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OfflineLndrydusting
Forever new. . .
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Registered: 02/19/08
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Re: athiest soilder sues military. . . [Re: HoleSnype]
    #8630244 - 07/13/08 05:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

The whole Christians taking over the military kinda surprises me... Everyone I've ever known in the service has come out a hellion not a bible thumper.


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InvisibleFerris
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Registered: 03/12/06
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Re: athiest soilder sues military. . . [Re: HoleSnype]
    #8630366 - 07/13/08 05:53 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

What this all comes down to is that the people we are giving the guns to, that we are entrusting to support our way of life and uphold the constitution, need to OBEY THE FUCKING LAW.  It's as simple as that.  No more of this, "well, they're soldiers, let's cut em slack because they make up for it in other ways" crap.  Military is part of the "state" (who care's if it's not the same as a school :stars:), so yes, separation of church and state does apply, geez.


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InvisibleHoleSnype
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Registered: 04/27/06
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Re: athiest soilder sues military. . . [Re: Ferris]
    #8630437 - 07/13/08 06:11 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ferris said:
What this all comes down to is that the people we are giving the guns to, that we are entrusting to support our way of life and uphold the constitution, need to OBEY THE FUCKING LAW.  It's as simple as that.  No more of this, "well, they're soldiers, let's cut em slack because they make up for it in other ways" crap.  Military is part of the "state" (who care's if it's not the same as a school :stars:), so yes, separation of church and state does apply, geez.




That is easy for some civilian sitting on their arse to say.


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OfflineWornTraveler
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Registered: 06/15/08
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Re: athiest soilder sues military. . . [Re: downforpot]
    #8630453 - 07/13/08 06:14 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:
Quote:

WornTraveler said:
I seriously doubt that someone would not get promoted in the military because of his religion. There are a million reasons for people to *not* be put in a position where others' lives are in their hands.

And if the guy is just downright not a leader, well, not much you can do. Some people can inspire others to lay down on the train tracks, other people couldn't convince you to try a new restaurant out much less run through an open area with people shooting at ya.




So why the hell did the army get him a body guard? Why did the army discipline two officers for promoting a christian program during the 4th of July? Why are there over 8000 complaints from soldiers?





They probably gave him a bodyguard because, before he left, he bitched about not getting his promotion, his entire platoon started calling him a bitch-ass pussy, and he got scared and blew it out of proportion, so they gave him a bodyguard to look like they actually gave a fuck and get his complaining ass off their case. :grin:


My guess at least. Also, out of a force of millions of people, eight thousand is not a whole lot. You also have to consider that they didn't say exactly when these "complaints" were lodged. For all we know, that's starting from 2008 or 1778.


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InvisibleFerris
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Re: athiest soilder sues military. . . [Re: HoleSnype]
    #8630643 - 07/13/08 06:52 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

HoleSnype said:
That is easy for some civilian sitting on their arse to say.




I've seen war.  War on the streets.  What is it about seeing men shot and killed that makes one so special?


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Offlineheartofalion
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Registered: 06/01/07
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Re: athiest soilder sues military. . . [Re: Ferris]
    #8630732 - 07/13/08 07:16 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ferris said:
Quote:

HoleSnype said:
That is easy for some civilian sitting on their arse to say.




I've seen war.  War on the streets.  What is it about seeing men shot and killed that makes one so special?




War on the streets you are fighting for YOUR LIFE and YOUR PROPERTY....In Iraq you are sacrificing yourself (whether you die or not) for what you are told is the benefit of millions....if you dont understand what makes them so special get your ass over there and find out...i have a friend whos in iraq and when he comes home on leave i can tell he is  a totally different person


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Invisibledownforpot
Stranger
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Registered: 06/25/01
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Re: athiest soilder sues military. . . [Re: WornTraveler]
    #8630739 - 07/13/08 07:18 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

WornTraveler said:
Quote:

downforpot said:
Quote:

WornTraveler said:
I seriously doubt that someone would not get promoted in the military because of his religion. There are a million reasons for people to *not* be put in a position where others' lives are in their hands.

And if the guy is just downright not a leader, well, not much you can do. Some people can inspire others to lay down on the train tracks, other people couldn't convince you to try a new restaurant out much less run through an open area with people shooting at ya.




So why the hell did the army get him a body guard? Why did the army discipline two officers for promoting a christian program during the 4th of July? Why are there over 8000 complaints from soldiers?





They probably gave him a bodyguard because, before he left, he bitched about not getting his promotion, his entire platoon started calling him a bitch-ass pussy, and he got scared and blew it out of proportion, so they gave him a bodyguard to look like they actually gave a fuck and get his complaining ass off their case. :grin:


My guess at least. Also, out of a force of millions of people, eight thousand is not a whole lot. You also have to consider that they didn't say exactly when these "complaints" were lodged. For all we know, that's starting from 2008 or 1778.






Prove it all wrong. So far you have no evidence. I can give you a ton of articles and lawsuits filed due to psychotic christians pushing their imaginary friend down other people's throats including other christians.

