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Offlineg00ru
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Re: dog ate more then an 1/8 of dried shrooms [Re: LSDreamer]
    #8690992 - 07/28/08 12:17 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LSDreamer said:
Quote:

Midnight Rider said:
Quote:

delta9 said:
Quote:

Midnight Rider said:
I've had operations that were so big that we were dropping shrooms on the floors and the dogs were getting ahold of em.  We would catch them chewing them like rawhide bones.  We have one very old dog left thats had more than her share of shrooms.  She's just very very very mellow...especially for a pitbull...but I'm sure yer dog will be fine as long as its big and weighty enough to absorbe the toxins and not overload its liver or something...there is no need for panic just gve it water and let it eat some grass from the lawn and everything should be fine.



What are these toxins of which you speak?  You've ran large operations and you don't understand how mushrooms work?  You are foolish.




You must be some kind of douche bag to call me a fool for saying that cubensis have some toxins in them, which they do.  Its just that most fuck heads like you can't handle enough psilocybin psychologically to acheive a physical toxicity.  Jack ass...




Seriously. Psilocin DOES have a lethal dose and its going to be much lower in animals with lower weights than us.




So does water, we don't consider it toxic.  You probably have to inject strait up psilocin into your veins to actually produce toxic effects.


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Invisibleusg543
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Re: dog ate more then an 1/8 of dried shrooms [Re: LSDreamer]
    #8690993 - 07/28/08 12:18 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

everything has a lethal dose, if you drink too much water you die, doesn't mean water is toxic.

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OfflineLSDreamer
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Re: dog ate more then an 1/8 of dried shrooms [Re: usg543]
    #8691006 - 07/28/08 12:23 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Oh, let's not even get into this debate. If a rat ate 5 grams of mushrooms, it could potentially die. Nobody ever even suggested that the dog might be reaching toxic levels of psilocin. And for another thing, the comparison of water toxicity to psilocin is invalid. Water is completely non toxic at any dose. Water "toxicity" is essentially severe dehydration caused by low concentration of electrolytes. At a certain dose, you will die from psilocin toxicity, that is as a direct result of psilocin's pharmacological effects. See the difference?


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Offlinedelta9
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Re: dog ate more then an 1/8 of dried shrooms [Re: Midnight Rider]
    #8691026 - 07/28/08 12:28 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Midnight Rider said:
Quote:

delta9 said:
Quote:

Midnight Rider said:
I've had operations that were so big that we were dropping shrooms on the floors and the dogs were getting ahold of em.  We would catch them chewing them like rawhide bones.  We have one very old dog left thats had more than her share of shrooms.  She's just very very very mellow...especially for a pitbull...but I'm sure yer dog will be fine as long as its big and weighty enough to absorbe the toxins and not overload its liver or something...there is no need for panic just gve it water and let it eat some grass from the lawn and everything should be fine.



What are these toxins of which you speak?  You've ran large operations and you don't understand how mushrooms work?  You are foolish.




You must be some kind of douche bag to call me a fool for saying that cubensis have some toxins in them, which they do.  Its just that most fuck heads like you can't handle enough psilocybin psychologically to acheive a physical toxicity.  Jack ass...



Please, name (chemically) these toxins contained in Cubensis mushrooms and explain their pharmacological effects.  Many people here would be very interested in this information, I assure you.

As already point out, any substance can have a measured LD50 or related data which shows that with enough of it in a short enough time span it could produce toxic effects; however, we don't consider every substance a toxin.  Specifically, we consider toxins to be:
Quote:

A poisonous substance, especially a protein, that is produced by living cells or organisms and is capable of causing disease when introduced into the body tissues but is often also capable of inducing neutralizing antibodies or antitoxins.




Stupid troll is stupid and should GTFO.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: dog ate more then an 1/8 of dried shrooms [Re: usg543]
    #8691030 - 07/28/08 12:29 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

hmm liver issues do not seem to be out of the question, if only for the sake of being in question. I would bet that it effects the liver in a similar way that alcohol might. This is no big deal in any circumstance and the dog will be fine physically. Add that to the fact that animals are pretty keen when it comes to natural poisons.

But technically, id guess that it is actually a bit toxic. If your body is at all telling the truth, the trip is a reaction to a toxin. The trip is an illness.

To draw a parallel, (not to say that its the same) ancient civilizations used snake venom to trip. Its different with mushrooms, to a great extent mushrooms "trick" the body in this way. Thats why they are so safe. But I wouldn't doubt that there is some level of toxicity, if only minute.

