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Invisibletruffleupagus
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Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia *DELETED*
    #8648912 - 07/17/08 09:40 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Post deleted by truffleupagus

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: truffleupagus]
    #8649030 - 07/17/08 10:13 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Is it always negative thoughts?

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OfflineJonnyDeformed

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: truffleupagus]
    #8649042 - 07/17/08 10:16 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Ask whoever you're with if they can actually read your thoughts?
Experiment with it, you never know what you might find.  :yesnod:


--------------------


dubiousness
Dubious compound

it is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong.
A penalty for possession of a drug/plant should not be more damaging than the drug/plant itself.

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OfflinePreyToGod
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: daytripper23]
    #8649047 - 07/17/08 10:18 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

sounds like something bigger than a trip effect if it happens all the time.  Maybe some deep meditation and open verbalization of your thoughts and where you are at in your life will help.  This will also be positive if you are finding it hard to relax.  I guess I kinda know what you mean.


--------------------
"We live together, we act on, and react to, one another but always and in all circumstances we are by ourselves... By its very nature every embodied spirit is doomed to suffer and enjoy in solitude." Huxuly
the man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed

just because we all see the:greenshroom:
doesn't mean we all see the same
:mushroom2:

I pushed my fingers through the earth, returned this flower to the dirt. so it could live, I walked away now. But I know... Not a day goes by when I don't feel this burn. There's a point we pass from which we can't return. I've felt the cold rain of the coming storm
None but ourselves can free our minds.”



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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: truffleupagus]
    #8649375 - 07/17/08 11:52 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

truffleupagus said:
I've had something happen a couple times now during mushroom trips that I don't particularly like.  I'll have a thought or thoughts pop into my head and, all of a sudden, I'll start to have the feeling or delusion that one of the people I'm with can read my mind.





Everything in the universe is connected; because the thoughts you are having coincide with electromagnetic disturbance in our 'physical universe', all of your thoughts are in some way felt in the thoughts of all others sharing electromagnetic space (everyone). Sometimes when mushrooms are causing you to realize this- but you cannot interpret the message fully- it seems like more of you is becoming visible to the universe. Just remember that the reality is more like you and the universe are becoming more visible to each other.

Quote:


I'm just about positive that this is, in fact, a delusion and nothing more.  But while it's going on, it feels so real.  It doesn't matter how much I try to convince myself otherwise.  I have no choice but to ride it out for however long it wants to go on for.





Try and allow the feeling to explain itself to you. Delusions are generally feelings which are not allowed to be understood. Try and trip somewhere where you wouldn't mind if the people read your mind maybe.

Quote:


I just don't like this one bit.

Sometimes I'll have thoughts pop into my head and I'm not exactly sure where they're coming from but they don't feel like my own.  This kind of thing happens while I'm sober and while I'm on stuff.  All I know is that half the time I don't even know what's on my mind.  I'll be damned if I want someone else to know lol.





If you ever meditate to the point that your thoughts seem few enough to count, less than 1 thought/second say. (don't try and count them though, they multiply)
You may notice that the source of the thoughts, and the source of the feeling of being are in two different locations.

The truth is we don't know where thoughts come from.

Quote:


I'm curious to see if anyone has had any positive experiences with telepathy during trips and if anyone could provide any advice on how to better handle what I just described.

Of all the many things I've dabbled in, mushrooms are the only thing that this has happened with.




--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Invisibletruffleupagus
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: JonnyDeformed]
    #8649772 - 07/18/08 03:10 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Good responses.  Thanks guys.


Quote:

JonnyDeformed said:
Ask whoever you're with if they can actually read your thoughts?
Experiment with it, you never know what you might find.  :yesnod:





You would think it would be this easy but somehow it's not.  Of course it would be fairly simple to actually ask someone that.  But then there's the possibility that they might not be 100% forthcoming.  There's also the possibility that you wouldn't want to just blurt out what your thought was, in the event it came to that.

But yes, I do agree in the sense that there's probably always a little room for experimentation and I'm sure it's better than thinking that you just have to sit there and deal with it.

The one time that this happened I was with my wife.  I ate 5 grams and she had 3 1/2.  For some reason, despite the fact that we were having a great time and I was trying to just think about us, the thought popped into my head that I think one of her friends is kinda cute.  I think it must have been that she just happened to make the right facial expression at the right moment.  So then that started me thinking that she was inside my head and the feeling continued even after I went into another room for a while.  I never told her what I was thinking but, after the trip, I did tell her that I felt that way.  She didn't say much in response to that so, for all I know, maybe she was inside my head.

But I want to get into someone else's head too. :crankey:

Actually, if it's gonna make somebody paranoid like this then no I don't.

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Invisibletruffleupagus
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8649782 - 07/18/08 03:24 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
If you ever meditate to the point that your thoughts seem few enough to count, less than 1 thought/second say. (don't try and count them though, they multiply)
You may notice that the source of the thoughts, and the source of the feeling of being are in two different locations.





I will defnitely give this a shot if it happens again.

Maybe I'll even get lucky and have a positive thought sharing experience sometime soon.  I hope so.

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Offlinemebesideme
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: truffleupagus]
    #8649797 - 07/18/08 03:40 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I used to only trip with three friends, one of which was my fiancee at the time, and the other two were a couple we hang with always, people I had known as a couple for years. The first two times we all tripped together, I ended up having the worst trip because my ex began to get on my nerves really bad and I started paying a lot more attention to my friend's girl. I started to feel an incredible attraction to her all the time. After a few more trips together and other things occurring, I began to realize I didn't love my ex very much, and we broke it off. I didn't really do it to get with my friend's girl, and we had never spoken of any attraction to one another...Anyways, every time we were tripping together I would feel overwhelmingly like my friends girl was in my head and a part of her was attached to me inside. It was a very deep connection to one another. After I broke up with my girl, we were hanging out together alone (me and the girl) and all of a sudden she tells me she knows exactly how I feel and that she has been thinking of me every day since the first trip we all took together. These days, every time we are in the room together I feel the same way toward her, its like she is actually a part of me or something. We tried pursuing our feelings for one another but her dude and me are great friends and they have a kid together so we just couldn't break up our whole lives. Strange stuff but it has really developed my sense of the true nature.


--------------------
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Offlineburgatory
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: truffleupagus]
    #8649804 - 07/18/08 03:45 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I'm pretty sure this telepathy on mushrooms is real. I was once on mushrooms and in that REALLY heightened awareness, and I looked my bird right in the face and just had the sudden feeling of intending to communicate something to it, like "hello I am you!" or something. It reacted in a really perculiar way, started blinking and moving its head in a fashion like it was telepathically communicating back. I was sure there was some information passed between us.


--------------------

Wherever the hero may wander, whatever he may do, he is ever in the presence of his own essence — for he has the perfected eye to see. There is no separateness. Thus, just as the way of social participation may lead in the end to a realization of the All in the individual, so that of exile brings the hero to the Self in all.

joseph campbell


For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

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Offlinegentry
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: burgatory]
    #8649855 - 07/18/08 04:41 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I have yet to have this experience on the mushrooms, but I did get the inverse of what you are talking about while smoking pot.

This is going back 13 or so years, and every time I smoked (which was everyday at this point), I would be able to read other peoples thoughts. I would be sitting in a room full of my buddies and I would hear a sentence being spoken in my head. 10 - 20 seconds later, someone in the room said the same damn sentence.

The first few times, it was freaky as fuck, but written off as being stoned. When it started to happen all the time, with pinpoint accuracy about who was actually going to say what, it scared the shit out of me. I thought I was going insane.

It was probably one of the main driving factors behind me going into rehab and consequently becoming a Christian.

The church explained that it was probably demons whispering in my ear. Since I am no longer a Christian, the explanation does not seem very valid. My current reasoning is that it was the chemicals fucking with my head so much, the way I was perceiving time/events/thoughts were being reordered in real time. I do accept however, that there may be the possibility of it being actual telepathy.

If it ever starts happening again, I don't intend to run from it or be scared. I'm going to test it and figure out if it really is all in my head, or...

Anyway, none of this really helps you. I just want you to know that there are people out there who know how you feel.

The questions I ask most commonly now, when faced with anything, is:

"What can I learn from this? In what way can it help me grow?"

Perhaps trip with someone close to you and explore it if it happens?


--------------------
"I'm no smarter than anyone else. I'm just willing to make way more mistakes, way more quickly".

Richard Bandler

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OfflineAvalanche
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: truffleupagus]
    #8649864 - 07/18/08 04:45 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

We are all connected.  This is not some strange new age bullshit slogan that just sounds cool, it has more meaning than most people will ever understand in their entire lives.

Our individuality is an illusion.  When you come to realize this, as mushrooms has taught me, you will learn to better sync yourself with your environment as well as others around you.  I am sure many of you have had those trips with your buddies, and all you have to do is look at them and you know exactly what they are thinking, perhaps not the "words" that they are thinking, but you know what's going on in their mind.  That is real, just not fully developed.

