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PowerOfTheCoir
Newbie Sympathizer



Registered: 07/02/08
Posts: 421
Last seen: 14 years, 24 days
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Re: Me too. I cut corners at every step, yet i never get BAD contams [Re: Izord]
#8677607 - 07/24/08 07:43 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Izord said: Hey DJYoshaBYD,
You said
"pressure cooking doesn't "activate the endospores"... lol.. you could probably get a 10 out of 10 if you you used it right... lol"
It's not the pressure cooking, it's the heat and moisture that break their shell and start them growing. Endospores are created to resist times of poor environment so the bacteria can survive. Warmth and moisture and maybe nutrients available signal them to start growing. That's why people soak their grain overnight before pc'ing.
I just found it's easier not to soak at all. Just add ingredients to my jars, put in pressure cooker and pc for an hour then wait till the next day and pc again. I don't even take them out of the pc. Consider that the easy way to soak. And the first pc kills all the stuff outside the endospores, then the signal for the endospore to hatch, just like soaking, and then pc again the next day before new endospores form. It's just like soaking and rinsing, except easier, because it skips those two time consuming steps. I guess it takes me about two minutes to turn off the stove and turn it on again the next day, but I use a timer to clock the actual pc time.
So LOL right back at you, yes my pc technique does "activate" and KILL the endospores.
And their isn't any need for me to flame my needles. I use sterile ones, and cap them, and replace them after a few times. The filter disks they go through are sterile because I keep the pressure cooker closed till the jars are cool and I'm ready to inoculate.
And you are right that I'm successful because I keep the jars closed, I never take off the filter disk till I'm ready to spawn, and I've never had a spawn go bad at that point. I can just look at my jars and see the nice fluffy white ones and by that time they are ready to run the spawn.
The technique requires a Little patience to let that pc sit somewhere overnight with jars inside. But I don't want to work unnecessarily and chunking one jar out of 10 is a lot easier on me that going crazy with Lysol, chlorox, and alcohol. The alcohol belongs in my belly not on a rag to wipe the table. : ) And fuck rinsing grain and soaking. What a hastle!! and Unnecessary. Unless you went to get a prize in Guinness book of world records for least contams. (Or you think toil is a virtue.)
Moderation in everything buddy.
Peace.
You're both right about the endospores, but the "PC activates them" statement is what's so misleading. The PC doesn't do jack either way - hydrating them does. Hydration and cooking happen for you at the same time, so your tek as a whole does activate them and make them vulnerable to the second round in the PC. You would probably also activate them if you did the same technique, but instead of PCing the first time, you just added the water and shook the jars up to wet down the grains. I think you already are saying this, but it's important that new readers understand that heat has nothing to do with endospore germination.
As far as soaking in general goes, it's not just used to germinate endospores. The soak hydrates the seed coat and makes it more flexible. This allows you to get more water into grains during a subsequent simmer and greatly reduces the chance of exploded grains. Putting dry grains and water in a jar and then PCing works too, but with a little more work you can improve the grain moisture content. It's just a matter of what your priorities are (intelligent people pick both techniques).
-------------------- Check out my first ever TEK!
Shroom capsules with the Cap-M-Quik (pics)
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Izord
Stranger