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Offlinedelta9
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Re: dog ate more then an 1/8 of dried shrooms [Re: LSDreamer]
    #8691055 - 07/28/08 12:39 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LSDreamer said:
Oh, let's not even get into this debate.



Oh, yes, lets!
Quote:

If a rat ate 5 grams of mushrooms, it could potentially die.



False.  What do you base this hypothesis on?
Quote:

Nobody ever even suggested that the dog might be reaching toxic levels of psilocin.



No, but someone suggested there were toxins in Psilocybe mushrooms, which is what we are discussing.
Quote:

And for another thing, the comparison of water toxicity to psilocin is invalid.



Why?  Neither hydrogen dioxide and psilocin are considered toxins or poisons.  Seems they have that much in common.
Quote:

Water is completely non toxic at any dose.



False.
Quote:

Water "toxicity" is essentially severe dehydration caused by low concentration of electrolytes.



Also, false, but this time you are close.  "Water toxicity" is "hyponatremia" or over-hydration which indeed causes a lower concentration of sodium in your body, especially brain cells (which is a bunch of sodium-potassium pumps).
Quote:

At a certain dose, you will die from psilocin toxicity, that is as a direct result of psilocin's pharmacological effects. See the difference?



At a certain dose (concentration with respect to time) of water, your brain cells swell and eventually squeeze the connection between the brain and spinal cord, causing death.  This is a direct result of the pharmacological effects of hydrogen dioxide.  Please explain, in depth, the pharmacological effects of psilocin which lead to death.


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InvisibleMidnight Rider
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Re: dog ate more then an 1/8 of dried shrooms [Re: LSDreamer]
    #8691057 - 07/28/08 12:40 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Personal experience(I sold them the shrooms):  A 50 year old male received a pound of P. cubensis Amazonian in the mail. Since he was very experienced with Mushrooms and being excited to get the package, he decided to consume approximately 10 grams over a period of 1 hour. 
Aproximatly 1 hour after ingesting the last mushroom the man began to feel more lethargic than usual.  After another hour he was in respitory distress unable to breath with an extremely shallow pulse.  Upon hospitalization and presentation to hospital staff it was determined that the man had poisoned himself with a glutonous quantity of high quality cubensis.  I liver function assay was performed and abnormal enzyme levels were detected.  He was kept in the hospital for ten days until his liver function returned to normal.

True story, the guy was a friend of my brother.

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Invisibleusg543
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Re: dog ate more then an 1/8 of dried shrooms [Re: LSDreamer]
    #8691060 - 07/28/08 12:49 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

It is highly unlikely that psilocin or psilocybin cause physical damage to your nervous system or its supporting systems. If anything, it may be possible that it would cause liver damage in high or repetitive doses, but this is unlikely as well. The similarity in structure between psiloc(yb)in and serotonin would indicate that they are likely processed by the same enzymes and yield similar, water soluble, non-toxic metabolites (though this is a gross generalization, and there are many exceptions to this rule; simple changes to a structure can have drastic changes on effect, metabolization, and toxicity).





straight from erowid.

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Invisibleusg543
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Re: dog ate more then an 1/8 of dried shrooms [Re: delta9]
    #8691064 - 07/28/08 12:51 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

delta9 said:
Quote:

LSDreamer said:
Oh, let's not even get into this debate.



Oh, yes, lets!
Quote:

If a rat ate 5 grams of mushrooms, it could potentially die.



False.  What do you base this hypothesis on?
Quote:

Nobody ever even suggested that the dog might be reaching toxic levels of psilocin.



No, but someone suggested there were toxins in Psilocybe mushrooms, which is what we are discussing.
Quote:

And for another thing, the comparison of water toxicity to psilocin is invalid.



Why?  Neither hydrogen dioxide and psilocin are considered toxins or poisons.  Seems they have that much in common.
Quote:

Water is completely non toxic at any dose.



False.
Quote:

Water "toxicity" is essentially severe dehydration caused by low concentration of electrolytes.



Also, false, but this time you are close.  "Water toxicity" is "hyponatremia" or over-hydration which indeed causes a lower concentration of sodium in your body, especially brain cells (which is a bunch of sodium-potassium pumps).
Quote:

At a certain dose, you will die from psilocin toxicity, that is as a direct result of psilocin's pharmacological effects. See the difference?



At a certain dose (concentration with respect to time) of water, your brain cells swell and eventually squeeze the connection between the brain and spinal cord, causing death.  This is a direct result of the pharmacological effects of hydrogen dioxide.  Please explain, in depth, the pharmacological effects of psilocin which lead to death.




:thumbup:


edit: and i just found this too.

