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Offlinechrisnh
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casing not looking too good
    #8656762 - 07/19/08 09:27 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

it's been 6/7 days since this was put into the FC . the myc underneath looks good, but there doesn't seem to be a whole lot going on up top. it's in a monotub  with the humidity staying in the mid 90s. temp from 75-81(can't help that part), plenty of light and i don't think FAE  is a problem since there is 8 1inch holes covered with micropore tape and a fan moving air around the general area throughout the day(plus an occasional hand fanning). don't even see knots forming yet. is there something wrong or just lacking patience? thanks











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InvisibleKrez
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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: chrisnh]
    #8656781 - 07/19/08 09:32 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Monotubs are meant for bulk  not casings.  Also those casings look really dry.  have you been misting them?


--------------------
Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.  (Homer)

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Offlinechrisnh
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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: Krez]
    #8656791 - 07/19/08 09:36 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

just misted after the pic, haven't really been because the RH has been high.  put it in a monotub because it heard it's best to not have RH too high with a casing, and the shotgun was keeping it too high. would it be better off back in the shotgun? thanks

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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: chrisnh]
    #8656808 - 07/19/08 09:41 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)



--------------------
Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.  (Homer)

Look, the thing about my family is there's five of us. Marge, Bart, Girl Bart, the one who doesn't talk, and the fat guy. How I loathe him. (Drunk Homer)

All the ways you wish you could be, that's me. I look like you wanna look, I fuck like you wanna fuck, I am smart, capable, and most importantly, I am free in all the ways that you are not. (Tyler Durden)

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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: Krez]
    #8656835 - 07/19/08 09:51 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

it looks ok give another week before you worry


--------------------
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[quote]RogerRabbit said:
You don't need to drill a lot of holes.  Some growers choose to fan several times per day instead.
RR [/quote]

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Offlinechrisnh
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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: wickedsick]
    #8656842 - 07/19/08 09:54 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

wickedsick said:
it looks ok give another week before you worry




too late about the worrying, but i guess i can give it another week before i start crying :smile:

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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: chrisnh]
    #8656870 - 07/19/08 10:04 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

yea bro just keep normal fc conditions and fan then mist 4-7 times a day(pull the mist trigger 1-3 times per misting) it should pin any time now. good luck.


--------------------
enjoy your seizure
"Ninja Jar ©"Tek
Mycelium Water TEK


[quote]RogerRabbit said:
You don't need to drill a lot of holes.  Some growers choose to fan several times per day instead.
RR [/quote]

Edited by wickedsick (07/19/08 10:18 PM)

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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: wickedsick]
    #8656915 - 07/19/08 10:17 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Did you dunk that sub? It look like one of mine that was not hydrated before casing. I think your sub is dry.


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Offlinechrisnh
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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: robanero]
    #8656949 - 07/19/08 10:27 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

no, i heard it was best to only dunk after the first flush when doing a casing. the sub was broken up mycobags. little over 2 quarts worth

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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: chrisnh]
    #8657048 - 07/19/08 11:11 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Read this and decide if for yourself if dunking before you case a sub is what you should do.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8541785#Post8541785

RR knows his shit. He dose not give bad advice.


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Offlinechrisnh
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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: robanero]
    #8657075 - 07/19/08 11:17 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

so dunking before the casing layer is put on is a good idea. how about now? the casing layer is already on and has been for  a week. if in another week nothing happens, could the loose verm be removed and the sub dunked then recased? thanks

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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: chrisnh]
    #8657111 - 07/19/08 11:37 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

-First off, when you do a casing... You need to let the mecylium reincubate all over again until the top casing is covered completly white in growth. The humidity should be around 95+RH if you want it to go by quickly & if you are doing any casing really.


--------------------
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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: robanero]
    #8657113 - 07/19/08 11:37 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I'm thinking about just adding water to the tray and letting it sit for a few hours and then dump out what ever water is left in the tray.


