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obscured
Bloodletting


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 206
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Re: So how many people exercised their rights to refuse searches? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
#8470344 - 06/01/08 09:16 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Speaking of this entire subject, I was watching "Cops" today. They pulled a guy over for running a red light and asked him to step out of the vehicle. The guy said "I do not consent to a search." The cop told him "I'm going to pat you down, for my own safety." The cop patted him down (supposedly for weapons) and pulls out 15 g of coke.
The cop arrested the man and tossed him in the back of the police cruiser.
How could this be viewed?
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: So how many people exercised their rights to refuse searches? [Re: obscured]
#8470412 - 06/01/08 09:39 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well the issue is whether the officer will be certain at the suppression hearing that he had cause (I'm not sure what the standard is or whether it even has been decided) to believe that what he felt was illegal.
He knew it wasn't a weapon, but he doesn't have to ignore it if he knows its illegal.
So will he lie and say he knew a small irregular was illegal when asked in court?
You betcha.
The law is that the search is legal if the officer has reasonable suspicion to believe the guy may have weapons/be dangerous. The search is only for weapons. Can't search for anything else. But if he finds something else he doesn't have to ignore it. To take the thing out of the pocket he has to either have consent or have cause to believe its illegal.
And the judge has to believe him, but the judge will believe him.
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obscured
Bloodletting


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 206
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Re: So how many people exercised their rights to refuse searches? [Re: johnm214]
#8470460 - 06/01/08 09:54 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I thought the law was that for a pat down for weapons, the cop cannot pull anything out that cannot be viewed as a weapon. "Well, your honor, I felt what felt like a sandwich bag, filled with around 15g of sand. He could have pulled that out, thrown it in my eyes and ran."
But, that's my state, others could be different.
Word to the wise, never, EVER keep anything in your pockets.
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: So how many people exercised their rights to refuse searches? [Re: obscured]
#8470556 - 06/01/08 10:31 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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yeah, this is US constitutional minimums. States can have more protections if they like, but most states don't often extend protections beyond the bare minimum in many places.
If teh cop said that, the evidence would be surpresed (sand)
If the cop said "Using my superior training and mind control techniques gained from 5 years walking the beat, I can reliably predict whether ill defined objects are drugs, and this was definatly drugs" The evidence could be constitutionally (under US const.) admitted.
Cop just has to have a justifiable basis for believing it to be illegal, read: made up soemthing in conlusion w/ prosecutor 5 min before supresion hearing in his office.
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AnotherDimension
Wanderer in the Land of the Lost


Registered: 06/14/04
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Re: So how many people exercised their rights to refuse searches? [Re: johnm214]
#8472328 - 06/01/08 08:17 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Consent isn't a magic word, its what the reasonable officer would have understood to be communicated.
The literal translation of Chemy's dialogue is a refusal to search.
So you mind if I search? No = I don't mind So you don't mind if I search? No = I don't not mind.= I do mind
But that wasn't the conversation.
Chemy said the conversation went like this: "What do you have in the car?" "Nothing." "So, you don't mind if I search, then?" "No."
This is easily construed as giving permission. In fact, as an unbiased observer from just a transcript I would assume that permission was given. Only given the context of this forum do I know he meant to deny consent.
Quote:
To conclude otherwise is to conclude that "so you don't mind" is eqiuvalent to "do you mind?" which isn't born out by the grammer
I know what you are getting at, and I agree the "No" could be taken either way. But, given the option the police will always choose the way that gives them what they want.
Quote:
If you say no and the officer uses his convoluted presumptive question, instead of asking 'may I search' he presume you consent and asks 'you don't mind if I search', to begin to search, you simply say "I didn't give you permission, I refuse" and you've not consented.
Two things here. First, in all the cop interactions I have witnessed in person and on TV, the questions are never straightforward like that. They are not polite and reasonable. They are trained to ask the questions in a misleading manner.
Second, "I didn't give you permission, I refuse." is a lot more than just saying "No" and I agree it would be a good clarification if the need arose.
Quote:
You must affirmatively refuse.
Yes. Silence is legally viewed as consent/agreement.
-------------------- Another Dimension --------------------------- "Come, and trip it as ye go, On the light fantastick toe."
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: So how many people exercised their rights to refuse searches? [Re: AnotherDimension]
#8472877 - 06/01/08 10:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
AnotherDimension said: "So, you don't mind if I search, then?" "No."
'no' is not an articulate answer, always regardless of how the question is asked answer with "I do not consent to a search"
articulation is key, it's what you'll hear a lot of regarding police encounters, even from the police
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AnotherDimension
Wanderer in the Land of the Lost


Registered: 06/14/04
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Loc: USA
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Re: So how many people exercised their rights to refuse searches? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#8473189 - 06/01/08 11:55 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
AnotherDimension said: "So, you don't mind if I search, then?" "No."
'no' is not an articulate answer, always regardless of how the question is asked answer with "I do not consent to a search"
articulation is key, it's what you'll hear a lot of regarding police encounters, even from the police
Well, I didn't say that directly, obviously I was quoting the hypothetical situation Chemy had proposed.
But, I totally agree with what you say, specific declaration of your intention is of key importance in a situation such as Chemy has proposed. State your right politely, do not stammer, and do not say more than necessary. Do not act aggressively or in a challenging manner.
-------------------- Another Dimension --------------------------- "Come, and trip it as ye go, On the light fantastick toe."
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Tri High
Whigro