You honestly believe these complaints are not recent? LOL AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA


"Evangelical grunts

Religious groups are training American soldiers to view the world as a clash of civilisations
All comments ()

    * Matthew Harwood
    * guardian.co.uk,
    * Friday June 27, 2008

A US sniper uses the Qur'an as target practice in Baghdad. A US Marine hands out coins to residents in Fallujah that ask in Arabic on one side: "Where will you spend eternity?" The other side is inscribed with a Biblical verse: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16." An American soldier who performed two tours in Iraq is denied promotion when his superiors learn he is an atheist, after he refuses to pray during Thanksgiving dinner (pdf). An anti-Islamic poster adorns the door of the Military Police office at Fort Riley, Kansas, featuring a quote from conservative pundit Ann Coulter: "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity." And as the New York Times reported this week, some cadets at West Point and the Naval Academy feel pressured by their schools to adopt a Judeo-Christian worldview.

Some may say these are isolated incidents of religious intolerance, but evidence is mounting that a virulent evangelical Christianity is spreading through the American armed forces, breaking the constitutional barrier between church and state and worse, like our jihadist enemies, presenting the "war on terror" as a clash of civilisations between the Christian west and the global Muslim community.

The process of creating good Christian soldiers starts early, according to the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF), a group fighting to maintain the secularism of the armed forces. At Fort Jackson army base in Columbia, South Carolina, the director of the Christian outreach group Military Ministry, Frank Bussey, tells soldiers that "government authorities, police and the military = God's ministers". Photographs exist of Bussey's student-soldiers posing in their fatigues with rifle in one hand and Bible in the other, an eerily similar pose to jihadist martyrs with their rifles and Qur'ans. His Bible study classes are known as "God's Basic Training", where attending cadets learn "when you join the military, you've really joined the ministry."

Military Ministry was established in 1964 by Bill Bright, the founder of the controversial fundamentalist Christian organisation, Campus Crusade for Christ, because, according to the group's website, "he recognised the military as a special audience for evangelistic outreach."

But what the group means is that soldiers are prime for easy indoctrination. In 2002, according to MRFF, the Military Ministry's website carried a brutally honest description of the group's strategy:

    Young recruits are under great pressure as they enter the military at their initial training gateways. The demands of drill instructors push recruits and new cadets to the edge. This is why they are most open to the "good news". We target specific locations, like Lackland AFB [Air Force Base] and Fort Jackson, where large numbers of military members transition early in their career. These sites are excellent locations to pursue our strategic goals.

An investigation by MRFF in 2006 into Military Ministry's activities at Lackland Air Force Base and Fort Sam Houston, an army base, uncovered evidence that Military Ministry staffers have successfully converted incoming soldiers with the approval of top commanders.

In another episode in 2002, Campus Crusade for Christ made a promotional video at the US Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, Colorado, featuring three cadets and two chaplains in uniform, thus violating a prohibition against endorsing a non-federal entity while in uniform. The video also talks of "spiritual programmes" on Monday nights encouraged by the academy, and Campus Crusade's campus director Scott Blom calls the cadets he indoctrinates "government paid missionaries" for Christ.

A similar promotional video for Campus Crusade's Christian Embassy, a social networking organisation for Washington DC's evangelical elites, also caused the department of defence's inspector general to rebuke seven military officers. His report (pdf) last year said that each officer's appearance in a promotional video for the group while "in uniform with rank clearly displayed, in official and often identifiable Pentagon locations" conferred the appearance that the defence department endorsed Christian Embassy.

As Jeff Sharlet wrote in Harper's Magazine in 2006, in the video Major General Jack Catton "says that he sees his position as an adviser to the Joint Chiefs of Staff as a 'wonderful opportunity' to evangelise men and women setting defence policy. 'My first priority is my faith,' he says. 'I think it's a huge impact. ... You have many men and women who are seeking God's counsel and wisdom as they advise the chairman [of the joint chiefs] and the secretary of defence.'"

But the proselytising doesn't end at the Air Force Academy or within the halls of the Pentagon, according to the New York Times. West Point and the Naval Academy are guilty too. Nine midshipmen at the Naval Academy recently asked the American Civil Liberties Union to petition the school to abolish daily prayer at lunch where attendance is mandatory. The academy denied their request. Sources ranging from seven cadets, two officers and a former chaplain at West Point told the Times that those that didn't attend religious services were sometimes called "heathens". Mandatory banquets begin with prayer.

MRFF's founder and director, Mike Weinstein, a former legal counsel in the Reagan administration, says that by giving such evangelical Christian organisations and sentiment such privileged access, the defence department is "creating a fundamentalist Christian Taliban." While this may sound like hyperbole, creating soldiers that have no tolerance or respect for other faiths or belief systems has real consequences.

Militarily, it slowly creates a soldiery divided by sectarianism, when it should be unified to fight for one and one thing only: the United States constitution.

Overseas, the impact is more immediately felt.

When news broke last month regarding the shooting of the Qur'an, 1,000 Afghans rioted; three people died. Also, the news that an American sniper was riddling their holy book with bullets didn't go over well with the Sunni tribes the US had cobbled together into a coalition, known as the Sunni Awakening, to fight al-Qaida and its fellow travellers in Iraq. The episode led Major General Jeffery Hammond to go prostrate before tribal leaders in Radwaniyah and say: "I come before you here seeking your forgiveness. In the most humble manner I look in your eyes today and I say please forgive me and my soldiers."