--------------------

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Offlinechrisnh
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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: HazeyRoms]
    #8657129 - 07/19/08 11:43 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

HazeyRoms said:
-First off, when you do a casing... You need to let the mecylium reincubate all over again until the top casing is covered completly white in growth. The humidity should be around 95+RH if you want it to go by quickly & if you are doing any casing really.




the casing was incubated fora  few days until it was somewhat colonized...this is what it looked like.


was under the impression that it was best to put it in the FC then and not wait for it to 100% colonize. 


Quote:

I'm thinking about just adding water to the tray and letting it sit for a few hours and then dump out what ever water is left in the tray.




that may be a good idea in a couple days if things don't look better. thanks :smile:

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OfflinePowerOfTheCoir
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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: chrisnh]
    #8657933 - 07/20/08 07:40 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

chrisnh said:
Quote:

HazeyRoms said:
-First off, when you do a casing... You need to let the mecylium reincubate all over again until the top casing is covered completly white in growth. The humidity should be around 95+RH if you want it to go by quickly & if you are doing any casing really.




the casing was incubated fora  few days until it was somewhat colonized...this is what it looked like.


was under the impression that it was best to put it in the FC then and not wait for it to 100% colonize. 





You're right, Hazey is wrong. 100% colonization of the casing layer can lead to overlay and at the very least, it defeats the purpose of having a casing layer. The great debate now is whether it's best to even give the casing layer a few days covered to colonize or to just put it in fruiting conditions immediately.

You don't have overlay, but in the close-ups, it does look like you've got mycellium present pretty much throughout the verm casing. Aside from a few very thin sections on the top, there's no loose casing material. This is causing a problem for you. Since uncolonized casing isn't covering your substrate and taking care of the evaporation to maintain the FC's humidity, your colonized verm (actually part of your substrate now) is taking water out of the substrate and letting it evaporate away. This is drying out your substrate. You also are not getting the necessary very high humidity pinning micro-climate that a layer of uncolonized casing would provide.

You said that your RH is in the 90's. How do you know this? If you have a hygrometer, are you 100% confident in it? Often the more affordable ones do a poor job in the higher humidity ranges.

Based on your description of your set-up, I strongly suspect that your humidity is not as high as you think it is. If it is being maintained, it is at the expense of massive moisture loss from the substrates. You actually do not have a mono-tub - your FC is more akin to a perlite terrarium with no perlite. Monotubs have bulk substrate, usually cased, filling the entire bottom of the tub itself. This allows the large mass of substrate and wall-to-wall casing layer to provide the necessary humidity for the tub. With a few small trays in yours, you have far less casing area and substrate mass to support the amount of evaporation needed to keep up with the RH in that tub. Furthermore, with vermiculite there will be no visual cue that your casings need misting either.

Recommendations:

I've got a recommendation that no one else has mentioned yet. We know that you don't have a true monotub and you're probably having problems related to humidity. Put 5 inches of wet perlite in the bottom of that tub and lay your trays on top of it. That will bring your humidity way up and take the burden off your trays. Put some holes in the tub under the perlite for some of the benefits of a shotgun FC. Putting trays like yours on perlite is a common practice and gives the casings the high humidity that they thrive in.

Next, put that water around the edges now. Leave it in for a few hours to overnight. Just be sure to pour it all out afterwards. Those substrates are screaming for water and low water content is the easiest way to ensure lousy fruiting. You can even repeat this a few days later. Remember, mushrooms are used to growing and fruiting during the time of year when they get flooded almost daily. As long as they get drained and can breathe afterwards, they'll appreciate the water.

Finally, (I know I say this on just about every post) lay a sheet of wrinkled wax paper over each tray. With the near total colonization of your verm casing layer, you essentially have an uncased substrate. It needs something else to maintain near 100% RH right at the surface in order to begin pinning. The wax paper wil trap humidity but not interfere with FAE. It's easy and safe to try, but it can make a huge improvement in the pinning zone micro-climate.

