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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Wanton terrorism
    #867127 - 09/06/02 11:57 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

It is a scandal in contemporary international law, don't forget,
that while "wanton destruction of towns, cities and villages" is a
war crime of long standing, the bombing of cities from airplanes
goes not only unpunished but virtually unaccused. Air bombardment
is state terrorism, the terrorism of the rich. It has burned up
and blasted apart more innocents in the past six decades than have
all the antistate terrorists who ever lived. Something has
benumbed our consciousness against this reality. In the United
States we would not consider for the presidency a man who had once
thrown a bomb into a crowded restaurant, but we are happy to elect
a man who once dropped bombs from airplanes that destroyed not
only restaurants but the buildings that contained them and the
neighborhoods that surrounded them. I went to Iraq after the Gulf
war and saw for myself what the bombs did; "wanton destruction" is
just the term for it.

C. Douglas Lummis, political scientist {1}


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
Not here
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Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,499
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Ca...
Re: Wanton terrorism [Re: Xlea321]
    #867137 - 09/06/02 12:00 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

You seem to have forgoten that the WTC trade centre attacks justify murdering reams of civilians in non-US countries.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,268
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: Wanton terrorism [Re: Xlea321]
    #867194 - 09/06/02 12:38 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Please explain to me how we should respond to our current antagonists. Feel free to go into detail.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Wanton terrorism [Re: wingnutx]
    #867241 - 09/06/02 01:10 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

When the IRA bombed Britain we didn't drop daisy-cutters on Dublin and call it a great victory.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,268
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: Wanton terrorism [Re: Xlea321]
    #867255 - 09/06/02 01:23 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Of course we didn't. Britain handled their own domestic terrorist issues.

BTW, Dublin is part of the Irish Republic, not Northern Ireland. The IRA is not particularly welcome there.


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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,268
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: Wanton terrorism [Re: Xlea321]
    #867262 - 09/06/02 01:29 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Well, if you ever get around to backing up your claims with documentation, I will read it in a couple of weeks.

I'll be on reserve duty, learning how to kill babies and such.

Seeya :smile:


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Wanton terrorism [Re: wingnutx]
    #867266 - 09/06/02 01:33 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Of course we didn't. Britain handled their own domestic terrorist issues.

So why didn't they drop bombs on Dublin? You dropped bombs on Afghanistan because Osama lived there. Why didn't we drop bombs on Ireland because the IRA leaders lived there?

BTW, Dublin is part of the Irish Republic, not Northern Ireland. The IRA is not particularly welcome there.

What? Do you have the first clue about who the IRA are? Do you know what a catholic is? Do you know what the main denomination in Eire is? Do you know first grade history of Eire and the IRA?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,268
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: Wanton terrorism [Re: Xlea321]
    #867279 - 09/06/02 01:41 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

OK, one last response.

My family is Irish Catholic and Protestant, in an American sort of way. They have the red hair and big foreheads to prove it. (Luckily, I am an adopted Dago with dashing good looks)

Ireland proper would much rather that Britain keep Ulster at this point. They don't want to inherit that festering quagmire.

In the words of P.J. O'Rourke, the Northern ireland fighting is "the Catholics who don't go to church fighting the Protestants who don't go to church."

The IRA is Catholic only in a cultural sense, and is in fact far more devoted to marxism. They are far from devout Catholics. They simply hate Britain more than they love anything else, and they mostly love being criminal tough guy. Ditto their unionist adversaries.

For a fascinating read, try "Killing Rage" by Eamon Collins, who was an IRA honcho until he quit and they whacked him.

Thank you, and goodnight.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Wanton terrorism [Re: wingnutx]
    #867879 - 09/06/02 09:12 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Sounds like you got most of your information about Ireland from watching "The quiet man".

reland proper would much rather that Britain keep Ulster at this point.

Nope. Not in a million years.

The IRA is Catholic only in a cultural sense

Pity they keep bombing protestants.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinevatoloco
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Registered: 01/30/02
Posts: 7,653
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Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST [Re: Xlea321]
    #868275 - 09/07/02 06:45 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)



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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Wanton terrorism [Re: vatoloco]
    #868536 - 09/07/02 09:43 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

What are you talking about? Do you need a source to explain that the war was carried out from 15,000 feet?

I don't have the time to educate you in the ways of the world son. Ask a teacher to help you.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinefoghorn
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Registered: 12/14/01
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Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
Re: Wanton terrorism [Re: Xlea321]
    #868680 - 09/07/02 11:21 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

front-line/trench/ground warfare is generally fought between 2 or more armies.

this obviously was not the case for the Hutu in Rwanda, or in Nazi Germany for the Jews/Gypsies/Homosexuals, and these 'wars' are considered as some of the worst acts of genocide imaginable.

now, only 10 years later from the massacres in Rwanda I see a similar situation; 2 sides to a conflict in which 1 has (or should i say had) no chance of defending itself, which personally, I think is nothing less than a slaughter. But this war is not a slaughter or an act of genocide; no, it is a noble war, and the winners are merely 'retaliating', doing what is neccessary for the safety of it's people.

the point im trying to reach is, anyone, any government and any peoples, can RATIONALIZE a mass killing/murder... it is one of the remarkable traits of the human psyche, that we can rationalize the deaths of other human beings.

hitler did it, hitler's followers did it, and the people of germany at one point assumed it...

the human mind has historically proven again and again, that it can rationalize a slaughter into a war.

hope i projected the idea i was aiming for


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Invisiblepuscle
genius of love
Registered: 01/07/01
Posts: 4,539
Loc: NY
Re: Wanton terrorism [Re: Xlea321]
    #868742 - 09/07/02 12:21 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

In reply to:

What are you talking about? Do you need a source to explain that the war was carried out from 15,000 feet?




