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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Al Gore propses America gets 100% of its energy from renewable resources by 2018 [Re: dill705]
    #8696993 - 07/29/08 11:34 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

dill705 said:
Each home could likely power itself and pump some into the system.




Nope.  Cells put out about 65 watts per m^2 when the sun is shining directly on them.  If the average home needs about 700 watts, then you could theoretically need no grid energy only during peak solar times.  But you would have none left over.  Then, when its cloudy, night, or not noon you would need to take energy from the grid.  And all this for only 5 trillion dollars...

Its just not good at the moment.  With a few decades of development maybe.

For now the best type of solar is not cells on houses, it is fields of parabolic troughs.

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Offlinedill705
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Re: Al Gore propses America gets 100% of its energy from renewable resources by 2018 [Re: Redstorm]
    #8696994 - 07/29/08 11:34 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

:strokebeard:

You can decide not to, but it sounds like the intelligent thing to do to me.

I would pay for that myself. My understanding is that it's a worthwhile investment.


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Al Gore propses America gets 100% of its energy from renewable resources by 2018 [Re: dill705]
    #8697087 - 07/29/08 11:48 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I would pay for that myself. My understanding is that it's a worthwhile investment.

It's a terrible investment from a financial point of view.

The cost of installing a solar electric system on a house is easily $100,000 or more and it still would barely run just a central AC unit. And then only when it's sunny. And when you go to sell your $300,000 house with $100,000 solar rig for $400,000 and your neighbor is selling the same house minus solar for 25% less, guess which house is going to sell unless you take the loss for the solar system.

Meanwhile, the batteries have to be replaced every few years at the cost of tens of thousands of dollars, and this doesn't address the environmental issues related to all the lead and acids in the batteries. This expense is yet another reason why fewer people will be interested in buying your house compared to your neighbor's.

Solar is not a viable way to produce electricity unless it's done centrally by a utility company to get the benefits of economies of scale.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: Al Gore propses America gets 100% of its energy from renewable resources by 2018 [Re: DieCommie]
    #8697115 - 07/29/08 11:55 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

For now the best type of solar is not cells on houses, it is fields of parabolic troughs.




Hey yeah, did you see that a California utility is now producing electricity by concentrating solar rays onto stirling engines?  Usually they beam them onto PV cells.  I thought that was clever, considering the efficiency of stirling engines.

http://www.stirlingenergy.com/technology/suncatcher.asp


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Al Gore propses America gets 100% of its energy from renewable resources by 2018 [Re: Redstorm]
    #8697431 - 07/29/08 01:10 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

> Who is going to pay for these solar roofs?

Every thirty years... solar cells have a limited lifetime, and their efficiency drops off pretty steeply towards the end of their life.  Although the cells may last forty years, realistically, only the first twenty will be efficient.

Don't forget the cost of batteries (and their pollution, lead, cadmium, etc), inverters, transfer switches, maximum power point trackers, installation, maintenance (replacement batteries, roof cleaners, etc).


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Al Gore propses America gets 100% of its energy from renewable resources by 2018 [Re: Seuss]
    #8698240 - 07/29/08 03:53 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

The price of solar cells are dropping by 90% in a few years because of Nanosolar's new manufacturing process that uses much less silicon and doesn't require a cleanroom. Same technology, but much cheaper. But their entire production output for the next 3 or 4 years has already been bought.

It doesn't solve the baseline issue but it'll make it so that people will actually want to put panels on their roofs just from an economic point of view. Which is a solution everyone can agree on :smile:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: Al Gore propses America gets 100% of its energy from renewable resources by 2018 [Re: zouden]
    #8698520 - 07/29/08 05:09 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Geothermal is a realistic option that everybody could use by installing a heat pump.  It's also an expensive capital investment, but with the price of energy these days, it pays itself off in less than 10 years, and unlike solar panels, it works all the time.

This will be a big part of using 100% earth-friendly energy - energy efficiency.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Al Gore propses America gets 100% of its energy from renewable resources by 2018 [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8700288 - 07/30/08 12:10 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

pothead_bob said:
Geothermal is a realistic option that everybody could use by installing a heat pump.  It's also an expensive capital investment, but with the price of energy these days, it pays itself off in less than 10 years, and unlike solar panels, it works all the time.

This will be a big part of using 100% earth-friendly energy - energy efficiency.




I heard this before, but I dont quite get it.  I understand how it works in iceland.  But could I in phoenix, or you in the northeast use this?  What would it be, a big pipe that goes in the ground, and you use the temperature gradient somehow?

I better google this.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Al Gore propses America gets 100% of its energy from renewable resources by 2018 [Re: DieCommie]
    #8700749 - 07/30/08 02:35 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

In the past we could only use geothermal in volcanically-active areas, but things are changing now that people are seriously looking at alternative energy sources. One technology that we (in Australia) are getting pretty excited about is hot bedrock geothermal. I believe that 'hot' in this case refers to natural radioactivity like that found in granite.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_dry_rock_geothermal_energy
There's at least one company (Geodynamics) that's already built a test bore. I looked into them the other day as a possible investment.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Al Gore propses America gets 100% of its energy from renewable resources by 2018 [Re: zouden]
    #8700766 - 07/30/08 02:41 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

if only we could throw sum turbines in the ocean


--------------------

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Al Gore propses America gets 100% of its energy from renewable resources by 2018 [Re: DieCommie]
    #8700879 - 07/30/08 04:11 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

>  But could I in phoenix, or you in the northeast use (geothermal power)?

