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OfflineDjoum
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The Role of Psychedelics in Aligning the Self
    #8605053 - 07/07/08 05:40 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Daytripper23:
Quote:

if you think it is appropriate, I would be interested to know how psychedelics play into your philosophy.




The Role of Psychedelics in Aligning the Self
Two Categories of Ego

I believe that ego loss, which in this culture can be achieved most easily through psychedelics, provides an opportunity to develop one’s self-referential consciousness. Self-referential consciousness can even perhaps be deemed "ego-loss+deliberate self-examination".

I believe self-referential consciousness can improve the ego-self, bringing us closer to the life we need to lead to develop ourselves in a holistic fashion, aligning ego-mind, body and spirit-mind. Depending on our level of spiritual maturity, our self-referential consciousness will be directed towards different parts of our self. IMO the culmination of this growth is oneness, the deliberate merging of self with the universe. And then, to show others how to do it.

Aligning the self is done by resolving contradictions on all levels of consciousness. Hexagraphic logic exercises serve this purpose, and can easily be done 'on the fly' during a trip.

The level of consciousness most accessible for resolution depends on your level of growth. Once a certain level of resolution is reached, this growth increases exponentially. It can in many cases be measured by the month, week or even day if you are willing to adjust your behaviour in line with what you learn. In most cases it is best to adjust behaviour after necessitation, once you have come down (see bottom of this post).

I differentiate between two kinds of ego loss – ‘forced’ and ‘universal’ (I am sure there are better names… anyone?). These categories shape the psychonaut’s progression in their psychedelic exploration.

The first step is to develop the ego mind by resolving contradictions, and living with truth and integrity.

Forced ego loss is activated almost entirely by substances themselves, and anyone can get there, although it is often traumatic (if only briefly). I reached ‘forced ego loss’ for the first time on eight tabs. The come down is usually heavy and draining, and the peak ends because the ego mind decides it wants to return to reality. When good trips turn bad (assuming controlled circumstances) my observation is that this usually happens because the individual decides they have ‘had enough’. This is what you get when you blast through a doorway!

The individual undergoing forced ego loss will be able to exercise self-referential consciousness, but should probably keep it to a pragmatic level given the manner in which the intellect becomes restricted during this level of ego loss. It seems to me that people who first start taking psychedelics begin their journey by looking at contradictions in their lives. As they learn, they have an opportunity to adjust their behaviour towards their highest ideals. They might be inclined to leave a troubled relationship, reconcile with their parents, change their studies, stop stealing gerbils, or whatever.

I have read many times that real spiritual growth can only occur when an individual acts in accordance with their highest ideals. For Leary and Anton-Wilson this involves stabilising the first four emotional circuits. In Yoga this is a prerequisite for raising the kundalini through the chakras. Our ideals provide a blueprint for our lives, and freely choosing to adhere to them through behaviour is where we exercise free choice, thus developing our ego in relation to the intellect.

Forced ego loss provides the individual with a golden opportunity to begin this work. Every time the ego is temporarily lost, we have the opportunity to rebirth ourselves in the circumstances and behavioural patterns that we choose. When I trip, I pay strong attention to my behaviour in the days after it. Am I living up to the ideal I have set for myself?

Hexagraphic logic provides an opportunity to resolve contradictions in life based on either/or choices and situations, as well as cultural contradictions.

It is a natural progression for substance-invoked ego loss, combined with study and intent, to give birth to the opportunity for ‘universal’ ego loss. I call it this because it allows the conscious being to transcend the self-other distinction, effectively realising (in a practical and intellectual sense) the inherent oneness of all things. I see this oneness as being governed by the quantum rule of non-locality.

Universal ego loss does not lead directly to merging with the universe. But it is experienced when you have grown yourself to the point that you are ready to. You are familiar with ego loss, and to some extent, are able to navigate it. Your strength, morality and courage mean you no longer experience bad trips except in exceptional situations.

An incredibly powerful trip can be reached on a small-medium quantity of substance. You are no longer blasting yourself through the portal; the substance provides the key, but you provide the power and knowledge to use it. Your consciousness is no longer forced, it surfs on a powerful surge of energy – energy you have built for yourself. You can travel the path the ego mind has learnt to block. If you follow the path to its conclusion, reconciling blockages (contradictions which are experienced as dense areas) on the way, you will reach the point of merging with the universe – hence the name 'universal ego loss'.

