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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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What goes on here.
#8636898 - 07/15/08 08:42 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm going to quote Veritas here. IMO she has put her finger exactly on something important.
Insisting that one's subjective experience of the world is the TRUTH, and that others simply "can't" see it, is unreasonable. One may assert that they have utilized their subjective, internal experience of an unverifiable aspect of existence to formulate a "best guess," but going further is overstepping.
This really seems self evident to me. Show me how I'm wrong.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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backfromthedead
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Re: What goes on here. [Re: Icelander]
#8636912 - 07/15/08 08:45 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Overstepping is like the new Guru shuffle.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
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Post deleted by LunarEclipseReason for deletion: uhhuh
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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fireworks_god
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said: In response to Poster: backfromthedead Subject: Re: What goes on here.
It'd be more efficient to simply click the "Quote" tab at the top of his post.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: What goes on here. [Re: Icelander]
#8637753 - 07/15/08 01:01 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I'm going to quote Veritas here. IMO she has put her finger exactly on something important.
Insisting that one's subjective experience of the world is the TRUTH, and that others simply "can't" see it, is unreasonable. One may assert that they have utilized their subjective, internal experience of an unverifiable aspect of existence to formulate a "best guess," but going further is overstepping.
This really seems self evident to me. Show me how I'm wrong.
Define "subjective experience" and use an example.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
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Re: What goes on here. [Re: Icelander]
#8637946 - 07/15/08 01:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Insisting that one's subjective experience of the world is the TRUTH, and that others simply "can't" see it, is unreasonable. One may assert that they have utilized their subjective, internal experience of an unverifiable aspect of existence to formulate a "best guess," but going further is overstepping.
This really seems self evident to me. Show me how I'm wrong.
Man, this type of tactic is driving me up the wall.
At least I have the stronger argument when other posters start to say things like:
"I know the universal truth... but I can't explain it. You must believe in order to see it."
"Your skeptical mindset won't allow you to understand."
"Enlightened people only present themselves to people who believe."
"The only reason you won't believe in UFO's/WTC/Faked Moon Landing is because you are a brainwashed sheep."
The funny/ironic thing is, these hippies... the ones who use such heavy handed debate tactics, FAR TOO OFTEN, turn to personalisms or flames when their universal 'truths' are debunked.
Once someone uses a bullshit statement to make their point, ad-hominem or straw-man arguments are not far behind. Then the flames come. Then the crying.
Spend enough time on these boards and you can almost predict who will snap and when. Once a poster starts making bullshit claims about universal truths... it seems it is only a matter of time.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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backfromthedead
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Re: What goes on here. [Re: Rose]
#8638042 - 07/15/08 01:56 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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when their universal 'truths' are debunked.
The notion that certain posters cannot produce swaying arguments does not make irrelevant the simple Truths being alluded to on these boards, imo.
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: What goes on here. [Re: Rose]
#8638050 - 07/15/08 01:58 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Good, I'll keep on the lookout.
While we're waiting for Ice to give a definition, perhaps you can give an example of a universal truth.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Quote:
Senor_Hongos said:
Quote:
Icelander said: I'm going to quote Veritas here. IMO she has put her finger exactly on something important.
Insisting that one's subjective experience of the world is the TRUTH, and that others simply "can't" see it, is unreasonable. One may assert that they have utilized their subjective, internal experience of an unverifiable aspect of existence to formulate a "best guess," but going further is overstepping.
This really seems self evident to me. Show me how I'm wrong.
Define "subjective experience" and use an example.
I take some shrooms and I'm hanging with my friends. I think I see and feel God in front of us but they don't see or feel anything like that. I now claim that for sure there is a God.
This to me is subjective.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Droz
Love of Life
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Objective reality through the use of your most inspirational sense, through the eyes.
Do we even see the same? Maybe smells are different, touch... you gotta see the middle point that your objective reality is indirectly shaped by your inner reality, subjectivity.
-------------------- Evolution of Time.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
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Quote:
Senor_Hongos said: While we're waiting for Ice to give a definition, perhaps you can give an example of a universal truth.
I think Ice is talking about statements that are easily debunked... because the poster stated something with certainty. Like it ALWAYS happens this way.
Here are some "Universal truths" that tend to be thrown around a lot in here... despite the evidence.
"I know for a fact, we are all one."
"I talk to multidimentional beings all the time."
"I know I am an enlightened being."
"I have no ego."
"I love everybody and everything equally."
"There are no facts. So don't use logic aginst me."
"Don't debate this issue because it is true no matter what you may think.
"Words have no meaning."
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Quote:
backfromthedead said: when their universal 'truths' are debunked.
The notion that certain posters cannot produce swaying arguments does not make irrelevant the simple Truths being alluded to on these boards, imo.
There is no way to know if these "simple truths" are true or not. It's an opinion without evidence that can be demonstrated. So the likelyhood that it's true could be slim IMO.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Bridgeburner
Not spiritual at all.