Incidents such as these can be exploited by al-Qaida and other jihadists to argue, rather convincingly, that the United States is not in a war against terrorism but a war against Islam. When peaceful Muslims come to buy into this narrative, al-Qaida and its fellow travellers become heroic defenders of the faith, and a new generation of Muslims become vulnerable to radicalisation.

In the statement apologising for the sniper's conduct, the military said the incident was "not representative of the professionalism of our soldiers or the respect they have for all faiths". This may be so, but until portions of the American military stop giving preferential access and treatment to evangelical fundamentalist Christian organisations like Campus Crusade for Christ's Military Ministry, jihadists will have evidence that the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are nothing more than a 21st-century crusade to reconquer Muslim lands for Christ's salvation, led by a president who wears his crucifix on his sleeve.

Robert Kaplan describes American soldiers endearingly as "imperial grunts", but this fundamentalist subsection of American soldiers is more akin to "evangelical grunts" - soldiers who believe that there is no difference between American national interest and god's interest and are zealous to spread this message through the force of arms.

American national security can only suffer from such a divisive belief."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jun/27/military.religion



KANSAS CITY, Kansas (CNN) -- Army Spc. Jeremy Hall was raised Baptist.
Jeremy Hall

Army Spc. Jeremy Hall, who was raised Baptist but is now an atheist, says the military violated his religious freedom.
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Like many Christians, he said grace before dinner and read the Bible before bed. Four years ago when he was deployed to Iraq, he packed his Bible so he would feel closer to God.

He served two tours of duty in Iraq and has a near perfect record. But somewhere between the tours, something changed. Hall, now 23, said he no longer believes in God, fate, luck or anything supernatural.


Hall said he met some atheists who suggested he read the Bible again. After doing so, he said he had so many unanswered questions that he decided to become an atheist.

His sudden lack of faith, he said, cost him his military career and put his life at risk. Hall said his life was threatened by other troops and the military assigned a full-time bodyguard to protect him out of fear for his safety. Video Watch why Hall says his lack of faith almost got him killed »

In March, Hall filed a federal lawsuit against the U.S. Department of Defense and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, among others. In the suit, Hall claims his rights to religious freedom under the First Amendment were violated and suggests that the United States military has become a Christian organization.

"I think it's utterly and totally wrong. Unconstitutional," Hall said.

Hall said there is a pattern of discrimination against non-Christians in the military.

Two years ago on Thanksgiving Day, after refusing to pray at his table, Hall said he was told to go sit somewhere else. In another incident, when he was nearly killed during an attack on his Humvee, he said another soldier asked him, "Do you believe in Jesus now?"

Hall isn't seeking compensation in his lawsuit -- just the guarantee of religious freedom in the military. Eventually, Hall was sent home early from Iraq and later returned to Fort Riley in Junction City, Kansas, to complete his tour of duty.

He also said he missed out on promotions because he is an atheist.

"I was told because I can't put my personal beliefs aside and pray with troops I wouldn't make a good leader," Hall said.


Michael Weinstein, a retired senior Air Force officer and founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, is suing along with Hall. Weinstein said he's been contacted by more than 8,000 members of the military, almost all of them complaining of pressure to embrace evangelical Christianity.


"Our Pentagon, our Pentacostalgon, is refusing to realize that when you put the uniform on, there's only one religious faith: patriotism," Weinstein said.

Religious discrimination is a violation of the First Amendment and is also against military policy. The Pentagon refused to discuss specifics of Hall's case -- citing the litigation. But Deputy Undersecretary Bill Carr said complaints of evangelizing are "relatively rare." He also said the Pentagon is not pushing one faith among troops.

"If an atheist chose to follow their convictions, absolutely that's acceptable," said Carr. "And that's a point of religious accommodation in department policy, one may hold whatever faith, or may hold no faith."
Don't Miss

    * Blog: Is the military a Christian organization?
    * AC360.com

Weinstein said he doesn't buy it and points to a promotional video by a group called Christian Embassy. The video, which shows U.S. generals in uniform, was shot inside the Pentagon. The generals were subsequently reprimanded.

Another group, the Officers' Christian Fellowship, has representatives on nearly all military bases worldwide. Its vision, which is spelled out on the organization's Web site, reads, "A spiritually transformed military, with ambassadors for Christ in uniform empowered by the Holy Spirit."

Weinstein has a different interpretation.

"Their purpose is to have Christian officers exercise Biblical leadership to raise up a godly army," he says.

But Carr said the military's position is clear.
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"Proselytizing or advancing a religious conviction is not what the nation would have us do and it's not what the military does," Carr said.


The U.S. Justice Department is expected to respond to Hall's lawsuit this week. In the meantime, he continues to work in the military police unit at Fort Riley and plans to leave as soon as his tour of duty expires next year

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/07/08/atheist.soldier/index.html


"OD Stops Plan to Send Christian Video Game to Troops in Iraq
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August 15, 2007 11:19 AM

Anna Schecter Reports:

Dodstopsplan_mn Plans by a Christian group to send an evangelical video game to U.S. troops in Iraq were abruptly halted yesterday by the Department of Defense after ABC News inquired about the program.

Operation Start Up (OSU) Tour, an evangelical entertainment troupe that actively proselytizes among soldiers, will not be sending the "apocryphal" video game in care packages as planned, according to the department.

