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InvisibleShad0w
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Re: Properly articulating what it is to trip [Re: JstHereFrTheCake]
    #8643650 - 07/16/08 04:52 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I mean I know this is
the internet and everyone acts like a fuck, but do any of you think at all before you type shit in here?




lol.

Not usually.


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OfflinePlatinum
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Re: Properly articulating what it is to trip [Re: JstHereFrTheCake]
    #8643664 - 07/16/08 04:53 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I'm just tryin to get you all goin here... im just kidding. I would never tell someone to dose someone without them knowing, unless they asked for it like my friend did.

i was just joking around, he obviously wouldnt do that, especially considering all your reactions to my comments. if he did... well hes just dumb and i feel bad for his friend.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Properly articulating what it is to trip [Re: TheHauntingSoul]
    #8644067 - 07/16/08 06:34 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

TheHauntingSoul said:
Ok sorry for making 2 somewhat similar threads in the same night but this friend of mine who is interested in trying psychadelic drugs has this absolutely rediculous unmovable position on something and i have to hear the input i get from you guys.

I say that the experience of a trip goes SO FAR beyond the human language that you would be a god damn FOOL to argue that it could be properly expressed using the english language.

He says that no matter how abstract or intagible that it is always POSSIBLE to convey these meanings and ideas using the correct terms.

I know its impossible to truly convey this to him for the same reasons as its impossible to convey the trip to him but he is being a fool (within reason)




The reason why you can't express the experience of a trip with language is that language was created to describe the things, events, and experiences of normal life.  Altering one's brain chemistry in a psychedelic session can't be expressed in words because, quite simply, the proto-languages that provide the foundation to what we speak today have no words for the process.  For example, the average Roman citizen was highly unlikely to undergo a psychedelic experience, and yet was quite likely to drink water.  Thus, Latin incorporated a word for drinking water and not one for the complex mental states involved in tripping.  It's not because the experience of the trip goes "so far beyond human language" so as to be literally incomprehensible with words, it's just that we don't have the words yet.  If we wanted tripping to be encapsulated in words, it's up to the psychonauts to formulate a new terminology.  (Which, ironically, has already happened in a vague sort of way with the lingo of "tripping," getting "high", and "ego death.")

The whole point of words is to be able to communicate something--be it an event, an object, or a mental experience.  "I am angry," "I am sad," or even "I am thinking" all communicate subjective mental processes that vary from individual to individual, and yet find common ground in our words.  To say that somehow the subjective experience of an individual whose neurons are firing in a different pattern due to an ingested molecule of psilocybin is utterly IMPOSSIBLE to communicate through language lends something undeservedly mystical to the whole process.  We might not be able to talk about the psychedelic experience using languages founded on normal ways of life, but we can certainly create our own words to talk about and correspond our individual, subjective experiences.


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OfflinePlatinum
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Re: Properly articulating what it is to trip [Re: deCypher]
    #8644851 - 07/16/08 10:10 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

very well said. i completely agree. i couldnt have said it better myself. thats an interesting way to look at it, it makes a lot of sense. we just dont have the words to describe the experience, and it is definitely up to people like us to make such words. we should start!


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Offlinefazdazzle
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Re: Properly articulating what it is to trip [Re: TheHauntingSoul]
    #8645183 - 07/16/08 11:21 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

It seems to me like the difficulty in describing psychedelic experiences comes from the huge emotional aspect. How many ways do we describe emotions in everyday experiences? How many ways has love been described?

The ability of two people to come to an understanding requires the second party to be able to relate to the first person's description through something they've already experienced. Before psychedelics I don't think I had felt some of the things that I felt. My first experience showed me a feeling of pure peace, which I still marvel at and am incapable of describing.

What I usually tell people is colors get brighter, patterns that suggest movement start to move, objects gain a "personality" or leave an emotional imprint on you. For mental aspects, you have "Eureka!" moments one after another (watching them unfold and everything), connections are made in your personal life and all life. If you are having a joyful experience you can usually look at your life in a better light making you want to change. Emotionally you feel appreciative of all life, a strong euphoria comes over you....etc at this point I just usually say, "well, I basically consider tripping "gettin down with the divine.""


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OfflineOrbital_Saucer
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Re: Properly articulating what it is to trip [Re: Platinum]
    #8645361 - 07/17/08 12:16 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Platinum said:
we dont have the words to describe the experience, and it is definitely up to people like us to make such words.




Not so fast now!

To say that the only reason we are unable to accurately describe the P.E. is our lack of words due to the unconventional nature of the experience, would not be seeing the problem from all angles.

Think back to your last trip. Did you have normal conversations with whoever you were with? Probably not.

If you were to attempt to describe in detail some field of interest you were very passionate about to an individual who was ignorant of the subject, could you do it? Could you use language to describe everyday objects, concepts, etc? Not without much concentration.

The fact is that on hefty doses of psychedelics, our symbolic communication is much more ineffective.

Psychedelics have been around for a long time now. You don't honestly believe that if it were feasible to describe in detail what it is to "trip", someone wouldn't have done it by now?

Seriously, language is ever changing. Take surfing for example. This was a little known following for quite some time, yet early in the invention of the sport, jargon emerged describing all sorts of events (shapes of waves, techniques of riding) that English (or any other language) had not yet been able to describe.

Jargon is natural, yet it has not evolved with the P.E. Why is this? Because it cannot, and will not. :shrug:


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Properly articulating what it is to trip [Re: Orbital_Saucer]
    #8646451 - 07/17/08 10:43 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Orbital_Saucer said:
Psychedelics have been around for a long time now. You don't honestly believe that if it were feasible to describe in detail what it is to "trip", someone wouldn't have done it by now?




And yet Erowid is absolutely brimming with trip reports that do this exact thing.

