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Sadam H.. Good or Bad?
    #860217 -

Just what is it about this guy that makes him soo bad?

Everything I know of the man as a leader in his country is good. He has been a great leader in Iraq by building roads, hospitals, schools, giving rights to citizens, built an econemy and developed agricultural programs and reduced poverty and hunger.
All in all he has been verry good for his people.

Ok so he attacks some countries in the name of makeing war, So does the US.
So he wants to have weapons of mass destruction, So does the US.
So he is developeing some verry bad things, The US already has these things, so do the Koreans and all of our other "enemies". Im sure Russia, China, India, Jappan and all other countries have these things yet were not targeting them. Why?


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GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG             

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: GabbaDj]
    #860506 -

In short, he wants us dead.

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: puscle]
    #860575 -

Thats not true... Their has been no declaration by Iraq or Sadam saying that he wants to wage war against us, nor does he want to attack us and he has never directed his people to kill Americans except for in times of war when we were the first to strike...

Im beginning to think that this thing with Iraq is more a personal oil business thing gone wrong between the Bush family and Sadam than a real concern with national security...


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GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG             

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: GabbaDj]
    #860674 -

just the fact that you ask that question makes me question wether or not i should even take you seriously


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

Edited by Innvertigo (09/03/02 03:30 AM)

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #860680 -

The fact that you have no answer makes me wonder....


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GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG             

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: GabbaDj]
    #860850 -

Basically because he's sitting on an awful lot of oil that the US wants and he won't follow our orders anymore.

The funny thing is that 15 years ago Bush and Reagan would have agreed that he was a wonderful leader - Saddam was their best buddy.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: GabbaDj]
    #860854 -

"Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of fear -- kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor -- with the cry of grave national emergency. Always there has been some terrible evil ... to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it by furnishing the exorbitant funds demanded. Yet, in retrospect, these disasters seem never to have happened, seem never to have been quite real."
- General Douglas MacArthur, speaking of large Pentagon budgets, 1957

Edited by Evolving (09/03/02 05:03 AM)

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: GabbaDj]
    #860986 -

Saddam Hussein is no more evil than the US. So 'bad' I guess.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: GabbaDj]
    #861581 -

The Bush's used to be business partners of Hussein's...according to Sherman Skolnick, anyway.

He talks about it here

Actually, there's alot of articles on his website that mention it, so look around...


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Janet Reno, if I do not go to jail, I will be in Orlando August 15 and you are not going to be elected to any damn thing. Nobody should fear our Government.
- James Traficant

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: GabbaDj]
    #861865 -

****The fact that you have no answer makes me wonder****

Which answer would you like me to give?

Funding of terrorists..proven
Murdering his own people..proven
Missle attacks on innocent isreali's..proven
Condoning the Raping and murdering of Kuwaities...proven
Offering 25K per family who homocide bombs isreali and/or american people...proven

you're sounding like these little Generation Y kids...use your head


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #862159 -

Well, let's look at the american government:

Funding of terrorists..proven
Missle attacks on innocent Afghani's..proven
Condoning the murdering of Iraqis, Afghanis, vietnamese, etc...proven
American soldiers can easily make more than 25k a year...

Hussein isn't the worst guy out there. Not by a long shot, but he's in a key position for the US money-wise.

He's mistreating his citizens? Well, the solution is obviously to blow them all to kingdom come. Are we trying to teach him not to mistreat them, or how to mistreat them?


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: Phluck]
    #862215 -

yeah, but phluck, Dubya says we're the GOOD GUYS. and, c'mon, he's the president of the United States of America, the best damn country in the whole goddamn world. We're GOD'S country. and really, would the president ever LIE to us?


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Santa Claus ain't legal-- and he's around.

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: GabbaDj]
    #862734 -

The best thing was a TV reportage about how Saddam likes nature and fishing. He went to the riverside, pulled out a hand grenade and threw it in the water!
He's a dictator. His priority is staying in power not wellbeing of his people. I read about an arab journalist that was present when he personally ordered excecution of death penalty for his opponents that betrayed him. After the story was published a demanti came from iraqui authorities that the article was wrong. They were not punished for betraying Saddam but for thinking about betrayal.  :smile:

I don't know why USA don't like him anymore. He could be an important allie against ICC, banning of land mines, Kyotto agreement and similar useless things.  :grin: 

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: Phluck]
    #864091 -

****Funding of terrorists..proven****

To kill innocent people...i don't think so

****Missle attacks on innocent Afghani's..proven****

give me one example where innocent afgans were directly targeted as an objective

****Condoning the murdering of Iraqis, Afghanis, vietnamese, etc...proven*****

War is war i guess..but you forget one thing..we don't target innocent people..the cowards do

****American soldiers can easily make more than 25k a year...***

so all soldiers are terrorists? Typical...they're the ones who protect you because there are too many like you who would rather suckle off the freedom that is provided by them...