You should mist several times a day, but do it extremely lightly and fan off any excess moisture before replacing the wax paper. The exposed mycellium where the verm has totally colonized is prone to matting down from exposure to built up water. Again, mist them, but be careful and fan before putting the wax paper back.


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Offlinechrisnh
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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: PowerOfTheCoir]
    #8658127 - 07/20/08 09:23 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

wow, thanks for all the info. i had actually just put it back in a shotgun that had perlite in it before reading your post. so that takes care of that part. i'll be putting water in the tray today and pouring it out when i get home about 12 hours later and trying the wax paper. i actually have a sheet prepared already from a few days ago when i read someone recommend it to someone else, must have been you. lol. the concern i have is that the top of the casing layer looks hard, not loose and fluffy like it should be, or at least i think it should be. would it help/hurt to take a sterilized fork and try to fluff it up a little, or maybe adding a very thin layer of fresh casing? thanks again for all the help

oh ya, as for the humidty, yes i'm sure it's that high, i have 2 cheapo hydrometers, but they've been calibrated, and they both say mid to high 90s. not to mention when it was still in the "monotub" a small puddle had formed on the bottom of it from water dripping off the sides, but like you said, i suspect that came the the sub evaporating.

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OfflinePowerOfTheCoir
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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: chrisnh]
    #8658158 - 07/20/08 09:32 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

The fork idea you have is called "deep scratching." I'd hold off on that - it's a last resort when you have overlay that has matted down and formed a layer of dead cells that seals the substrate.

Adding more verm casing would cover up any contaminant spores that have landed over the last week and give them a nice place to grow. For now, stick to the wax paper. As long as the top of your casing isn't dead, it should do nicely under the wax paper. The wax technique was designed for uncased subs - so your semi-cased sub should be fine under it.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: chrisnh]
    #8658189 - 07/20/08 09:38 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

chrisnh said:
haven't really been because the RH has been high.  put it in a monotub because it heard it's best to not have RH too high with a casing, and the shotgun was keeping it too high.




Every time I hear someone say keep the humidity lower with cased substrates I want to friggen scream!  99% humidity and lots of air exchange are the two main pinning triggers, and there is NO reason to use a lower humidity simply because you put a casing layer on.

In addition, micropore tape and/or polyfill will allow gas exchange.  However, AIR exchange is the number 1 pinning trigger.  Either remove the tape from the holes, or put your trays in another fruiting chamber.  Give bright white light, plenty of fresh air, regular misting, and you should see pins soon.
RR


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Offlinechrisnh
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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: PowerOfTheCoir]
    #8658190 - 07/20/08 09:38 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

ok thanks. pouring water in now :smile:

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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: chrisnh]
    #8658329 - 07/20/08 10:32 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

PowerOfTheCoir, do you use the wax paper as a general practice or just to "fix" things?  do you leave it on and let the pins push it up? thanks

just took another look under the cake. i think i should get this out of the fc and put it in a patch outdoors. the black and especially the green spots worry me.









Edited by chrisnh (07/29/08 11:07 PM)

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OfflineHazeyRoms
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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: chrisnh]
    #8659744 - 07/20/08 04:46 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Hah! My Hygrometer cost me $168.76 usd. As for my tek, it works well for me.

-As for the casing not fully colinizing, I will give it a try. Today, I will keep you updated...


--------------------
-Sonn, Hazey here. And I'm bacc. Anyone in Wisconsin, PM me. Unity my nillas/niggas.

-"5 Nike duffle bags??? How much does all that weigh?? - Just 30 pounds Bruhh, relax my nilla, it don't stink like weed so we're all good."-(Penis Envy Moments)-

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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: chrisnh]
    #8659768 - 07/20/08 04:54 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

When you look at that tray later I'll bet there is no water to pour out. I have put water in mine 3x today and it just sucked it right up. None to pour out.


