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InvisibledeCypher
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MAOIs + Amanita Muscaria?
    #8677679 - 07/24/08 08:08 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

So I haven't been able to find any conclusive information on whether or not it's safe to combine MAOIs with Amanita Muscaria, besides from a few scattered Erowid accounts that reported no negative effects besides from mild nausea.  Is this combination healthy?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineZinglons Acolyte
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Re: MAOIs + Amanita Muscaria? [Re: deCypher]
    #8677969 - 07/24/08 09:13 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

why would you want to? muscarine isnt a monoamine, taking an maoi with it wont do anything unless youre trying to just get the maoi effects and the amanita effects


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And they wandered off.. nine ways till bedfast.
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"And lets pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space 'cause theres bugger-all down here on earth!"  -Monty Python's "The Universe Song" from The Meaning of Life
"In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely considered as a bad move."  -Douglas Adams "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"
"If the words 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on." -Terence McKenna


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: MAOIs + Amanita Muscaria? [Re: Zinglons Acolyte]
    #8678097 - 07/24/08 09:46 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Well, that's what I've been trying to ascertain.  An Erowid article does list an anecdotal reference where the effect of the Amanita mushroom was boosted by an MAOI... but it seems strange that this would work given the non-traditional psychoactive compounds found in the mushroom.

Quote:

The last method I would like to mention is the most interesting and may produce the strongest effects. This is to combine any of the above methods with Peganum harmala seeds or extract to produce monoamine oxidase inhibition. I have never tried this method myself but am aware of one such experimentation which produced very strong effects. I've been awaiting a report from this acquaintance, but have yet to receive it. I first heard of this technique from an employee of an occult bookstore and herbal center which sells many uncontrolled entheogens. This employee, and practitioner of Wiccan magic, stated that if Peganum harmala is used with A. muscaria the A. muscaria dosage could be cut in half. I first thought she was confusing her mushrooms, as a dosage of Psilocybin mushrooms can be halved when taken with P. harmala. I mentioned this to her, and to my surprise she stated that she has tried the A. muscaria/P. harmala combination. I later talked with the owner of the store who stated that there is a history of this combination. I personally am unaware of this type of usage in the entheogen community, but it's possible that it exists in Wiccan practices. Upon my mentioning of this combination on the old Visionary Plant List I received a response from JRH who had mentioned this to J. Ott as a way to clear up the linguistic controversy of Wasson's and Flattery's opposing theories. JRH stated that Ott didn't have anything to say about this possibility.



http://www.erowid.org/plants/amanitas/references/other/1997_smith_amanita1.shtml

BTW, muscarine isn't the psychoactive compound in the amanitas--it's muscimol that's hypothesized to create the hallucinogenic effect.  I'm not overly familiar with organic chemistry, but muscimol does appear to have that single amino group attached to it that would make it a monoamine... correct me if I'm wrong.


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OfflineZinglons Acolyte
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Re: MAOIs + Amanita Muscaria? [Re: deCypher]
    #8678242 - 07/24/08 10:32 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

well, erowid also said that salvia would be boosted by maois :shrug:


--------------------
And they wandered off.. nine ways till bedfast.
-----
"And lets pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space 'cause theres bugger-all down here on earth!"  -Monty Python's "The Universe Song" from The Meaning of Life
"In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely considered as a bad move."  -Douglas Adams "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"
"If the words 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on." -Terence McKenna


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: MAOIs + Amanita Muscaria? [Re: Zinglons Acolyte]
    #8678612 - 07/25/08 12:00 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

*shakes fist* at Erowid.  Oh well, methinks I'll leave out amanitas for the time being.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflinemothNflame
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Re: MAOIs + Amanita Muscaria? [Re: deCypher]
    #27687587 - 03/08/22 02:01 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Amanita Muscaria is actually one of the highest natural sources of bufotenine (a tryptamine similar to 5meoDMT). I think this explains the inconsistency of trips with Amanita Muscaria. I take 3-5 grams before bed for sleep and usually don't trip that hard. However, there is that occasional out of the blue trip where it feels like I've cracked the veil and am suddenly in DMT land. Some of the most euphoric colorful trips i've had were on Amanita. Likewise, the weakest most boring trips i've ever had were also amanita at the same dose. I consume plenty of adaptogenic herbs and supplements for fitness at random. It has me wondering if the nights I accidentally trip were due to an herb I consumed unknowing it contained an MOAI. I don't know if Rhodiola and St Johns Wort are strong enough MAOI's, but something is happening that I can't explain. Occasionally Amanita Muscaria is very DMT like. Bufotenine with MAOI would be my best bet.