Registered: 02/05/08
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Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
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Re: Me too. I cut corners at every step, yet i never get BAD contams [Re: shevanel]
#8679258 - 07/25/08 05:08 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
shevanel said:
Quote:
Izord said:
I just found it's easier not to soak at all. Just add ingredients to my jars, put in pressure cooker and pc for an hour then wait till the next day and pc again. I don't even take them out of the pc.
Consider that the easy way to soak. I guess it takes me about two minutes to turn off the stove and turn it on again the next day, but I use a timer to clock the actual pc time. .
That sounds lazy & cool but assuming your PC doesn't handle over 20 quarts, who knows but you , I think it's easier to soak 2-3 5 gallon buckets of seed in mesh bags overnight then start running the PC in batches thereafter.
I suppose your method works if your making grain for spawn masters or just a small grow, thats fine.. but if you're trying to nock out more than 10ish jars or so soaking in batches doesn;t seem more wastefull than spending almost 2 days to completely do 1 pc cycle.
I don't understand how anyone would want to Pc jars then wait until the next day to pressure cook the SAME jars again... afterall, isn't that nearly same amount spent soaking grain for 24 hours?
I'm very confused.
Sorry man, It's not two days, it's one day per 7 jars. (My pc holds 7 jars) Yes it's spawn masters, and yes it requires patience. But it's a lot easier because there is no rinsing, soaking, drying steps involved.
All you do is open your baggie of grain you bought from whole foods, put a cup of rye and a cup of water into a quart, put the ring on with a big filter disk instead of a metal cap. and pc for 45 mins, wait overnight and pc for 45 min. Cool, shake, noc. and start the next batch if you want.
I can do 49 jars a week this which is way more than I need. Requires a tiny bit of patience but saves a lot of steps and work.
You have to realize you can do other things while the pc is sitting there. Like read or work or play. It doesn't require any effort on your or my part while it sits.
And why would anyone want to do it this way? Because it's a lot easier. And you're right, it's not for commercial growers who need pounds and pounds of rye ready at one time. But for someone growing at home for themselves, especially the first time it's the easiest way, and maybe the best since the wet grains are never exposed to contamination. It's just kind of idiot-proof.
And because you use exactly the same amount of water and grain each time, once you figure it out, you have a perfect moisture content each time.
KISS = Keep it simple silly.
Edited by Izord (07/25/08 05:17 AM)
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Re: Me too. I cut corners at every step, yet i never get BAD contams [Re: Izord]
#8679456 - 07/25/08 08:00 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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While pf cakes and the process to inoculate them is quite forgiving, proper sterile technique assures a higher level of success.
I always have to roll my eyes at posts that say "I never get contamination", because even with all the precautions I take, I still get them occasionally. Proper technique can reduce contaminants to a nuisance level, but rarely eliminate them completely.
Many drunks make it home from the bar on a regular basis, but we don't recommend drunk driving based on their accounts. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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Bejeezis
Mushaboom


Registered: 01/18/08
Posts: 184
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
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Re: Me too. I cut corners at every step, yet i never get BAD contams [Re: RogerRabbit]
#8679510 - 07/25/08 08:24 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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"Many drunks make it home from the bar on a regular basis, but we don't recommend drunk driving based on their accounts." RR
Priceless
-------------------- ___________________________________________________________
Whether you're here to learn or teach the art of mycology,
do so with an open mind.
My posts are 100% fictional...
I'm just makin it all up!
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sinzok
Stimulant Enthusiast



Registered: 04/11/06
Posts: 372
Loc: New York
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
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Re: Me too. I cut corners at every step, yet i never get BAD contams *DELETED* [Re: Bejeezis]
#8679525 - 07/25/08 08:32 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Post deleted by sinzokReason for deletion: Deleting posts manually sucks.
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Mad River
Reverend, Churchof Todd



Registered: 04/29/08
Posts: 1,114
Loc: The Great Lakes Region, U...
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
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Re: Me too. I cut corners at every step, yet i never get BAD contams [Re: sinzok]
#8679676 - 07/25/08 09:22 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bejeezis said: "Many drunks make it home from the bar on a regular basis, but we don't recommend drunk driving based on their accounts." RR
Priceless
Not really. It's not exactly an accurate metaphor. People sure like to bash things that stray from the status quo around here. If it works for the dude, it works for the dude.
He is not even calling what he does a Tek, or recommending that others do it. He's simply relating what he does that works for him. Maybe it can help other people to find their own middle ground that works for them, that will probably be different from his middle ground.
People who stray from dogma seem to get crucified around here.*
*All opinions expressed in this post are those of a total noob.
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themange
Senior Citizen



Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 2,809
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Re: Me too. I cut corners at every step, yet i never get BAD contams [Re: Mad River]
#8679701 - 07/25/08 09:33 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
People who stray from dogma seem to get crucified around here.*
agreed.
it seems like the initial point of a thread is often lost people condemning the OP's methods. it becomes a "good luck " .."thats a horrible idea" flame fest.
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Bejeezis
Mushaboom