If you want to investigate these skills further, I suggest that you try to go for the feeling of what they are thinking, rather than trying to focus on words.  It also helps to build up your energy levels so you can feel energies around yourself.  Words are too slow when your trying to do this kind of work.  PM me if you want more info, theres just so much.  Peace.

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: burgatory]
    #8650004 - 07/18/08 06:41 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

burgatory said:
I'm pretty sure this telepathy on mushrooms is real.




Likewise, Ive had some really odd experiences, one of wich actually really made me realise it is more than just tripping. Ill explain in this thread after work.

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OfflineRedRainDrop
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: burgatory]
    #8650085 - 07/18/08 07:43 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

burgatory said:
I'm pretty sure this telepathy on mushrooms is real. I was once on mushrooms and in that REALLY heightened awareness, and I looked my bird right in the face and just had the sudden feeling of intending to communicate something to it, like "hello I am you!" or something. It reacted in a really perculiar way, started blinking and moving its head in a fashion like it was telepathically communicating back. I was sure there was some information passed between us.




i actually had the exact same thing on my mushroom trip 2 days ago.... my cat kept looking at me like that, and telepathically telling me, it was the same mind powering him. He mimicked my emotions.

And i also saw an ant crawling on my wall, which communicated to me in some foreign language the same thing. It was just extremely interesting format of language... it was made of sounds, and shapes. Which i physically FELT. How hard to explain it..... I would also see spider crawling along making webs as i thought, as if they were weaving information into the webs.

Animals i know for a fact interact with you constantly while tripping.... you basically send a signal out saying "here i am!" And they want to communicate back.


--------------------
Fact: Saving the environment can take centuries
A blow job can take up to 5 minutes.
"When was the last time you heard green peace talk about the immense pleasure you get when you put your penis in someone Else's mouth? " -jonlajoie

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Invisibletruffleupagus
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: gentry]
    #8650088 - 07/18/08 07:47 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

gentry said:
I just want you to know that there are people out there who know how you feel.





Thank you!  I appreciate that. :grin:

For as much as I've tripped, I really haven't done mushrooms too many times and I'm just now starting to get into meditation and stuff like that.

I've only done a couple high dose mushroom trips up to this point and I'm starting to think that my next one should be alone.  I think this could possibly do wonders for me if I go into it with the right intentions.  Then maybe it'll make it easier for me to work magic with others after that.

I also realized that both times this has happened with this paranoia, I had quite a bit of stuff on my mind beforehand.  So perhaps more attention needs to be paid to mindset.

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: truffleupagus]
    #8650167 - 07/18/08 08:35 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I should also mention that there are states where your mind can become even more visible than you were fearing during your previous trip. Where you can KNOW that mind reading is going on (even if not in simple form).

The last time I tripped, I ended up eating somewhat more than half of an 8 gram cube that I assumed would have a semi-low potency. It didn't, it may have been the strongest cube I have taken.

When I was becoming high the friend I was with began to become uncomfortable with her environment. I didn't blame her or get mad, since "I'm the expert and she's new". She had me make adjustments to the environment (turn off lights and things) and complained about general subtle actions I took. 

As she complained about things I was doing, my natural reflex had me attempt to dissociate myself into pure contemplation so that I could not have a negative effect on her universe. The more I attempted to remove myself from her universe however the more I realized how strongly I was inevitably a part of it. Dissociation continued, confusion passed, and I found that I had as a conscious awareness remained in the contemplative part of my mind, yet my vocal subroutines had been allowed back into conversational discourse.

So I was left in a place where I was free, or trapped, to contemplate deeper reason, while my voice interacted unprovoked by me. When I spoke, I had no idea what I was saying- the sentences all ended up making sense but they had strange subjects and expectations. I asked about strange-for-friendly-conversation things like death and god and work and reward and consequence and personal values.

It was a strange sensation to be present but without vocal control while my friend conversed. She still thought she was talking to a real person. I felt as though she were bouncing thought off collective unconscious. Her voice felt more like my own as my anticipation of her responses to my speech formed in my mind more clearly than my intention to speak. From time to time I believed I was her talking.


So the interesting thing about the whole situation- there was information being given by my voice, about mind (who's mind?), without giving me ANY opportunity to intervene. Mind was being read, through my voice.

I am starting to believe that there is one human being for every body, and there is also one 'composite human being' for every combination of bodies. It seems like we may have been reading the mind of the being that is both of us more than either of the minds that were either of us.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Offlinemilkman
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8650205 - 07/18/08 08:54 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

its just your imagination

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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: milkman]
    #8650377 - 07/18/08 10:04 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

milkman said:
its just your imagination




Whatever lets you sleep at night, man.

One day you'll sing (or scream) a different tune.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #8650455 - 07/18/08 10:37 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I just have a few scattered points to make.  First, I've experienced what I can only describe as "three-word conversations" with friends on HBWR seeds, where only three words were spoken out loud and the rest completely mentally.  Now, I'm not sure if this was just a combination of superb body-language reading and emotional vibes from the LSA, or if there was actual mental telepathy going on, but it was still one of the most amazing experiences that's happened to me while using psychedelics.

Second, any experiment that's tried to validate this sort of mental telepathy using psychedelics has failed utterly.  It's been performed many times in a controlled, scientific setting, and no knowledge that the other person didn't know already was transmitted from one person to the other.  It might subjectively feel like telepathy, but it ain't.  This provides remarkable cognitive dissonance when I try to interpret my own subjective experiences in this rational light.  Perhaps my tripping friend and I were merely having identical thought-processes so as to provide the illusion of transmitted thoughts, or perhaps we were just involved in a heavy feedback loop of body language and facial expressions.  Of course, the damned thing is that at the time I couldn't help but perform dozens of tests to provoke my friend into responding at a certain time that I was willing mentally--and he hit those times correctly for the entire duration of the LSA peak.  If it is an illusion, then for all intents and purposes it's so real that you might as well have fun with it.

Third, having the paranoia that other people can read your thoughts is a classic text-book symptom of schizophrenia.  This is not to say that the OP is going schizophrenic, just a caution.  Since it's only happening during your mushroom trips, I'd say you're fine--just be mindful the delusion doesn't spill over into real life.


--------------------
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Invisibletruffleupagus
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: deCypher]
    #8650710 - 07/18/08 11:38 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Third, having the paranoia that other people can read your thoughts is a classic text-book symptom of schizophrenia.  This is not to say that the OP is going schizophrenic, just a caution.




Well yeah, I don't really think I'm a schizo either :tongue:.  Like I said, once in a while I'll have funny thoughts pop into my head regardless of whether I'm altered or sober.  But I think that's actually fairly normal.  And it's just the 2 times that this has happened so far.

I think I just need to get more involved in these kind of things, the metaphysical or whatever you want to call it.  It's just a difficult thing to do when you really don't have anyone in your immediate circle that seems to share the same fascinations.  For the most part anyway, everybody that I associate with uses psychedelics almost exclusively for the fun aspect. 

A friend of mine actually really surprised me a while back.  I had a little bit of dmt so I figured I'd be nice and offer to smoke some with him.  So he comes over my house and we're all getting ready to partake.  Then he says stuff like, "So what do you guys just sit around here and smoke this stuff all the time?" and "Man, you really do like tripping huh?  I think I was like 18 when I grew out of this kinda stuff."  And I knew he was just breaking my balls more than anything but it still kind of annoyed me.  I've been friends with this kid for years and, in an instant, I just started to wonder if he understood me at all.  It was like he couldn't comprehend the idea that some people actually see psychedelics as something more than just recreation.

So that's my reality.  Thank god for the open minded people on here.

But fortunately I really am blessed to have an awesome wife who has the greatest personality in the world and actually does share in most of my interests.  So if there's anybody that I can work on stuff like this with it's her.  I just need to not think about any of her friends anymore. :grin:

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OfflineWornTraveler
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: truffleupagus]
    #8650723 - 07/18/08 11:42 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I've had that same problem too, where I become convinced that everyone can hear my "inner voice". I've even had people actually comment on what's going on in my head, it totally freaks me out.

But that's because my "inner voice" is usually being babbled out loud while I'm tripping, haha. I apparently talk to myself if I'm not talking to someone else, telling myself how I feel and what I need to do and what's going on. And if I hadn't seen myself taped doing this I would not believe it lol. Maybe you've got the same issue? :tongue:


--------------------
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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: deCypher]
    #8650862 - 07/18/08 12:12 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
I just have a few scattered points to make.  First, I've experienced what I can only describe as "three-word conversations" with friends on HBWR seeds, where only three words were spoken out loud and the rest completely mentally.  Now, I'm not sure if this was just a combination of superb body-language reading and emotional vibes from the LSA, or if there was actual mental telepathy going on, but it was still one of the most amazing experiences that's happened to me while using psychedelics.