Quote:

No. Psilocybin mushrooms are not toxic. The National Institute For Occupational Safety And Heath (NIOSH) in the US Psilocybin (641) is rated less toxic than Aspirin (199) and Nicotine (21).



Edited by usg543 (07/28/08 12:52 AM)

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Offlinedelta9
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Re: dog ate more then an 1/8 of dried shrooms [Re: daytripper23]
    #8691066 - 07/28/08 12:54 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
hmm liver issues do not seem to be out of the question, if only for the sake of being in question. I would bet that it effects the liver in a similar way that alcohol might. This is no big deal in any circumstance and the dog will be fine physically. Add that to the fact that animals are pretty keen when it comes to natural poisons.

But technically, id guess that it is actually a bit toxic. If your body is at all telling the truth, the trip is a reaction to a toxin. The trip is an illness.

To draw a parallel, (not to say that its the same) ancient civilizations used snake venom to trip. Its different with mushrooms, to a great extent mushrooms "trick" the body in this way. Thats why they are so safe. But I wouldn't doubt that there is some level of toxicity, if only minute.



Did the shroomery go stupid while I was away?  I cannot believe you guys are calling Psilocybe mushrooms a "natural poison".  That is one of the oldest myths, EVER, and stems from the fact that Aminata Muscaria mushrooms are indeed poisonous and do affect the liver.


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Invisibleusg543
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Re: dog ate more then an 1/8 of dried shrooms [Re: delta9]
    #8691070 - 07/28/08 12:56 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

seriously. i didn't think you guys would believe that dare bullshit.

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OfflineLSDreamer
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Re: dog ate more then an 1/8 of dried shrooms [Re: usg543]
    #8691071 - 07/28/08 12:56 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Alright, if you really, REALLY want to get THAT technical about it, fine, I'll play your game. Some mushrooms contain 5-HT. As we all know, 5-HT is shredded by MAO. Since MAOis make mushrooms stronger, that must mean that psilocin is also metabolized by MAO. If you ate enough mushrooms containing comparatively high levels of 5-HT, you could achieve enough MAO inhibition to cause serotonin syndrome and death. Is it likely? Oh, GOD no, its not, but there you have it, a situation in which compounds found in mushrooms could kill you.


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Invisibleusg543
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Re: dog ate more then an 1/8 of dried shrooms [Re: LSDreamer]
    #8691073 - 07/28/08 12:58 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

:rolleyes:

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Offlinedelta9
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Re: dog ate more then an 1/8 of dried shrooms [Re: Midnight Rider]
    #8691074 - 07/28/08 12:58 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Midnight Rider said:
Personal experience(I sold them the shrooms):  A 50 year old male received a pound of P. cubensis Amazonian in the mail. Since he was very experienced with Mushrooms and being excited to get the package, he decided to consume approximately 10 grams over a period of 1 hour. 
Aproximatly 1 hour after ingesting the last mushroom the man began to feel more lethargic than usual.  After another hour he was in respitory distress unable to breath with an extremely shallow pulse.  Upon hospitalization and presentation to hospital staff it was determined that the man had poisoned himself with a glutonous quantity of high quality cubensis.  I liver function assay was performed and abnormal enzyme levels were detected.  He was kept in the hospital for ten days until his liver function returned to normal.

True story, the guy was a friend of my brother.



Cite some sources, buddy.  Seriously...  Plenty of retards do more than 10 grams of shrooms (with tolerance for most of them).  Either he did it to himself mentally (which is his own work, certainly enabled by the shrooms but not CAUSED by - otherwise other idiots would surely have gone into respiratory distress) or you sold him aborts or something.  Also, saying "true story" doesn't make it seem any more true - more the opposite!


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delta9

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Offlinedelta9
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Re: dog ate more then an 1/8 of dried shrooms [Re: LSDreamer]
    #8691087 - 07/28/08 01:04 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LSDreamer said:
Alright, if you really, REALLY want to get THAT technical about it, fine, I'll play your game. Some mushrooms contain 5-HT. As we all know, 5-HT is shredded by MAO. Since MAOis make mushrooms stronger, that must mean that psilocin is also metabolized by MAO. If you ate enough mushrooms containing comparatively high levels of 5-HT, you could achieve enough MAO inhibition to cause serotonin syndrome and death. Is it likely? Oh, GOD no, its not, but there you have it, a situation in which compounds found in mushrooms could kill you.



Bullshit.  5-HT is just Serotonin and I'm pretty sure it is not found in mushrooms, but even if it is, that it is neither toxic, nor a monoamineoxidase inhibitor (it is, in fact, a monoamine neurotransmitter, however).


