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dill705
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Determinism or Free Will?
#8669665 - 07/22/08 10:36 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Is the universe changing and evolving based solely on the past and what has happened in it?
Does sentient life truly have free will? Or is it all determined by the past and current psychological state?
If the answer to the first question is yes, then shouldn't the answer be determinism for life as well? Or does intelligence really give rise to free will?
Please respond as Cervantes has asked for proper debate as that is the point of this forum.
-------------------- My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end. -Icelander- I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW! ~dill705~
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Sleepwalker
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Re: Determinism or Free Will? [Re: dill705]
#8669753 - 07/22/08 11:04 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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I see determinism and free will...both as being true. As a conscious being, I seem to have the ability to make choices, or a very convincing illusion of such.
Here's the thing...even if I have the ability to make choices regardless of the past, aka free will, where does that leave me? If I start doing things against all rationality, just because I can? I'll be labeled insane. As it actually goes, I decide to do the things I do, under my own free will, because of what happened in my past. Free will ends up going right back to determinism.
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dill705
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Re: Determinism or Free Will? [Re: Sleepwalker]
#8669778 - 07/22/08 11:12 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Free will doesn't require you to make decisions independent of the past.
Determinism actually would fix your last statement as such:
*As it actually goes, I decide to do the things I do, because of what happened in the past and could have choosen no differently because there were no other options that I would have choosen except what I did indeed choose.*
-------------------- My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end. -Icelander- I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW! ~dill705~
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Cameron
Too Many Words



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Re: Determinism or Free Will? [Re: dill705]
#8669807 - 07/22/08 11:20 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think it's easy to point at the past and claim that it's an unbroken chain and that it all followed suit accordingly, but if the future isn't obvious to us right now, I don't believe it. There are too many variables, too many intricacies, and too many possible neural connections which could easily 'disrupt' events if they were played out a second time. I think that our complexity, in terms of reactions to stimuli, negates determinism; though, we are still very heavily influenced by external circumstances which are out of our control.
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Sleepwalker
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Re: Determinism or Free Will? [Re: dill705]
#8669810 - 07/22/08 11:21 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Ah, gotcha. Well I will say this: free will doesn't equate with true freedom.
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dill705
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Re: Determinism or Free Will? [Re: Cameron]
#8669881 - 07/22/08 11:38 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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>if the future isn't obvious to us right now, I don't believe it.
Perhaps we just can't always conceve it. Our intellect only goes so far you know. It has been thought that a powerful enough supercomputer may be able to predict the future, but imagine how intense that technology would have to be.
>There are too many variables, too many intricacies, and too many possible neural connections which could easily 'disrupt' events if they were played out a second time.
But those variables were assigned values when they played out, and those values were derived from past events. I agree that everything is intricate, just look at gravity, it affects everything, but know one really knows how just yet.
I don't really understand what you mean by nea=ural connections though. But since they have played out already, why would they, or better yet, how could they play out differently the second time around?
>I think that our complexity, in terms of reactions to stimuli, negates determinism; though, we are still very heavily influenced by external circumstances which are out of our control.
This is where brain states and behavior kicks in. Your specific "mindset" at the moment of any stimulus determins your reaction.
And we are influenced by external stimuli, but if they are all determinined by the past, then so are the reactions to the stimuli.
-------------------- My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end. -Icelander- I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW! ~dill705~
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dill705
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Re: Determinism or Free Will? [Re: dill705]
#8669972 - 07/22/08 11:58 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Just so that everyone knows, I really would like to believe in Free Will, I like the idea, it's kinda romantic in a way. But it's so hard to shoot down determinism.
Someone please give an argument for free will that can't be refuted, please!!!!
-------------------- My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end. -Icelander- I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW! ~dill705~
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DieCommie


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Re: Determinism or Free Will? [Re: dill705]
#8670135 - 07/23/08 12:50 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Edited by DieCommie (11/09/16 02:52 PM)
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hamandcheese
Sandwich


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Re: Determinism or Free Will? [Re: DieCommie]
#8670467 - 07/23/08 03:12 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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this debate must be broken down in order to achieve an answer. and it is a multi tier question where concrete answers are tough to comeby. but ill try my best to use logic to decide.
1)do you believe determinism exists?
2) does free will exist?
3) can they coexist?
when you answer theese questions there are 3 possible out comes.