Every time a word is understood it is telepathy. We are given the illusion of ordinarity to dis-empower us from this truth. When we believe in ordinarity our awareness of the greater-than-4th dimension- 'possibility' -is greatly diminished. This is why in order for us to telepathically communicate when sober we must speak in words which agree closely the other's thoughtreality.

Psychedelics intensify your awareness of the possibilistic dimension, and allow you to accept telepathy more easily. Simply because distinct information was not transferred does not mean your communication was not real. The vast majority of communication involves no distinct information transfer.

If the exchange between you and your friend was encompassed within both of your communicative belief, it was real. As real as this exchange.

Quote:


Second, any experiment that's tried to validate this sort of mental telepathy using psychedelics has failed utterly.  It's been performed many times in a controlled, scientific setting, and no knowledge that the other person didn't know already was transmitted from one person to the other.  It might subjectively feel like telepathy, but it ain't.  This provides remarkable cognitive dissonance when I try to interpret my own subjective experiences in this rational light.  Perhaps my tripping friend and I were merely having identical thought-processes so as to provide the illusion of transmitted thoughts, or perhaps we were just involved in a heavy feedback loop of body language and facial expressions.  Of course, the damned thing is that at the time I couldn't help but perform dozens of tests to provoke my friend into responding at a certain time that I was willing mentally--and he hit those times correctly for the entire duration of the LSA peak.  If it is an illusion, then for all intents and purposes it's so real that you might as well have fun with it.





Scientific thought has trouble defining an equation to capture the truth of telepathy. It requires more than four dimensions to properly analyze.

Quote:


Third, having the paranoia that other people can read your thoughts is a classic text-book symptom of schizophrenia.  This is not to say that the OP is going schizophrenic, just a caution.  Since it's only happening during your mushroom trips, I'd say you're fine--just be mindful the delusion doesn't spill over into real life.




Schizophrenia is a tool used by those who do not understand magic to hurt those that do. 'Schizophrenia' is not constructed to use as a tool for healing one who is mentally unwell, but a tool for isolating them, and depriving them of entry into our thoughtreality.

Real life is delusion.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8651145 - 07/18/08 01:33 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Scientific thought has trouble defining an equation to capture the truth of telepathy. It requires more than four dimensions to properly analyze.




...what? This doesn't even make sense.

Quote:

Schizophrenia is a tool used by those who do not understand magic to hurt those that do. 'Schizophrenia' is not constructed to use as a tool for healing one who is mentally unwell, but a tool for isolating them, and depriving them of entry into our thoughtreality.

Real life is delusion.




I have some sympathies with this view, and it is true that modern science understands very little about schizophrenia.  (Comparisons between the shaman and the schizophrenic, and not to mention the deep inter-relations between dreams, delirium, and schizophrenia are all fascinating subjects.)  Regardless, making the metaphysical argument that real life is delusion and schizophrenia is merely "misunderstood magic" might be fine when you're philosophizing, but there is a substantial difference between idealized mental illness and the harsh reality of a paranoid schizophrenic who is convinced that the FBI has mind-control devices to read every thought he has.

A good book I'd recommend on the matter is The Eden Express, by Kurt Vonnegut's son.  The author portrays his own psychedelic journeys that segued into stark mental illness, and is a very interesting first-hand account of what it's like to be schizophrenic.


--------------------
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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: deCypher]
    #8651215 - 07/18/08 01:50 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said: but there is a substantial difference between idealized mental illness and the harsh reality of a paranoid schizophrenic who is convinced that the FBI has mind-control devices to read every thought he has.





Yes, but there is also a substantial difference between the example you gave of a very PARANOID schizophrenic and someone who has calmly and rationally worked into their understanding of reality the idea that we are constantly communicating much more than our mouths are saying. And further, the idea that it is rational to work this into your approach to reality--as opposed to assuming that you have an "untouchable zone" inside yourself in which you can run amok and do/think/fantasize about whatever you want without anyone being the wiser.

I am not schizophrenic.

However, I do believe others can read my thoughts. Only those of certain elevated awareness levels. And certainly not "word for word." More like the feeling behind the thought. I DO most definitely believe that the energy patterns can be interpretted.

I think that you do a great disservice to both the concept of telepathy AND the concept of subconscious communication when you do not realize that they are unified.

Subconscious communication IS a form of telepathy.

We just love to use labels to "shoo away" and isolate aspects of reality that we can't accept at face value as being extremely interconnective in nature. (Such as the way our subconscious minds are so remarkably interpretive and expressive.)

... my 2 cents anyway.

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: deCypher]
    #8651228 - 07/18/08 01:52 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I've had this sort of sensation before. On one of the earliest mushroom and acid trips in this form of human.

My friends and I sat there, all thinking each other to be inside each other's head trying to steal each other's thoughts.

Well, later when we discussed it, it turned out that we all DID know each other's thoughts, but mostly because we were all thinking along the same selfish line of paranoia.

:shrug:

Think on why this is making you uncomfortable in the first place. Was it just the general sensation, or did you feel at the time that you had something you were hiding that you didn't want out in the open. If the situation is the latter, then maybe you've found a subconscious issue that needs addressing. This is the case surprisingly often.

Ann Shulgin has a great account of something similar in her PIHKAL entry regarding her first mescaline experience. I believe the chapter is called 'Cactus' or 'Buttons', something along those lines.


~Monk

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: numonkei]
    #8651325 - 07/18/08 02:16 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I've gone through crazy shit like that myself, and it wasn't even while I was tripping, for like a week after an acid trip every thing, I mean EVERY SINGLE THING was going along with my thouhgs, like I'd think of something like a question and the next second someone would answer it, I'd start thinking about something, and a person, or something on the radio or TV would finish it.  It was really scary because I thought it meant I was going to die for some reason.  I tried to take my mind off of it but the next second something would happen that would remind me of it again, It was all happening because there was something my subconscious wanted me to learn, once I figured out what that was and accepted it the craziness stopped.  My experience is probably a bit different from what you're going through, but perhaps there's something that your subconscious wants you to learn through it?

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #8651546 - 07/18/08 03:16 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

JacquesCousteau said:
Quote:

The Cypher said: but there is a substantial difference between idealized mental illness and the harsh reality of a paranoid schizophrenic who is convinced that the FBI has mind-control devices to read every thought he has.





Yes, but there is also a substantial difference between the example you gave of a very PARANOID schizophrenic and someone who has calmly and rationally worked into their understanding of reality the idea that we are constantly communicating much more than our mouths are saying. And further, the idea that it is rational to work this into your approach to reality--as opposed to assuming that you have an "untouchable zone" inside yourself in which you can run amok and do/think/fantasize about whatever you want without anyone being the wiser.

I am not schizophrenic.

However, I do believe others can read my thoughts. Only those of certain elevated awareness levels. And certainly not "word for word." More like the feeling behind the thought. I DO most definitely believe that the energy patterns can be interpretted.

I think that you do a great disservice to both the concept of telepathy AND the concept of subconscious communication when you do not realize that they are unified.

Subconscious communication IS a form of telepathy.

We just love to use labels to "shoo away" and isolate aspects of reality that we can't accept at face value as being extremely interconnective in nature. (Such as the way our subconscious minds are so remarkably interpretive and expressive.)

... my 2 cents anyway.




I agree with you... psychedelics do seem to open up that level of subconscious communication and turn into a form of emotional telepathy.  But like you say, word-for-word telepathy is a bit questionable.  My original intent with bringing up the paranoid schizophrenic example was merely to point out that not all schizophrenics are simply misunderstood shamans, as seems to be a common view for a lot of people.

On another note, on my HBWR trip where I succeeded in connecting with my good friend, the times of telepathy (for lack of a better word) appeared in an interesting fashion: at first we only clicked occasionally, then more rapidly, and finally at the peak of experience we were experiencing full-time mental conversations.  Then, accordingly, our times of being on the same wavelength started to jar out of frequency, at first rarely but faster and faster, until the blissful unity stopped altogether.  Anyone else have the same experience?


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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: deCypher]
    #8652115 - 07/18/08 05:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Word for word telepathy is not where it is at.  As I have already said earlier, words are too slow.  Does this make sense?  It is about feeling.  No, not feeling a tingling sensation in your knee.  It's feeling what it is to be the consciousness of that person.  Emotional telepathy?  Yeah you could say that.  Feeling is the language of the universe, not human words and concepts.

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8652122 - 07/18/08 05:37 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I am very interesting in hearing more about "Schizophrenia is not constructed to use as a tool for healing one who is mentally unwell, but a tool for isolating them, and depriving them of entry into our thoughtreality."  Please, do say more....