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Offlines240779
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Re: MAOIs + Amanita Muscaria? [Re: mothNflame]
    #27688016 - 03/08/22 08:59 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mothNflame said:
Amanita Muscaria is actually one of the highest natural sources of bufotenine (a tryptamine similar to 5meoDMT). I think this explains the inconsistency of trips with Amanita Muscaria.




You better post a source for that.


Quote:

mothNflame said:
I don't know if Rhodiola and St Johns Wort are strong enough MAOI's,




At first, hypericin was wrongly attributed as being responsible for the antidepressant activity of St. John’s Wort extracts. It was claimed that this compound exhibited MAO-A inhibiting properties [19], but finally it was demonstrated that this was due to an impurity of the hypericin that was used for the assay [20]. It has since been established that hypericin seems not to play a major role in  the  antidepressant  effect  of  St.  John’s  Wort  –  this  pigment  is, however, responsible for various other interesting biological effects that include photo-dynamic properties, antiviral and potential antineoplastic activities [18]. (p. 7)

St. John's Wort and Its Active Principles in Depression and Anxiety, Walter E. Müller (Editor), 2005


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OfflineAyyeshroomhunter
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Re: MAOIs + Amanita Muscaria? [Re: deCypher]
    #28623480 - 01/16/24 01:02 PM (11 days, 19 hours ago)

there's very little knowledge about the combination of maois and amanita. i've read similar reports that harmalas enhance amanita and i think it makes sense considering that harmalas and maois enhance serotonin and i believe amanita increases serotonin too. GABA and serotonin are closely related and i think amanita has more downstream effects than just GABA A agonist which interacts with harmalas. i think i remember reading that maybe even shamans combined maois like syrian rue with amanita in some combinations so it wouldn't surprise me at all that they potentiate each other. may be a bit intense of a physical load to combine them if you take large doses but i think as a microdose level it would have good medicinal effects. there's of course zero research about obscure combinations like this but i want to try it myself when i get caapi harmalas.

also, harmalas are a unique type of maoi, i think they are more likely to potentiate amanita than regular maois...


Edited by Ayyeshroomhunter (01/16/24 01:04 PM)


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: MAOIs + Amanita Muscaria? [Re: mothNflame]
    #28623509 - 01/16/24 01:20 PM (11 days, 19 hours ago)

Harmala alkaloids mediate some forms of Anticholinergic toxicity and Banisteriopsis caapi was used extensively in concert with Brugmansia in the past.

However this may be tropane alkaloid specific and I still can't suggest that people ingest Brugmansia even with caapi.

As for Harmalas and Amanita, I'd avoid the combination personally but am not aware of any reason that it should be harmful.

Quote:

mothNflame said:
Amanita Muscaria is actually one of the highest natural sources of bufotenine (a tryptamine similar to 5meoDMT).





According to Some Simple Tryptamines by Keeper Trout (page 106) it was observed (in Amanita muscaria) a single time in 1953 and not observed in 1961 and 1979.  It was observed in Amanita citrina, from German, Swiss and Dutch specimens as the major alkaloid with stems containing as much as 1.5%, I assume on a dry weight basis.

Incidentally this section of this book by Keeper lists every published isolation of Bufotenine known in 2006. If it has been found since then it would not be in the work, nevertheless this is the best book on the planet when it comes to tryptamine isolation references and every psychonaut should have a copy on their shelf.