Quote:

Seriously, language is ever changing. Take surfing for example. This was a little known following for quite some time, yet early in the invention of the sport, jargon emerged describing all sorts of events (shapes of waves, techniques of riding) that English (or any other language) had not yet been able to describe.

Jargon is natural, yet it has not evolved with the P.E. Why is this? Because it cannot, and will not. :shrug:




But yet we use words like getting high, coming up, frying, tripping, peaking, plateau, ego death, dissolution into the cosmos, synesthesia, levels 1-5, CEVs, OEVs, bad trip, tracers, dissociation, rolling, etc... all words that have evolved with the psychedelic experience.  You might also be interested in the following post of more psychedelic jargon: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/3699202, where it's clear that it is quite possible to capture the experience in language, even if it is language of our own invention.


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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: Properly articulating what it is to trip [Re: TheHauntingSoul]
    #8646464 - 07/17/08 10:46 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

TheHauntingSoul said:

I say that the experience of a trip goes SO FAR beyond the human language that you would be a god damn FOOL to argue that it could be properly expressed using the english language.




I think that a trip goes just as far beyond language as does ANY other experience, yet we still try describing experiences to each other using language, because that is the function of language.  Sure, language won't perfectly translate what it is like to trip, but it's not like it's an entirely futile exercise.

I think the problem is that most people suck balls at writing and get caught up in wanting to use mystical language and vague terminology that obscures the experience.  Go and read a bunch of trip reports on Erowid.  It's not that language doesn't get the ideas across from the tripper to the reader: it's that most trip reports are written like shit.

I really think it is pretentious to try saying that the psychedelic experience goes so far beyond language that it can't be described with language.  I can only accept this on the grounds that it is just as indescribable as any other daily experience, yet we still read the novels that others have written and enjoy the beauty of the written word.  There is nothing *inherently* more transcendent over language about the psychedelic experience than any experience (the taste of sugar; the look of a beautiful sunset).  You are not the only beholders of beautiful and transcendent experiences that might be difficult to convey with words. 

If you think that these experiences are so magically transcendent, then instead of dosing your friend, why not *CHALLENGE YOURSELF* and try communicating these experiences with language.  Take on the role of the poet, writer, or singer and give it a shot, instead of being such a pretentious fuck by coming here and having everyone else agree with you on what a moron your friend is (I mean seriously, are you really surprised that this crowd completely agreed with you?  Did you genuinely expect even one voice of skepticism who might have agreed with your friend?  Or did you come here just to get an intellectual pat on the back for fighting the good ideological fight of maintaining that the psychedelic experience is special and beyond words).

Think for your fucking self for once.  And don't dose your friend.  That's just stupid.  You're going to "force" "enlightenment" on him?  You people are fucked in the head.  You go on and on about enlightenment and the beauty of experience, but then you'd violate another person.


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InvisibleShad0w
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Re: Properly articulating what it is to trip [Re: deCypher]
    #8646477 - 07/17/08 10:49 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

If you were to attempt to describe in detail some field of interest you were very passionate about to an individual who was ignorant of the subject, could you do it? Could you use language to describe everyday objects, concepts, etc? Not without much concentration.





this part i believe is true. "getting high" is language that is related to the drug experience.... true. But in no way is it understandable in a realistic way to someone who hasnt done it.

I am not into sports....... so when people start talking about RBIs and double overtime, they get real excited.... and I just dont get it. * glazes over and pretends to be interested *


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InvisibleApollyphelion
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Re: Properly articulating what it is to trip [Re: TheHauntingSoul]
    #8646479 - 07/17/08 10:50 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I try to have decisive correlation between events
as a statue I can admire, work on or smash.


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OfflinePlatinum
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Re: Properly articulating what it is to trip [Re: Plasmid]
    #8646507 - 07/17/08 10:58 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

that thread is awesome. We should bring that back from the dead. But yeah... what if there was a term like "booglemanged" which was associated with some asset of tripping. If everyone who tripped knew the term, everyone would completely 100% know what that meant if they read it. Of course... to non-trippers they would never understand, but thats a way to put it into language. Specific experiences may vary, but there is some basis to many things trippers experience... like reading that thread. the "rerun" where its like "we should go smoke a blunt... but we dont have a dutch.... we should go get a dutch... yeah but i need my shoes... where are youre shoes... i dont know but we should smoke a blunt... but we dont have a dutch..." - all trippers know that...


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InvisibleShad0w
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Re: Properly articulating what it is to trip [Re: Plasmid]
    #8646521 - 07/17/08 11:01 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Plasmid said:
I think the problem is that most people suck balls at writing and get caught up in wanting to use mystical language and vague terminology that obscures the experience.




lol, very likely, granted there are really good trips reports out there, but still, I think it isnt really REALLY understood unless someone has experienced it before, "I felt like my mind was connected to the universe" <---- a str8 person can IMAGINE what it "means" but wont understand the experience until they feel it themselves.

Words only ever go so far in relating any sort of experience, you can give someone tips on what to expect, but not accuratly give them an UNDERSTANDING of the experience thru language.

This is all based on my personal observation of 90% of a trip is non-verbal.

anywayz....... I am sure we could all come up with a phrase or two that would describe a certain aspect of it.

like :

" I felt like alien beings had taken over my mind "

" I saw my cat turn into the devil "

" It was like I was connected to nature , a part of it! "

" It is like looking into a mirror without your make-up on. "

I like redgreenvines description a lot :

" I have been articulating the psychedelic experience in terms of
moments of sensation and memory that layer over eachother due to slower fading.
the stacks of sensation and memory make the experience of time and body less material yet richer; while making space seem bigger or more dimensional.

longer resonance does explain the most of it,
but a person may not have the requisite imagination to understand the description as it applies to real life experience. "


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