emotional healing is also amplified, as you become able to see yourself through the eyes of an impartial judge that is also a loving observer. In the ego loss state, you can identify and leave behind unwanted emotional baggage.
As long as the ego loss state is maintained, the ego ceases to have a significant hold on your consciousness. You transcend to self-referential consciousness. In this space, you can truly claim to make choices from free will, instead of from the machinery of the programmed ego.
Calm focus is the best way to maintain the ego loss state, and can extend your trip by hours.
Interestingly, if you have a need to use elements of the first four circuits (say, you need to say something to a shopkeeper, or check the time or whatever) they will still work with you to the extent you need without compromising the ego loss state, provided you focus your mind on keeping your calm awareness. Fighting distractions, on the other hand, has to be about the quickest way to bring the ego back.
Incidentally: The morality circuit is replaced, it seems, by a kind of intuitive sense of right/wrong. You still have a good idea of what might get you into trouble or hurt somebody or yourself. Don’t worry that the loss of the ego will ruin your chances of survivability or keeping your friends! You keep the very best aspects of yourself wherever your Self may take you.
Because it is characterised by a state of ‘no-mind’, ego loss is the kind of state which, usually the first few times, you only realise you were there after the fact. Unless you are dosing very heavily, it will creep up on you, and feels like a warm embrace, with a sense of calm. Sometimes I feel like I am sinking into the earth, others, rising up to the sun.
Have you ever been tripping and felt like you were holding your mind together, putting a lot of mental effort into it, with the idea that if you did not, something bad would happen? At these times, ego loss is both possible and desirable. The ‘bad thing’ you are sensing is your ego fearing its impending dissolution. The first few times, your ego does not realise it will come back. This probably accounts for the hundreds of trip reports where Johnny and Jane say “I felt like I was going to die”, before vowing never to touch drugs again.
What you need to do is let go. Jump into the void. You will realise that what seemed like blank death-space is, in fact, full of matter and life. Beauty awaits.
MEDITATION AND PSYCHEDELICS
So ego loss is a highly desirable state for those wishing to get more from their ‘psychic’ explorations.
The first time I achieved ego loss was on eight average strength tabs, all at once. I realised I was in a rut, generally speaking, and took those tabs to find what else there might be in the world that I would like to explore (or something). My intent at the time, I remember, was “to find reason to hope for the future” a sentimental, but sufficiently desperate motive to take what felt like a significant risk. I was unfamiliar with the writings and culture that have grown around experimentation with Lucy, and indeed have only identified this ego loss state through hindsight. I now imagine that anything less than those 8 tabs would have been insufficient to blast through the doors of perception, in my state of lax mental preparation.
It seems reasonable, then, to conclude that large doses of psychedelics can force ego loss, even in the untrained and uncertain novice. However, this is probably not the best way forward. Financial cost, and undue strain on the body and mind, mean heavy doses are not very sustainable. Additionally, being blasted through the doorway is fine, unless you find yourself unable to cope with the sensory overload of the heavier doses. The risk of bad trips increases with dosage as well.
Meditation can bring you to ego loss as well, and probably gives the best kind of ego loss, as it can be turned on and off, requires little finance, and is good for you in many other ways. However, most of us do not have the kind of life that allows the level of commitment necessary to get to the point of ego loss. Practical concerns and responsibilities get in the way, as do constraints on the time available for our self development. Like all of us, Zen monks are lucky in some ways; this is one of them.
SO USING ONE OR THE OTHER CAN WORK TO ATTAIN OUR GOAL OF EGO LOSS, BUT BOTH HAVE SIGNIFICANT DRAWBACKS THAT MAKE THEM UNOBTAINABLE OR UNDESIRABLE FOR MOST OF US.
So I have two tools. My meditative ability I have developed myself, and consider it a valuable attribute in many areas of living. I have found psychedelics to be a powerful tool for self discovery and exploration. But it is only since I began to seriously consider ways of combining the two that I realised the inherent power in mixing two tools with seemingly polar effects.
Basic meditation acts to slow down the mind, calming the system. Psychedelics do what they do, at first glance nothing even NEAR what meditation does. I think it is for this reason that some people believe they should not be mixed.
However, while the primary effect of these tools may be different, they unite at an important junction. Through breaking down associations and activating ‘unusual’ neural pathways, psychedelics move the subject towards ego loss. When this process reaches saturation point, ego loss is achieved. Meditation works by using your conscious will to slow the mind to the point where the ego dissolves.
