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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Philosophical Debate [Re: Veritas]
    #8668945 - 07/22/08 09:15 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

NONE of these goals are furthered through negative descriptions of other posters, attempts to psychoanalyze other posters...




It is necessary to establish a context though, which considers either debaters subjective worldviews.

There is little difference between revealing that a persons ideas are silly, and revealing that this actual person is silly.

What if you took the word negative out of this statement?


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Philosophical Debate [Re: daytripper23]
    #8668966 - 07/22/08 09:20 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Even positive descriptions of other posters are irrelevant to the debate of their ideas.  However, compliments are much less likely to result in defensiveness and a degeneration of the discussion. 

There is a great deal of difference between demonstrating through the use of logical arguments that an idea is silly, and stating that the person is silly.  Debate is about the ideas, NOT the idea-generators.  If someone wants to identify themselves with their ideas, that's their business.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Philosophical Debate [Re: Veritas]
    #8668975 - 07/22/08 09:22 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

It's not the rules I'm specifically talking about, though you can continue making your assumptions. 

it's mainly about those who resort to labeling an aspect of a discussion as a fallacy, as a means to avoid deeper discussion, and make themselves seem "right".  I have seen it countless times.

not only that, but the veterans here imply personalisms all the time to other members.  and this is supposed to be considered "emotional maturity". :puke:


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Philosophical Debate [Re: Veritas]
    #8668978 - 07/22/08 09:23 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

No i mean take out the whole spectrum of positive and negative.

When to people are speaking about philosophy - what they believe, and how they live, there is no way for it to be impersonal.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Philosophical Debate [Re: deranger]
    #8668988 - 07/22/08 09:25 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Your posts have referred to the rules, so I did assume we were discussing the rules.  I cannot read your mind.

When someone clearly demonstrates that another poster is utilizing a logical fallacy, this is somehow avoiding a deeper discussion?  :confused:  If you've seen it "countless" times, perhaps you can find one example?  Ditto for the "implied" personalisms by the veterans.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Philosophical Debate [Re: daytripper23]
    #8668999 - 07/22/08 09:27 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:

When to people are speaking about philosophy - what they believe, and how they live, there is no way for it to be impersonal.




Tell THAT to Diploid. :crazy:

You DO realize you are still OFF TOPIC... no?


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Fiddlesticks.



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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Philosophical Debate [Re: daytripper23]
    #8669007 - 07/22/08 09:29 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
No i mean take out the whole spectrum of positive and negative.

When to people are speaking about philosophy - what they believe, and how they live, there is no way for it to be impersonal.




It's simple:  if your post addresses a negative assertion of WHO you think someone is, rather than addressing their IDEAS, it is against the rules.  Of course our beliefs and lifestyles are personal, and discussing these topics IS the purpose of this forum, but flaming can only detract from that purpose.

There are many times, and your particular episode may be one of them, when the personalism is on the borderline of acceptability.  In those cases, it is a judgment call.  Often it is more effective to "nip it in the bud" before a full-on flame war has ensued, rather than ignoring the subtle personalisms. 


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Philosophical Debate [Re: Veritas]
    #8669011 - 07/22/08 09:30 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

:lol:

fallacies, or rules?


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Philosophical Debate [Re: daytripper23]
    #8669025 - 07/22/08 09:33 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

What?


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Philosophical Debate [Re: Veritas]
    #8669034 - 07/22/08 09:35 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:When someone clearly demonstrates that another poster is utilizing a logical fallacy, this is somehow avoiding a deeper discussion?




when the thread completely turns around, yes.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Philosophical Debate [Re: Rose]
    #8669039 - 07/22/08 09:38 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

In a perfect forum, yes, there could be perfect debates that stay on track thru the whole course of the thread....
But with "control" being an illusion, and the nature of people vs rules, strictness can breed contempt, or even lack of interest....

Maybe I just don't take it all seriously enough, and I am not sure if I can....
I mostly come here to discuss ideas, but not as a given do I come here to "debate"....
And not all forms of philosophy are strictly a debating environment....

The kicker being that one does not have to believe in a topic to debate it and "win"....
Which turns the whole thing into a game of the fastest tongue, and not necessarily a good informative debate....    :ohwell:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Philosophical Debate [Re: daytripper23]
    #8669041 - 07/22/08 09:38 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


:lol:

fallacies, or rules?





