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robanero
β Lib


Registered: 09/05/06
Posts: 874
Loc: Somewhere in Tx
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: First Bulk Grow w/Pics! [Re: chobumms]
#8676932 - 07/24/08 04:00 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
chobumms said:
Quote:
so I'm beginning to think I made it up
What the hell? How can we get in a pissing contest if the urine might be made up?
P.S. Who is that hot ass girl in your avatar?
LOL
That's a freak I used to do named Jen. She was TROUBLE.
--------------------
 
310 open cap Hawaiians grown a 1 pint WBSF cake.
SPAWN RATIO CALCULATOR
My Little Hawaiians
Spawn Bag Tek
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Alcebiades
Stranger thanMost

Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 39
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
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Re: First Bulk Grow w/Pics! [Re: robanero]
#8677123 - 07/24/08 04:56 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Thanks for all the feedback so far! By phototropic, I didn't mean photosynthetic (making food/energy from sunlight). Phototropism is a phenomenon in which some plants will "follow" the sun as it moves across the sky, thus maximizing the surface area of their leaves exposed to sunlight. I know that mushrooms aren't photosynthetic, but as my rH is constantly in the correct range (at least as far as my hygrometer tells me ) I thought perhaps they may be bending as a result of light coming at them from the side as opposed to directly overhead. Just a theory...
As far as doing a strain isolation, I was under the impression that you could do isolation at the same time as cloning. I primarily want to isolate a strain that grows single large fruits as opposed to clusters. Also, I want the myc. to be as rizomorphic as possible. While I can definitely achieve the second objective isolating a strain from spores, I'd have no idea if I'd achieved the first objective until I used said isolate and fruited it. There was something on here that said if you isolated a crappy strain, you'd be better off just using MSI, I believe it was in the bulk neglect report feedback. From what I've read (first timer here) doing a strain isolation from the flesh of a mature fruit is not only quicker (as you said, only a few strains to isolate as opposed to hundreds with a spore isolation), you also know the phenotype of the strain you're isolating (size, potency, pinset, etc.). I'll certainly take your advice and reread some posts to make sure I'm not mistaken.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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seven
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Registered: 06/09/08
Posts: 1,478
Loc: north carolina
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Re: First Bulk Grow w/Pics! [Re: Alcebiades]
#8677239 - 07/24/08 05:30 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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ok if you want lots of clusters clone the fruits from clusters. if you want solo standing mushrooms clone the solo guys. seriously ! it kinda sounded like i was jokeing. but i wasnt.
-------------------- grind
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seven
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Registered: 06/09/08
Posts: 1,478
Loc: north carolina
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Re: First Bulk Grow w/Pics! [Re: seven]
#8677300 - 07/24/08 05:48 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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you should separate cloning and isolation in your mind. but you can find traits that you desire by cloning as well but it isnt called isolating. SAY you MSI four jars then case them in four trays , each tray may end up with different dominant substrains.then you clone three solo guys from each tray and grow each out apart from eachother. then you will have twelve trays of solostanding mushrooms to pick the tray that has the traits that you like. like size, potentsy :ect. this isnt really isolating its just cloning for the traits that you like. anyone correct me if im wrong anywhere cuz im new.
-------------------- grind
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Blumpy
MycoNovice



Registered: 07/24/08
Posts: 16
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
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Re: First Bulk Grow w/Pics! [Re: chobumms]
#8677409 - 07/24/08 06:32 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hot eh? She's a new superhero
Shroom Girl!
-------------------- What is Real?
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roquet
Expat tippler



Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 1,200
Loc: Dubai بجدية عربي...
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Re: First Bulk Grow w/Pics! [Re: seven]
#8677471 - 07/24/08 07:05 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
seven said: i dont understand what you mean by useing a fruit for isolation. by the end of a MS grow you are limited to only a few substrainS. if you are trying to acheive an isolate, you have to start with spores on agar. or am i missing something?
You don't need agar for isolation. Take tissue from a fruit and add it to LC to clone its genetics. That's an isolate. Grows from that LC will produce fruits with identical genetics, like identical twins. Doing it from fruits is the same principle as observing myc growth on agar.
You say there are many less substrains in a tray of fruits compared to a petri dish of multispore. Interesting idea but I don't know if that's true or not. What makes me question it is looking at pics of agar work, there don't seem to be a huge number of substrains to start with. People seem able to isolate in only a couple of transfers. And how do you know how many different substrains are on a tray of fruits?
Edited by roquet (07/24/08 09:57 PM)
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Alcebiades
Stranger thanMost

Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 39
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
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Re: First Bulk Grow w/Pics! [Re: seven]
#8678230 - 07/24/08 10:30 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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So the idea is to do a MS isolation, then use it in a grow and find out if you like the phenotypes it produces. If you don't like the phenotype, do another MS isolation until you get what you want. THEN clone the best specimen?
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
Edited by Alcebiades (07/24/08 11:31 PM)
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roquet
Expat tippler



Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 1,200
Loc: Dubai بجدية عربي...
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Re: First Bulk Grow w/Pics! [Re: Alcebiades]
#8678807 - 07/25/08 12:41 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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I don't know what "phenotype" means but it's only possible to isolate once, ie. you can't isolate and then isolate from the isolate, if that's what you meant. Isolation is always from MS, the only difference is if it's MS on agar or MS fruits. Either way you clone what you like and keep it for future grows. What are phenotypes? I've never heard them brought into isolation/cloning (which are the same thing) discussion.
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Alcebiades
Stranger thanMost

Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 39
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
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Re: First Bulk Grow w/Pics! [Re: roquet]
#8679351 - 07/25/08 06:21 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Genotype: The genetic makeup of any given organism (i.e. ATCGTTACA). Phenotype: The physical characteristics which are produced by said genetic makeup.
As I don't have a genetic sequencer, I'll have no idea what the genotype of an isolate is. I have to rely on the phenotype to let me know whether it has what I want. What I was asking wasn't if I could isolate an isolate further by cloning, but rather clone a specific fruit (namely a large, free standing one) from my isolate to get that particular trait.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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roquet
Expat tippler



Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 1,200
Loc: Dubai بجدية عربي...
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Re: First Bulk Grow w/Pics! [Re: Alcebiades]
#8679364 - 07/25/08 06:49 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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but if you grow from an isolate, all your fruits will have the same genetics. So if you clone one, it will have exactly the same genetics as your original isolate. Am I missing something?
Obviously not all the fruits from an isolate grow will look identical. Environmental conditions will vary even within the same tray. Like which fruit gets to suck up a particularly nutritious nugget of horse poo, or whatever. But, large or small, all those fruits will have identical genetics.
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seven
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Registered: 06/09/08
Posts: 1,478
Loc: north carolina
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Re: First Bulk Grow w/Pics! [Re: roquet]
#8679385 - 07/25/08 07:12 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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if you think about it. when you use agar to acheive an isolate you are also choosing the fastest rhizo growth cuting away from the weak myc until you have a pure strong plate that colonizes fast all togather. you are isolating that growth thus the word isolate... if you clone a fruit to agar it will sector out. more than one substrain. you would then have to transfer i peice from each sector and grow them out to see which has the trait you are looking for.
-------------------- grind
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seven
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Registered: 06/09/08
Posts: 1,478
Loc: north carolina
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Re: First Bulk Grow w/Pics! [Re: seven]
#8679403 - 07/25/08 07:30 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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if anyone is interested most of my knowledge in mycology has came from searching and reading about RR's experiments and findings. i have absorbed great knowledge from the member AGAR . IMO they are both very professional and have contributed to mycology in very large ways. there are others thet have helped me as well .tripsis and Blutjager are both solid sources of knowledge. well thats my recomended reading!!!!!!
-------------------- grind
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roquet
Expat tippler



Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 1,200
Loc: Dubai بجدية عربي...
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Re: First Bulk Grow w/Pics! [Re: seven]
#8679406 - 07/25/08 07:32 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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that's not how I understand cloning to work. I thought a tissue clone results in identical genetics, like an identical twin.
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wisp