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #864278 -

give me one example where innocent afgans were directly targeted as an objective

Yep, just before those cluster bombs and daisy cutters were dropped from 15,000 feet the US carried out interviews of everyone on the ground to ensure they were members of Osama's group.

War is war i guess..but you forget one thing..we don't target innocent people..the cowards do

Well there's 600,000 iraqi kids under 5 lying slaughtered in Iraq. With 5000 more dying every month thanks to your sanctions. What is their guilt? Or are they guilty for being born?

oh, and if we're talking about cowards lets talk about US pilots making two passes to bomb a goatherder in a deserted valley. They sound like real studs...

"Six other children died not far away on January 25, last year. An American missile hit Al Jumohria, a street in a poor residential area. Sixty-three people were injured, a number of them badly burned. "Collateral damage," said the Department of Defence in Washington. Britain and the United States are still bombing Iraq almost every day: it is the longest Anglo-American bombing campaign since the second world war, yet, with honourable exceptions, very little appears about it in the British media. Conducted under the cover of "no fly zones", which have no basis in international law, the aircraft, according to Tony Blair, are "performing vital humanitarian tasks". The ministry of defence in London has a line about "taking robust action to protect pilots" from Iraqi attacks - yet an internal UN Security Sector report says that, in one five-month period, 41 per cent of the victims were civilians in civilian targets: villages, fishing jetties, farmland and vast, treeless valleys where sheep graze. A shepherd, his father, his four children and his sheep were killed by a British or American aircraft, which made two passes at them. I stood in the cemetery where the children are buried and their mother shouted, "I want to speak to the pilot who did this"

http://pilger.carlton.com/print/19197


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #864319 -

Wow, I wish I'd read your reply before I was at the library today. I read a quote by some US general during the second world war. He was talking about how this was war against the Japanese, not just their army, but the citizens as well.

I did, however, write down this quote.
"A dream came true last week for US army aviators; they got their chance to loose avalanches of fire bombs on Tokyo and Nogoya, and they proved that properly kindled, Japanese cities burn like autumn leaves." -Time, March 1945

Face it, bombing innocent civillians isn't just for the "cowards". The US and other countries have been using it as a demoralizing tactic since the second world war.

President Reagan later orchestrated bombings in Libya. Many, many civillians were killed.

"We weren't out to kill anybody." -Reagan

So what were the bombs for?


Then in Iraq, bombs were dropped all over Bagdhad. Did innocent civillians die? You betcha, about 100,000 of them.

Just because the US government says they aren't out to kill civilians, or even if they aren't trying directly to kill civilians, they know it's going to happen. When you drop bombs in the middle of a city, whether they're on a weapons factory, or a nursery school, it doesn't matter, even YOU would be able to tell me that innocent civillians are going to die.

When it comes down to it, what's the difference between killing civillians, and stating that as your intent, and killing civillians, and then saying you didn't mean to? Isn't it really just the exact same crime?

Don't try and tell me the US isn't targeting innocent people. Sure, they aren't going to go out and tell the media "Well, we're doing a bang up job of killing those innocent children!".

They've done it in every other conflict they've been in since the '40s, you have to be bloody retarded to think that they've magically changed their tactics in the past few years.


Soldiers... terrorists... Could you please explain the difference to me? They're both groups trying to reach a political goal using violence. Don't try to tell me "terrorists are the ones that kill innocents", because there are terrorists that go after military targets, and there are soldiers that go after civillian targets.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: Phluck]
    #864449 -

I didn't exactly read all your replies but I'd have to say.. I dunno.. the testing of various chemical agents on his own civilians and the murder of those who oppose him might make him just a little but naughty.. just enough for a time out don't you think??

Sammy


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I believe in the Golden Rule ? The Man with the Gold . . . Rules.
- Mr. T

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: Sammy]
    #864493 -

Uh... the US has never tested anything on unwilling civillians? Everything from LSD to high levels of radiation.

Soldiers get it even worse, they been subjected to all sorts of chemical weapons in the name of science.

It's a little hard to find decent links about actual incidents because lots of silly conspiracy sites pop up when I search, but I know I've seen a few documentaries about specific radiation testing incidents and other things. Maybe someone else knows what to look for, I'll try and get some decent links tommorow.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: Phluck]
    #864521 -

In reply to:

Soldiers... terrorists... Could you please explain the difference to me? They're both groups trying to reach a political goal using violence. Don't try to tell me "terrorists are the ones that kill innocents", because there are terrorists that go after military targets, and there are soldiers that go after civillian targets.


Soldiers are acting under orders from governments and generally fight battles and wars. Terrorists generally attack civilian populations and marginal targets with high populations in an effort to induce terror and kill people unrelated to the reason for the attack.