A)if both 1 and 2 are true then 3 must also be true. (compatibolism) B)if 1 is true but 2 is false then 3 must be false (strict determinism) C) if 1 is false then you need not ponder ? 2 and three because they have been decided by the firschoice. that is 2 Must be true and 3 must be false. (libertarianism)
deciding directly whether you came to your answers by way of free will or determinism is a bit of a "chicken/egg question"
but please try to decide(as best you can) which conclusion you came about before reading further.
i would venture to say that proir expeirences have created a casual link causing you to think one way as opposed to another. to "chose" otherwise would be Irrational. and thusly would eliminate the chance of free will. and while this does not eliminate the possibility of free will it does confirm the existance of determenism.
there for because a certian level of determinism does exist C is not possible. look at itself as soon as you answer no to ?1 ?2+3 are "determined" for you.
perfect predicablity implies strict determinism. In order for this to exist it must be predictable what conclusion you come to before you tell me. and the only way for strict determinism to exist is if the determined conclusion we're B. so therefore strict determinism exists if everyone arrives at the conclusion of B.
therefore if anyone arrives at a different conclusion then strict determinism is false.
so now A is the only choice left as your choice was arrived at by determinism, but strict determinisms is elinamted if you OR anyone else choses anything but B.
but let us look at from the other way. suppose you don't think determinism exists and that the out come is based on free will alone.
this thought pattern would lead you to answer No to #1 and because you think that you cause your self to answer yes to #2 and no to #3. because of your first choice you no longer have a choice in answering 2and three and thus have just exhibited an excellent case of determinism.
so they're are only two possible out comes.... either everyone arrives at conclusion B or regardless of what conclusions are acheived (as long as some one choses something other than B) A is the only logical answer.
so tell me what conclusion did you come to? A? B? or C?
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Icelander
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Re: Determinism or Free Will? [Re: hamandcheese]
#8670917 - 07/23/08 09:02 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm going to go of topic and ask how does this question make any difference at all to how we live our lives?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ahimsa
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Re: Determinism or Free Will? [Re: dill705]
#8670981 - 07/23/08 09:27 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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The universe is changing. So are we. Whatever we do is determined partly by our will (which is free) and the possibilities allowed by the external world. The result is the application of a free will, in a, by the past determined situation (which is not free for us to determine as it is as it comes). Hence, since our actions determine the external world and the external world determines the degree of application of our free will, i'd say we decide how free we can be.
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dill705
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Re: Determinism or Free Will? [Re: DieCommie]
#8672153 - 07/23/08 02:37 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Interesting, though it seems to depend on what it itself says is unproven in either direction. I'll have to read this through again when I have time.
-------------------- My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end. -Icelander- I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW! ~dill705~
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dill705
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Re: Determinism or Free Will? [Re: hamandcheese]
#8672176 - 07/23/08 02:42 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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I call foul.
If you answer yes to free will that doesn't prove free will. It just proves that you believe you do, which could be determined by your psychology, or simply the psychology of humans, who tend to try to prove things wrong. Which of course would be determined, and not free.
Take a look a John W. Bender and the prediction room. He argues for compatibilism, although I feel he does so poorly.
-------------------- My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end. -Icelander- I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW! ~dill705~
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dill705
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Re: Determinism or Free Will? [Re: Icelander]
#8672187 - 07/23/08 02:44 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm going to respond that it doesn't in a drect sense, but later when I have time, I'm going to post up a theory I just came up with based on determinisms truth.
Perhaps you will like it. It envolves determinism, time, and god.
-------------------- My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end. -Icelander- I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW! ~dill705~
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Determinism or Free Will? [Re: dill705]
#8672648 - 07/23/08 04:27 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
dill705 said: Interesting, though it seems to depend on what it itself says is unproven in either direction.
Right, there is no conclusive evidence either way at the moment. Upward causation is explicitly shown so we know it exists. But downward causation has not been shown either way.
I have a sneaking suspicion that maybe this is the future of science (long term, thousands of years). We have have reduced alot of phenomenon to the low level interactions. Some, like life and consciousness, resist this. Scientists have been trying to reduce them to basic parts for a long time, and haven't succeeded. Perhaps, instead of just 'trying harder', a paradigm shift from reductionism to the study of emergence will yield better results (thats basically what biologists do now). If that is so, science of the future will have a kind of symmetry where basic laws exist at the very bottom (as they do for us), but also at the very top. In between (in the middle) would be the gray area where we are not sure what set of laws (top or bottom) to use (maybe smells alot like the disparity between relativity and quantum you may have heard of).
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Diaboleros
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Re: Determinism or Free Will? [Re: DieCommie]
#8672812 - 07/23/08 05:15 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Our mind is dual, it exists out of two parts. There is the "I", free will, which is the thing inside your mind which makes the decisions. And there is the "me", which is basicly your ego and works completely automatic, like a determnistic robot. If it weren't for the "I", we would all be like robots and not being able to make any choice at all, because all choices would be automated. But the "I" part of our mind, which is the consciousness, kinda like observes this automatic robot which I call "me", and can manipulte that automatic deterministic robot that we call ourselves. That is free will. The ability to change yourself. Free will doesn't come like that, it's something you need to practise.
I know I have free will, because I can change myself into what I want to. I can choose to believe what I want, I can choose to be what I want. However this is not easy, and doesn't come like that. It takes time and control and mastery over the mind.
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dill705
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Re: Determinism or Free Will? [Re: DieCommie]
#8672835 - 07/23/08 05:23 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Very interest post. I can certainly see a paradigm shift of that sort.
Thanks for sharing It really made me think.
