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OfflineSethwick
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%22Let's Grow Mushrooms!%22 BRF Tek Terrarium Questions
    #8644428 - 07/16/08 08:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I've tried searching through the forums and haven't found this question asked before, so I'm sorry if it's a common one.

I've read several guides (MMGG, the Fungifun PF Tek for simple minds, a few more on here) and watched the Let's Grow Mushrooms! PF Tek videos on youtube, and, while there is a lot of overlap in the guides, it seems the Let's Grow Mushrooms! version of the PF Tek is easiest to follow. I have several questions before I get started, some on inoculation but most on the terrarium.

1. Could I incorporate the %22PF Tek for Simple Minds%22 aluminum foil method without hurting anything? That is, covering the jars with two layers of foil, the outer one lose, before boiling/PCing, and then removing the upper layer to inoculate, puncturing the lower level with the needle, before replacing the upper layer and rolling up the sides of the foil. Reading the forums, I notice that taping can cause problems, will the second, unpunctured layer of foil cause similar problems?

2. For the terrarium, if I cover it with holes as advised, will I still have to fan it out daily to clear out CO2? This isn't mentioned in the video, does the large number of holes take care of that problem on its own?

3. What size should the holes be so that they will allow proper air exchange, but won't let the perlite fall out everywhere?

4. It seems like, with holes in the bottom and a filling of damp perlite, there will be some degree of water leakage. Am I underestimating the water retaining power of perlite, or does this happen? If so, is it okay to put the terrarium on a towel, or does that block the holes on the bottom too much?

5. When checking the perlite to see if it needs to be spritzed with water, what exactly am I looking for? Is it okay so long as it is a little damp, and I only should spray if it is bone dry, or should I generally keep it really moist to the touch?

Thank you.

PS: Just remembered one more thing. I don't have a PC, but I may be able to borrow one. I assume putting the jars through the standard, 1 hour PCing instead of the 90 minute boil presented in the videos wouldn't make much of a difference. Am I right?

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Offlinerobanero
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Re: "Let's Grow Mushrooms!" BRF Tek Terrarium Questions [Re: Sethwick]
    #8644577 - 07/16/08 09:06 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Welcome to The Shroomery! The foil Is to keep moisture from getting into the jar during the sterilization process. After they cool take the foil off. The dry verm layer acts as your contam barrier. And yes the foil can cause problems.
Fanning just helps get more fresh air, which is a pinning trigger along with the proper lighting.
I use 1/8 in holes. It keeps the humidity up compaired to bigger holes.
When you prepair the perlite put it in a stainer soak it and let it drain until no water runs out when you shake it around. Throw it into the shotgun and repeat until you have about 5 in. or so. I put mine on a trash bag and have very little moisture if I pick it up.
You should mist it as needed. Which is usually a few times a day. The cake is what you are looking at to tell you when to mist.
I have had better results steaming rather than PCing. The cakes just come out nicer.
Happy growing.


--------------------

310 open cap Hawaiians grown a 1 pint WBSF cake.

SPAWN RATIO CALCULATOR


My Little Hawaiians

Spawn Bag Tek

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OfflinePowerOfTheCoir
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Re: "Let's Grow Mushrooms!" BRF Tek Terrarium Questions [Re: Sethwick]
    #8645527 - 07/17/08 01:19 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sethwick said:
I've read several guides (MMGG, the Fungifun PF Tek for simple minds, a few more on here) and watched the Let's Grow Mushrooms! PF Tek videos on youtube, and, while there is a lot of overlap in the guides, it seems the Let's Grow Mushrooms! version of the PF Tek is easiest to follow. I have several questions before I get started, some on inoculation but most on the terrarium.




I like you already! It's good to see that you sought out and read a variety of sources before trying to put together a plan. You'd be surprised how many new people confuse the "search" button with the "post" button.

In my opinion, when you see differences between those above guides (sometimes they outright conflict with eachother), you should assume the position of the Let's Grow Mushrooms videos to be correct. I'm not saying that it should be blindly followed or that it is the final stage in the evolution of mushroom growing, but it does seen to reflect the best modern techniques. Many of the alternative positions are based on faulty science (you only need a little light and spectrum doesn't matter = wrong) or have been surpassed by all-around better innovations (Complicated humidification schemes for small tubs all come from the time before someone tried using a butt-load of wet perlite). Also, when you get really stumped by the conflict between two guides, try a search on the board for that topic. Generally, people on the board will advocate the most accepted position out of all commonly known ones while some of those teks will preserve the wisdom of the late 90's for decades.

(BTW - I ramble a lot. You might notice this if you stick around. :wink: I blame Adderall.)

Quote:


1. Could I incorporate the "PF Tek for Simple Minds" aluminum foil method without hurting anything? That is, covering the jars with two layers of foil, the outer one lose, before boiling/PCing, and then removing the upper layer to inoculate, puncturing the lower level with the needle, before replacing the upper layer and rolling up the sides of the foil. Reading the forums, I notice that taping can cause problems, will the second, unpunctured layer of foil cause similar problems?




