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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Reality and Imagination [Re: wyldeman007]
    #8622324 - 07/11/08 03:17 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Your ontological arguments are so banal at this point, can you please provide some evidence, or do you only peddle circular logic??:thumbup::thumbup:

:sorry:


--------------------

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Offlineburgatory
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Re: Reality and Imagination [Re: wyldeman007]
    #8622827 - 07/11/08 05:32 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

wyldeman007 said:

This doesn't:

Quote:

burgatory said:
There are no galaxies, no space, no laws of physics, all that is just carrying on from a mode of thought. Thought is a kind of hysteria. There's nothing there to find out about, we just apply frameworks to nothing at all and try and make it meet up, but all we're doing is expanding a framework, it's got nothing to do with what we're looking at. You can't touch reality because it isn't there. Do you realise how irrational it would be for there to be anything at all?





The information gathered by your eyes, nose, tongue, ears and skin are brought to the brain as a sensation. Step two your brain organizes this information, that's called perception. Step 3 the information now perceived is realized by you, this is what we call conception. You have it backwards my dear fellow, the bag of tricks is in your mind, not outside your sensory organs. Discrepancies in your perceptions of the world help you to conceive what is real and what is imagined.

burgatory, Chronic777...

If you think that the human nervous system runs retro-active to common understanding please explain your findings, I'm interested.

Your ontological arguments are so banal at this point, can you please provide some evidence, or do you only peddle circular logic?? I'm sorry to be blunt but frankly I'm so sick of this anti-naturalistic argument. If it makes you smile though let's play ball!




There's no difference between your sensory organs and your brain, or your mind, therefore what you're perceiving is part of your brain, part of your mind. There are no dualities, no "next phase" of interpretation, it's all happening at once as one thing.

There's no difference between what's real and what's imagined. Culture brings us all to have similiar delusions through conditioning, so we  appear to be convinced we are talking to people, that we share a reality. You can look at something which you call the "outside world" and say "this is a CD" it is "circular", it reflects light, I can predict it will bounce when I drop it, therefore this CD is real. But all you've done is pick up a circular reflective thing and murmured nonsense about it. Likewise with anything we do, like physics, science, and what not. You can say our science is right because it makes predictions that are correct, cures diseases and what not, but it's just a framework of its own, it's not what's there. You invented the disease when you categorized it, you invented its components through scrutiny, you cured it by adding different components, all you did was modify concepts, the disease was never there separate from what was going on, the cure is just a cure for the concept, which is enough.

All you can form are "territory maps", and they never have anything to do with what's really going on. It's absurd to think so.

Imagine there was a theatre production, and during the theatre production, there was initially some acting which followed the script and everything was alright, but then the actors did something very strange, they started acting insane under the guise of something called "Reason", and started to pick apart the behaviours of fellow actors and categorise them, attempt to find where the costumes came from, started asking why other actors were saying the lines they'd learnt. Meanwhile, the crowd can only stare in disbelief. It was only supposed to be a show, completed and intact from the start, being self-explantory, the stage having the simple explanation that it was a stage, it wasn't REALLY there... these things weren't REALLY happening...


--------------------

Wherever the hero may wander, whatever he may do, he is ever in the presence of his own essence — for he has the perfected eye to see. There is no separateness. Thus, just as the way of social participation may lead in the end to a realization of the All in the individual, so that of exile brings the hero to the Self in all.

joseph campbell


For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

jesus

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Offlinewyldeman007
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Re: Reality and Imagination [Re: burgatory]
    #8623237 - 07/11/08 07:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

burgatory said:
There's no difference between your sensory organs and your brain, or your mind, therefore what you're perceiving is part of your brain, part of your mind.


You don't seem to know or care that much about anatomy...

Quote:


There are no dualities, no "next phase" of interpretation, it's all happening at once as one thing.




You lack a basic insight of neuropsychology, a quick trip to wikipedia can cure that.


Quote:


There's no difference between what's real and what's imagined.



Ah, the core of your argument, very bold indeed, you are an epistemological solipsist. You will find many arguments against what you believe.

Firstly, people die, in fact many well known solipsists have in the past. If you die one day, your theory is false and must be scrapped.

Point two is the application of past events, learning new information would be impossible if your mind was the only thing to ever exist.

Another thing still, why would you manifest pain and suffering into this world? If you have absolute authority on what exists, why all the toxicity?

You've just thrown out morality you know! If all that exists is in your imagination, there's no reason to be kind to one another it's all a simple illusion. Essentially spirituality is meaningless according to you!

Why is language practical? Linguistic vocal communication is essential for mutual interactions with other beings. If all that exists is your mind, why bother creating language?

I assume you have a limited talents, if you created Jimi Hendrix why can't you play like him, if you manifested E.A. Poe why are you unable to write like him? If everything is imagined why can't you at least imitate Einsteins intellect?

