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OfflineRoseM
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: t00th]
    #8043202 - 02/19/08 02:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I just mean, make sure you get a LOT of verm on them... and patch the holes from your first flush. Don't know if it'll help though. I think you're getting about as much as you'll get... but I suspect lots of verm to encourage new myc and a lot of water are about the only things you can still try.


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Offline_Silence_
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: t00th]
    #8622005 - 07/11/08 01:55 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Make your own spore prints from your harvest.

Try casing.

Then move on to grains...


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" We will come to find that we are all one mind "

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OfflinePowerOfTheCoir
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: _Silence_]
    #8622607 - 07/11/08 04:23 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

On Cakes and Flushes

Everyone is telling you to be happy for a good reason - that's a respectable yield you're getting.

Flushes are rarely even. The variations in flush weights aren't always random either. Flushes are heavily dependent on available water and available food.

You can't do anything about the food (and don't try). I suspect that this might be the big culprit. Later flushes slow down because there's less food available. With big first flushes, you SHOULD see less in later flushes. People who get 7 flushes often have, at best, a bunch of moderate yields and a few small ones. Most people consider being able to get more of the total cake potential fruited in the early flushes a huge plus. This means you get your weight before contams can stop you.

For the water, dunk. You're already doing this, but evaluate your method and see if there is any room for improvement. You're using cakes that are twice as big as the standard half-pint, so it may take a little longer to fully hydrate them. They're not sponges that just suck water through tiny channels into waiting open spaces. You're actually hydrating the cells . The outer cells have to get water into the inner cells, and with a larger mass it will take longer. If you are only dunking for 12 hours (often said to be fine for post-flush dunks) try 24 hours. Just be sure to do it in the fridge because the cold slows down the metabolism so that the O2 deprivation doesn't cause problems.

Another improvement you might not be using for your dunk is the "deep dunk." Get the deepest pot you can, put the cakes on the bottom, hold them down with a heavy plate, and fill with water to the top. the extra water pressure from being further under the surface helps to force more water into the cells. I don't know if water is even your problem, but none of these modifications cost anything and they're low/no risk.


(Second flush after a much bigger 1st flush and deep 24hr dunk. All it's friends are doing well too, if not better)

Do you roll in verm after the second dunking? I think you said you did, but if not, try starting.

If there's not even much pinning, try improving pinning procedures. Maybe they're so healthy coming out of the jars that they are pinning well despite some problem, but they get picky after the first flush. Make sure you have plenty of humidity, FAE, and light. The easiest thing to introduce is the right light - all you have to do is buy these at any big store ($59 is the energy savings, not the price!):


Still, it's entirely possible that you're just really doing a great job of getting most of your work done up front.

On Bulk, Grains, and Crumble'n'Case

Quote:

now my question is, where to go now? i was thinking of going to 1/2 pint BRF jars hoping that i could just get a LOT of first flushes because of the shorter colonization time and then just keep doing that... or maybe crumble the cakes and case them? ... or maybe just go to Rye/WBS and case? im a new grower and have only done cakes, so i would prefer to stay around them, but i dont mind going to casings as well if it is really that big of a difference between cakes.




Crumble and casing is waaay over-rated. It does produce shrooms, often with a lot up front, but it never really outperforms cakes. It's also tougher to care for than cakes and more prone to contamination. I used to crumble-and-case and thought it was awesome. Then I helped a friend set up a tub with cakes and realized I was getting zero benefit from my method.

If you do crumble and case, ignore what people say about a bottom layer of verm. The bottom layer (often called "bottom casing") was an interesting idea, but it never worked right and caused lots of problems. I tried and abandoned that one too.

Quote:

i am very new at all of this. thats why i was asking about alternatives because i get a lot of mixed feedback, it seems people who use one method are biased towards that method and that makes it hard to make an educated decision.