Timothy McVeigh is a good example. Under Janet Reno's orders gov stormtroopers burned 70 people to death. Timothy McVeigh decided that for revenge he'll blow up a federal courthouse including a day care center. Never mind that the court house didn't order the Waco church burned with 70 people inside, by golly they were feds and guilty by association. I think that's a good example of the terrorist mindset.

It's true some folk considered terrorists attack military outposts and targets. These folks are really guerilla fighters and not terrorists no matter what the mass media or gov calls them. And there is a big difference between a guerilla and a terrorist. When the Cole was sunk in the dock for instance is a good example of this. The mass media calls them terrorists but they were a military unit that carried out a successful attack on another military target. This makes them guerillas. I think it's only because of the mass media and gov calling all non-state sponsored enemies terrorists that this confusion arises.

Now, state sponsored terrorism is a discussion for another day...


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: Phluck]
    #864553 -

>>>>>Uh... the US has never tested anything on unwilling civillians? Everything from LSD to high levels of radiation.<<<<<

Dont forget about the blacks... I think it was Hepatitis, The government set up free immunization clinics in poor black neighborhoods and injectec several thousand black men with hepatitis (I think thats what it was) just to see how fast it could possibly kill and spread in the population....

Im sure someone has heard of this, its pretty well known..


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GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG             

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #864791 -

Terrorists generally attack civilian populations and marginal targets with high populations in an effort to induce terror and kill people unrelated to the reason for the attack.

What about the illegal terror bombing of Cambodia and Laos by the US? I think around 2 million innocents died there. You add up every so-called "terrorist" act in the history of humanity and you don't get anything like 2 million dead civilians.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: Phluck]
    #864827 -


Well, let's look at the american government:

Funding of terrorists..proven
Missle attacks on innocent Afghani's..proven
Condoning the murdering of Iraqis, Afghanis, vietnamese, etc...proven
American soldiers can easily make more than 25k a year...


Don't forget missile attacks on friendly Canadian soldiers...


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: GabbaDj]
    #864858 -

Well he used an extensive ammount of mustard gas and the nerve agent Tabun on the Kurds back in the 80's.

Have you ever seen a victim of a mustard attack? It's not pretty. Blisters and intense pain start hours, sometimes a full day, after exposure. Blistering lasts months. It takes something around 60 days for mustard burns to heal, and they never do fully heal. Worse are the people who get it in their eyes: blind for life. Bottom of the barrel is the unlucky ones who inhale the fumes and end up with massive vasculatory damage. It takes one teaspoon of liquid mustard gas splashed on the skin to kill a person, and it's a long horrible death over the course of a few days. There is no known antidote to mustard.

Ever seen what happens to a person who receives a lethal dose of a chemical specifically designed to kill? Tabun is considered a non-reversible Cholinesterase Inhibitor, meaning you die a very nasty death as every nerve ending in your body goes into overload. Antidotes for ChE inhibiting agents are few and need to be administered immediately. Even then hours and sometimes days of constant medical support are needed just to keep a person on the verge of life. The ammount of atropine needed in severe cases can cause devastating organ damage. Hospitalization lasts months, and in many cases the victim suffers cardiovascular problems for the rest of their life: which may only be a year or two.

What makes Sadam so bad? He slaughtered thousands of innocents, and horribly scarred many more for life. Yes, innocent victims die in war and they have died by the hands of the US and most other "good" countries. But those countries at least make the attempt at limiting innocent casualties to the bare minimum. That's not perfect, but it's better than gasing entire villages of people who don't even own a military weapon.

I do agree with you on one point I think you are trying to make. The US is now unnessisarily threatening Iraq. For all you Americans...how would you appreciate forieners coming into your country and making surprise "inspections" of anything they want? I know I wouldn't like it.

Until the US is willing to completely dismantle all of their nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons they have no right to tell others to do the same. No right to force others to do the same.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #864864 -

So were the crew of the Enola Gay terrorists?


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: Phluck]
    #864902 -

The term "terrorist" is entirely dependant on what side you are on. I'm sure the Palestinians consider the Israeli to be terrorists, and the Israeli consider the Palestinians to be terrorists.

I'd prefer to limit the use of the word terrorist to an individual or group of individuals who are separate from any nation in their actions. When a nation commits an act of terror it should be called war. A minute difference, I know, but it's the best way to think about it that I've been able to come up with.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: trendal]
    #864928 -

Well he used an extensive ammount of mustard gas and the nerve agent Tabun on the Kurds back in the 80's.

Pity the US sold it to him.

btw, Bush said the photos of Halabja may have been fabricated and defended Saddam to the hilt. The year after he approved a loan to Saddam for a billion dollars.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: Xlea321]
    #864968 -

Hey I'm not saying the US is all good and clean man, they've done far worse in their time than a few thousand. Far, far worse.