"Left Behind: Eternal Forces" was inspired by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins' best-selling book series about the battle of Armageddon, in which believers of Jesus Christ fight the Antichrist.

The game has inspired controversy among freedom of religion advocates since it was released last year.

"It's a horrible game," said the Rev. Timothy Simpson of the Christians Alliance for Progress. "You either kill or covert the other side. This is exactly what the Osama bin Ladens of the world have portrayed us."

Click Here for Full Blotter Coverage.

Troy Lyndon, the producer of the game, said the game's "warfare" is not violent, and that it emphasizes "spiritual battles" over fighting with guns. The game gives incentives to recruit believers instead of killing the forces of the Antichrist, according to Lyndon.

Lyndon added, "There is no forcible conversion to Christianity, and killing is never an objective in any of the 40 missions in the game."

A team of researchers at the Military Religious Freedom Foundation discovered OSU Tour's plan to send the game to Iraq, and their discovery was first reported by Max Blumenthal in The Nation last week.

MRFF President Mikey Weinstein said he is gratified the Pentagon "claims it is going to cease this provocative act" that emboldens organizations like the Taliban and al Qaeda.

"I doubt this will prevent unconstitutional activity in the Pentagon with regards to freedom of religion for more than just a few days," said Weinstein.

OSU Tour is one of the newest members of the Defense Department's America Supports You program, which connects citizens and corporations with members of the military and their families at home and abroad.

OSU Tour's entertainment aims to help military children and families become stronger through faith-based entertainment, according to its Web site. Sports personalities, comedians and actors, including Stephen Baldwin, make up the show.

OSU president Jonathan Sprinks in a recent press release said of Baldwin, "Since God made a difference in his life, he's been very outspoken."

Sprinks came under fire from bloggers for writing on his Web site, "We feel the forces of heaven have encouraged us to perform multiple crusades that will sweep through this war-torn region," about OSU Tour's planned trip to Iraq. "We'll hold the only religious crusade of its size in the dangerous land of Iraq."

The above text has been removed from Sprinks' site but can be viewed on the cached page.

Sprinks did not return requests for comment on this article.

The Defense Department's only comment on the record was that the OSU Tour is "currently not planning on sending any care packages to the troops in Iraq."

In addition to the game, OSU Tour's "Freedom Packets" were supposed to include pocket-sized editions of the New Testament, evangelical DVDs and books, baby wipes and phone cards, according to its Web site."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/08/dod-stops-plan-.html

"
Not so fast, Christian soldiers
The Pentagon has a disturbing relationship with private evangelical groups.
By Michael L. Weinstein and Reza Aslan
August 22, 2007
Maybe what the war in Iraq needs is not more troops but more religion. At least that's the message the Department of Defense seems to be sending.

Last week, after an investigation spurred by the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, the Pentagon abruptly announced that it would not be delivering "freedom packages" to our soldiers in Iraq, as it had originally intended.

What were the packages to contain? Not body armor or home-baked cookies. Rather, they held Bibles, proselytizing material in English and Arabic and the apocalyptic computer game "Left Behind: Eternal Forces" (derived from the series of post-Rapture novels), in which "soldiers for Christ" hunt down enemies who look suspiciously like U.N. peacekeepers.

The packages were put together by a fundamentalist Christian ministry called Operation Straight Up, or OSU. Headed by former kickboxer Jonathan Spinks, OSU is an official member of the Defense Department's "America Supports You" program. The group has staged a number of Christian-themed shows at military bases, featuring athletes, strongmen and actor-turned-evangelist Stephen Baldwin. But thanks in part to the support of the Pentagon, Operation Straight Up has now begun focusing on Iraq, where, according to its website (on pages taken down last week), it planned an entertainment tour called the "Military Crusade."

Apparently the wonks at the Pentagon forgot that Muslims tend to bristle at the word "crusade" and thought that what the Iraq war lacked was a dose of end-times theology.

In the end, the Defense Department realized the folly of participating in any Operation Straight Up crusade. But the episode is just another example of increasingly disturbing, and indeed unconstitutional, relationships being forged between the U.S. military and private evangelical groups.

Take, for instance, the recent scandal involving Christian Embassy, a group whose expressed purpose is to proselytize to military personnel, diplomats, Capitol Hill staffers and political appointees. In a shocking breach of security, Defense Department officials allowed a Christian Embassy film crew to roam the corridors of the Pentagon unescorted while making a promotional video featuring high-ranking officers and political appointees. (Christian Embassy, which holds prayer meetings weekly at the Pentagon, is so entrenched that Air Force Maj. Gen. John J. Catton Jr. said he'd assumed the organization was a "quasi-federal entity.")

The Pentagon's inspector general recently released a report recommending unspecified "corrective action" for those officers who appeared in the video for violating Defense Department regulations. But, in a telling gesture, the report avoided any discussion of how allowing an evangelical group to function within the Defense Department is an obvious violation of the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment.

The extent to which such relationships have damaged international goodwill toward the U.S. is beyond measure. As the inspector general noted, a leading Turkish newspaper, Sabah, published an article on Air Force Maj. Gen. Peter Sutton, who is the U.S. liaison to the Turkish military -- and who appeared in the Christian Embassy video. The article described Christian Embassy as a "radical fundamentalist sect," perhaps irreparably damaging Sutton's primary job objective of building closer ties to the Turkish General Staff, which has expressed alarm at the influence of fundamentalist Christian groups inside the U.S. military.