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 5,304
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Re: First Bulk Grow w/Pics! [Re: roquet]
#8679451 - 07/25/08 07:57 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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A single fruit can be composed of several sub-strains, so cloning from a mushroom without going via the route of agar, can still result in several sub-strains.
To end up with a desirable isolate, there are two options. You can start from mutlispore on agar, isolate several desirable looking sub-strains and then fruit each individually to see which is the best. Alternatively, you can start by growing straight from multispore, picking the mushroom with the most desirable phenotype, then clone that to agar to test whether it is composed of more than one sub-strain. If so, wait for it to sector out, isolate and then fruit each one, to test which is the most desirable sub-strain.
Edited by wisp (07/25/08 08:07 AM)
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seven
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Registered: 06/09/08
Posts: 1,478
Loc: north carolina
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Re: First Bulk Grow w/Pics! [Re: wisp]
#8679581 - 07/25/08 08:56 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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i guess this would be getting into: does more than one substrain give a mushroom its phisical traits when cloned? i would guess the reason a clone looks the same as the fruit you cloned it from is because it has the same few substrains left over from the (multispore fungus war) as the fruit you cloned it from. seems like the dominate traits will become dominate again in the clone grow. but an isolate is an isolate because you isolate it. this is my understanding i think ultimately you are trying to find a good producing ,fast colonizing substrain. or in cloning select group of substrains . in isolating i think you are trying to find the result of the best performing(mateing pair of hyphae) which is what i understand a strain to be. i would need to research somemore but im pretty sure i am correct. anyone feel free to correct better my understanding.
-------------------- grind
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wisp

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 5,304
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Re: First Bulk Grow w/Pics! [Re: seven]
#8679598 - 07/25/08 09:02 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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I would think that if you clone a set of substrains, those substrains are not forever locked together, but may separate in subsequent grows, giving numerous fruits of different phenotypes. This is why it is desirable to isolate a single substrain of proven fruiting ability, to give consistent results and flushes. Working with a set of compatible substrains is still allowing for variation and unpredictability.
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seven
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Registered: 06/09/08
Posts: 1,478
Loc: north carolina
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Re: First Bulk Grow w/Pics! [Re: wisp]
#8679603 - 07/25/08 09:04 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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correction^ the result of a compatable pair of hyphae is what i understand a substrain to be , not a strain. i need to read more about spore germination . but i think my basic description of cloning, isolation, and substrains are correct.
-------------------- grind
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seven
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Registered: 06/09/08
Posts: 1,478
Loc: north carolina
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Re: First Bulk Grow w/Pics! [Re: seven]
#8679653 - 07/25/08 09:17 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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that seems true ... if you want consistantly identical mushrooms, an isolate is the way to go. in cloning it seems possable that a trait in one of the other substrains could become dominate or show itsself. i bet grow variables might play a part in this.
-------------------- grind
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Hattori Hanzo
Are You Experienced?



Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 473
Loc: South of the Mason Dixie ...
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
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Re: First Bulk Grow w/Pics! [Re: seven]
#8681238 - 07/25/08 05:33 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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awesome post. This one is getting bookmarked!!
LONG LIVE AGAR!!! RR YOU DA MAN!!! ROBANERO YOU ROCK!!!!! BLUGJAGER IS THE REASON I'M DOING GRAIN!!!!!
   
    
H.H.
BEAUTIFUL FLUSH, Alcebiades!!! 5 Shrooms to you!!!
-------------------- First Grow Log
GT&TX DoubleTubs
Malabars and Hawaiians
Keep your ideals high enough to inspire you and low enough to encourage you. --unknown
 
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letsdothis
Littering and smokin' the reefer



Registered: 02/18/08
Posts: 16
Loc: North Texas
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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Re: First Bulk Grow w/Pics! [Re: robanero]
#8681286 - 07/25/08 05:45 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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The Mushroom Cultivator written by Stamets and Chilton
Page 153 shows a picture of an entire tray of cubes growing almost at a 45 degree angle towards the light. The caption reads "Characteristic phototropic response of P. cubensis toward light"
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"erotic or not, this is 'mushroom sex'." The Mushroom Cultivator
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