BOTH TOOLS CAN PRODUCE THE POWERFUL EGO-LOSS STATE, AND IT IS IN THIS SHARED ABILITY THAT THE POWER OF COMBINING THEM CAN BE FOUND.
Happily, I have found that using both tools at once can reliably bring me to an ego loss state in a fashion that is in all ways gentler than very heavy doses of substance, still allowing me to DO a significant amount in the time I have, without feeling overwhelmed. Dosage is in the realm of what would usually produce a light-moderate trip of whatever is the preferred substance.
I have a moderate background in meditation, having done so for about two years around the edges of a busy life.
A page on the kind of meditations I am talking about is here: http://www.deoxy.org/psychedelicyoga.htm
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: hallucinogens - Meditation [Re: daytripper23]
#8696348 - 07/29/08 08:16 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I find meditation very conducive to napping, so I give it a solid
Psychedelics I find very conducive to experiencing terror and bliss so I also give it a .
I have never found that they go well together.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,009
|
Re: hallucinogens - Meditation [Re: deranger]
#8696354 - 07/29/08 08:18 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
SyntheticMInd said: then what?
*awaits rgv's preconceived notions*
suspension
-------------------- _ 🧠 _
|
daytripper23
?
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
|
|
Quote:
Doggy Mind:
One time when I was visiting a friend, he kept playing with his dog, throwing a plastic bone for the dog to go fetch. It not only wasn't a real bone,it wasn't even a convinceing fake; pieces of meat were painted on the plastic. Yet no matter how many times he threw the bone, the dog ran after it, with great excitement. He kept chasing this plastic bone, which had no nourishment whatsoever, as if it could somehow satisfy him. Suddenly I realized: that's my mind, chasing after thoughts. The mind doesn't think it's chasing a plastic bone with pieces of meat painted on it, of course. It thinks it's pursuing something that will have a vital effect on its life. But if we look more closely at the objects that the mind chases, we notice a similar lack of nourishment. -In contrast to that, think of a lion. Can you imagine how a lion-sitting in that majestic way they have-would react if you threw him a bone (especially a plastic one)? He wouldn't even notice. He'd just stare at you. Lions stay focused on the source. That's the attitude we need to have, sitting with that deep calm, that steadiness of purpose, not chasing after every bone that flies our way. We need to develop lion mind. - Some years ago I had an experience that, when thought about it later left me quite sheepish and let me know just how strong these habitual tendencies of the mind are. I was at the insight meditation society on a self retreat, meditating in my room at about 11:30 in the morning. It was roughly the middle of the retreat, and in that particular sitting my mind got extremely still, full of joy and bliss and peace. I began to have the feeling: This is it. This is what I've been reading about for years, hoping with all my heart to achieve. full and total enlightenment. It's right around the corner....
At Which point the lunch bell rang-they have a kind of gong that they ring there, which gives off a beautiful sound as the ringer walks through the halls - and without hesitating I unfolded my legs, stood up, and walked downstairs to get my rice and vegetables. It was only afterword that I said to myself, Hey, wait a minute. No matter how you look at that story, one fact is clear. I preferred a good meal to enlightenment.
This excerpt, from "Breath by Breath" by Larry Rosenberg, seems to describe my own enthusiasm for psychedelics and meditation.
As for my own thoughts, if I said that the experience common to both is essentially, I think everybody here would catch my drift. In my mind, they are profound to me for the exact same reasons.
Meditation is something that I think of as requiring discipline, and I realize the worth of this, to an extent. But sometimes it also seems like meditation is in a certain sense "less effective" than tripping-meditation, because I never get near as deep when I am not tripping. Based upon certain profound tripping experiences, I have worked up the idea of tripping to be so sacred and so full of potential (and I am completely convinced of this) that the slightest thought of discipline, seems as if it should inspire me to spend the entire trip in seated meditation. This is how I think about it now, when I am sober, and the idea of discipline is very familiar. In sober thought, the polarity of discipline in light of this incredible potential (the other pole?), is in concept, unified by this essential experience.
But as a matter of experience, I have never spent longer than 45 minutes meditating during a trip. And although I try to meditate every trip, I usually give up before I begin to settle in.