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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: HazeyRoms]
    #8660005 - 07/20/08 05:50 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

HazeyRoms said:
-First off, when you do a casing... You need to let the mecylium reincubate all over again until the top casing is covered completly white in growth. The humidity should be around 95+RH if you want it to go by quickly & if you are doing any casing really.




A casing layer should NOT be 100% colonized! Substrates should.

We need to be careful what terms we use. It's very confusing. I still get confused and I've been here for a few days. :2cents:


--------------------
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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: chrisnh]
    #8663919 - 07/21/08 04:45 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

chrisnh said:
PowerOfTheCoir, do you use the wax paper as a general practice or just to "fix" things?  do you leave it on and let the pins push it up? thanks




I mostly use it to fix things. I'll put it on as soon as something makes me unconfident in my humidity, or if I have a problem that I just can't identify. A good casing layer and a decent macro-environment will eliminate the need for wax paper. Wax paper is useful on cased substrates only when either the casing layer has problems, the air is too dry for the casing to maintain 95-100% RH in the pinning micro-climate, or the casing performed fine but eventually dried out since it was never misted.

I only make it a practice when I am trying out un-cased substrates. With uncased substrates (or substrates which have completely colonized a nutritious "casing" layer like coir) the RH should be maintained at nearly 100%. Cased subs prefer that too, but they don't NEED it. With the wax paper, uncased subs are more resilient to drops in the RH.

You can use wax paper the whole time, but not the same piece. For either substrate, you can leave it on until the fruits are ready to harvest. They'll like the humidity, so use it the whole time if you think they will benefit. It weight is so negligible that the pins/fruits won't even know its there. I would, however, change the sheet every few days. It does get soggy. I try to change it almost every day when I'm using it, but that's just because it's so darn cheap.

I often recommend it as a possible solution to most problems not because it will necessarily solve most problems. Rather, it's just so cheap and easy to do that there's no reason not to at least try it. Even the tightest budgets can afford a sheet of wax paper and there's no way it will hurt anything. At the very least, it eliminates one possibility and tells us to look elsewhere.


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Offlinechrisnh
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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: PowerOfTheCoir]
    #8671365 - 07/23/08 11:33 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

an update on the casing. 2.5 days after draining the water out after a 10 hour soak(didn't totally cover it just filled the pan until is started floating,didn't want to put any weight to make it sink out of fear of further packing down the casing layer) and 9 days total of being in the FC, this is how it's looking.  this is also the setup the FC is in. it's in a cabinet that is not fully closed,cracked an inch or so. the light(20 watt fluor 6500K) is on for several hours a day and the small fan up top is facing out so it sucks air into the cabinet around the tub, it's on for 15 mins 5 times a day.

not sure if the soak kind of reset things as far as how long it will take for pins to show. if so then i have a while to go, but if not i would think they should be there now or VERY soon.  however when i look at it(and i don't know what i'm doing,so who knows) it just doesn't look like a proper casing that's about to fruit(packed too tight or something). any advice/predictions/thoughts etc? thanks







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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: chrisnh]
    #8672366 - 07/23/08 03:28 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Wait did you get a flush out of the casing yet?


--------------------
Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.  (Homer)

Look, the thing about my family is there's five of us. Marge, Bart, Girl Bart, the one who doesn't talk, and the fat guy. How I loathe him. (Drunk Homer)

All the ways you wish you could be, that's me. I look like you wanna look, I fuck like you wanna fuck, I am smart, capable, and most importantly, I am free in all the ways that you are not. (Tyler Durden)

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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: Krez]
    #8672731 - 07/23/08 04:45 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

just wait it out man.  sometimes it takes longer than usual.