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Re: What goes on here. [Re: Icelander]
#8638132 - 07/15/08 02:18 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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but you can also do a schrodingers cat here: post your truth and never read this thread again. that's the only to post in P&S!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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if only:D
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: What goes on here. [Re: Icelander]
#8638176 - 07/15/08 02:30 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I take some shrooms and I'm hanging with my friends. I think I see and feel God in front of us but they don't see or feel anything like that. I now claim that for sure there is a God.
This to me is subjective.
Yes, I would call that subjective too, perhaps even call it Panaeolus subbjective. I would also call it a hallucination. However, internal states, like a toothache or back pain, while being truly subjective, can be verified empirically. Anything that is perceptual can be discussed between people, making it objective. Even intelligible objects of thought can be objective, e.g. liberty or injustice.
Hallucinations are always subjective. Philosophical topics, however, while being mental constructs, are also intelligible objects of thought. Therefore, they are objective. They may be completely incorrect in their conclusions, e.g. crop circles and how they form. Nevertheless, they are objective. Similarly, God as an intelligible object of thought can be discussed philosophically. Making the conclusions of those conversations objective as well. Relying on some "inner feeling" or hallucination for evidence is entirely different.
Thanks for the explanation.
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: What goes on here. [Re: Rose]
#8638192 - 07/15/08 02:32 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said:
Quote:
Senor_Hongos said: While we're waiting for Ice to give a definition, perhaps you can give an example of a universal truth.
I think Ice is talking about statements that are easily debunked... because the poster stated something with certainty. Like it ALWAYS happens this way.
Here are some "Universal truths" that tend to be thrown around a lot in here... despite the evidence.
"I know for a fact, we are all one."
"I talk to multidimentional beings all the time."
"I know I am an enlightened being."
"I have no ego."
"I love everybody and everything equally."
"There are no facts. So don't use logic aginst me."
"Don't debate this issue because it is true no matter what you may think.
"Words have no meaning."
Priceless!
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backfromthedead
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Re: What goes on here. [Re: Icelander]
#8638264 - 07/15/08 02:50 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
backfromthedead said: when their universal 'truths' are debunked.
The notion that certain posters cannot produce swaying arguments does not make irrelevant the simple Truths being alluded to on these boards, imo.
There is no way to know if these "simple truths" are true or not. It's an opinion without evidence that can be demonstrated. So the likelyhood that it's true could be slim IMO.
Its just that people assume that its all garbage... For every 100 circular dreamy ideas that all sound the same is maybe .5 flashes of real insight. I mean... I get tossed in with the REAL LOONS because people think that what I am talking about is some random shit to be 'debunked.' There is a considerable body of research and literature to consult... Of which I've only been constantly intimidated by. My own research and the findings of modern experimentation... Heavens...!! Science even says, ahem, Mysticism/Mystical Experience...? Yes. Positive lasting effect...?? Yes. Experiences of God(let the individual define)...?? Yes. Has been around probably since the beginning...?? Yes. Religion/Spirituality seems primary action...?? Mostly in the right set/setting. WHACKED THE FUCK OUT...?? YES.(too)
I see where the ideas come from. The interesting thing to me is that everyone is working toward a desirable mental state... No?? Their words are their routes in. I admire what works for others in its simplicity. I also know that more questions come with every day and feeble answers will buckle under the weight of 'Reality.' Perhaps, the 'universal truths' are an attempt at approaching that 'knowing.' For a moment, or longer, you do know. And you try to convey it in words. You craft words to bring you and others up (or down...) into your 'state.' If another's words work for them... They are a consideration of mine. Because they work. I realize that if our minds are not at the same stages, perhaps simpler answers will not suffice.
Less instruction. Less preaching. More experience par excellence por mi extended famillia. That's all I can hope. A round of crazy ideas for everyone. Nevermind Truth, dammit. We will come to that. Enlightenment too, probably. Now everybody... "Take Eat..." And if I had enough pockets shit we'd be in luck.
I say Bulk Grows into a fountain and everybody grabs a party cup 2012 style.
And... Dem Livin Waters...?? Fuckin THE Universal Truth.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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I think it is incorrect to state that philosophical ideas are objective. Which definition would you say applies:
1. Of or having to do with a material object. 2. Having actual existence or reality. 3. a. Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices: an objective critic. b. Based on observable phenomena; presented factually: an objective appraisal.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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I don't assume it's all bs. I withhold judgment until I have some evidence or personal experience. Then I still usually say, IMO.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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backfromthedead
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Re: What goes on here. [Re: Icelander]
#8638457 - 07/15/08 03:26 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I don't assume it's all bs. I withhold judgment until I have some evidence or personal experience. Then I still usually say, IMO.
I would refer you to the aforementioned(in another thread)... Fourth Way. I'm sure there is a Sandoz stockpile of sorts somewhere.
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