-------------------- My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end. -Icelander- I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW! ~dill705~
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dill705
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Re: Determinism or Free Will? [Re: Diaboleros]
#8672905 - 07/23/08 05:46 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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>Our mind is dual, it exists out of two parts. There is the "I", free will, which is the thing inside your mind which makes the decisions. And there is the "me", which is basicly your ego and works completely automatic, like a determnistic robot. If it weren't for the "I", we would all be like robots and not being able to make any choice at all, because all choices would be automated. But the "I" part of our mind, which is the consciousness, kinda like observes this automatic robot which I call "me", and can manipulte that automatic deterministic robot that we call ourselves. That is free will. The ability to change yourself. Free will doesn't come like that, it's something you need to practise.
Your take on Freud is a little off, but I think your saying that decision making is free will, just in fancier words, right?
Since decision making is all controlled by the interaction of the minds drives, infantile wishes, and the Super Ego's censor against those impulses, it would be thought that a copmlete map of a person "psychology" would show what that individual would choose.
Determinism doesn't take away the choice, it says that given the exact same circumstances (as if you were taken back in time to do something over again, but had no knowledge of any of the future) you would always choose the same thing, that you could never in fact, choose anything different than what you did indeed choose.
-------------------- My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end. -Icelander- I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW! ~dill705~
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hamandcheese
Sandwich


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Re: Determinism or Free Will? [Re: Diaboleros]
#8672938 - 07/23/08 05:56 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
dill705 said: I call foul.
If you answer yes to free will that doesn't prove free will. It just proves that you believe you do, which could be determined by your psychology, or simply the psychology of humans, who tend to try to prove things wrong. Which of course would be determined, and not free.
Take a look a John W. Bender and the prediction room. He argues for compatibilism, although I feel he does so poorly.
your right my saying that free will exists is not enough to prove that it does. however STRICT(total) determinism requires TOTAL predictability IMO. and the only thing that truly prevents perfect predictability is the unpredictability of choice.however lack of perfect predictability is not evidence enough to prove that it does not exist. and that is important to understand.
I'm not trying to prove that either exists. instead i'm try to prove that neither CAN"T and therefore doesn't exist. and in this closed sitiuation there are three possibiltiies.
W) the answer you chose was true. X) the answer the answer you chose was false. Y) All answers are true Z) No answer is true.
Z) there must be a true answer for if there is not neither determinsm nor freewill exist and thats just not possible as far as i can tell.
Y) All answers can not be true as they are mutually exclusive of eachother. if A is true B and C must be false, if B is true A and C must be false etc. that is to say no two answers can be correct at the same time.
X) it is possible that the answer you chose was in fact incorrect whether you know it or not.
BUT in order for strict determinism to exist alone the answer MUST be B. but if the laws of perfect predictablity are broken and one (by way of free will) choses anything other than B then B alone can not be the correct answer, and nor can all, and ther must be a correct answer. which leaves the options of A and C available.
So suppose you (by way of freewiil have you) chose answer C. Inorder for this answer to be both correct and freely chosen determinism can not exist at all. But if determinism does not exist than A must be false, and so must B. This leave quite a problem ! now the ONLY POSSIBLE ANSWER IS C. but if that is true then you infact had no choice in the matter since C is the only answer that could be true inthis case you MUST CHOSE C. and that my freind is determinsm, your actions being decided by a force other than you own free will. so threfore C can not be true because in order for it to be so your had to have come to that decisions by way of free will alone.
that leaves A as the only selectable answer.
while you could make some arguement for why A is not true, no arguement for why B or C is correct is viable. Because in my chosing A i have defied B's garuanteed existance. and C is not chosable with out directly contridicting itself. and X and Y are also not viable solutions as shown above.
W) therefore the only answer I can chose and be correct is A. since with A i have both exhibited freewill to chose as i wish but at the same time was force by determinism to chose as i did, and with all other answers my duality of choice and forced decision making can not muatually exist.
don't get me wrong and think my this that i think I "know" the answer.. im just saying as far asI SEE IT A is the only logical answer that can at the be wholely true.
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burgatory
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Re: Determinism or Free Will? [Re: hamandcheese]
#8673017 - 07/23/08 06:15 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Both free will and determinism exist simultaneously. The thing must been seen holistically. The "whole thing is doing me, but I'm doing it". It's easy to see it when you withdraw from the subject-object distinction and the idea of an outside world. If you can understand that it's all in your mind, you can't posit the idea of anything happening at all. In this way there's nothing to accept or reject, no questions to posit or answer. Even "why" becomes meaningless, because there's nothing to ask the question about. Imagine if it all were one person just sitting there in a room, imagining the whole thing. There's perhaps interesting questions to ask regarding the structure of things, but these should be artistic questions not scientific questions.
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Wherever the hero may wander, whatever he may do, he is ever in the presence of his own essence — for he has the perfected eye to see. There is no separateness. Thus, just as the way of social participation may lead in the end to a realization of the All in the individual, so that of exile brings the hero to the Self in all. joseph campbell For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. jesus
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