My interpretation of hexagraphic logic derived from searching for ways to resolve these blockages at this spiritual level. I apply it at any point where I feel that my progress is blocked, using my intuition to decide what trinity/ies  I need to reconcile.

Ego-loss (psychedelic or otherwise) opens you to the possibility of spiritually self-referential consciousness, and you can begin to unlock knowledge of the base fabric of the cosmos. And if you do it right, you surf straight out of the illusive restrictions of space time, to experience ultimate oneness. This can happen spontaneously, or it can happen with practice. Ideally, the spontaneous mystical experiences in one’s early tripping career provide the motivation to train one’s self towards it through techniques such as yoga, meditation, ritual, or whatever mystical tradition you wish.

Once the journey feels like it has ended, I take as many notes as I think I need, and then analyse this using the intellect. Ralph Metzner called this second step 'necessitation', and it is crucial to ensuring that you do not go down a path of fallacy. Compare what you believe you learnt to what you are sure of in the pragmatic world, and see if you can reconcile them. This is the final step in a day-long cycle of reconciling the true self and the ego… Until next time you journey and the cycle begins again ;-)



A final note. Those who wish to develop their spiritual self-referential consciousness need to allow more time for their trips. Additionally, it is important to close your chakras after every transcendental trip. Visualise them ‘powering down’, from the crown to the root, and their excess energy travelling down into the earth through your feet. Ego loss activates these energy systems, and leaving them on is severely draining of your vitality.

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: The Role of Psychedelics in Aligning the Self [Re: Djoum]
    #8605170 - 07/07/08 06:10 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Djoum said:

IMO the culmination of this growth is oneness, the deliberate merging of self with the universe.




We are all made of stuff that comes from the universe.

Why would we need to merge even more with it?

Quote:

And then, to show others how to do it.




This is a slippery slope.

Nobody likes to be told what to do.

Quote:

Additionally, it is important to close your chakras after every transcendental trip. Visualise them ‘powering down’, from the crown to the root, and their excess energy travelling down into the earth through your feet. Ego loss activates these energy systems, and leaving them on is severely draining of your vitality.




You are aware that chacras don't really exist... aren't you?

:wink:

I agree with this sentament though.

People must remember to come down after a trip... instead of spending the next year or so... pretending they know everything and are one with the universe.

It is clear that you have been studying what people have to say about tripping... and that is cool.

Just don't take all this stuff too literally.

And take your own advice... remember to come down.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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OfflineDjoum
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Re: The Role of Psychedelics in Aligning the Self [Re: Rose]
    #8605382 - 07/07/08 06:51 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Cervantes said:

Quote:

”We are all made of stuff that comes from the universe. Why would we need to merge even more with it?”




There is an important distinction between being a product of the universe, and consciously merging with it. Perhaps it does not appeal to you. But it has appealed to many individuals throughout history.

Why would we need to merge even more with it? A few reasons. Firstly, the way humanity sees itself in relation to the world is reflected in our culture. And I think our culture can be brought more into harmony with itself if we bring ourselves more into harmony with the world and the universe. I do not believe that humans have reached our pinnacle. Maybe merging more with the universe will benefit us on many levels. The only way to find out is to try.

Second, merging with the universe, transcending the physical world, is the essential goal of mystic schools throughout the world, including gnosticism, Buddhism, yoga and tantra. There is a fundamental drive in humanity towards this aim. Why not pursue it to see what the results may be? If nothing else, it will be an 'enlightening' experience :wink:

Thirdly, it may be that empirical science can be supplemented through spiritual science. This is the basis of the anthroposophical society, which gets government funding in the US! Anthroposophy suggests that the way to do so is to transcend the self through trance. To transcend the ego-self is to merge 'even further' with the universe.

So I feel I have a reasonable basis for pursuing this path.

Quote:

“You are aware that chacras don't really exist... aren't you?’




I think if you are discussing a subjective experience, and the notion of a chakra system is useful in an operational sense, it is useful to give them ontological status even though empirical science has not detected them. But if a different model works well for you, then of course, by all means use that one.

Call them the centres of the human meridian system if you like, or a product of the endocrine system. I really don’t mind. I will continue to use the term Chakra because even those who don’t believe they exist have a good idea of what the term refers to.

I think the psychedelic experience is only useful if you can integrate what you learn during it. Otherwise it is simply hardcore hedonism. Necessitation is a critical safety net to avoid 'never coming down'.

As Robert Anton Wilson said, you take a psychedelic, you try to improve your reality map by expanding it, then you wait and see if it works with your life. If it does, you might want to adopt that reality map. If not, you will soon find out because it will create all sorts of contradictions in every day life.