If you imply that you have no control over this imaginative reality, that it is an unconscious entity of yourself you'll find that it behaves in the same way as the universe that I live in. When yo die will the entire universe cease to exist???

Your argument is unfalsifiable therefore garbage, why pursue anything at all if you already have all the answers? I don't like to hold myself up in that sort of mental road block.

Finally what are you accomplishing/hoping to accomplish with this mindset?

You can come back at me with any question(s) you want.


--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Reality and Imagination [Re: wyldeman007]
    #8623243 - 07/11/08 07:44 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

How do you differentiate the two?



Reality is a myth.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Offlinewyldeman007
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Re: Reality and Imagination [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8623246 - 07/11/08 07:45 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

So when you die the universe ends right? Convince me!


--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins

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OfflineTheEyeIsWatching
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Re: Reality and Imagination [Re: Droz]
    #8623254 - 07/11/08 07:48 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Reality and Imagination [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8624535 - 07/12/08 07:52 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Quote:

How do you differentiate the two?



Reality is a myth.




Word


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Reality and Imagination [Re: Droz]
    #8633219 - 07/14/08 12:10 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

For us, perception and interaction is all that remains of reality. The interaction with it is not always correlated to our direct evaluated perception, so I differ.
The perception of reality and imaginations happens in the exact same brain areas.
So, it's interconnected for us to have a 'better' conscious influence on our future, which will be and is present in our reality.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (07/14/08 12:17 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Reality and Imagination [Re: Droz]
    #8636932 - 07/15/08 08:55 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Droz said:
How do you differentiate the two?

Do we imagine reality?

Is it all inside your head?

Imagine this.

Peace,
Droz




While there is no way to be absolutely sure I  find that others agree with me and experience a similar "reality" but my imagination is not experienced by my friends.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Reality and Imagination [Re: Icelander]
    #8638290 - 07/15/08 02:56 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

While there is no way to be absolutely sure I  find that others agree with me and experience a similar "reality" but my imagination is not experienced by my friends.




That seems to be the only difference between 'hard facts' and conjecture... how many people agree with you.  It always must come down to a personal judgment call.  If every single person around me perceives the presence of a God, and I don't share that experience, I'd probably trust my own experience anyway.  The reverse is probably true too.  My experience is mine alone; it is the most pristine, direct information available and I do value it at least a touch more than the contentions and opinions I receive from others.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Reality and Imagination [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8638311 - 07/15/08 02:59 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Would you feel the same if 10 people saw someone in a window with a gun pointing at you yelling for you to get down but you couldn't see it?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Reality and Imagination [Re: Icelander]
    #8638316 - 07/15/08 03:00 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I think I would duck first & express philosophical differences later.  :wink:

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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Reality and Imagination [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8638321 - 07/15/08 03:01 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I do value it at least a touch more than the contentions and opinions I receive from others.

Perhaps it has less to do with seeing something that was previously not there, and more to do with seeing what is there as an expression of divinity.


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Reality and Imagination [Re: Veritas]
    #8638334 - 07/15/08 03:03 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
I think I would duck first & express philosophical differences later.  :wink:




:yesnod:


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Reality and Imagination [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8638335 - 07/15/08 03:04 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Ahh, yes, the good ol' "God exists, and the proof is in everything that exists! God is water, God is earth, God is air, God is fire, God is chocolate chip cookies!  Look around, it's obvious that God exists!"  :lol:

Occam would disapprove.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Reality and Imagination [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8638344 - 07/15/08 03:05 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

backfromthedead said:
I do value it at least a touch more than the contentions and opinions I receive from others.

Perhaps it has less to do with seeing something that was previously not there, and more to do with seeing what is there as an expression of divinity.




What is this divinity that you speak of?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Reality and Imagination [Re: Icelander]
    #8638378 - 07/15/08 03:12 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

  1.  The state or quality of being divine.
  2.
        1. Divinity The godhead; God. Used with the.
        2. A deity, such as a god or goddess.
  3. Godlike character.
  4. Theology.
  5. A soft white candy, usually containing nuts.





I'm thinking:

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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Reality and Imagination [Re: Veritas]
    #8638410 - 07/15/08 03:16 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Ahh, yes, the good ol' "God exists, and the proof is in everything that exists! God is water, God is earth, God is air, God is fire, God is chocolate chip cookies!  Look around, it's obvious that God exists!"  :lol:

Occam would disapprove.




Come the fuck on.  Who defined God for you, ma'am...

Fuck Occam and his razor.:tongue2:


--------------------

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Reality and Imagination [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8638448 - 07/15/08 03:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Who defined God for you, ma'am...





Well, many have tried to define their concept of God for me, but none of it made it past my Bullshit Detector.  :shrug:

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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Reality and Imagination [Re: Veritas]
    #8638489 - 07/15/08 03:31 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Your Bullshit Detector Vrooms, if I do say so, ma'am...:grin:

Why is it that when another sees God you are there to tell them it does not exist...??  Interesting.


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