When I have tripped and really meditated, the experiences have been incredibly profound. Why would I not take just 45 minutes of my trip to do this every trip? Despite how easy this process seems to be (just dedicating the time), and how profound it is, I spend almost all of my time tripping in carpe diem. Although it seems to me that I turn my back on my values, Carpe Diem clearly has its own sensible thought process.
I think that when I am tripping, I have found such a deep a function of my self, the idea of discipline is ridiculous. What I mean by this, I would say makes most sense in terms of my music. I am my true self when I come up with a new modulation on the piano. In this process of exploration, the explicit idea of discipline is completely unnecessary, in fact, its ridiculous. When I get into it, I am not thinking OF music theory, or any discipline of music.
In terms of true self, I believe discipline is something that one eventually leaves behind, or rather it might become something that is part of the play. Psychedelics seem to put me in contact with this self, which makes the idea of discipline seem ridiculous.
So when tripping, when in the moment, there is a new polarity between:
discipline (Ascetic) and art (aesthetic)
Despite how I think of it in my day to day routines, meditation is clearly not part of Carpe Diem, although I know it should be. It seems to be more like practice, and discipline. But even Despite THIS, when I DO actually meditate, I always appreciate it, even when I am tripping. There are of course no misgivings
So thats a little about what I think.
and everyone, thanks for sharing your thoughts too.
|
daytripper23
?
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
|
|
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: My question to you firstly, is why do you you the term "hallucinogen" that is perjoratively used by the medical and legal establishments? Words are extraordinary vehicles of meaning, and the word 'psychedelic' (mind-manifesting) or 'entheogen' (generating God within) are not only positive terms for 'sacred substances,' but the use of these words yourself might halfway answer your own question. If your mind-set is derived from a pathological model (e.g., there are no recognized legitimate uses for Schedule 1 "hallucinogens") then you're already creating a widening gulf between the established medical-legal model and your own intimations of spirituality.
Please consider the music of Jerry Garcia and Robert Hunter, the poetry of Gary Schneider, the paintings of Alex Grey, the literature of Aldous Huxley, the medicine of Andrew Weil, the philosophy of Huston Smith, the psychology of Tim Leary and the religion of Ram Dass as examples of whether 'sacred substances' have bearing on meditation. These individuals' contributions all attest to the remarkable fruits of their psychedelic meditations.
Peace, -MtG
Markos, I know what you mean. I have been in countless discussions where I have been told, "its called a hallucinogen for a reason."
Just hallucinations, right?. Im not sure what I think of this. Part of me thinks that this is the way it should be, that there should be nothing explicit as a label for these kinds of substances. Take the word entheogen for instance, is this word at all respected, even though it is clearly the basis for a "proper (ineffective ) sacrament" I suspect that any way it is expressed it would be ridiculed. Mind manifesting, this I know is treated by the majority of society as a joke.
On the other hand, what is a hallucination? (not necessarily just hallucinations) It has a nice existential, or Quixotian ring to it, and I am not sure if this is a good or a bad thing.
But hey, I would be lying to say that I am at all good at this social aspect. I pretty much gave up after trying to convince my friends a couple years ago that I could telepathically communicate with my pets when I shroom. Hopefully you can understand the my sentimentality for implicit language
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
|
Re: hallucinogens - Meditation [Re: Icelander]
#8697266 - 07/29/08 12:31 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: I find meditation very conducive to napping, so I give it a solid
Psychedelics I find very conducive to experiencing terror and bliss so I also give it a .
I have never found that they go well together.
"Couldn't Get High" - The Fugs (Chords not available)
I've got New sunglasses And i've got Backstage passes For y'all Girls with fine asses Yeah oh yeah Sunshine, girlies and money What it takes to get me on a roll Some call me mr. soul
I went to this party The other night Said i want to feel What my brain had felt like I grabbed my bottle And i start drinkin' wine I thought pretty soon That i would be Feelin' fine But no i couldn't get high Oh no And then I couldn't get high Oh no And then i Dont know why
Threw down the bottle And then i whipped out my pipe Stuffed it full of goodies And then i gave that shit a light I huffed and i puffed Good lord i Smoked and i choked I smoking for so long Until my heart was nearly broke Because i couldn't get high Oh no And then i Couldn't get high Oh no And then i Try i tried
I threw down the pipe Just as pissed as i could be Gobbled down a mound of some Lsd I waited and i waited For my body to zing I waited i waited But not a fucking thing Because i couldn't get high Oh no And then i Couldn't get high Oh no Lord i Dont know why
|
|