Liar! A "very new" grower doesn't get yields like you do. And when he has a problem, he immediately kills his cakes by doing things everyone warned him not to. You're easily entering the intermediate stage. You can succeed with a complete tek and diagnose basic problems. You're ready to move on.

Don't be scared by "bulk" growing. Bulk doesn't have to mean huge, it just means that when you take you spawn (cakes or grains) out of the jars, you mix it with something nutritious to make more food available. It can be as small as you want or as big as you can handle.

A "bulk" grow can be small


Since you are very comfortable with cakes, you may want to try them as your first bulk spawn. Yes, grains are better. However, cakes will let you use one less new step your first time around. Just birth your cakes as normal, then crumble them up. Many people prefer to crumble them in a bag for cleanliness. For your bulk material, just read grow logs and similar reports on this board and in the archives. See what works for other people and seems like something you can handle. Everyone has something they prefer, and yes we're all biased towards it. You can look at my name and tell what I think you should start with. The hpoo people are right too. If you can find one but not the other, that makes your choice easy. If not, just see which one "calls to you." If you see a technique advocated by intelligent sounding people on this board and producing nice results, it's probably safe to try even if other intelligent people advocate something else.

Just don't case with coir or straight verm. Those people are wrong, wgrong, WRONG!

And don't let grains scare you either. Yeah, they're a little finicky until you get the hydration right, but once you get it down they're cheaper, easier, and better for spawn than cakes.  With your pint jars, you can easily hedge your bets. Make some cakes per usual, and if you have a PC, make some grains. We KNOW you can handle cakes, so unless a syringe goes evil, you'll at least have something to bulk with.

Good luck "movin' on up" into bulk, non-newbie!


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Check out my first ever TEK!
Shroom capsules with the Cap-M-Quik (pics)

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OfflineBrandNewbie
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: PowerOfTheCoir]
    #8622635 - 07/11/08 04:30 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I'm envious!  Congrats!!! :thumbup:


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Question: Why do women wear make-up and perfume? 
Answer: Because they're ugly and they stink.

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Offlinei3oosted
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: t00th]
    #8622667 - 07/11/08 04:41 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Looking for jars? For my first tek I just tried craigslist and found a guy with NEW UNUSED 7 cases of wide mouth 1/2 pint jars for 5 bucks a case. So you never know. Also ACE Hardware will carry them they just might have to order them for you.

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Offlinebuggas
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: i3oosted]
    #8623234 - 07/11/08 07:41 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Just don't case with coir or straight verm. Those people are wrong, wgrong, WRONG!




Just out of curiosity why do you say that? More specifically the coir case part. If you're feeling generous, please explain why, instead of saying "cuz coir sucks".

For jar seekers:
Don't forget, when you look for jars (or ask for them) remember that they are used for canning stuff so you might want to mention that when you ask the staff. Most of the time they are not anywhere near the Tupperware and plastic. I found mine in a dark corner of the store near the back; and the other time, they were in the front, next to the firewood, large bags of dog food and carpet cleaner rental. Since canning isn't really that big nowadays they're a little harder to see, but they're usually around for the canning grannies.


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There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers from stupid people.

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Invisiblethemange
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: buggas]
    #8623298 - 07/11/08 08:01 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

ive cased with straight verm on hundreds of casings.

verm isnt the devil..

you get what you put into it.

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OfflinePowerOfTheCoir
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: themange]
    #8625113 - 07/12/08 11:31 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Just out of curiosity why do you say that? More specifically the coir case part. If you're feeling generous, please explain why, instead of saying "cuz coir sucks".




Quote:

ive cased with straight verm on hundreds of casings.

verm isnt the devil..




That was an attempt at sarcasm that failed horribly. I often write like I speak. I forgot that a lot of things that sound clear without inflection and body language to help don't translate over to text on a screen. I put that unsupported, absolutist statement right after a paragraph that concluded by saying not to believe most absolutism. (see below)

Quote:

If you see a technique advocated by intelligent sounding people on this board and producing nice results, it's probably safe to try even if other intelligent people advocate something else.