Quote:

“This is a slippery slope. Nobody likes to be told what to do.”




I think that you are confusing authoritarianism with the sharing of information. The transmission of information in the public and private domain is the manner in which people are shown how to do things. They have the right to exercise free will as to whether or not they use that information, and to judge the validity for themselves.

Free will is thus preserved as I am not using psychological or physical manipulative force.

I am not saying to go out and force information down people’s throats, but as Timothy Leary said, it is only fair to share your experiences in this as yet unexplored terrain. Sharing information is not the same as taking an authoritarian approach to the actions of others. And if noone shared their experiences of the world, the would BE no philosophy, except for the dusty Victorian kind which occupies itself with external definitions.

I have read, I have learnt for myself, and I transmit. This is not a slippery slope.

Mentors throughout history have had the same philosophy. Buddha and Socrates spring immediately to mind. To maintain that my argument is a slippery slope, you will need to bite the bullet and argue that noone liked Socrates and Buddha telling them what to do.

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: The Role of Psychedelics in Aligning the Self [Re: Djoum]
    #8605469 - 07/07/08 07:09 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Djoum said:

Merging with the universe, transcending the physical world, is the essential goal of mystic schools throughout the world, including gnosticism, Buddhism, yoga and tantra. There is a fundamental drive in humanity towards this aim. Why not pursue it to see what the results may be?




You are mistaking a metaphor about life and death for something greater and more meaningful.

All humans trancend life when they die... and they once again merge with the universe.

That is all we are talking about.

These 'Mystic' schools are just explaining life, in an old-school way.

To practice living is to practice dying.

Quote:

If nothing else, it will be an 'enlightening' experience :wink:




To persue enlightenment is a common goal among humans. Most humans never reach it. The humans who do reach enlightenment, eventually come down from their trip.

Living breathing enlightened people are a myth.

But nothing wrong with working towards it.

Quote:


So I feel I have a reasonable basis for pursuing this path.





Indeed you do. I do not recall telling you otherwise.

Quote:


I am not saying to go out and force information down people’s throats, but as Timothy Leary said, it is only fair to share your experiences in this as yet unexplored terrain.




The subject has since been explored.

Quote:


Mentors throughout history have had the same philosophy. Buddha and Socrates spring immediately to mind. To maintain that my argument is a slippery slope, you will need to bite the bullet and argue that noone liked Socrates and Buddha telling them what to do.




You misunderstand... yet again...


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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OfflineDjoum
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Re: The Role of Psychedelics in Aligning the Self [Re: Rose]
    #8605614 - 07/07/08 07:43 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I will not respond to hinted arguments. Please explain how 'this subject has since been explored', or why I 'misunderstand... yet again...'

"All the mystic schools are simply explaining life and death in an old school way" completely misses the point and betrays your lack of knowledge about this.

Tantra is aimed at raising kundalini energy to the crown chakra, creating a merging with the universe. Buddhist mysticism aims at creating an enlightened state through emptying the mind.

No, Cervantes, it is hierarchical religious orthodoxy that explains life and death in an 'old school way'. Gnosticism aims at reconciling existence in the universe through  knowledge of the ego self.

The difference between mysticism and hierarchical religious orthodoxy is that mysticism gives you experimental tools to investigate the universe for yourself, while religious orthodoxy discourages such experimentation.

I feel that you are forsaking complexity in the name of over simplification. As a result, your arguments sound glib. You have not written a single paragraph or extended argument, hoping that your brief statements will speak for themselves. I think that your arguments would be much stronger if you respectfully made yourself clear.

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: The Role of Psychedelics in Aligning the Self [Re: Djoum]
    #8605683 - 07/07/08 08:04 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Djoum said:
I will not respond to hinted arguments. Please explain how 'this subject has since been explored', or why I 'misunderstand... yet again...'




You just responded to say you would not respond... then you went on to explain. :shrug:

Ok...

Leary was on the forefront of psychedelic study... and if you are a psych major, I imagine you already know that.

He said what he did a long time ago... hell he died over a decade ago. Plenty of time has passed. The psychedelic experience is no longer new nor is it shocking. It has been discussed and studied.

You 'misunderstood' when you used the classic argument: "If you believe 'X' then you must also believe 'Y' and 'Z'."

Please review our prior posts for further clarification.



Quote:


"All the mystic schools are simply explaining life and death in an old school way" completely misses the point and betrays your lack of knowledge about this.