Our military personnel swear an oath to protect and defend the Constitution, not the Bible. Yet by turning a blind eye to OSU and Christian Embassy activities, the Pentagon is, in essence, endorsing their proselytizing. And sometimes it's more explicit than that.

That certainly was the case with Army Lt. Gen. William "Jerry" Boykin, deputy undersecretary of Defense for intelligence. The Pentagon put him in charge of the hunt for Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda in 2003. The same year, Boykin was found to be touring American churches, where he gave speeches -- in uniform -- casting the Iraq war in end-times terms. "We're in is a spiritual battle," he told one congregation in Oregon. "Satan wants to destroy this nation . . . and he wants to destroy us as a Christian army." The story wound up in newspapers, magazines and on "60 Minutes." And, of course, it was reported all over the Muslim world. The Pentagon reacted with a collective shrug.

American military and political officials must, at the very least, have the foresight not to promote crusade rhetoric in the midst of an already religion-tinged war. Many of our enemies in the Mideast already believe that the world is locked in a contest between Christianity and Islam. Why are our military officials validating this ludicrous claim with their own fiery religious rhetoric?

It's time to actively strip the so-called war on terror of its religious connotations, not add to them. Because religious wars are not just ugly, they are unwinnable. And despite what Operation Straight Up and its supporters in the Pentagon may think is taking place in Iraq, the Rapture is not a viable exit strategy." http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-aslan22aug22,0,4674900.story?coll=la-opinion-center


"At Speicher base in Iraq, US Army Spec. Jeremy Hall got permission from a chaplain in August to post fliers announcing a meeting for atheists and other nonbelievers. When the group gathered, Specialist Hall alleges, his Army major supervisor disrupted the meeting and threatened to retaliate against him, including blocking his reenlistment in the Army.

Months earlier, Hall charges, he had been publicly berated by a staff sergeant for not agreeing to join in a Thanksgiving Day prayer.

On Sept. 17, the soldier and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF) filed suit against Army Maj. Freddy Welborn and US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, charging violations of Hall's constitutional rights, including being forced to submit to a religious test to qualify as a soldier.

The MRFF plans more lawsuits in coming weeks, says Michael "Mikey" Weinstein, who founded the military watchdog group in 2005. The aim is "to show there is a pattern and practice of constitutionally impermissible promotions of religious beliefs within the Department of Defense."

For Mr. Weinstein – a former Air Force judge advocate and assistant counsel in the Reagan White House – more is involved than isolated cases of discrimination. He charges that several incidents in recent years – and more than 5,000 complaints his group has received from active-duty and retired military personnel – point to a growing willingness inside the military to support a particular brand of Christianity and to permit improper evangelizing in the ranks. More than 95 percent of those complaints come from other Christians, he says.

Others agree on the need for the watchdog group, but question the conspiratorial view and some of its tactics. They say dealing with religious issues is a complex matter, and the military is trying to address them appropriately.

At the Defense Department, spokeswoman Cynthia Smith says the DOD doesn't comment on litigation, but "places a high value on the rights of members of the Armed Forces to observe the tenets of their respective religions."

Since the Revolutionary War, the armed services have tried to ensure that soldiers can practice their faiths, and that chaplains serve not only those of their own sect but all who may need pastoral care. The services have also sought to adhere to the First Amendment prohibition of any government "establishment of religion."

In the 1990s, for instance, the Air Force's Little Blue Book of core values highlighted religious tolerance, emphasizing that military professionals "must not take it upon themselves to change or coercively influence the religious views of subordinates."

Weinstein insists, however, that there are improper actions at high levels that not only infringe on soldiers' rights but, at a very dangerous time, also send the wrong message to people in the Middle East that those in the US military see themselves engaged in Christian warfare.

For example, he says, Lt. Gen. William Boykin, who gave speeches at churches while in uniform that disparaged Islam and defined the war on terror in fundamentalist, "end times" terms, was not fired but promoted. (Speaking of a Muslim warlord he had pursued, Lt. Gen. Boykin said, "I knew my God was a real God and his was an idol." And our enemies "will only be defeated if we come against them in the name of Jesus.")

"There's an eschatologically obsessed version of Christianity that ... is trying to make American foreign and domestic policy conterminous with their biblical worldview," Weinstein charges. And "there's improper pressure within the military command structure to make members join them."

The most serious allegations from the field cannot be corroborated for this article. A few will be raised in the lawsuits, but some incidents have been documented.

Perhaps the most visible situation – and the one that set Weinstein off on his mission – involved the evangelizing of cadets on the part of some faculty and staff at the Air Force Academy (AFA) in Colorado Springs, Colo., which came to light in 2004. Congress held hearings, DOD conducted an investigation, and the head of the academy acknowledged significant problems. Weinstein's cadet son experienced the pressures as a Jew.

Col. David Antoon (ret.), another alumnus of the AFA and now a 747 commercial pilot, says his heart was broken when he took his son, Ryan, to an orientation at the academy in the spring of 2004. An overt evangelistic approach during part of the orientation so upset them, he says, that they decided his son would reject the treasured appointment and instead go to Ohio State University.

"My son had dreamed of doing what I had done, but it was no longer the institution I went to," Colonel Antoon says, his voice cracking with emotion.