The foil method in that tek only makes sense if you are using glasses instead of jars or have some other reason not to use a real lid. The Simple Minds tek just didn't make much mention of using the real lid and used foil for the pics. It leaves people with the impression that you ALWAYS use foil. You don't - it's just an acceptable substitute for a real lid.

If you are using jars, just poke 4 holes in the lid near the edges (but accessible with the ring on) before you sterilize. Cover the lid/ring with a piece of foil while sterilizing and remove it right before you inject. After you inject through the holes in the lid, the jar is done and safe to sit on a dark cabinet shelf until it's done colonizing. Just leave the holes bare and exposed to the world. No tape, no foil over anything after injection. It's that layer of dry vermiculite that protects you from contamination. Anything else you put over it will just interfere with airflow.

Quote:

2. For the terrarium, if I cover it with holes as advised, will I still have to fan it out daily to clear out CO2? This isn't mentioned in the video, does the large number of holes take care of that problem on its own?




If you have tons of holes, on all 6 sides like in the video, you will not NEED to fan. You will still benefit from it though. Getting rid of stale air helps keep contaminants from getting comfortable and supplements the FAE (fresh air exchange) provided by the holes. Try to fan it at least before you leave in the morning and when you get back in the evening.

Quote:

3. What size should the holes be so that they will allow proper air exchange, but won't let the perlite fall out everywhere?




Roger Rabbit (the person who made that video) recommends 1/4". He discusses this on his website where he has a writen explanation about how that terrarium works. http://www.mushroomvideos.com/Terrarium-Tek

Quote:


4. It seems like, with holes in the bottom and a filling of damp perlite, there will be some degree of water leakage. Am I underestimating the water retaining power of perlite, or does this happen? If so, is it okay to put the terrarium on a towel, or does that block the holes on the bottom too much?




The old way of using was to leave a layer of water at the bottom of the perlite which would get wicked up by the perlite above water level. We now know that if you just get perlite real wet and then drain it until drip-free, the remaining moisture will be enough to let the perlite do its humidification job for months. Since there should be no standing water, you won't have to worry about drips.

You are right to think that a towel would interfere with the airflow. The bottom of the tub must be elevated so that there is free air beneath it. The holes on the bottom are probably the most important to the design of that tub. If you're really worried about drips, elevate the tub over a drip pan or towel.

Quote:

5. When checking the perlite to see if it needs to be spritzed with water, what exactly am I looking for? Is it okay so long as it is a little damp, and I only should spray if it is bone dry, or should I generally keep it really moist to the touch?




The misting is for the cakes, not the perlite. The perlite will keep its moisture longer than the life-span of your cakes. The misting will rehydrate the vermiculite on the outside of your cakes (dunk and roll like in the video) and the cakes will "drink" through that. Just be sure to mist indirectly, meaning point the mister over the cakes and let the mist float down onto the cakes. Fan after misting so that the cakes don't have a persistent layer of wetness which can suffocate developing fruits.

Quote:


Thank you.




You're welcome!

Quote:

PS: Just remembered one more thing. I don't have a PC, but I may be able to borrow one. I assume putting the jars through the standard, 1 hour PCing instead of the 90 minute boil presented in the videos wouldn't make much of a difference. Am I right?




PCing would be a bit better, both to be sure they're totally sterile and because a properly used PC is less likely to change the moisture content of your cakes, but both methods if properly done are very reliable for brf cakes.


--------------------
Check out my first ever TEK!
Shroom capsules with the Cap-M-Quik (pics)

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: "Let's Grow Mushrooms!" BRF Tek Terrarium Questions [Re: PowerOfTheCoir]
    #8645697 - 07/17/08 03:51 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

It looks like your questions have been answered, but I just wanted to point out that the quality of the brf tek videos on my own website are much higher than the highly compressed youtube versions.  They're the same content, just higher quality. BRF Tek page


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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OfflineSethwick
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Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 27
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: "Let's Grow Mushrooms!" BRF Tek Terrarium Questions [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8645723 - 07/17/08 04:27 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Thank you robanero and PoweroftheCoir. That mostly clears things up. So I will need to spray over the cakes a few times daily? Like one or twice, or more like four times.

And thank you RogerRabbit for your great videos! I planned on watching them again after I got syringes and prepared to start things "for real" and I'll watch the high res ones this time.

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OfflinePowerOfTheCoir
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Re: "Let's Grow Mushrooms!" BRF Tek Terrarium Questions [Re: Sethwick]
    #8645839 - 07/17/08 06:19 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

You'll probably be best misting the cakes 1-2 times daily. Don't soak them, they do need to breathe. If you are dunking right after birth and after every flush, then you won't need the misting to majorly rehydrate the cakes. You're just using the misting to replace the small amount of water that has evaporated off during the day (not much because the perlite keeps it very humid in there).