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: Avalanche]
    #8652290 - 07/18/08 06:20 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

my best advice is watch out for telepathic mind fuckers cause they will and can fuck your mind i have seen my fair share of mind fuckery and done my fair share


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: thedudenj]
    #8653952 - 07/19/08 03:16 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Oh I'm sure you have dude. :rofl:

You going to that gathering in Lake George area for sure?  Can't wait to finally meet the man, the legend, thedudenj. :awesome:

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: deCypher]
    #8654634 - 07/19/08 10:46 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Scientific thought has trouble defining an equation to capture the truth of telepathy. It requires more than four dimensions to properly analyze.




...what? This doesn't even make sense.





It's a statement that modern mathematics does an exceedingly poor job getting dimensions like possibility and probability into meaningful equations- not an implication that I could write such an equation.

Quote:


Regardless, making the metaphysical argument that real life is delusion and schizophrenia is merely "misunderstood magic" might be fine when you're philosophizing, but there is a substantial difference between idealized mental illness and the harsh reality of a paranoid schizophrenic who is convinced that the FBI has mind-control devices to read every thought he has.





As long as you realize that the actual line that divides those metaphysically well from those not is not as simple as our pop-culture term 'schizophrenia' then we may be on a similar page.


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Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: Avalanche]
    #8654672 - 07/19/08 10:55 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Avalanche said:
I am very interesting in hearing more about "Schizophrenia is not constructed to use as a tool for healing one who is mentally unwell, but a tool for isolating them, and depriving them of entry into our thoughtreality."  Please, do say more....




Although many first worlders believe whole heartedly in the use of categorizations like 'Schizophrenia' to separate out and heal our mentally ill, the reality is often not so. The origins of mental illness and the investigation of correction has not been a pleasant path in our culture.

In archaic times shamans would see 'schizophrenic' signs as messages from beyond telling of the emotional state of the bearer, and attempt to heal them with mystical, profound connection to the unknown. Many could be healed into healthy social function, some could not be re integrated into reality the same as the rest; but many of them would be able to then find a place as shamans.

Few would have to live a life in isolation, or end up so 'raving mad' that they would not have a good life.

We in the west took a different approach. Our origins of 'mental medicine' more closely parallel our witch hunting techniques than any previously known healing techniques.

We viewed the mental equation with arrogance, isolating, demeaning, and lobotomizing that which we did not understand.

Things will reform if we let them, but we must be aware of our past blasphemy of the mind, especially with regards to things like mental illness.


--------------------
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Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: truffleupagus]
    #8654769 - 07/19/08 11:25 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TDOTupagus said:
Oh I'm sure you have dude. :rofl:

You going to that gathering in Lake George area for sure?  Can't wait to finally meet the man, the legend, thedudenj. :awesome:





oh im just some simple fellow you can ask others that have met me specially now NYC kinda has drained me of alot of my stuff i need to get away from that place


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours

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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: deCypher]
    #8657895 - 07/20/08 07:13 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
My original intent with bringing up the paranoid schizophrenic example was merely to point out that not all schizophrenics are simply misunderstood shamans, as seems to be a common view for a lot of people.




Okay, cool. Well, I completely agree with this as well. I was simply illustrating the inverse edge of the same blade. :smile: Because--to ME--it seems a much more dominant misunderstanding in our culture is that all misunderstood shamans are schizophrenics. :wink:

And, to me, this represents a much more threatening concept, as it is a means to controlling those who are advancing their awareness to a level that might threaten the "monetary majority" of higher ups in the capitalistic system.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd rather have extra schizophrenics running around because someone thought they were just misunderstood shamans; rather than have all the misunderstood psychedelic users/psychically active people/shamans heavily medicated to control advanced aspects of their psyche under the guise that these are 'problems.'

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #8659868 - 07/20/08 05:19 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

i was taking in under the false pretensis of schizophrenia but then they realize no im not an cut me off the meds cold turkey one being heavy amounts of Benzos which lead to a heart attack and schizophrenia for a week. fuck the hospitals, i also got kicked out of out patient for not being crazy enough and just fucking with them


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"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: thedudenj]
    #8659981 - 07/20/08 05:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

thedudenj said:
Quote:

TDOTupagus said:
Oh I'm sure you have dude. :rofl:

You going to that gathering in Lake George area for sure?  Can't wait to finally meet the man, the legend, thedudenj. :awesome:





oh im just some simple fellow you can ask others that have met me specially now NYC kinda has drained me of alot of my stuff i need to get away from that place




LOL, I was just being a smartass.  But yeah, you seem like you'd be a good person to trip with.  I'd want to get away from the city for a while too.

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: truffleupagus]
    #8660037 - 07/20/08 05:58 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

people generally love tripping with me, i bring a really relaxing calming feeling that will also go in deep and sort things out but not if you dont want to.

i wanna get away from the city i actually retired from raving a few weeks ago and last night bam at another rave, candy braclets all of that stuff.

any who im excited im gona bring my friend from wonderland


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: truffleupagus]
    #8660255 - 07/20/08 06:55 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I'm positive it's real.

This happens to me all the time. I know why too. I always read people and want or assume that I'm insightful enough to believe what I'm feeling is actually from that other person's brain wave.

I like to call it "channeling." It's more positive and controllable on Acid. Mushrooms are always heavier, sometimes even low doses.
One immense experience on acid had me into Bob Dylan's mind when tripping to Mr. Tambourine man. I must say it feels werid and almost scary, but I know it's apart of us if not now; later.

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: WornTraveler]
    #8660288 - 07/20/08 07:04 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

i'd try to get a bitch to fuck me

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: Silent_Vinny]
    #8670527 - 07/23/08 04:02 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Silent_Vinny said:
I'm positive it's real.

This happens to me all the time. I know why too. I always read people and want or assume that I'm insightful enough to believe what I'm feeling is actually from that other person's brain wave.

I like to call it "channeling." It's more positive and controllable on Acid. Mushrooms are always heavier, sometimes even low doses.
One immense experience on acid had me into Bob Dylan's mind when tripping to Mr. Tambourine man. I must say it feels werid and almost scary, but I know it's apart of us if not now; later.




I have had that feeling too, of knowing the thoughts of someone who just recorded or painted something that is in the room with you tripping. Kind of like you are accessing them backwards through the interconnectedness.


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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: mebesideme]
    #8670708 - 07/23/08 06:36 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Last time I tripped, I did it with a friend who I was quite unsure about. I'd known him 2 yrs prior but always thought he was a bit odd at times, and didn't really connect with him.
At one point, I remember feeling only what I can describe as his 'core' (seeing his personally, regardless of physical appearance.
Anyways the rest of the trip continued and I didn't really think much of it.

Since then, I have a new found understanding of him. He also felt the same thing with me. Last time we talked, we both feel like we completley understand the other. And he actually explained me better than I can explain myself. I know it sounds corny, but we're best buds now.

Don't really believe in 'telepathy', but I do believe shrooms have some strange powers.


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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: truffleupagus]
    #8670803 - 07/23/08 07:53 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Mmmm... this is gonna sound crazy. People using shrooms belong to a closed group. The stronger you are or  higher in the hierarchy the less you'll be influenced by the group of people who are normal. The group of people that are normal are those that try and follow mainstream non-drug using society. This group has a strong self-protection system, which means that psychologists and therapist are there to protect this group from outside influences that may undermine society as they want it to be. Now, because you use shrooms, you belong to the influencing factors... so the therapists and psychologists have subconsious access to our minds, and they use this power to turn us off from using shrooms and drugs in general. But, when you are in the top of the drug-using hierarchy as i said earlier then they can't get to you very well, so you'll feel less bothered by their attempts to stop you in what you do. And thats not all. Even those who don't use drugs but who try and keep a different lifestyle are being forced into changin g their lifestyle in the same way. The shrooms just make it clearer that you are being manipulated... anyway, my advice is that whatever you do, make sure you stand firm and don't move from your position... they will not stop manipulating you. Know what you believe! Bless.
And you thought you were crazy!

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: Ahimsa]
    #8670822 - 07/23/08 08:14 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

There are a lot of ways to say it, the human uses only the 10% of the brain or the brain have great powers we dont know or ...
I had many times this kind of experiences and not only me, the think is not how it happened but how are you receive it! some after this kind of experiences involves with the church, others want to know more and involves with drugs usually after some time are junkies , others...
Point to your view of the world and leave the truth untouched... And i mean look everything as you like better, make fun or make a (small) theory its not importand. The truth is that you have to have fun!! enjoy it.