The Air Force set about reaffirming basic principles in religion guidelines, as a basis for widespread training, but a pushback by Evangelicals later led to Congress setting them aside until hearings could be held. The hearings have not taken place.

In 2006, MRFF learned of a video produced by Christian Embassy, a group that conducts Bible studies at the Pentagon and seeks to evangelize within the armed services. Aimed at fundraising for the group, the video was improperly taped in the Pentagon and involved endorsements by Army and Air Force generals in uniform.

MRFF's public alert spurred a DOD investigation. In a report critical of the senior officers, the Inspector General said they gave the appearance of speaking for the military. One general defended his role by saying "Christian Embassy had become a quasi-federal entity."

The report noted that Maj. Gen. Paul Sutton participated while he served as chief of the US Office of Defense Cooperation in Turkey, a largely Muslim nation whose military takes pride in protecting the country's secular status. After a Turkish newspaper wrote about the video as promoting a "fundamentalist sect," General Sutton was called in and questioned by members of the Turkish General Staff.

"They had to give him a lesson in the separation of church and state," Weinstein says. "Imagine the propaganda bonanza! And how this upset Muslims."

The DOD report on the video recommended "appropriate corrective action" be taken against the officers. According to Army spokesman Paul Boyce, "The Army has not yet completed any planned actions associated with the Christian Embassy review."

MRFF claims a victory in the case of the evangelical group Operation Stand Up. Earlier this year, OSU was preparing to send "freedom packages" to soldiers in Iraq as part of an Army program. Along with socks and snacks, the packages included proselytizing materials in English and Arabic, and the apocalyptic video game, "Left Behind: Eternal Forces." In it, Christians carry on warfare against people of other faiths.

After the plans were made public, the Pentagon announced in August that the materials would not be mailed. OSU did not respond to a request for comment.

Weinstein – an intense, voluble attorney who prizes blunt, no-holds-barred language – has struck more than one nerve with his bird-dogging. He says numerous threats have been made on his life. Last week, the front window of his house was shot out for the second time. After the lawsuit was filed, talk of "fragging" (killing) Specialist Hall surfaced on some military blogs. The Army is investigating.

Others sympathetic to Weinstein's concerns say some tactics undermine his efforts, and they question aims.

"He's uncovered some very disturbing stuff that shouldn't be going on in the armed forces," says Marc Stern, a religious liberty expert at American Jewish Congress. "But it's important that you not go too far." Mr. Stern disagrees, for instance, with Weinstein's stance on the Air Force guidelines, such as preventing military supervisors from ever speaking of religion to people under their command.

"He did a disservice to his and our cause by taking a position beyond what the law requires, and in fact may intrude on people's rights," Stern adds.

Several conservative Christian ministries publicly proclaim an evangelistic aim "to transform the nations of the world through the militaries of the world," and they are active at US military installations in many countries. (See www.militaryministry.org or militarymissionsnetwork.org.)

MRFF sees that as a harbinger of a volunteer military falling under the sway of increasing numbers of Christian soldiers. Others see a military leadership, with the exception of a few generals here or there, well aware of its constitutional responsibilities, but challenged by the demands of training on these issues in a military of millions. A group such as MRFF can provide a crucial service, they say, if it is willing to work with the military.

Right now, Weinstein is counting on a set of lawsuits to bring serious issues to the fore. The question is whether those suits will go beyond individual cases of discrimination to prove an unconstitutional pattern within the armed forces. " http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1004/p13s02-lire.html


"
Michael Weinstein
On evangelicals in the military
8 AUG 2007  •  by Fiona Morgan



Michael Weinstein
U.S. Air Force veteran Michael Weinstein says the American military is being undermined from within by fundamentalist Christians who are coercing soldiers into their brand of faith. A Republican who worked for President Ronald Reagan before becoming general counsel to Texas billionaire and presidential candidate Ross Perot, Weinstein is foremost a military man. His recent book, With God on Our Side: One Man's War Against an Evangelical Coup in America's Military, presents what he sees as a grave threat to the nation's security.

How many people have contacted your group, the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, with stories of being proselytized to by military commanders?

We've had just under 5,000 members of the U.S. Army, Marine Corps, Navy and Air Force. Of the troops who have come to us, including some civilians and veterans, roughly 96 percent of them are Christians themselves. The remaining 4 percent are the minority faiths, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs or atheists.

What sorts of stories do they tell you?

An army private from Fort Bragg contacted me when he was going through basic training. When he signed up, they asked him his religious denomination and he said Christian, but they identified him as not being fundamentalist enough Christian, and they punished him by putting 'none' on his dog tags. When he got to Afghanistan, the commander said that the blessings of the Lord Jesus would not be on the unit unless everyone were evangelical, and since he would not convert, this 20-year-old private would be responsible for the deaths and injuries the unit might suffer.

In another case, we caught a three-star general who ordered his staff to put together a PowerPoint presentation demonstrating the direct parallel between the Book of Revelation and all of our combat movements in Tikrit, Mosul, Fallujah, Sadr City and farther east in Afghanistan. We were able to stop it after it got to 2,500 troops.

What group inside the military is doing this?