Registered: 01/18/08
Posts: 184
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
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Re: Me too. I cut corners at every step, yet i never get BAD contams [Re: Mad River]
#8679764 - 07/25/08 09:56 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad River said:
Quote:
Bejeezis said: "Many drunks make it home from the bar on a regular basis, but we don't recommend drunk driving based on their accounts." RR
Priceless
Not really. It's not exactly an accurate metaphor. People sure like to bash things that stray from the status quo around here. If it works for the dude, it works for the dude.
He is not even calling what he does a Tek, or recommending that others do it. He's simply relating what he does that works for him. Maybe it can help other people to find their own middle ground that works for them, that will probably be different from his middle ground.
People who stray from dogma seem to get crucified around here.*
*All opinions expressed in this post are those of a total noob.
I disagree! It's a perfect metaphor!
Just like you said, what works for the dude works for the dude. What works for the drunks works for the drunks. And in both cases, it is not the most reliable method to an end. RR isn't saying it won't work or flaming the OP.
The bottom line is: Success cannot be guaranteed but your chances can be improved significantly if you do certain things.
Personally, I am no where near sterile. It works fine, i have contam issues from time to time and I'm sure I'd have less if i went that extra mile... but it works for me. Just like the drunk driving home... it works.... but it's not "playing it safe."
The OP asked if it was luck or if sterile practices were unnecessary and I believe that most of the seasoned mycologists here (save for a few rude individuals) are trying to say "It's not a question of necessity but of what one is willing to risk to save time/effort."
I used to be very sterile when i started this hobby and i had great success... but I also found mycology to be a terribly tedious and time-consuming hobby. I decided to cut corners one by one as i went and now i am at a level where most of the old hands here would prolly shake their head at me. But i also cut my time spent working in half.
What works for you works for you, but that doesn't mean you are doing it the "Best" way, ya know?
Sure, the drunk doesn't HAVE to take a cab or find a DD but his chances of making it home safely are much greater if he does! 
Cheers!
-------------------- ___________________________________________________________
Whether you're here to learn or teach the art of mycology,
do so with an open mind.
My posts are 100% fictional...
I'm just makin it all up!
Edited by Bejeezis (07/25/08 10:11 AM)
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Mad River
Reverend, Churchof Todd



Registered: 04/29/08
Posts: 1,114
Loc: The Great Lakes Region, U...
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Re: Me too. I cut corners at every step, yet i never get BAD contams [Re: Bejeezis]
#8680007 - 07/25/08 11:17 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad River said:Maybe it can help other people to find their own middle ground that works for them...
Quote:
Bejeezis said:I decided to cut corners one by one as i went and now i am at a level where most of the old hands here would prolly shake their head at me. But i also cut my time spent working in half.
That's exactly what I was getting at.
My main problem with the drunk driving analogy is that if you get contaminants, it's an inconvenience and waste of time and maybe money. If you kill or maim yourself or someone else drunk driving, that's another stratosphere altogether.
Peace.  
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Bejeezis
Mushaboom


Registered: 01/18/08
Posts: 184
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
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Re: Me too. I cut corners at every step, yet i never get BAD contams [Re: Mad River]
#8680211 - 07/25/08 12:23 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
If you kill or maim yourself or someone else drunk driving, that's another stratosphere altogether.
LOL ok ok I agree with yout here 
Cheers!
-------------------- ___________________________________________________________
Whether you're here to learn or teach the art of mycology,
do so with an open mind.
My posts are 100% fictional...
I'm just makin it all up!
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Mad River
Reverend, Churchof Todd



Registered: 04/29/08
Posts: 1,114
Loc: The Great Lakes Region, U...
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
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Re: Me too. I cut corners at every step, yet i never get BAD contams [Re: Bejeezis]
#8680245 - 07/25/08 12:32 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Maybe I'm just too literal.
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Izord
Stranger



Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 44
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
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Re: Me too. I cut corners at every step, yet i never get BAD contams [Re: Mad River]
#8680450 - 07/25/08 01:37 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yup drunk driving is bad news. Someone could get killed.
But if you try the No-Soak, No-rinse, Double PC Cook Shake and Noc, the worst that could happen is 7 cups of wasted Rye and 20 minutes of your time gone.
The best is that you get 6 or 7 good spawn masters for 20 minutes of time using just 7 cups of rye, a spore syringe, and NO Chlorox, Lysol or Alcohol.
And here's the exact recipe adjust according to your elevation and pressure cooker. For each quart jar use one cup or 250 ml rye and a little less than a cup, about 220 to 240 ml water depending on how long you cook for. I use about 45 minutes to an hour each time.
Buy some of those big filter disks from here: http://www.mycosupply.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?preadd=action&key=SFDI01
No lime, No calcium.
And don't open your jars till you are ready to spawn some coir or poo or coir/coffee or something.
Good luck.
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veilbreaker
Sour girl