Yes... as long as you have a few million dollars to spend digging a hole that is a couple of miles deep and an acre of land in your backyard to support the drilling rig.

Geothermal power is a great energy source.  Perhaps the best energy source from a lack of nasty side effects standpoint.  Unfortunately, it is very expensive to drill holes in the ground, thus geothermal energy is only feasible where the earths crust has thin spots.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Al Gore propses America gets 100% of its energy from renewable resources by 2018 [Re: Seuss]
    #8700926 - 07/30/08 04:38 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

It's a very impressive energy source. If you could improve drilling tech so that it's cheaper and you can tap geothermal at any location, it's quite feasible that eventually all our energy could come from it.

Unless we develop fusion power, in 100 or 200 years we might be using geothermal exclusively.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Al Gore propses America gets 100% of its energy from renewable resources by 2018 [Re: zouden]
    #8700934 - 07/30/08 04:47 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

theres endless amounts of free clean energy everywhere u just have to open ur eyes  :eyeball:  :eyeball:  :eyeball:  :eyeball:  :eyeball:  :eyeball:  :eyeball:  :eyeball:  :eyeball:


--------------------

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Al Gore propses America gets 100% of its energy from renewable resources by 2018 [Re: zouden]
    #8700965 - 07/30/08 05:16 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

> If you could improve drilling tech so that it's cheaper

My grandfather owned a water well drilling company, and I grew up around the stuff.  Water wells are nothing compared to deep drilling, but the techniques are the same.  Unfortunately, there are only so many ways to dig a hole, and none of them are easy.

Rather than digging individual 'geothermal wells' for each property, it makes much more sense to build a large plant.

I never understood why we don't use geotherm for cooling.  Drill down to the water table, which is easy, drop down a heat exchanger, and use the ground to help maintain a constant temperature.  It will keep things warm in the winter and cool in the summer.

> theres endless amounts of free clean energy everywhere u just have to open ur eyes  :eyeball:

Perhaps, but even if this were true, they are not usable forms of energy, thus pointless with respect to the current discussion.

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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Al Gore propses America gets 100% of its energy from renewable resources by 2018 [Re: Seuss]
    #8700986 - 07/30/08 05:39 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

this is completely true for instance everyday enuf sunlight hits the earth to power trillions of houses
and it is entirely usable in its current form
theres also endless wind energy
and tidal forces waiting to be harnessed
our current living arrangements is unsustainable
we will use this energy i am speaking of u will see
:hole:


--------------------

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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: Al Gore propses America gets 100% of its energy from renewable resources by 2018 [Re: Coaster]
    #8701081 - 07/30/08 07:02 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Yes... as long as you have a few million dollars to spend digging a hole that is a couple of miles deep and an acre of land in your backyard to support the drilling rig.





No, it has nothing to do with deep drilling.  It's about the same depth as a well hole.  You just have to dig up more of your back yard.  It's not extracting heat from the ground to power a turbine, like in Iceland.

It works on a system in thermodynamics known as a heat engine.  A heat engine isn't like an internal combustion engine.  A heat engine is an engine that works between two different temperature gradients.  A Stirling engine is the best example, which you could read about on Wikipedia if you want.

A Stirling engine would be heated on one end and cooled on another, thus generating shaft work through expansion and compression of a gas.  A heat pump works in reverse.  You apply shaft work to heat one temperature source to another temperature.  It's more efficient, though, because you're heating the groundwater, which is much warmer than the outside temperature.  Because of that, much less work is required to obtain the outlet temperature.

You could also use it in reverse in the summer and transfer heat from your home into the ground, thus using it as an air conditioner.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Al Gore propses America gets 100% of its energy from renewable resources by 2018 [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8701649 - 07/30/08 11:09 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I figured it was something like that.  I have to say Im very skeptical as to how much useful power the temperature gradient between the air and in the dirt can provide.  Stirling engines, for example, though efficient provide very little wattage.

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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: Al Gore propses America gets 100% of its energy from renewable resources by 2018 [Re: DieCommie]
    #8701779 - 07/30/08 11:41 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

It's not for providing power... you're using the temperature gradient to heat your home, not power it.  It's much more efficient than a typical resistance heater because they don't move heat.

A heat pump moves heat from the ground to the home.  You could also have an ambient air heat pump that moves energy from outside to inside, but they're not as efficient because of the bigger temperature gradient (i.e. it takes more work to get heat to flow into your home).  For example, on a cold winter's day (0 F), the temperature gradient is much bigger between your home and the outside than your home and the ground (which is usually like 55 F).

While a typical resitance heater has a coefficient of performance of 1 (meaning 1 joule of energy is converted into 1 joule of heat), heat pumps typically have COPs of around 3 or even 4 (meaning 1 joule of electricity is converted into 4 joules of heat for your home).


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.

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Offlinedill705
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Re: Al Gore propses America gets 100% of its energy from renewable resources by 2018 [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8702780 - 07/30/08 02:56 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Sounds efficient :strokebeard:


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Al Gore propses America gets 100% of its energy from renewable resources by 2018 [Re: dill705]
    #8702822 - 07/30/08 03:05 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I got just the opposite impression :lol:

It sounds like it would not be worth it, but without installation cost there is no way to tell. 

Considering it only provides improved efficiency for heating, that could only be worth a few hundred dollars a year in a normal city right?  It would be worthless here in phoenix.

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