Speaking of dunking - be sure to dunk. It's in the video and several teks, so you're already familiar with what it involves. Don't miss out on the benefits - it's easily the safest, simplest, and most dramatic way to improve the performance of brf cakes.


--------------------
Check out my first ever TEK!
Shroom capsules with the Cap-M-Quik (pics)

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Offlinechiz
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Registered: 07/17/08
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Re: "Let's Grow Mushrooms!" BRF Tek Terrarium Questions [Re: PowerOfTheCoir]
    #8645856 - 07/17/08 06:31 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

First off I just want to say thanks to RR for his excellent video series, they were so clearly and concisely done, I have no worries about screwing anything up as long as I follow his instructions, so a big thanks to you RR.

I was browsing another mushroom forum, Mycotopia and a guy cased a BRF cake half with vermiculite and half with coir, and the coir side had a bunch of mushrooms while the verm side had none.  I figured that maybe the mushrooms pinned and fruited faster and better...?

So my real question is this, is Vermiculite the absolute best to use when you dunk and roll your BRF cakes or have people here found better casings for their cakes?  How about verm and coir, or coir and h-poo, etc etc.  OR should I just stick with Vermiculite? 


btw, just got my b+ syringe yesterday and inoculated a pint jar with 4% organic honey and a cc of the b+ and will be doing BRF cakes as per RR's video, can't wait :grin:

edit; to be clear I am going to use that LC for a mycobag and casing later on and using the other 9 cc's of the b+ for some brf cakes.

Edited by chiz (07/17/08 06:37 AM)

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OfflinePowerOfTheCoir
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Re: "Let's Grow Mushrooms!" BRF Tek Terrarium Questions [Re: chiz]
    #8645923 - 07/17/08 07:07 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I was browsing another mushroom forum, Mycotopia and a guy cased a BRF cake half with vermiculite and half with coir, and the coir side had a bunch of mushrooms while the verm side had none.  I figured that maybe the mushrooms pinned and fruited faster and better...?

So my real question is this, is Vermiculite the absolute best to use when you dunk and roll your BRF cakes or have people here found better casings for their cakes?  How about verm and coir, or coir and h-poo, etc etc.  OR should I just stick with Vermiculite?




I don't think we'll ever know what the absolute best for anything in this hobby is. We're constantly finding new ways to do things, new substrates that cubes love, and re-evaluating old assumptions. A few years ago, most people considered coir to be non-nutritious.

Now is coir better than verm for a brf cake? Dunno, but if you roll some of your cakes in one and some in the other, you'd get a heck of alot of interest on this board in your first grow pics. Theoretically shoiuld coir be better? I'm just applying what I know here, I've never done this experiment myself, but I think that rolling in coir and rolling in vermiculite would have two totally different purposes.

When we roll a cake in vermiculite, we are creating a layer on inert material that will only partially colonize and serve as a water reservoir. The verm layer will absorb water from misting and then the cake will absorb some and some more will evaporate, causing a micro-zone of higher humidity right at the pinning surface. Also, the wet verm will prevent the cake from losing it's precious water to evaporation. This is all possible since verm is inorganic and nutritionally useless, thus the cake doesn't try to completely colonize over it.

Coir is very nutritious. When you roll in it, the cake will completely colonize the coir layer and the coir will just become part of the substrate (the cake). It will not serve as an external collector for moisture from misting. It may however have some other benefit by creating a layer of high growth right at the surface right before pinning.

I'd be a little cautious about using the half/half cake experiment as a source of info for any other type of grow. If the verm side truly had NO growth, then we know that something weird happened. Either the coir caused a drop in production on the verm side, or something else stopped production on that side. Verm works - we know it reliably supports fruit growth. I'd like to see a group of cakes with half 100% coir rolled and half 100% verm rolled. Those results would be generalizable.

One caution about using coir. Coir is nutritious and thus is vulnerable to contamination. If you use it, you do assume a certain level of risk. Also, many people roll again after post-flush dunks. I would be careful doing this with coir. The cakes are already in fruiting mode and will show little interest in colonizing more material. Uncolonized verm is inert so it just sits there, uncolonized coir will grow other things.


--------------------
Check out my first ever TEK!
Shroom capsules with the Cap-M-Quik (pics)

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Offlinerobanero
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Re: "Let's Grow Mushrooms!" BRF Tek Terrarium Questions [Re: PowerOfTheCoir]
    #8646143 - 07/17/08 09:01 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

No prob Seth thats what everybody should be here for. Learning, helping, and learning some more. Rogers DVD is well worth the meager investment for all the knowledge thats on it. I think every new grower should buy it.


--------------------

310 open cap Hawaiians grown a 1 pint WBSF cake.

SPAWN RATIO CALCULATOR


My Little Hawaiians

Spawn Bag Tek

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