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delta9

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OfflineLSDreamer
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Re: dog ate more then an 1/8 of dried shrooms [Re: delta9]
    #8691098 - 07/28/08 01:11 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

^I know what MAO is. If it is metabolized by MAO, it is an MAO inhibitor, that it, it is possible to consume enough of it that you will occupy all available MAO. And I saw an article that showed that some mushrooms contain 5-HT, but I can't find it amidst the sea of results about the hallucinogenic effects of mushrooms. For the love of God, man, nobody ever said that its in any way likely that somebody would die from mushroom related toxicity. All the guy was saying was that the dog weighs enough that it isn't going to die. Psilocybin DOES have an LD50. It is about 280mg/kg in rats. The point is that there IS a toxic dose of mushrooms, but nobody is EVER likely to reach it.


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: dog ate more then an 1/8 of dried shrooms [Re: daytripper23]
    #8691106 - 07/28/08 01:12 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
hmm liver issues do not seem to be out of the question, if only for the sake of being in question. I would bet that it effects the liver in a similar way that alcohol might.




Methinks someone lacks basic knowledge of the metabolism of drugs and alcohol.  Most drugs you ingest in milligram quantities.  With alcohol, the dose is typically many grams.  The stress put on the liver in metabolizing such quantities of alcohol is particularly great, because it leads to greater amounts of acetaldehyde in the course of metabolizing the drug.

"Although the liver converts acetaldehyde into acetic acid, it reaches a saturation point where some of it escapes into the blood stream. The accumulated acetaldehyde exerts its toxic effects by inhibiting the mitochondria reactions and functions. The alcoholic is a victim of a vicious circle; a high acetaldehyde level impairs mitochondria function, metabolism of acetaldehyde to acetic acid decreases, more acetaldehyde accumulates, and causes further liver damage--hepatitis and cirrhosis."

Please explain why you think it's reasonable to assume mushrooms would have the the same effects as the acetalde that results from multigram quantities of alcohol.

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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: dog ate more then an 1/8 of dried shrooms [Re: delta9]
    #8691108 - 07/28/08 01:13 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

delta9 said:
Quote:

LSDreamer said:
Alright, if you really, REALLY want to get THAT technical about it, fine, I'll play your game. Some mushrooms contain 5-HT. As we all know, 5-HT is shredded by MAO. Since MAOis make mushrooms stronger, that must mean that psilocin is also metabolized by MAO. If you ate enough mushrooms containing comparatively high levels of 5-HT, you could achieve enough MAO inhibition to cause serotonin syndrome and death. Is it likely? Oh, GOD no, its not, but there you have it, a situation in which compounds found in mushrooms could kill you.



Bullshit.  5-HT is just Serotonin and I'm pretty sure it is not found in mushrooms, but even if it is, that it is neither toxic, nor a monoamineoxidase inhibitor (it is, in fact, a monoamine neurotransmitter, however).




BULLSHIT!

As a substrate of monoamine oxidase, it's a competetive inhibitor by definition.

What the fuck are you talking about?:confused:

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OfflineLSDreamer
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Re: dog ate more then an 1/8 of dried shrooms [Re: Entropymancer]
    #8691111 - 07/28/08 01:15 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Entropymancer said:
Quote:

delta9 said:
Quote:

LSDreamer said:
Alright, if you really, REALLY want to get THAT technical about it, fine, I'll play your game. Some mushrooms contain 5-HT. As we all know, 5-HT is shredded by MAO. Since MAOis make mushrooms stronger, that must mean that psilocin is also metabolized by MAO. If you ate enough mushrooms containing comparatively high levels of 5-HT, you could achieve enough MAO inhibition to cause serotonin syndrome and death. Is it likely? Oh, GOD no, its not, but there you have it, a situation in which compounds found in mushrooms could kill you.



Bullshit.  5-HT is just Serotonin and I'm pretty sure it is not found in mushrooms, but even if it is, that it is neither toxic, nor a monoamineoxidase inhibitor (it is, in fact, a monoamine neurotransmitter, however).




BULLSHIT!

As a substrate of monoamine oxidase, it's a competetive inhibitor by definition.

What the fuck are you talking about?:confused:




Thank you! I was feeling alone in a sea of madness...:lol:


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Re: dog ate more then an 1/8 of dried shrooms [Re: clemens]
    #8691115 - 07/28/08 01:16 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

clemens said:
about 45 minutes ago my dog ate my peanut butter shroom sandwich and she ate the whole thing. at least 4 grams dry cubes in that and maybe more like 5 grams. What do I do?




How is the dog,DOG!?

GODOG


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