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: Ahimsa]
    #8671160 - 07/23/08 10:32 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Mmmm... this is gonna sound crazy. People using shrooms belong to a closed group. The stronger you are or  higher in the hierarchy the less you'll be influenced by the group of people who are normal. The group of people that are normal are those that try and follow mainstream non-drug using society. This group has a strong self-protection system, which means that psychologists and therapist are there to protect this group from outside influences that may undermine society as they want it to be. Now, because you use shrooms, you belong to the influencing factors... so the therapists and psychologists have subconsious access to our minds, and they use this power to turn us off from using shrooms and drugs in general. But, when you are in the top of the drug-using hierarchy as i said earlier then they can't get to you very well, so you'll feel less bothered by their attempts to stop you in what you do. And thats not all. Even those who don't use drugs but who try and keep a different lifestyle are being forced into changin g their lifestyle in the same way. The shrooms just make it clearer that you are being manipulated... anyway, my advice is that whatever you do, make sure you stand firm and don't move from your position... they will not stop manipulating you. Know what you believe! Bless.
And you thought you were crazy!





yeah man i dont think magic circles are exactly that way and its ovbiously not about shrooms thats just telepathic magic people in general


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: thedudenj]
    #8671173 - 07/23/08 10:37 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

What are magic circles?

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Invisiblethedudenj
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: Ahimsa]
    #8671224 - 07/23/08 10:52 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

exactly


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: WornTraveler]
    #8671570 - 07/23/08 12:23 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Having delusional thoughts while not on drugs is a sign of a possible mental disorder. I'd get it checked out by a psychologist if I were you. It could easily lead to psychosis if left unchecked. One delusion leads to many more delusions, and pretty soon you start making false explanations for things and start to go down the path of a lunatic. It's happened to me, and I know that delusional thoughts were the first signs of my first and only psychotic episode.

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: stainer711]
    #8671692 - 07/23/08 12:46 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

didn't read the thread, but people can read your thoughts.

either control your thoughts, put up barriers, or stop worrying.


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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8671708 - 07/23/08 12:48 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

LOL ^^

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: stainer711]
    #8671729 - 07/23/08 12:54 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

stainer just read your post above mine.

it could just be through physical means like body language, tone of voice, subconscious messages embedded in speech.

but it does happen.

that being said stainer is completely right about being very careful with false explanations for things and the slippery slope of giving into drug delusions.


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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: WornTraveler]
    #8671900 - 07/23/08 01:37 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

:nothingtoadd:

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8672196 - 07/23/08 02:47 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

To OP:
I too have been through what you describe a few times.  One time, me and two other friends tripped late at night after a night of hearty drinking.  At its peak, when we were all tripping hard, I was able to, at will, increase the intensity of their trip just by concentrating on my own.  It was really crazy.  They begged me to stop, but I had no idea what was happening.  Later I freaked because I realized they could read my thoughts.  I didn't want to believe it, but I couldn't help myself.  Immediately afterwards, and even now, I still don't know what to think--whether it was a profound delusion or real... 

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned failing in trying to confirm the validity of telepathy, yet was able to will someone else to speak.  I think that in itself, is at least a 'form' of telepathy and could be experimentally verified with a sober third party.

The implications, if what we've experienced is truly real, is staggering

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: stainer711]
    #8672267 - 07/23/08 03:05 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

stainer711 said:
Having delusional thoughts while not on drugs is a sign of a possible mental disorder. I'd get it checked out by a psychologist if I were you. It could easily lead to psychosis if left unchecked. One delusion leads to many more delusions, and pretty soon you start making false explanations for things and start to go down the path of a lunatic. It's happened to me, and I know that delusional thoughts were the first signs of my first and only psychotic episode.




whoes that direceted at cause i got checked out and im good


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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: thedudenj]
    #8673274 - 07/23/08 07:12 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

What needs to be noted on this topic is under the influence of strong mind altering drugs, it is perception that is distorted not reality.
In the case of 'willing someone to speak', you can be thinking about that and your brain can make the connection when someone speaks, to you willing them.

I think If shrooms/lsd ect. actually unlocked telepathic powers, our governments would already be onto it, using it in a variety of fields. (Although probably still illegal for the average person)

I'll admit, hallucinogenics do seem to make you believe some really strange things. But as I think it's been said before, after doing them, you can understand what it's like to be insane.
Also noting, a truly insane person does not believe themselves to be insane.

Trip safe!


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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: polantis]
    #8673638 - 07/23/08 08:49 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

governments are concerned with psychic research.

psychedelics actually impair control of telepathic function though, so they wouldn't be useful if you wanted to study telepathy.


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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8673736 - 07/23/08 09:12 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

You watch too much medium lol.
In an evolutionary sense, the human race has no use for telepathy. We use language/body language.
As I said though, the human brain is a powerful organ that even the most brilliant people in the world still do not understand. I consider Telepathy to be a thought/emotion, that in itself is not directly linked to reality, but due to the complex programming of the mind can seem real, like Deja-vu.
Although, through-out many cultures these things are regarded as true, I approach this from a scientific point of veiw. Even in the animal kingdom, no such 'Telepathy' has been recorded, only phenomena like Sonar, Chemical and vibrational communication.

But of coarse, if anyone has certified evidence of Telepathy, I would love to be proved wrong.


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8674313 - 07/23/08 11:22 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

truekimbo2 said:
governments are concerned with psychic research.

psychedelics actually impair control of telepathic function though, so they wouldn't be useful if you wanted to study telepathy.




I don't think psychedelics impair it, I think they make it a self-aware process. The government relies on keeping telepathy in channels that are not visible in our consciousness- in keeping it locked up in definitions that border on our fear of insanity.


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The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: polantis]
    #8674336 - 07/23/08 11:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

polantis said:
What needs to be noted on this topic is under the influence of strong mind altering drugs, it is perception that is distorted not reality.





Feel free to bring science here, I enjoy science. But this fact is not. Your logic is broken.

Perception is reality. There is no reality beyond perception. Only arrogance.


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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8674342 - 07/23/08 11:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

:nothingtoadd:

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8675828 - 07/24/08 10:44 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Feel free to bring science here, I enjoy science. But this fact is not. Your logic is broken.

Perception is reality. There is no reality beyond perception. Only arrogance.




If you really want to play hard-ball and claim that there is no reality beyond what you perceive, then you can't use or "enjoy" science at all.  Science requires taking a hypothesis and proceeding to test it--if nothing is real save your own thoughts and illusory sensory perceptions, then it is impossible to test any hypothesis.  The only logical conclusion you can come to from your viewpoint is that you yourself exist, nothing more.

Put down the metaphysics for a while and come back when you no longer believe that other people are no more real than the imaginary actors in your dreams.

(And yes, I am playing Devil's Advocate here. :P)


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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: deCypher]
    #8676115 - 07/24/08 12:02 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Feel free to bring science here, I enjoy science. But this fact is not. Your logic is broken.

Perception is reality. There is no reality beyond perception. Only arrogance.




If you really want to play hard-ball and claim that there is no reality beyond what you perceive, then you can't use or "enjoy" science at all.  Science requires taking a hypothesis and proceeding to test it--if nothing is real save your own thoughts and illusory sensory perceptions, then it is impossible to test any hypothesis.  The only logical conclusion you can come to from your viewpoint is that you yourself exist, nothing more.

Put down the metaphysics for a while and come back when you no longer believe that other people are no more real than the imaginary actors in your dreams.

(And yes, I am playing Devil's Advocate here. :P)




Science requires taking a hypothesis which has already been fully actualized into comprehensive reality. The hypothesis is to be understood at the time of experimental design. When proceeding to test it the understood hypothesis is enacted into materials the way a perceived melody is enacted into sound. Experience (experimental observation) follows, the response of the senses to the enaction. Nothing is experienced in the domain between the enaction and the sensory response to the enaction.


Science is powerful, but only as powerful as your understanding of it. I enjoy science because I respect it for what it is.


Putting down metaphysics for a while is what you have been bread to believe is possible. There is no separation between the metaphysical and the "real"- this belief that there is; is the vulnerability we have been bestowed so that we will bend so easily for this machine.


You have no way of knowing that I am not simply an actor in your dreams.
You only have the choice to believe. Recognize the choice you are making- not as the wrong one, but as a choice none the less.


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Know your source.

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8676658 - 07/24/08 02:52 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said: You have no way of knowing that I am not simply an actor in your dreams. You only have the choice to believe. Recognize the choice you are making- not as the wrong one, but as a choice none the less.




I recognize this choice perfectly well.  If I were to base my worldview on an absolutely logical perspective, then dreams have just as much validity as normal sensory perception.  But there are a few damning things that point towards your not being a figment of my imagination, however.  The fact that I have the context of your previous posts, memory of your having made them, and knowledge that so far our conversation has been made in a logical sense all give high credence (not absolute, but probabilistic) to the fact that you are NOT part of my dream, but instead have some form of outside existence.  Dreams tend to have fragmented story-lines, disjointed characters, and an essential component of irrationality that simply does not show up in our waking life.  Lucid dreamers take advantage of this fact, for instance, to tell when they are dreaming vs. when they are not: look at a piece of text, look away, and then look back again.  In a dream, the words will usually be jumbled or completely different.