What we're fighting here is a subset of evangelical Christianity that goes by a long name: pre-millennial dispensational reconstructionist dominionist fundamentalist evangelical Christianity. There's an organization for officers called the Officers Christian Fellowship, and for the enlisted folks called the Christian Military Fellowship. The first goal is a 'spiritually transformed' U.S. military. The second goal is [to be] ambassadors for Christ in uniform—by the way, if you check the last 2,000 years, that hasn't worked out too well. Thirdly, [they are] empowered by the Holy Spirit.

In the private sector this would last about three seconds. It would be a killer lawsuit under Title 7 of the U.S. Code. Those serving in the military have to give up many constitutional rights. 'Get the hell out of my face, sir or ma'am' is not an option for you if you're being even gently evangelized. Because they're second-class citizens by design, they're very vulnerable, and the military knows this.

When people come to you with these complaints, what do you do?

Our job is to kick ass and to take names. We lay down a withering field of fire and leave chest wounds on those who would bring constitutional darkness to our military. I usually call commanders and tell them that we're here and we're going public. But making phone calls and doing interviews is at best weed whacking; that keeps them at bay for only a short time. The best thing we can do is to go into federal court, which we will do in a few days with a massive federal lawsuit directly confronting this.

We are not trying to take anyone's religious faith away; we are simply saying you can't use the machinery of the state, the awesome power of our military, to force religion on your subordinates up and down the chain of command. Must we become the Christian Taliban to defeat this Taliban and Al Qaeda?

For more information, visit www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org.
" http://www.indyweek.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A158257


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

Edited by downforpot (07/13/08 07:40 PM)

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InvisibleFerris
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Re: athiest soilder sues military. . . [Re: heartofalion]
    #8630866 - 07/13/08 07:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

heartofalion said:
Quote:

Ferris said:
Quote:

HoleSnype said:
That is easy for some civilian sitting on their arse to say.




I've seen war.  War on the streets.  What is it about seeing men shot and killed that makes one so special?




War on the streets you are fighting for YOUR LIFE and YOUR PROPERTY....In Iraq you are sacrificing yourself (whether you die or not) for what you are told is the benefit of millions....if you dont understand what makes them so special get your ass over there and find out...i have a friend whos in iraq and when he comes home on leave i can tell he is  a totally different person




Rather than argue motives, I question the relevance of the matter.

I see no excuse in your arguments for soldiers to not obey the way of life that they contend to uphold.


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InvisibleCrasher
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Re: athiest soilder sues military. . . [Re: Ferris]
    #8631174 - 07/13/08 08:41 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ferris said:
What this all comes down to is that the people we are giving the guns to, that we are entrusting to support our way of life and uphold the constitution, need to OBEY THE FUCKING LAW.  It's as simple as that.  No more of this, "well, they're soldiers, let's cut em slack because they make up for it in other ways" crap.  Military is part of the "state" (who care's if it's not the same as a school :stars:), so yes, separation of church and state does apply, geez.




Obey the law as in what? Congress shall make no law regarding an establishment of religion, or prevent the free exercise thereof?

Considering how religious soldiers want to pray before going into combat, I'm pretty sure a secular military would be a blatant violation of the exercise clause.

My regiment has its own prayer, and although I'm not Christian by any means, I felt their right to pray was more important than my desire not to hear it.

Also, what is this tattoo nonsense? I've never read any UCMJ article for no-tattoos. Look at the marines, they just added a "no large" tattoos policy, but to ban them all together is impossible in military culture.


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Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: athiest soilder sues military. . . [Re: Ferris]
    #8631193 - 07/13/08 08:46 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Uh yeah, dude, I don't care enough about the issue to read a fuckin' book lol. Especially since I can probably just find all that stuff later when I have the time, just as fast as you did on Google .


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Re: athiest soilder sues military. . . [Re: mathewww]
    #8631211 - 07/13/08 08:49 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mathewww said:

Quote:

The military has become one big Christian regime.




No it hasn't. The Army has the full gambit of Christian to Buddhist Chaplains for soldiers of all faiths. Wiccans receive special grave markers at Arlington.

Quote:

That's exactly what the military wants though,




You understand and can speak for the entire military? Including every officer with post graduate degrees in everything from economics to military science?

Quote:

people who listen, take things for what they are and are willing to die cause they know that "jesus" will bless them and the "Holy Spirit" is in them.




Yeah, that was the only thing that got me through combat. :whatever:


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Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: athiest soilder sues military. . . [Re: Crasher]
    #8631259 - 07/13/08 08:56 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Crasher said:
Obey the law as in what? Congress shall make no law regarding an establishment of religion, or prevent the free exercise thereof?

Considering how religious soldiers want to pray before going into combat, I'm pretty sure a secular military would be a blatant violation of the exercise clause.

My regiment has its own prayer, and although I'm not Christian by any means, I felt their right to pray was more important than my desire not to hear it.





I don't want you to misjudge my intent here.  I fully support the ability of individuals to participate in religious practices.  I don't have any issues with praying with your regiment either (in fact, I pray with others frequently, seeing it as a statement of love, desire, compassion, etc, rather than conversing with god).  All I am asking, is that this not be mandatory, nor should religion effect the policies the military makes in strategic matters (internally), nor should a person not be promoted because they're religious preference may effect their ability to interact with their subordinates.

Granted, he may not have been promoted anyways, and his inability to resolve this matter without pleaing to the courts may indicate a lack of inherent leadership skills that would be necesarry for such leadership, but that is all besides the point.


