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InvisibleJean-Luc Picard
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Registered: 12/30/07
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Need Help with grow problem!
    #8601943 - 07/06/08 07:21 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Ok so i recently purchased 2 syringes from an online source and a grow kit with sterilized substrate, PF cakes to be more exact. Anyway, I dont have a fridge in my room, and i received the syringes in the mail about a week b4 the kit arrived, so i had to keep them at room temp for about a week. So I follow the standard PF inoculation technique and set up the incubation chamber at about 81 degrees. Well its been about 12 days since then and only 2 of the 12 cakes are showing anything, and they are only germinating in a max of 2 out of 4 inoculation sites.  Whats the problem? Did i leave the syringes out too long at room temp? How long can they last at room temp?


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The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you - NDT

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OfflineBubba McMushies
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Re: Need Help with grow problem! [Re: Jean-Luc Picard]
    #8601973 - 07/06/08 07:27 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Syringes are fine left at room temp. They just store better for long periods of time in the fridge.

So....

Unless you got the spores from a reputable source, aka Shroomery Sponsors, I would guess that the syringes are bunk.


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SPAWN CALCULATOR!

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Need Help with grow problem! [Re: Jean-Luc Picard]
    #8601985 - 07/06/08 07:29 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

That's about par for the course.  It might help to shake the syringe vigorously next time to disburse the spores.  If they're clumped together really bad, you can lay the syringe(within a ziploc bag) into an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner to break them up.
RR


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OfflineTheBandit
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Re: Need Help with grow problem! [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8602030 - 07/06/08 07:40 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
If they're clumped together really bad, you can lay the syringe(within a ziploc bag) into an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner to break them up.
RR




....wow.


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[quote]RogerRabbit said:
Ah, that explains it.  Typical know-it-all noob.  We get a few thousand just like you register here every year.  They try a few grows, fail miserably and then after a few months or one bad trip, go back to sniffing glue, never to be seen again.

We have a basic pf tek that's idiot proof enough for noobs to get fucked up with their friends. 

Mycologists on the other hand grow for the love of growing.  They want to experiment with various species, substrates, and fruiting environments. They'll move on to isolate strains, attempt hybridization, and in general treat cultivation as an artform, rather than a chore that must be performed as a means to an end.  They'll work twice as hard for a ten percent gain, just for the love of perfection.  These are the ones who will isolate strains, not the dumb fucks who treat mushrooms as a drug, or even worse, a pathogen, as if mushrooms cause disease.
RR [/quote]

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InvisibleJean-Luc Picard
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Re: Need Help with grow problem! [Re: Jean-Luc Picard]
    #8604463 - 07/07/08 03:00 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

ok so im going for bunk on the syringes. So i have 2 cakes in the process of colonization. I would like to have a fairly large crop by the end of summer or around that time. Is there anyway that i can take the colonized cakes and use them as spawn for grain inoculation, then from grain to a bulk substrate of dung/straw or something? How feasible is this? I am rather inexperienced but I've done a shitload of research into it and i like to think of my self as having alot of common sense as well as common knowledge as far as sterilization occurs. Any suggestions as to how i would go about this or if its even possible? U guys are awesome


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The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you - NDT

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Offlinenonlinear
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Re: Need Help with grow problem! [Re: Jean-Luc Picard]
    #8604528 - 07/07/08 03:20 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

i would try to fruit your 2 good cakes to get used to life cycle, and just for practice.  you're going to make mistakes, and it's better on cakes than a whole shitload of grain.

you are not going to get big harvests from cakes.  for that, you need to start working on bulk

if you want a big harvest at summer's end, you need to order syringes now.  they will take a couple weeks to arrive, during which time you can read up on grain spawn, bulk substrate, and various FC teks (i would suggest monotubs). 

once your syringe(s) arrive, knock up 1 or more grain jars.  use these tor grain to grain transfers and/or spawn for bulk subs.  you should be able to get big harvests by the end of summer if you are serious and get the ball rolling now.


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InvisibleShad0w
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Re: Need Help with grow problem! [Re: nonlinear]
    #8604582 - 07/07/08 03:37 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I wouldnt toss the non growing cakes after 12 days..... wait a bit longer on em, plus, if 2 of the cakes are growing...... why would the assumed conclusion be bad syringes?

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OfflinePowerOfTheCoir
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Re: Need Help with grow problem! [Re: Jean-Luc Picard]
    #8604592 - 07/07/08 03:38 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Like everyone said, room temperature is fine for a few weeks (or probably longer) but bright light might give them some problems. Dunno where you kept them (although even light probably wouldn't kill them that fast, they're meant to work outdoors, right?).

Is there a chance that they sat in a hot mailbox for a little while? A black plastic mailbox on a hot, sunny summer day is basically a roadside solar oven. Of course, if it was a shady dealer, the syringe could have been bunk from the start.