How about both?

I realize that there is well intended sentiment to draw the line at personalisms, as a matter of upholding peace around here.

But, where do you draw the line between subjective consideration, and personal?

Nobody has even attempted to address this. A personalism should be neither considered a rule of etiquitte or a fallacy if this cannot be definitively answered. My case is a good example of this, and this is why I posted it.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Philosophical Debate [Re: Veritas]
    #8669055 - 07/22/08 09:43 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SyntheticMInd said:
Quote:

Veritas said:When someone clearly demonstrates that another poster is utilizing a logical fallacy, this is somehow avoiding a deeper discussion?




when the thread completely turns around, yes.




I think Synthetic is talking about a discussion we had yesterday. We were discussing astral projection, and the discussion turned towards: What is real?

I did not want to discuss what is really real... and I said as much to Synth.

This did, in fact, dismiss an interesting line of discussion between Synth and me... and in hindsight, I regret doing it. However... the thread had already been ravaged by SO many fallacies, that by the time Synth and I began our discussion, I was getting fed up.

I dismissed Synth's argument in order to get back on topic... but my need to get back on topic had to do with other posters... not Synth himself.

Synthetic? Am I on to something here? :wink:


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Philosophical Debate [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #8669079 - 07/22/08 09:46 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:

I mostly come here to discuss ideas, but not as a given do I come here to "debate"....




That is fine... but as I'm sure you know, this IS a debate forum.

Quote:


And not all forms of philosophy are strictly a debating environment....





True... but I think M&P is lame as hell, for that very reason.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Philosophical Debate [Re: Rose]
    #8669089 - 07/22/08 09:50 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:Synthetic? Am I on to something here? :wink:




that's one example of how shit gets twisted around here.

but in all honesty, this isn't out of seriousness.  it was started for fun, and just throwing out my opinion.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Philosophical Debate [Re: deranger]
    #8669093 - 07/22/08 09:51 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SyntheticMInd said:

but in all honesty, this isn't out of seriousness.  it was started for fun, and just throwing out my opinion.




And THAT is why I like you.


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Re: Philosophical Debate [Re: Rose]
    #8669102 - 07/22/08 09:52 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

:smile:


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Philosophical Debate [Re: Rose]
    #8669199 - 07/22/08 10:27 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
That is fine... but as I'm sure you know, this IS a debate forum.




Well, I understand that debating is an accepted method in this philosophy and spirituality forum, but not necessarily the rule for the method of discussion....
I am not opposed to debating - not at all....
It IS one of the methods of the exchange of ideas, and some people are very good at it....
But, debating something implies that there is a person that is right, and one is wrong....
Some discussions/debates turn out to be stalemates in the end, and could be no other way....
What works for you in your life methods may not work for me - for reasons neither of us may ever understand because of our own life experiences....

For an example, how can one effectively debate spirituality on either side when the inherent nature of spirituality is subjective....?


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Philosophical Debate [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #8669248 - 07/22/08 10:39 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

You don't have to debate cat, but this IS a debate forum. So chances are, somebody WILL want to debate.

And yes, this is a Spiritual and Philosophical forum... which means we discuss MANY things that can't be answered... or even clearly defined.

This is precisely WHY we should adhere to as many GOOD discussion tactics as we can... we're not gonna' find many answers... but we CAN have good discussions. Fallicies get in the way.

I don't look at this forum as a place for winning or loosing. But what we do in here is a game. And it is no fun to play tag, when a LOUD minority won't play by the rules.

Now... for shit's and giggles... Here's an example of P&S tag.

A: "Tag, you're it!"

B: "No, We are all 'it."

C: "I don't believe 'it' exists."

A: "Go fuck yourselves."

B & C Together: "MOMMY! Waaaaaaa!"


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



Edited by Rose (07/22/08 10:45 PM)


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Philosophical Debate [Re: Rose]
    #8669326 - 07/22/08 10:58 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

:lol:

Yes, "good form" and/or etiquette is a trait that one could hope that most people have and adhere to....
I don't condone personalisms, and I try my best not to do it myself (it seems like a sign of weakness)....
On the other hand, when someone aims one at me, it doesn't bother me either - it usually makes me laugh....!    :ohwell:

D. We are all "it", but there is no "it"....  And now I will go take A's advice and go masturbate....    :muppet:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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