The continuity of our discussion thus far has given significant evidence in this regard to give me reason for belief that you are not an actor in my dream.  It's not certain (as I've stated, the only certain thing is that I exist), but more evidence lies on that side for me to possess a judgement.  Your attitude that "there is no separation between the metaphysical and the 'real'" implies that both have equal ontological value, and this is not true.  To truly live as if there is no reality beyond perception would give impetus for you to run amok in your imaginary world; killing all in your way and seizing whatever you saw fit to take.  If you have no qualms about assaulting a dream actor, then why not assault anyone who displeases you in the "real" world?


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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: deCypher]
    #8679173 - 07/25/08 03:34 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I somewhat understand both your points.


Although....
"There is no separation between the metaphysical and the "real""

To agree with this, is to agree that everything metaphysical exists in reality. But this cannot be proved through either philosophy or science.

I always thought, perception was what we 'perceive' of the 'real' world. Not, perception 'is' the 'real' world.

Although, maybe we should take this to Philosophy/Spiritually Forum


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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: deCypher]
    #8681012 - 07/25/08 04:31 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Quote:

ExplosiveMango said: You have no way of knowing that I am not simply an actor in your dreams. You only have the choice to believe. Recognize the choice you are making- not as the wrong one, but as a choice none the less.




I recognize this choice perfectly well.  If I were to base my worldview on an absolutely logical perspective, then dreams have just as much validity as normal sensory perception.  But there are a few damning things that point towards your not being a figment of my imagination, however.  The fact that I have the context of your previous posts, memory of your having made them, and knowledge that so far our conversation has been made in a logical sense all give high credence (not absolute, but probabilistic) to the fact that you are NOT part of my dream, but instead have some form of outside existence.  Dreams tend to have fragmented story-lines, disjointed characters, and an essential component of irrationality that simply does not show up in our waking life.  Lucid dreamers take advantage of this fact, for instance, to tell when they are dreaming vs. when they are not: look at a piece of text, look away, and then look back again.  In a dream, the words will usually be jumbled or completely different.

The continuity of our discussion thus far has given significant evidence in this regard to give me reason for belief that you are not an actor in my dream.  It's not certain (as I've stated, the only certain thing is that I exist), but more evidence lies on that side for me to possess a judgement.  Your attitude that "there is no separation between the metaphysical and the 'real'" implies that both have equal ontological value, and this is not true.  To truly live as if there is no reality beyond perception would give impetus for you to run amok in your imaginary world; killing all in your way and seizing whatever you saw fit to take.  If you have no qualms about assaulting a dream actor, then why not assault anyone who displeases you in the "real" world?




This argument pushes you even farther into your arrogance-fiction reality. You make the assumption each time that there will eventually be a 'truth' where you can rest your argument and have any other succumb to your belief of reality. In this rebuttal you take for granted that you can simply state your awareness of the nature of reality VS dream and have it so.

Your premonition of reality and dream may very well be in close agreement with what lies beyond senses, I am not a god to know, nor you. You can only defeat your own argument when you attempt to prove that your 'reality' is as such- (that it is real beyond denial). Your reality is simply a collection of information which has been allowed in contact with human senses over the ages and distilled through communications.

There is no way you can know what lies beyond the border of those senses. Certainly you will pursue premonitions of reality- most likely the hard sort like 'civilized' man prefers. But fact will come down to fact- nothing has been experienced outside of senses.

Jumping to conclusions about consequence and cause-effect relationships in dream is another illustration of your reliance on sensory arrogance based assumptions. You assume because you believed you were dreaming while you slept, and because you feel differently now, that this may not be another context of dream. There is no way for us to know that this is not a form of dream simply because of the sensations of permanence or logic.

You extend this dis-logic to suggest that I believe that whatever lies beyond the senses will betray notions of logic or permanence. I stated no such belief.

You say you understand your choice of belief perfectly well. Your next sentence illuminates this fallacy immediately- you cannot have an absolutely logical worldview- another artifact of belief forms a jagged edge in your mind.

The metaphysical is inseparable from the real. You are given the hypnotic notion of the existence of a 'tree' and a 'god' in the same manner. Both are intellectual artifacts, hypnotic conduits formed in your mind, summoned into reality by your willingness to let them stick to your mind. Simply because 'tree' communicates an easily evoked experience does not make the existence of this entity any different from the existence of 'god'. Both are mental permanence's, simply because you take the part of you called 'tree' and tie it tightly to your experience of what you believe to be a 'real tree' does not make the notion of the tree any more 'absolutely real' in your reality- only more believed.

You comply with convention more and more uniformly as your argument progresses. The fundamentalist funnel of singular reality belief is designed as a feedback system- you take offense to my argument which disagrees with your reality and use this as a signaling mechanism to tie yourself tighter to it. You allow yourself to associate hostility with my beliefs because they are different than your own and you have been hypnotized to do so (burn the witch. it will run amok and attack.).

Why would you think I would ever assault a dream character when I respect the unknown so highly?

Only because I threaten your notion of reality.

Stop fighting it. Know what you might be, stop telling yourself what you are.


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Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8681231 - 07/25/08 05:32 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

explosivemango.  i don't quite understand what you're trying to say, but i can tell you're wrong, because the language you use implies you understand how the cypher thinks, which as far as i can understand your argument, is unlikely.


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8683657 - 07/26/08 10:31 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Negative.
The language I use shows that I know cypher thinks he understands how he thinks better than he can.

I always find it weird when people here can't follow even the most basic existential arguments... this is supposed to be where you find experts. Shrug.

My argument is very simple, and it is very easy to demonstrate that it cannot be experientially disproven. I don't see how anyone can miss it- oh well- we live in a reality where thousands die every day because people chose to forgo true understanding. I guess I shouldn't expect voluntary understanding even here.

Nothing has been experienced of the outer world beyond the senses, only believed. Truth is only trust of communication. Reality is only interpertation of experience.


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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8684552 - 07/26/08 02:59 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:  you take offense to my argument which disagrees with your reality and use this as a signaling mechanism to tie yourself tighter to it. You allow yourself to associate hostility with my beliefs because they are different than your own and you have been hypnotized to do so (burn the witch. it will run amok and attack.).



:lol:  Did you miss the part where I said I'm playing devil's advocate?  If anything, my personal beliefs coincide more with your notion of subjective perception constituting the whole of reality than anything else--I'm merely providing arguments in favor of the other side for the sake of interesting discussion, and because it's always good to argue against one's self from time to time.  It's far more intriguing to try to provide support for the existence of a real world than it is to fall back on the easy position that all we can know are our sensory perceptions, you know.  Argument does not constitute belief, and you seem to think that by providing a counter-point to equal-opportunity ontology I'm being hostile? :confused:

Quote:

Only because I threaten your notion of reality.

Stop fighting it. Know what you might be, stop telling yourself what you are.




Mmhm.  So instead of thinking critically about our own ideas, we should rather "stop fighting" alternative viewpoints and accept blindly whatever someone tells us?  If you claim to know the truth, back it up with a logical argument and avoid getting emotionally invested in your own beliefs.


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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: deCypher]
    #8684663 - 07/26/08 03:20 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


This argument pushes you even farther into your arrogance-fiction reality.




what is an arrogance-fiction reality?

Quote:

You make the assumption each time that there will eventually be a 'truth' where you can rest your argument and have any other succumb to your belief of reality.




have any other what succumb to his belief of reality?

Quote:

Your reality is simply a collection of information which has been allowed in contact with human senses over the ages and distilled through communications.


 

its actually distilled through much more than communications.

Quote:

There is no way you can know what lies beyond the border of those senses. Certainly you will pursue premonitions of reality- most likely the hard sort like 'civilized' man prefers. But fact will come down to fact- nothing has been experienced outside of senses.




there are techniques for discovering what exists outside of the senses.  ask scientists... do you think they should have just given up on trying to figure out what DNA looks like instead of developing machines to observe it?

it works the same with philosophy.

Quote:

You comply with convention more and more uniformly as your argument progresses. The fundamentalist funnel of singular reality belief is designed as a feedback system- you take offense to my argument which disagrees with your reality and use this as a signaling mechanism to tie yourself tighter to it. You allow yourself to associate hostility with my beliefs because they are different than your own and you have been hypnotized to do so (burn the witch. it will run amok and attack.).




apparently you were completely wrong about this.



so yeah i think your writing is confusing, and your argument that nothing outside the senses has ever been perceived is pretty obviously wrong since humans have been doing it nonstop for a long time now.

not to mention that i was also correct that you did not accurately understand the other guy's thoughts.


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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: mebesideme]
    #8686028 - 07/26/08 09:44 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

lol shit happens even with budz

check this qoute from a white stripes signal "You'd think not saying is telling the truth"

there are slip ups but i URGE you to steer away from you know i Know, it will only cause miscommunication and doubt whether for good or bad you will think things youd rather not

I GAURANTTEE

hence why i do less thinkin everyday, leave that for the zzzzzz's

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: Konyap]
    #8686131 - 07/26/08 10:00 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

What the OP needs is one of these so Charles cant read his mind!