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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: This guy]
    #8672900 - 07/23/08 05:44 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I dont dunk anything anymore. I either get contams or my mycelium in the tray just dies. All my troubles were with proper dunking.I get big flushes without dunking. I dont recommend dunking to anyone. You might just want to try spraying or misting;it has worked for me. Your mycelium might just die now.

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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: chrisnh]
    #8673108 - 07/23/08 06:34 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

fae?? might be a dumb question but i don't know it so i asked

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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: ddtc]
    #8674171 - 07/23/08 10:53 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Wait did you get a flush out of the casing yet?




nope, not even pins yet

Quote:

Your mycelium might just die now.




D'oh

Quote:

fae??




it's in this cabinet with the door cracked and a small fan,upper right, blowing out of the cabinet, so it's sucking in through the crack of the door. check it when i fan a couple times a day and no real heavy CO2 smell


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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: chrisnh]
    #8676597 - 07/24/08 02:38 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

CO2 Doesn't have a smell. Miners and spelunkers sometime die from encountering CO2 concentrations in caves because there is no way to measure it without instrumentation.

You have a nice, thick layer of damp perlite and no standing water - GOOD JOB! You need way more holes though. Watch RR's video (part 3) on youtube or on his site. A shotgun fc has HUNDREDS of holes and they're on all 6 sides. You would need to open and fan yours constantly to make up for having so few holes. Drill them everywhere and put the tub on some small blocks or something so that the bottom ones can take in air. Humid air actually weighs LESS than dry air (gasses at the same pressure have the same # of molecules by volume and 1 molecule of H2O weighs less than both O2 and N2). With the shotgun FC, air is humidified to 100% in the perlite layer and then creates a very slight flow up through the layer. This keeps the RH nice and high and assists with FAE.

Username "ddtc" - FAE = Fresh Air Exchange - it refers to methods for keeping CO2 from building up in the FC. Fungi produce lots of CO2 just like humans - they need the C)2 removed and O2 supplies replenished


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Offlinechrisnh
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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: PowerOfTheCoir]
    #8678377 - 07/24/08 11:04 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

there's at least 150 holes if you count all 6 sides,top and bottom.  just the sides have over 100 and there's about 50 on the lid and quite a few on the bottom, not in the pic shown but it is up about half an inch off the shelf, i could raise it more if that would help. as for the smell, i guess it's something else i was associating with C02 that i don't smell much of now but have before,maybe a natural myc smell that i'm not getting off this casing for some reason?

Edited by chrisnh (07/24/08 11:41 PM)

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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: chrisnh]
    #8689868 - 07/27/08 07:55 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

at what point do you know if you have a bad casing that isn't going to pin? and what can be done from there to save it? thanks :smile:

just after i right that i look real close and see this


of course it has to be coming from the side right? oh well at least it's a pin. any suggestions on what to do with this? or just leave it as is and let it pin however it wants. thanks

Edited by chrisnh (07/27/08 08:28 PM)

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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: chrisnh]
    #8695700 - 07/29/08 01:47 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

is it too early to say this if poor FAE(looking a little skinny)? R44 strain. thanks





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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: chrisnh]
    #8696626 - 07/29/08 09:42 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

wow, i didn't expect these to mature already and be so small :frown: picked this morning and the bigger of the 2 is shorter than my pinky. i don't get it, humidity is pegged 24/7 and there seems to be enough FAE.


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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: chrisnh]
    #8697455 - 07/29/08 01:15 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Side pinning usually indicates a lack of moisture in the casing or, more likely, a low humidity at the surface of the casing. The reason that pins form in between the foil and the casing is that there is a very high RH there.


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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: PowerOfTheCoir]
    #8699956 - 07/29/08 10:51 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

thanks. guess i'll give it a good misting. but what would explain why they matured so small?

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Re: casing not looking too good [Re: chrisnh]
    #8703550 - 07/30/08 05:46 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

chrisnh said:
thanks. guess i'll give it a good misting. but what would explain why they matured so small?




Most likely - low moisture availability in the substrate.


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