It is also a gorgeous book.

https://www.shroomery.org/8664/Overview-of-Amanita-muscaria

Quote:

As well, so far as Bufotenine goes, there is a report by Wieland and Motzel (1953) pertaining to Amanita muscaria, pantherina, and citrina. The presence of Bufotenine was then verified only for the species citrina, porphyria, and tomentelIa [Catalfolmo and Tyler, 1961; Tyler, 1961; Tyler and Groger, 1964b; Hoffer and Osmond, 1967; Eugster, 1968; Andary et al., 1978a, 1978b; Stijve, 1979; Perez-Silva and Aroche Alfonso, 1983; Bresinsky and Besl Regensburg, 1985]. There is probably a mistake due to contamination caused by carpophores of Amanita citrina. Bufotenine should be left out any way because it is not orally active [Fabing and Hawkins, 1956; Hoffer and Osmond, 1967; Schultes and Hofmann, 1980], and, according to some authors, not active at all.




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OfflineJim I.T.I
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Re: MAOIs + Amanita Muscaria? [Re: Nillion] * 2
    #28625214 - 01/17/24 08:00 PM (10 days, 12 hours ago)

My biggest concern to an maoi would be damange to my body. muscaria can already make you sick if you had a lot of ibotenic and weren't used to it. and if you're not clearing it from your body you can cause a hard time on your kidneys/liver.

I would ask this question, if you want to prolong it, why not stack? for example, i enjoy taking 6 or so grams of dried amanita muscaria, splitting it into 12 .5g doses, and eating .5g every 30min to an hour through the day so you never get that high of a dose of ibotenic acid all at once. then by evening enjoy the muscimol. sometimes i'll stack dry in the daytime, and decarb a couple grams to drink at night.

amanita muscaria and regalis & pantherina are great for anything from reducing or elimnating alcohol, adhd focus (ibo), pain relief, anxiety, sleep aid (mus), dream aids, and in macrodoses incredible psychs for serious journeys. i've found they tend to do different things depending on when and how they're taken. just go easy and get to know them. and be careful with pantherina. they are very much stronger than muscaria. but i luv'em :smile:


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: MAOIs + Amanita Muscaria? [Re: Jim I.T.I] * 2
    #28625696 - 01/18/24 09:07 AM (9 days, 23 hours ago)

MAOI's have absolutely no effect on/potentiation of GABAergics (or Ibotenic Acid), however, GABAergics can clean up the bodyload of MAOI's like Harmalas. Personally i've take several kinds of GABAergics (Lemon Balm and some other GABAergic herbs, Benzos, Alcohol, and Amanita) with Harmalas (as well as with Moclobemide) and it's absolutely never been any issue. As for Amanita, i personally don't find them to be anything particularly special, i've had low doses and high doses, with and without MAO-A inhibition, and personally i like and prefer Lemon Balm more than i do Amanitas. With that said i'm sure Amanita can be useful for some things, but it's not what i would call "THE Entheogen" (which i personally see Ayahuasca being the ultimate Entheogen because it has no tolerance and one can mix 1000's of different plants or supplements with it in order to alter it in some way or add different benefits/effects, plus DMT and Harmalas are natural to the body).

But yeah, a lot of people have a misunderstanding about MAOI's, and think they potentiate or affect almost everything, but really, MAOI's at least of the Harmala variety are very misunderstood and are not the least bit risky or dangerous and they don't potentiate most things. In fact you're more likely to get potentiation of things by CYP inhibition of MAO inhibitors (and other substances/medications), because Harmalas for example strongly inhibit CYP1A2 and CYP2D6 which can potentiate substrates for those enzymes, but that has to do with CYP, not MAO. As far as MAO goes, not many things are actually metabolized by MAO, just things like Serotonin, Dopamine, Noradrenaline, Tryptamine, DMT, Psilocin, 5-MEO-DMT, Bufotenin, Tyramine, PEA (MAO-B) and probably some other things, but not many things outside of that are actually broken down directly by MAO and are usually broken down by CYP liver enzymes or other liver enzymes. Plus MAO inhibition in the gut from Harmalas (or Moclobemide) only lasts about 2 hours max, usually an hour to an hour and a half and gone by two hours, even though MAO elsewhere like the brain and possibly liver can remain inhibited a bit longer, but as far as like Psilocin potentiation or DMT or Tryptamine oral activation, gut MAO-A inhibition is a must. Something like Tyramine though, definitely not an issue with reversible and selective MAO-A inhibitors.


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