Edited by Boomshrooms (07/26/08 10:01 PM)

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: deCypher]
    #8687664 - 07/27/08 09:44 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:  you take offense to my argument which disagrees with your reality and use this as a signaling mechanism to tie yourself tighter to it. You allow yourself to associate hostility with my beliefs because they are different than your own and you have been hypnotized to do so (burn the witch. it will run amok and attack.).



:lol:  Did you miss the part where I said I'm playing devil's advocate?  If anything, my personal beliefs coincide more with your notion of subjective perception constituting the whole of reality than anything else--I'm merely providing arguments in favor of the other side for the sake of interesting discussion, and because it's always good to argue against one's self from time to time.  It's far more intriguing to try to provide support for the existence of a real world than it is to fall back on the easy position that all we can know are our sensory perceptions, you know.  Argument does not constitute belief, and you seem to think that by providing a counter-point to equal-opportunity ontology I'm being hostile? :confused:

Quote:

Only because I threaten your notion of reality.

Stop fighting it. Know what you might be, stop telling yourself what you are.




Mmhm.  So instead of thinking critically about our own ideas, we should rather "stop fighting" alternative viewpoints and accept blindly whatever someone tells us?  If you claim to know the truth, back it up with a logical argument and avoid getting emotionally invested in your own beliefs.




Don't worry, I understand the advocacy. When you play this you fall back on a character role however, the dissection of this character is a logical counterpoint. Don't worry, I don't emotionally invest very much over the internet. ; )

I just suggested you stop fighting because your advocacy falls into a combative pattern- not a logical argumentative pattern.


We may not want to focus on my beliefs in this argument because we haven't discussed them- this is empirical evaluation only. (The only belief of my own that I stated is that niether you or I are god)


Please don't trick yourself into thinking that disbelieving fundamentals, and honestly evaluating the boundary of truth as the boundary of the senses- is in any way an easy world view. It is only the most modern sciences which are beginning to develop logical approaches to studying the universe without assuming it into a biased existence first (mostly quantum, string theory, M-theory). The easy approach is Newtonian- evaluating hard results based on hard assumptions- we now know Newtonian by itself will not take us very far in the grand scheme. Those of us involved generally agree that the absolutism of Newtonian is false in the relativity of this universe.

The scientific community has become smart enough in this day and age to rely on the fact that the universe enters through our senses- not through our assumptions- when moving forward into new theory.

One thing we have seen with regards to viewing the universe as a fundamental place is that it is utilitarian- as soon as you assume F = MA for example you may predict resulting velocities and positions from inciting forces. But all of us who have been educated seriously in science are expected to conceed that truly F does not equal MA.




Perhaps a concise rephrasing of my single point:
You have never experienced anything from the outside world that did not enter you through your senses.

This is my only argument, the rest is simply elaboration, attempting to bring understanding.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

Edited by ExplosiveMango (07/27/08 09:53 AM)

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8687768 - 07/27/08 10:14 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

truekimbo2 said:
Quote:


This argument pushes you even farther into your arrogance-fiction reality.




what is an arrogance-fiction reality?





Reality assumed to fit a pattern you believe.

Quote:


Quote:

You make the assumption each time that there will eventually be a 'truth' where you can rest your argument and have any other succumb to your belief of reality.




have any other what succumb to his belief of reality?





Any other person.
Many assimilators expect assimilatees to succumb to beliefs of reality. Witches were burned if they refused to relinquish their plant-healing beliefs. Slaves were beaten until they relinquished their sacred names or until they died. The assimilator is a role our society has taught us to play.

Quote:


Quote:

Your reality is simply a collection of information which has been allowed in contact with human senses over the ages and distilled through communications.


 

its actually distilled through much more than communications.





You must be missing what I intend to encompass with the word communication.

My meaning is 'anything that transmits information back to the senses again'.

Quote:


Quote:

There is no way you can know what lies beyond the border of those senses. Certainly you will pursue premonitions of reality- most likely the hard sort like 'civilized' man prefers. But fact will come down to fact- nothing has been experienced outside of senses.




there are techniques for discovering what exists outside of the senses.  ask scientists... do you think they should have just given up on trying to figure out what DNA looks like instead of developing machines to observe it?

it works the same with philosophy.





I work with science in the field of engineering. Many of my best friends who I philosophize with daily are professional scientists.

Have you studied quantum physics? I won't bother getting into much detail but rest assured that scientists are slowly becoming intelligent enough to recognize the fallacy of all assumption.

You might like the book 'The Tao of Physics'.

PS: Also keep in mind that the senses have been extended by machines, DNA is perfectly viewable in today's world.

Quote:


Quote:

You comply with convention more and more uniformly as your argument progresses. The fundamentalist funnel of singular reality belief is designed as a feedback system- you take offense to my argument which disagrees with your reality and use this as a signaling mechanism to tie yourself tighter to it. You allow yourself to associate hostility with my beliefs because they are different than your own and you have been hypnotized to do so (burn the witch. it will run amok and attack.).




apparently you were completely wrong about this.





I can't evaluate your opinion without any hint as to its development. You might understand me more easily if you picture that comment directed toward the character Cypher played, as opposed to Cypher himself.

Quote:


so yeah i think your writing is confusing, and your argument that nothing outside the senses has ever been perceived is pretty obviously wrong since humans have been doing it nonstop for a long time now.

not to mention that i was also correct that you did not accurately understand the other guy's thoughts.




It looks like you have been stroking your perception of reality quite nicely, giving it treats if you will. I don't think anyone has proven me wrong. I think Cypher might have a better idea about what I'm getting at than you think he does.

But I really suggest that you take some time to study at least intro quantum physics if you still believe scientists picture a reality where they can see more than they have seen. We simply acknowledge the mechanical extension of the senses here in science... perhaps you are under the impression that I am refuting that? I'm not.

My argument has never had anything to do with giving up. I intend to solve significant scientific, and hopefully philosophical, problems in my lifetime.


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Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8689528 - 07/27/08 06:27 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Perhaps a concise rephrasing of my single point:
You have never experienced anything from the outside world that did not enter you through your senses.




I find your point rather interesting, in that you use the phrase "outside world."  If there is no reality beyond perception, then you can't talk about an outside world at all.  At best, you can only assume that there exist "things" apart from yourself, and that these things cause our perceptions--but that's a leap of faith, not science.  One has to assume the existence of reality apart from our senses to get anywhere at all, or else attempting to do science will be no better than trying to measure the curvature of space/time from within a dream.

You mentioned earlier that I have no way of knowing that you're not an actor in my dream.  By the same token, you have no way of knowing that the world didn't pop into existence two minutes ago, and yet you would hardly consent to this if you're attempting to do science.  Why bother figuring out how stars work, how chemical reactions occur, or even how the synapses in our brains fire if all we can ever know are mere vagaries of the flesh; mere flukes of the imagination condensed from sensory perceptions?

I think we mutually agree on the philosophical view that you hold, but my original point was that you have to assume that external reality exists in order to say anything truly meaningful, and that there is some sort of precedence that it holds over our other perceptions (such as a psychedelic trip or dreams).  If not, then why do we gleefully leap off cliffs in our dreams when to do the same in real life would be to invite death?  Why should we not listen to the voices of a paranoid schizophrenic that tell him to kill his family and himself, if it's just as valid as the voices we hear in ordinary life and assume that they come from real people?

Despite how hard one clings on to the notion that all reality is subjective, one still needs to make the basic assumption that some reality is more real than others.  Even though you deny this, the very fact that you spend the time to post on this message-board and talk to other people shows that you accept external reality as real.  Sure, I can't prove that the external world exists, but I'm forced to make that assumption--otherwise, everything becomes meaningless.


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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: deCypher]
    #8689576 - 07/27/08 06:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)



--------------------
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: deCypher]
    #8689658 - 07/27/08 07:06 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)


Quote:

The Cypher said:
Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Perhaps a concise rephrasing of my single point:
You have never experienced anything from the outside world that did not enter you through your senses.




I find your point rather interesting, in that you use the phrase "outside world."  If there is no reality beyond perception, then you can't talk about an outside world at all.  At best, you can only assume that there exist "things" apart from yourself, and that these things cause our perceptions--but that's a leap of faith, not science.  One has to assume the existence of reality apart from our senses to get anywhere at all, or else attempting to do science will be no better than trying to measure the curvature of space/time from within a dream.





Perfect. Exactly. When I say 'outside world' I can be speaking only of faith (not necessarily assumption). I would say that is just about exactly the point I have been trying to make.

Quote:


You mentioned earlier that I have no way of knowing that you're not an actor in my dream.  By the same token, you have no way of knowing that the world didn't pop into existence two minutes ago, and yet you would hardly consent to this if you're attempting to do science.





We are in agreement, I do not have any way of knowing this with absolute certainty.