Here in Canada there's a news show called The Fifth Estate which is fairly popular as an unbiased program. They somehow got ahold of a tape of a phone conversation between someone in the US govt and Sadam himself just after Iraq took over Kuwait. I can't remember exactly what was said, but it came down to this:

The US got angry at Kuwait for their oil prices.
The US quietly asked Sadam if he could do something about it.
Sadam took over Kuwait.
The US panicked, hid the evidence, then went to kick Sadam's ass.

The conversation was the US official asking Sadam why he took over Kuwait. He said something to the effect of "you asked me to do something about Kuwait, so I did." The US official said he had gone too far and that the US never meant for him to actually take over Kuwait, just to do something about the situation.

From this you could arguably say that the Gulf War would never have happened if it weren't for the US. Sadam may not have tried to take over Kuwait without the US asking him to "do something".


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: trendal]
    #865310 -

Yeah just before Saddam invaded in July 1990 he had a meeting with the US ambassador for Iraq April Gillespie who assured him that "The US has no interest in Arab-Arab conflicts". This was the green light for the invasion. I imagine he was as surprised as anyone when the US turned on him, especially since he'd been Bush and Reagans best buddy for so long.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: Xlea321]
    #865429 -

I was watching the other night an interview with Wolf Blitzer and some head of foreign relations for Iraq.

Wolf kept telling him that why not just let the inspections happen? Why not just admidt to what you are doing.

The guy seemed real candid in saying "were not doing anything that the US and other nations arent doing" and "we had weapons inspectors in our country for 7 years and followed the rules yet they reported nothing and the US attacked us anyway despite prommises."

The guy never denied that they are making weapons of mass destruction, he simply said that they were doing the same as all other countries that wish to defend themselvs and he stressed over and over that they did what they were told to do for several years and were betrayed by the US and the UN weapons inspectors and now they simply just dont want any part of it again....

Tell ya the truth, I believe him.


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GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG             

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: GabbaDj]
    #865634 -

So Gabbadj....if saddam is such a good guy, why dont you pack your shit up and GO live with the peaceful, loving Iraqi Republican Guard?Im sure Saddam would provide you with some pure, touchy-feely middle eastern hospitality.........

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: TrOmAn]
    #865725 -

haha... I think of that often... The thing is that I love being an American...

I just dont believe that America needs to start wars like it does, I dont think that we should even be sticking our nose into the middle east at all.. If we were TRUELY the leaders of the free and democratic world then we would lead the world in ways to make things better for all of us in the long run.
Things like alternative fuel and feeeding the hungry.

Some day America will face the truth of our own futility. Unfortunatly it will be too late by then...


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GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG             

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: TrOmAn]
    #866136 -

So Gabbadj....if saddam is such a good guy, why dont you pack your shit up and GO live with the peaceful, loving Iraqi Republican Guard?Im sure Saddam would provide you with some pure, touchy-feely middle eastern hospitality.........

er...because the US are going to go over there and drop a shitload of bombs from 15,000 feet on everyone?

Two american pilots in conversation:

"Dude, i think i just bombed like this wedding party..."

"Bodacious dude..."


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: Xlea321]
    #866204 -

get with the times foriegner....when our pilots bomb a wedding party, they say "That was off the fucking chains!!!" you'll never understand our country....


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Religion is for people who are afraid of going to Hell; spirituality is for those who have been there.

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #866462 -

"Remember that scene in Scanners when the guy's head explodes?"

"Yeah..."

"I just did that to a five year old Iraqi girl."

"Cool."


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: Xlea321]
    #866514 -

****What about the illegal terror bombing of Cambodia and Laos by the US? I think around 2 million innocents died there.****

now you're just making up figures...tell me where you got 2 million people from?...quit using liberal logic

as for your 600,000 Iraqi children killed by us is plain and utter bullshit. Don't blame the regime that steals all medical supplies and food, blame the US..it's easy


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #866517 -

as for your 600,000 Iraqi children killed by us is plain and utter bullshit. Don't blame the regime that steals all medical supplies and food, blame the US..it's easy

Horseshit. According to the UN official in charge of the oil for food programme and UNICEF there is no evidence Iraq are doing any such thing. Both state the US enforced embargo has slaughtered 600,000 kids under 5.

Stick to watching American Gladiators.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #866521 -

when our pilots bomb a wedding party, they say "That was off the fucking chains!!!" you'll never understand our country....

LMAO  :grin:


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: Xlea321]
    #866522 -

You are naive....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #866524 -

No, just informed.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Sadam H.. Good or Bad? [Re: Xlea321]
    #866528 -

Care to tell me where you got that info? (the 2 million killed in laos and the 600,000 from iraq)


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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* USA HAS GONE CRAZY - TERRORIST ATACKS!!!!!
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