Just don't case with coir or straight verm. Those people are wrong, wgrong, WRONG!




My bad. I had a brain fart. Now that I'm actually reading it, there's really no way to tell if it was sarcasm, or me saying that those two casings were the spawn of the dark lord himself. Well, let me make this clear right now - Satan didn't invent, nor has he even advocated, straight verm casings or casings containing any level of coir.

They were invented by Phil, the Prince of Insufficient Light.


(This guy cases with verm and/or coir)

There, I think I remembered how to make a joke clear on the internet. Now as far as my beliefs on the two casings....

Many intelligent people advocate straight verm or casings with coir in them. Many of these intelligent people get consistently impressive results with those casings. They certainly can't be BAD then. They probably can even be good!

(Just for disclosure's sake, my bias is towards peat/verm w/ gypsum and lime. I intend to experiment with oyster shells and a few other additives soon as well.)

100% Verm - I've done this. It worked. It's definitely the most straightforward casing to prepare. There's no mixing involved and pH isn't even a consideration. There's no worrying about whether to pasteurize or sterilize. It's totally inorganic, so you can often just hydrate, but it's also so ridiculously easy to sterilize, so most people go that way. There aren't any beneficial bacteria, so you don't have to try to keep it in a certain temp range - just bake the heck out of it. It holds water extremely well and the uniform texture makes it easy to apply evenly. With that said, I prefer having the beneficial bacteria which peat adds to the casing. I think that the bacteria can help fight off contaminants and, more importantly to me, I feel that they help with pinning. I don't have anything conclusive to support that, except that when I used peat in casings and pasteurized properly, I seem to see better pinsets. They weren't deliberate experiments, so I'm just stating my opinion. Maybe other people who have said the same have data, but I won't pretend to. I also feel that the peat component also improves the pinning climate by evaporating water at a better rate than verm. Verm definitely HOLDS water better, so that's why the 50/50 mix works well (in my opinion).

Coir in casings also works very well for some people. I haven't tried it, but I want to give it a run someday (albeit in my own way). The advantage I see in it is that having some food in a casing layer can help the the mycellium colonize up through it and quickly/evenly find pinning triggers like light and fresher air. That's just speculation though - I really don't know why people love it so much. I don't mean that to sound rude, I really think there IS a reason that rational people like it, I just don't get it. There are, however, reasons I don't like it, or at least consider it risky/counterproductive. My understanding is that casing should not be fully colonized, otherwise it's just more substrate. I think coir encourages the casing to get fully colonized, especially when it is used as a major ingredient. Uncased substrates can have great yields, but I want to either go uncased, or have a properly performing casing layer. I don't like having nutrition in something that has a role as a contaminant barrier. I also believe that the best pinning is created by introducing every trigger possible as close together as possible. Running out of food to colonize is a big trigger. Maybe adding a small amount of food won't affect that, but I still like having everything hit it at once.

I tried to make it very clear how much much of that is simple opinion. There's not a lot of empirical data in cubensis growing because the dominant culture prefers other drugs (I bet tobacco farmers don't have trouble finding government supported research that is useful to them). Our experiments are done in closets and bedrooms scattered around the world. Aside from on boards like this, there is not even the slightest amount of information sharing between each independent researcher. Maybe we can figure out a safe way to exchange detailed data and compile it into a large enough dataset to be useful, but until then we have to settle for getting as many opinions as possible, evaluating the strength of each argument, and weighting them for perceived reliability of the poster. Rambling aside, we can't objectively know how those casings compare with any degree of certainty, so the only truly wrong statement is the one that goes "----- is undoubtedly the best."

But don't listen to the LC people - they don't know jack.


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Check out my first ever TEK!
Shroom capsules with the Cap-M-Quik (pics)

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Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Mushroom-Hut Liquid Cultures   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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