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
(You are not a god to know, nor I)




I likely would not acknowledge this if I were formulating an RF circuit. If I were attempting to reformulate a unified theory I would very likely try and account for this sort of truth. I suppose it would have to do with what sort of relativity I was working within in my science.

Quote:

  Why bother figuring out how stars work, how chemical reactions occur, or even how the synapses in our brains fire if all we can ever know are mere vagaries of the flesh; mere flukes of the imagination condensed from sensory perceptions?





This is what they call 'Argument by Rhetorical Question' in the philosophy header thread I just read, hehe.

But I will indulge: I would figure these things out in the name of depth of sensation- as our minds develop we begin to understand how to seek things like beauty and understanding. Just because I won't know if reality is real or not does not mean I will not feel the beauty or understanding.

Quote:


I think we mutually agree on the philosophical view that you hold, but my original point was that you have to assume that external reality exists in order to say anything truly meaningful, and that there is some sort of precedence that it holds over our other perceptions (such as a psychedelic trip or dreams).  If not, then why do we gleefully leap off cliffs in our dreams when to do the same in real life would be to invite death?  Why should we not listen to the voices of a paranoid schizophrenic that tell him to kill his family and himself, if it's just as valid as the voices we hear in ordinary life and assume that they come from real people?





I would suggest that believing reality exists without assuming may transcend assumption. I believe that hypnotic structures in the mind are still just as powerful in the end when they are pulled into the light of humility/relativity. (Although I understand V does not equal IR truly and absolutely: I can still accurately predict the resonance frequency of an RLC circuit with this relationship)

Quote:


Despite how hard one clings on to the notion that all reality is subjective, one still needs to make the basic assumption that some reality is more real than others. 





Through stronger belief alone is my opinion.

Quote:

Even though you deny this,




I don't, I simply reason it differently.

Quote:

the very fact that you spend the time to post on this message-board and talk to other people shows that you accept external reality as real.




I think the points you made about it being possible for me to simply be in a state of refusal to understand reality could be the case- I do not believe they are the case since I view my interpretation of reality as a way to delve deeper within it- but if this were the case could I not indulge reality without accepting it as real?

Quote:

Sure, I can't prove that the external world exists, but I'm forced to make that assumption--otherwise, everything becomes meaningless.




And this false dichotomy you demonstrate is the means by which you force your belief. :mushroom2:


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

Edited by ExplosiveMango (07/27/08 07:14 PM)

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8689699 - 07/27/08 07:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Perhaps I should have said:

Quote:

Sure, I can't prove that the external world exists, but I'm forced to make that assumption in order to function in society and do science--otherwise, everything becomes meaningless.




But no matter; I just wanted to point out that one has to assume the existence of an external reality that has more validity than other subjective realities in order to get anywhere meaningful, which your original posts seemed to reject.  In the end, we mostly appear to agree.

It's been an intriguing conversation with a figment of my imagination, though. :P


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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: deCypher]
    #8689827 - 07/27/08 07:48 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Agreed, mostly discrepant in terms of what sort of context we are operating.

I took it to mean, for example, that an "assumption" was to be a part of the encompassing belief system-
I am starting to see you intend it more as a model within an operational relativity. We should probably let old dogs die in this thread I guess, not that that is a real expression.

Perhaps we should more have been debating the difference between assumptions and beliefs.


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Know your self.
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Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: truffleupagus]
    #8690039 - 07/27/08 08:51 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

omg i feel as if i can read ppls mind while triping, espescailly if they're tripping too... i love it...


--------------------
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: Antii]
    #8690142 - 07/27/08 09:16 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


But I really suggest that you take some time to study at least intro quantum physics if you still believe scientists picture a reality where they can see more than they have seen. We simply acknowledge the mechanical extension of the senses here in science..




quantum physics is largely theoretical, in other words, there are alot of things we can't perceive through senses natural or artificial, but using logic and intuition, have come to believe exist.

the reality outside the senses can be guessed at.  then they design an experiment to test the guess, the experiment gives us information our senses can take in, and at some point the unknowable becomes known.

has any person or machine detected the higgs bosun? 
has any person or machine detected dark matter?

obvious truth is obvious, people can perceive things outside of their senses.


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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8690860 - 07/27/08 11:38 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

truekimbo2 said: obvious truth is obvious, people can perceive things outside of their senses.




We may be able to formulate a guess as to what exists outside of our senses, but by definition we can never perceive it: all we can ever know comes automatically filtered through our sensory perceptions.  The point is not to say that dark matter and higgs bosons don't exist; instead, the point is to say that we can never be absolutely certain of their existence.


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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: deCypher]
    #8690936 - 07/27/08 11:57 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

assuming they do exist, at some point we'll make a machine that tells us that we were correct in postulating its existence. to try and argue that we can never be absolutely certain of anything is old hat, and covered by greater minds than us.

"formulating a guess" would be one of the methods we use to perceive beyond our senses.  if there was no real perception of external objects or processes going on, it would never match up with reality, which it does.

so its somewhat common we perceive beyond our senses.


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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8690965 - 07/28/08 12:07 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

also: just for the record i found this whole conversation tedious and boring.  this is all stuff
a) i've thought all of on my own long ago
b) a bajillion other people have thought of and debated for hundreds of years, and there is plenty of writing on the topic.

philosophically, absolutely nothing in this thread is something i hadn't thought of myself already AND read in books.

if you're here expecting experts, then why bring grade school material.


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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8691682 - 07/28/08 09:30 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

truekimbo2 said:

has any person or machine detected the higgs bosun? 
has any person or machine detected dark matter?






No, these phenomena currently reside only in belief, not in sensation (they might never reach sensation).

Time dilation on the other hand has been experimentally shown- seen with our own two (extended) eyes. We have seen time dilation like we have seen the "tree".


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Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8691687 - 07/28/08 09:33 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

truekimbo2 said:
also: just for the record i found this whole conversation tedious and boring.  this is all stuff
a) i've thought all of on my own long ago
b) a bajillion other people have thought of and debated for hundreds of years, and there is plenty of writing on the topic.

philosophically, absolutely nothing in this thread is something i hadn't thought of myself already AND read in books.

if you're here expecting experts, then why bring grade school material.





You haven't demonstrated that you've understood a thing I've said. You've just told me several times that you could prove the improvable, and not done so in the process.


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Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Invisiblethedudenj
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: deCypher]
    #8692781 - 07/28/08 03:14 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

indeed, pip pip cherio and such.

hmm theres no evidance that i just patted my head, thats like me asking you did i pat my head, how hard, how did it feel, and what did it look like, specially cause i can see my self patting my head fully just my arm


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours

Edited by thedudenj (07/28/08 03:36 PM)

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: thedudenj]
    #8693282 - 07/28/08 05:18 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

i'm really surprised you're having trouble grasping what i'm saying about dna, the higgs bosun, ect.

the W and Z bosun were never directly or indirectly detected prior to 1979.  they were first postulated to exist in the 1960s.

how could people have predicted something that they had absolutely no ability to sense, if there aren't processes for understanding and exploring the unknown.

get it?


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Invisiblethedudenj
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8693516 - 07/28/08 06:22 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

same can besaid about the Mandelbrot set it was a theory and computers reall proved it


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours

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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8695493 - 07/29/08 12:18 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

truekimbo2 said:
i'm really surprised you're having trouble grasping what i'm saying about dna, the higgs bosun, ect.

the W and Z bosun were never directly or indirectly detected prior to 1979.  they were first postulated to exist in the 1960s.

how could people have predicted something that they had absolutely no ability to sense, if there aren't processes for understanding and exploring the unknown.

get it?




Prediction is an internal process; construction of a model of belief and hoping for agreement with responding stimulus to the senses. All affirmation that the model is in fact "correct" or "correct with regards to the unknown" is a belief composed internally based on sensory information and past impressions.

(Past impressions were created in response to past sensory stimulus, if you want it explicit...)

Get it?





Although I'm not sure why understanding the unknown says anything about the proof of an outside reality. Are you saying there are no unknowns within the self?

And with regards to the theory prior to experiment comment; the same was true for most experiments, why would you bother to point that out? I am not trying to disprove prediction or theory. The time dilation effect too was theoretically conceived long before the experiment was designed.



I am quite sure you believe there is some fixed collective reality, I also know you don't know it. What else can I say?


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Know your self.
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Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Invisiblethedudenj
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Re: Mushroom Telepathic Paranoia [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8696678 - 07/29/08 10:05 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

WOW that was the funniest and most intellegent thing i have heard here in a while. hmm cant you say that you and your friend setting next to each other are sitting in a collective reality and thru the act of being there know it? 

cause i dunno its like saying then i dont know that im sitting here and i dont know your sitting there and i dont know that we wrote this cause i just cant accept that this is collective reality it action.

unless you mean something totally differnt from where i went with that. Basically i am a retarded baby :crazy2: :discorex:
and dont know what im saying or mean. but some how im doubting alot of people belive that either


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours

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