Bullshit.



Quote:


I feel that you are forsaking complexity in the name of over simplification. As a result, your arguments sound glib. You have not written a single paragraph or extended argument, hoping that your brief statements will speak for themselves. I think that your arguments would be much stronger if you respectfully made yourself clear.




Would it help if I said "I believe you are forsaking simplification in the name of complexity"?

Stick around a while... I've been known to write long posts from time to time.

But I'll placate you... a bit.

I believe there is an interesting connection between what Buddhists practice, and what many people experience during a trip.

I believe aiming for a Leary-esque trip is worth doing. It is an experience worth having and it is SAFER than what many people do while under the influence.

I believe whenever you start talking about universal truths, people are going to take exception.

Oh, and I believe chacras are not real... but meditation never killed anybody.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Edited by Rose (07/07/08 08:11 PM)

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: The Role of Psychedelics in Aligning the Self [Re: Rose]
    #8606414 - 07/07/08 10:47 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Oh, and I believe chacras are not real... but meditation never killed anybody.




Well.....    Maybe one.....



:tongue:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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OfflineDjoum
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Re: The Role of Psychedelics in Aligning the Self [Re: Rose]
    #8606463 - 07/07/08 11:00 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Cervantes:
Quote:

"He said what he did a long time ago... hell he died over a decade ago. Plenty of time has passed. The psychedelic experience is no longer new nor is it shocking. It has been discussed and studied."




Timothy Leary was simply the person who came into my head when I replied. Terrence McKenna said much the same thing, he died not so long ago. In the late 1990s, he said that "at the moment we are really just charting the broad territory." I heard this on a lecture that can be found at the Pscyhedelic Salon podcast page, I think it was the Mckenna and Metzner set of lectures.

So there is nothing new to report? We know everything about psychedelics? Show me a completed science of psychedelia and I will concede this point. Until then, I will continue to discuss and study an experience which I believe has a lot more to offer humanity than what we have gained so far.

I am not talking about universal truths in the sense I feel you have interpreted it. I am suggesting that ego loss can be used to investigate the fundamental laws of the universe. These laws are what I mean by 'truths', and they are 'laws' in the same sense as those of the natural sciences, physics, and any other discipline. It is just that these laws pertain to the cosmos. Quantum physics is another example of 'universal truth' in the sense I am using it. This is the sense in which I am using 'universal truths' and 'universal ego loss'.

'Universal truths' have also been applied in other senses, which I am not concerned with here.

(edit - addition) - Now I see your point. Let the record stand that I did not mean to go out and preach, ramming 'truth' down people's throats, but to help those who ask for it, in the same way that a teacher does.

As I said, I invite everyone to suggest a better word than 'universal'.

Edited by Djoum (07/08/08 12:03 AM)

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: The Role of Psychedelics in Aligning the Self [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #8606817 - 07/08/08 01:29 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
Quote:

Cervantes said:
Oh, and I believe chacras are not real... but meditation never killed anybody.




Well.....    Maybe one.....



:tongue:


>^;;^<




You rock my world!


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: The Role of Psychedelics in Aligning the Self [Re: Rose]
    #8607036 - 07/08/08 04:20 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

i think people can certainly benefit from psychedelics but
the self is not like a spinal column requiring (chiropractic) alignment -
it is far more like a pizza, and it is never running out of cheese or anchovies.

the linear approach is very 19th century christian IMO.
anything round is better.

for now it seems to me that the personal benefits from psychedelic can be shared like morality and art, by action, doing your own thing and without institution or formality.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Re: The Role of Psychedelics in Aligning the Self [Re: Rose]
    #8607080 - 07/08/08 05:11 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

This is very good!

Ego loss I is the ONLY solution to the problem of life, which is created by culture in the first place and isn't a problem in itself. The ego and cultural imprint are the creators of not only all apparent 'evil' but all philosophical problems as well.

It merely takes realisation and nothing else to undo the problem. However, the imprint and ego can be so ingrained that insanity may result when one reverts to nothing. Enlightenment is nothing special, it is only in contrast to the cultural norm that it seems special. In some strange terms, we are SUPPOSED to be enlightened - the full realisation of your character IS the state of nothing. Anything else is malfunctioning, insanity.

I don't think there should be any reconciling, I think the ego should be  completely destroyed with all means possible.