Does it really matter? Would you feel better if our assault came from lower flying aircraft?


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
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Re: Wanton terrorism [Re: Xlea321]
    #869518 - 09/07/02 05:52 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

So aerial bombardment is a war crime. No big deal, then -- just get the UN to outlaw bombers as well as nuclear weapons and chemical weapons and biological weapons. It will certainly lower defense budgets.

Of course, by the same argument, ground-to-ground missiles, ship-to-ground missiles, air-to-ground missiles, mortars and artillery will need to be outlawed as well.

This leaves tanks and hand-held weapons as acceptable. Sounds fair to me. It makes sense to fight wars today using techniques perfected in the Great War. It certainly levels the playing field and allows just about any illiterate warlord in any country with more than a hundred goats a fair chance to take over his neighbor's country.

Sort of a "Marquis of Queensbury" set of rules for the 21st Century. I like it. I like it a lot. But why stop there? If the idea is to eliminate civilian deaths, it's even better to go with the "Duel of Champions" concept. Each country selects their very best fighter, the two are placed naked and weaponless in a ring, and they fight to the death. The winner's country gets to take over the loser's country.

pinky


--------------------


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Wanton terrorism [Re: Phred]
    #869669 - 09/08/02 12:19 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

It makes sense to fight wars today using techniques

Lets not kid ourselves. Dropping ten thousand pound bombs from airplanes onto utterly defenceless people isn't a war. It's simple terrorist bloodlust.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,186
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Wanton terrorism [Re: Xlea321]
    #869750 - 09/08/02 04:15 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

In reply to:

Lets not kid ourselves. Dropping ten thousand pound bombs from airplanes onto utterly defenceless people isn't a war. It's simple terrorist bloodlust.



And killing 3000 people with hijacked airliners isn't?

At least the military doesn't deliberately target civilians.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Wanton terrorism [Re: Xlea321]
    #869767 - 09/08/02 04:23 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Dropping ten thousand pound bombs from airplanes onto utterly defenceless people isn't a war.

Neither is lobbing a mortar round or an artillery shell onto utterly defenseless people.
pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Wanton terrorism [Re: Phred]
    #869975 - 09/08/02 11:35 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Remember we are talking about Afghanistan here. In this "war" one side had aircraft, 10,000lb bombs and depleted uranium weapons. The other had a few rifles and lived in caves. If you are so delusional you want to call that a "war" then go ahead.

btw, the next time you walk by a baby in a pram, drag it out and kick it to death. You could call that "self-defense".


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhluck
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Registered: 04/11/99
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Re: Wanton terrorism [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #870174 - 09/08/02 01:41 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

He didn't say the WTC attacks weren't terrorism.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Wanton terrorism [Re: Xlea321]
    #870421 - 09/08/02 09:24 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Remember we are talking about Afghanistan here.

Who you calling "we", paleface? Mr. C. Douglas Lummis, political scientist, was speaking of aerial bombardment per se, NOT about Afghanistan. I quote:

"Air bombardment... has burned up and blasted apart more innocents in the past six decades than have all the antistate terrorists who ever lived."

Six decades ago World War II was in full swing. The London blitz, Dresden, etc. I note you chose not to mention the bombing of London in your other post on the evils of aerial bombardment, or the bombing of Guernica. I guess it doesn't count as an evil tactic if the country doing the bombing is the one who initiated the war.

"...we are happy to elect a man who once dropped bombs from airplanes..."

Which politician did the American voters elect who once dropped bombs from planes onto Afghanistan? The military service of all elected American politicians I know of PRECEDED the actions of the UN coalition in Afghanistan in 2001.

"I went to Iraq after the Gulf war and saw for myself what the bombs did..."

Iraq is not Afghanistan.

"...'wanton destruction' is just the term for it."

I imagine if Mr. C. Douglas Lummis had visited London in 1941 he would have noticed some wanton destruction, too.

In this "war" one side had aircraft, 10,000lb bombs and depleted uranium weapons. The other had a few rifles and lived in caves.

What's your point?

If you are so delusional you want to call that a "war" then go ahead.

The relative sophistication of the armaments of the opposing sides is not the defining criterion for what constitutes warfare.

btw, the next time you walk by a baby in a pram, drag it out and kick it to death. You could call that "self-defense".

What on earth does that non sequitur have to do with anything? Three words for you, Alex -- "take your medication".

pinky


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