Registered: 06/12/07
Posts: 528
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Re: I cut corners at every step, yet i never get contaims [Re: Kada]
#8680783 - 07/25/08 03:22 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'd say you are lucky.
I did several BRF batches with no contams, even as my technique got less and less sterile. I got pretty cocky about it and didn't understand how anyone could get contamination regularly. And then I did three or four batches with 100% contamination in a row. I got frustrated and quit for a while. I just came back to it and had two more batches contam on me thoroughly. I'm going to get anal again and try one more batch and see what happens.
Be more careful than you think you need to be, I seem to have jinxed myself somehow by getting too lax.
-------------------- People seem not to see that their opinion of the world is also a confession of their character.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Izord
Stranger



Registered: 02/05/08
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Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
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Re: I cut corners at every step, yet i never get contaims [Re: veilbreaker]
#8682098 - 07/25/08 09:59 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
veilbreaker said: I'd say you are lucky.
I did several BRF batches with no contams, even as my technique got less and less sterile. I got pretty cocky about it and didn't understand how anyone could get contamination regularly. And then I did three or four batches with 100% contamination in a row. I got frustrated and quit for a while. I just came back to it and had two more batches contam on me thoroughly. I'm going to get anal again and try one more batch and see what happens.
Be more careful than you think you need to be, I seem to have jinxed myself somehow by getting too lax.
Why don't you try the double pc rye tek? It's easy and idiot proof. : ) LOL!
Does require a TINY bit of patience, but sounds like you've learned that already. What do you have to lose? Iz.
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



Registered: 03/26/03
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Re: I cut corners at every step, yet i never get contaims [Re: Izord]
#8683394 - 07/26/08 08:42 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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It should also be noted that once you've had a trichoderma outbreak, your chances of failure go up exponentially after that. Even a small spot of green on a casing layer can release billions of sticky spores into the air, which stick to your walls, ceiling, carpet, etc.
Once you've been growing for a few years, the procedures required for success become more and more anal for that reason. It should be noted that I try to give advice for the best chance of success. Often, growers can succeed with less precautions, but it's not advisable. In my opinion, the costs of failure even if only 10% of the time, are far more than the care required for repeated success.
As for the no-soak, no-rinse grain prep method, that's what was described in Stamets' The Mushroom Cultivator published in the 80s. Since that time, we've developed better ways of doing grains that result in less sticking and clumping together, but that doesn't mean the old methods don't still work. I wish the best of luck to all, regardless of the methods you use. It's all good. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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shevanel
Gone til November


Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 1,517
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
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Re: I cut corners at every step, yet i never get contaims [Re: RogerRabbit]
#8683978 - 07/26/08 12:22 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Amen.
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seven
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Registered: 06/09/08
Posts: 1,478
Loc: north carolina
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Re: I cut corners at every step, yet i never get contaims [Re: shevanel]
#8685738 - 07/26/08 08:46 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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lol at RR " its all good" . Roger for some reason you remind me of the Bob Ross of cultivation. good point on the mean green.
-------------------- grind
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Juke Adro
I love peach fluff


Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 6,957
Loc: Inside your head
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Re: I cut corners at every step, yet i never get contaims [Re: seven]
#8685837 - 07/26/08 09:07 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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I was a dirty pig for a while, got great results, I didnt even pasteurise my casings and had amazing success, I used to G2G in open air sitting myself and the jars on my carpet with the ducted heating on blowing all over the place..... still with success, I used to inoc jars in the open and pour dishes in open air all with success, got attacked by the green goblin once, everything went to crap after that, and everything I done got hit by contams, it forced me to be as sterile as possible, now I dont G2G sitting on the carpet or inoculate jars while cooking dinner, I pasteurise, I pc every tool, I use spray, I wear gloves, I use a glove box, I use iso, I simmer, I soak, I would never be a dirty bugger again.
-------------------- Someone said: im actually not using ms, im using prints.
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themange
Senior Citizen



Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 2,809
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Re: I cut corners at every step, yet i never get contaims [Re: Juke Adro]
#8685866 - 07/26/08 09:11 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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jesus..and i thought my sig was big
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Juke Adro
I love peach fluff


Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 6,957
Loc: Inside your head
Last seen: 5 years, 9 months
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Re: I cut corners at every step, yet i never get contaims [Re: themange]
#8685897 - 07/26/08 09:16 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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You thought wrong!
-------------------- Someone said: im actually not using ms, im using prints.
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