Under the influence of the ego, especially in the cases of modern society where the imprint leads individuals nowhere but into a hysteria, the organism doesn't even feel real pain, the senses are numbed, perception is skewed, and the emotions are flattened; depressed. A person with an ego is by my definition not even alive. Someone has a signature around here that states "you are all just puppets" - that's a perfect description. Egos gone too far are twisted puppets being contorted as they are dragged to another horrid scene.


--------------------

Wherever the hero may wander, whatever he may do, he is ever in the presence of his own essence — for he has the perfected eye to see. There is no separateness. Thus, just as the way of social participation may lead in the end to a realization of the All in the individual, so that of exile brings the hero to the Self in all.

joseph campbell


For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

jesus

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Re: The Role of Psychedelics in Aligning the Self [Re: burgatory]
    #8607187 - 07/08/08 06:20 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

life is not a problem
and if it were one
a single solution is not something i am interested in


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Re: The Role of Psychedelics in Aligning the Self [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8607427 - 07/08/08 08:43 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Djoum, this is all very intriguing to me, thanks for sharing. I was beginning to wonder if my concept of trinity was somehow unique. Its great to see that others have not only conceptualized this, but also applied it. That said, it should go without saying that I can't just take what you have said in faith, but must test these applications myself through a tentative and critical approach.

Concerning Kundalini yoga, this is another significant issue that has been weighing on me.

I have been informally incorporating lower chakra work into my meditation for a little while now, and at first made a lot of progress. The whole thing, however subjective it is, has amazed me. The first time I was pseudo-meditating during a trip, to some Radiohead (Kid A) and almost immediately, my third eye opened. Since then I read up a bit, and sporatically began working on my chakras.

On two occasions, once waking in the middle of the night, and once in my normal mediation routine, I felt my Kundalini rising. Both times I brought it up to the back of my neck, and both times I decided to break it off, because I read that this is something you need to be prepared for. I did not feel prepared

Now that I think of it though, compared to my usual approach, how would this be any different if I just let it happen? Most of my enlightening trips were not easy, the process has always characteristically been like bursting through a wall. I was never prepared for what was on the other side.

Since this happened(it was a while ago now actually), I believe I may have repressed something, I am not sure. My Chakra work is much less effective, all I can seem to at all manipulate now is my root. But I should also admit that having been discouraged with this kind of meditation, I have not been putting nearly as much effort into it, and so this surely plays a role.  I am still amazed by the whole yoga thing, and still practice, but I haven't been applying as much force to break through. And for that matter, I have not been dosing nearly as much, or as heroically as I used to.

Djoum, any information you've got, Id love to hear.

Now that I think of it, might be better if you pm me.

Edited by daytripper23 (07/08/08 10:46 AM)

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Re: The Role of Psychedelics in Aligning the Self [Re: Rose]
    #8607845 - 07/08/08 11:44 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
People must remember to come down after a trip... instead of spending the next year or so... pretending they know everything and are one with the universe.




So much for the slippery slope, eh? :grin:

I don't like either option you allude to. My preference is to integrate the perspective gained from my experiences, as well as aspects of the experience themselves, into my day-to-day life. I've had nothing but positive repercussions of doing so, and I've evolved as an individual to a great extent as a result. This is the only moment in which I exist, and I'm quite intent on experiencing it to the depths of which it can be experienced, and to develop the most reflective sense of what is occurring as I am capable of. The changes that have resulted from within myself and, consequently, the circumstances of my life, have been noticeable, profound, and to be enjoyed. :smile:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Role of Psychedelics in Aligning the Self [Re: Rose]
    #8607886 - 07/08/08 11:54 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
To persue enlightenment is a common goal among humans. Most humans never reach it. The humans who do reach enlightenment, eventually come down from their trip.




Roughly seven billion people on this planet right now, and you are making declarative statements regarding their inner experiences? Who made you the authoritative source on billions of people?
:sherlock:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: The Role of Psychedelics in Aligning the Self [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8607985 - 07/08/08 12:20 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

he is not an expert, but he is rational and rigorous in that discipline.
very good linear projections.
my guess is that enlightenment involves some of that mixed with a good measure of non-linear associative integration.

for the non-linear associative integration psychedelics provide both orientation and disorientation.

getting the balance right is an ongoing business, not a one-shot, nor a done deal, nobody said it was going to be easy.


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Re: The Role of Psychedelics in Aligning the Self [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8608365 - 07/08/08 02:00 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

RGV gets me.

There are enough people here preaching the 'Truth'.

I overcompensate... by preaching reality.

FG, you are correct. Integration is key.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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