Registered: 05/02/08
Posts: 11,769
Loc: Monaghan, Ireland
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Re: So how many people exercised their rights to refuse searches? [Re: AnotherDimension]
#8504737 - 06/09/08 06:59 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I said no to a cop searching my room after they had come into the house because they "had smelled marijuana"...
They arrested me for receipt of stolen property, got a search warrant and found my mooshes...
Haven't been contacted by the police trying to arrest me though, so thank goodness! I'll let people know what happens with that!
-------------------- you just need money to get laid - starfire_xes
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Chemy
Jesus is Lord

Registered: 10/05/07
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Loc: A Church
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Re: So how many people exercised their rights to refuse searches? [Re: Tri High]
#8534254 - 06/17/08 04:16 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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-------------------- Alcoholics Anonymous Narcotics Anonymous Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365. God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin. Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!
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derx
who run it



Registered: 05/29/03
Posts: 2,459
Loc: dx/dt
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Re: So how many people exercised their rights to refuse searches? [Re: Chemy]
#8625459 - 07/12/08 01:17 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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if the dog shows up while the officer is writing a citation and detects drugs, it is a legal search and seizure.
This is what saved my ass. I was detained on the side of the road for over a hour for a drug dog to show up and detect drugs before a search was even conducted.
My court is finally over and all of my charges were dropped. I'm still waiting the return of my automobile and cash.
-------------------- better living through chemistry OVERGROW the government!! it's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom, ok, thats what it is.
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Chemy
Jesus is Lord

Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 6,276
Loc: A Church
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Re: So how many people exercised their rights to refuse searches? [Re: derx]
#8625472 - 07/12/08 01:20 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
derx said: if the dog shows up while the officer is writing a citation and detects drugs, it is a legal search and seizure.
This is what saved my ass. I was detained on the side of the road for over a hour for a drug dog to show up and detect drugs before a search was even conducted.
My court is finally over and all of my charges were dropped. I'm still waiting the return of my automobile and cash.
Great job!
Nice to hear the citizen winning against unconstitutional search and seizure!
-------------------- Alcoholics Anonymous Narcotics Anonymous Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365. God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin. Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: So how many people exercised their rights to refuse searches? [Re: derx]
#8625698 - 07/12/08 02:28 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
derx said: if the dog shows up while the officer is writing a citation and detects drugs, it is a legal search and seizure.
This is what saved my ass. I was detained on the side of the road for over a hour for a drug dog to show up and detect drugs before a search was even conducted.
My court is finally over and all of my charges were dropped. I'm still waiting the return of my automobile and cash.
not necessarily. The dog has to show up after a reasonable stop for what you were stopped for.
So if you weren't stopped for anything breaking the law, and the guy just dicks around till the dog comes, doesn't even get to writing a citation, or hell starts when the dog gets there, its still unconstitutional.
Sucks about the automobile.
Why the fuck did they keep it so long?
That is going to be crazy expensive, unfortunately.
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Snoopapotamus
Fuck!
Registered: 07/12/08
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Re: So how many people exercised their rights to refuse searches? [Re: Chemy]
#8629634 - 07/13/08 03:04 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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I had the same experience when I was on acid in 1998.
They pulled my friends and I out of the car to search all of us because the left blinker didn't work. Finally, it was my turn. I said I was "using my 4th and 5th amendment rights." They said "we're just going to search you to make sure you don't have any weapons." I calmly stated "sir, I am not a violent person and I don't have any weapons." He stated "well... I'm just going to search you and make sure" I said " Sir, I am not a violent person, I don't have any weapons." He said "I am just going to make sure." He grabbed my arm. I did not resist. I said "Sir, I am not a violent person, I don't have any weapons. I am choosing to use my fourth and fifth amendment rights and if you choose to violate my rights I will take legal action against you and your employer" Then he twisted my arm hard as hell behind me. I repeated "I am not a violent person, I do not have any weapons, and you are hurting my arm." I was promptly blindsided from behind by his partner. They rolled me around for a few punches in the bushes. (Come to think of it now, I'm surprised I didn't piss myself I was so terrified.) I was handcuffed, searched(too bad they ruffed me up so much the pipe and weed fell out of my pocket and into the storm drain. Hah!), and put in the back of the car. They tormented my friends that were with me. When they came back to the car they gave me a ticket for resisting arrest. They then proceeded to ask me if I was okay and wanted a ride to the hospital. (I hate to think what would have happened had I let them take me somewhere.) They said "if a knife or gun or something would have fallen out of your pocket we could have pulled out our guns and started shooting everywhere. We could have shot one of your friends or something." They released me. I was pretty damn sober after that. I went home in shock. They fucked up my elbow. I was shaking from the torment. Assholes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry. I went to court. My name wasn't on the board. I asked the clerk what the deal was. She said to go to the DA's office. I went to the DA's office and they mysteriously didn't know anything about it even though I was holding the ticket right in front of their faces. Amazing! Looks like my resisting arrest ticket just magically disappeared.
These days I just drive really well. That was my first and only ticket so far. Knock on mycelium.
How's that for a first post?
Peace!!!!!!!
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