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Re: athiest soilder sues military. . . [Re: WornTraveler]
    #8631346 - 07/13/08 09:11 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

WornTraveler said:
Uh yeah, dude, I don't care enough about the issue to read a fuckin' book lol. Especially since I can probably just find all that stuff later when I have the time, just as fast as you did on Google .




I didn't just find it. I have half of this bookmarked. So the fact still remains that there is active proselytizing by the cocksucking evangelical faggots and you seem to be blind to that....

Why the hell don't you google it yourself?


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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Re: athiest soilder sues military. . . [Re: Ferris]
    #8631347 - 07/13/08 09:11 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

All I am asking, is that this not be mandatory, nor should religion effect the policies the military makes in strategic matters (internally), nor should a person not be promoted because they're religious preference may effect their ability to interact with their subordinates.





Agreed. But an Army E4 to E5 promotion board is done at the unit level, consisting of maybe six people. (immediate supervisor, company NCOIC, Battalion NCOIC, etc) You don't need to sue the DoD for what the IG  (investigator general) should have handled at the unit.

He's being turned into a puppet for a special-interest group. In 5 years of service I never felt discriminated against for believing something else.

I got called a dirty pagan by a guy I called Bible belt trash. :shrug: Oh, my constitutional rights have been infringed upon.

Quote:


Granted, he may not have been promoted anyways, and his inability to resolve this matter without pleaing to the courts may indicate a lack of inherent leadership skills that would be necesarry for such leadership, but that is all besides the point.




It is besides the point, but very valid, and probably the truth of the matter.


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Re: athiest soilder sues military. . . [Re: downforpot]
    #8631479 - 07/13/08 09:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:
Quote:

WornTraveler said:
Uh yeah, dude, I don't care enough about the issue to read a fuckin' book lol. Especially since I can probably just find all that stuff later when I have the time, just as fast as you did on Google .




I didn't just find it. I have half of this bookmarked. So the fact still remains that there is active proselytizing by the cocksucking evangelical faggots and you seem to be blind to that....

Why the hell don't you google it yourself?






Because I don't care that much. :shrug:

Let the army do their thing- you go ahead and be paranoid about Christians taking the military over, I'll continue to live my life which is completely unaffected by it.


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Re: athiest soilder sues military. . . [Re: WornTraveler]
    #8631560 - 07/13/08 10:03 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

active proselytizing by the cocksucking evangelical faggots and you seem to be blind to that....




They exist to the same percentage as in the rest of our country. Just big enough to hear about, but irrelevant in comparison to the size of the four branches.


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Re: athiest soilder sues military. . . [Re: WornTraveler]
    #8631631 - 07/13/08 10:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

WornTraveler said:
Quote:

downforpot said:
Quote:

WornTraveler said:
Uh yeah, dude, I don't care enough about the issue to read a fuckin' book lol. Especially since I can probably just find all that stuff later when I have the time, just as fast as you did on Google .




I didn't just find it. I have half of this bookmarked. So the fact still remains that there is active proselytizing by the cocksucking evangelical faggots and you seem to be blind to that....

Why the hell don't you google it yourself?





Actually there are Christians that are complaining about the evangelicals. So by you saying that it's about the "Christians" it shows that you don't know anything about the subject. By your logic every Christian is the same.... Sorry but the case right now is that Evangelicals are gathering a lot of power when compared to Catholics and other non evangelical protestants. I actually like Catholics but I fucking hate Evangelicals.

If you don't care then you never should have made a single post. Go to OTD.


Because I don't care that much. :shrug:

Let the army do their thing- you go ahead and be paranoid about Christians taking the military over, I'll continue to live my life which is completely unaffected by it.




Actually there are Christians that are complaining about the evangelicals. So by you saying that it's about the "Christians" it shows that you don't know anything about the subject. By your logic every Christian is the same.... Sorry but the case right now is that Evangelicals are gathering a lot of power when compared to Catholics and other non evangelical protestants. I actually like Catholics but I fucking hate Evangelicals.

If you don't care then you never should have made a single post. Go to OTD.

And yet again you have yet to refute any of my claims. All you have pretty much said is that "it's all bs". Is it also bullshit when the Pentagon disciplines two officers for promoting a Christian agenda during the 4th of July?


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

Edited by downforpot (07/13/08 10:31 PM)

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Re: athiest soilder sues military. . . [Re: Crasher]
    #8631640 - 07/13/08 10:32 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Crasher said:
Quote:

active proselytizing by the cocksucking evangelical faggots and you seem to be blind to that....




They exist to the same percentage as in the rest of our country. Just big enough to hear about, but irrelevant in comparison to the size of the four branches.




So you are saying they have no impact on our military? We should just let them convert people and not worry about it?


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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Offlineg00ru
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Re: athiest soilder sues military. . . [Re: downforpot]
    #8631647 - 07/13/08 10:33 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

The best you can do is try to educate people, attacking evangelicals directly only adds fuel to their fire.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: athiest soilder sues military. . . [Re: g00ru]
    #8634237 - 07/14/08 04:39 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
The best you can do is try to educate people, attacking evangelicals directly only adds fuel to their fire.




How do you educate people that are full of blind faith?


--------------------



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"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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