If you got it from a Shroomery dealer, you may want to send them a polite e-mail. Even if it wasn't their fault, they treasure their great reputation and also really treat their customers well (and love making them loyal). They'll probably take care of you.

As far as your next question, yes you can use pieces of a cake to inoculate grain. You just need to remove the pieces in a sterile environment, with sterile tools. It's essentially a grain to grain transfer, only you'll do a cake to grain. Hydrated, sterilized grain will grow anything that lands on it, so sterility can't be emphasized enough. Don't try this without a glove box (easy, cheap, and effective) or flow hood. There are also ways to turn a piece of a colonized jar into a solution that you can inoculate with. You can then use this solution to start more pf jars or even grain jars. Finally, you can just crumble the cakes and span them directly to bulk. They're not quite as effective as grains, but they still work as a spawn.

Since you said you are shooting for a big crop by the end of summer, I'd suggest trying to have a few techniques going side-by-side. If you do start using grains, you'll probably buy larger jars for that. Keep using the half-pints for cakes so that if you run into trouble with grains, you still have something going. Similarly, if you are interested in bulk techniques, try a few different ways. Look up teks that interest you and have worked on this board. If you have the room, have a few FCs going.

Everyone screws up a little when they're learning, so be prepared for a few attempts to fail before the end of summer. You seem intelligent though, and intelligent people rarely fail with everything they try in this hobby. If you hedge your bets you'll have something nice to show for your work and you will have learned a lot more than someone who just followed one tek.


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Check out my first ever TEK!
Shroom capsules with the Cap-M-Quik (pics)

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OfflinePowerOfTheCoir
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Re: Need Help with grow problem! [Re: Shad0w]
    #8604654 - 07/07/08 03:56 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shad0w said:
I wouldnt toss the non growing cakes after 12 days..... wait a bit longer on em, plus, if 2 of the cakes are growing...... why would the assumed conclusion be bad syringes?




I agree with the part about not tossing them. I've seen jars sit for weeks before suddenly springing to life. Still, that's a lot of failing jars for just random slowness.

The reason that people are blaming the syringes is that:

1) Lack of visible contamination at injection points plus the two successful jars make injection related contams unlikely.

2) No visible problems plus the general resistance of jars with a verm barrier make intruding/unsterilized contams unlikely.

3) He probably mixed the whole batch of brf/verm mix in one batch and two jars germinated, so the mix should be fine. Plus, bad mixes don't stop germination unless there's no water at all. They'll just cause stalling later on.

4) When syringes or prints are stored for too long or exposed to adverse conditions, the spores don't all die simultaneously (unless the adverse condition was an alcohol bath or an oven). Old spore prints have very few viable spores, thus you will often see some germination, but not nearly as much as with fresh spores. Also, with fewer germinations, the slow-growing, wispy, cottony monokaryons take longer to find compatible mates so that they can form dikaryons.

5) Over time, spores can clump into big masses. This is bad, since unless a jar gets lucks and a spore clump gets sucked into the needle during it's inoculation, it will just get distilled water. That's why RR emphasized shaking. Undistributed spores would also show up as a mix of failed and successful inoculations.


--------------------
Check out my first ever TEK!
Shroom capsules with the Cap-M-Quik (pics)

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InvisibleJean-Luc Picard
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Registered: 12/30/07
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Re: Need Help with grow problem! [Re: Jean-Luc Picard]
    #8604799 - 07/07/08 04:39 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

You guys are my heroes...I'll look into all of these suggestions and links and probably post pictures of what i decide to do, so keep an eye out and any suggestions on any of my techniques will be most appreciated. I would rather feel stupid and end up with a pound of fruits than feel smart for a bit and end up with nothing but rotten mycelium and birdseed. Thanks again guys, peace.


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The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you - NDT

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InvisibleBlutjager
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Re: Need Help with grow problem! [Re: nonlinear]
    #8605749 - 07/07/08 08:21 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

nonlinear said:
Once your syringe(s) arrive, knock up 1 or more grain jars.  use these for grain to grain transfers and/or spawn for bulk subs.  you should be able to get big harvests by the end of summer if you are serious and get the ball rolling now.


:rockon:

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InvisibleJean-Luc Picard
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Re: Need Help with grow problem! [Re: Blutjager]
    #8613427 - 07/09/08 03:09 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

hey thats awesome can you do it with liquid culture or is it  exclusively for spores...bc i can probably swing both. Which one in your opinion would work best?


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The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you - NDT

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InvisibleJean-Luc Picard
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Re: Need Help with grow problem! [Re: Jean-Luc Picard]
    #8619757 - 07/10/08 10:42 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

ok so i ordered 2 syringes which i will use on a 4lb grain bag to start out with and transfer to 5lbs of horse manure/straw...my basic idea is that with 4lbs spawn to 5lbs bulk substrate, i should be fully colonized in a couple of days and then casing is applied for the finish...does this sound ok to everybody? Are there any suggestions on this? Oh and btw if there is any spore solution left over would it be better to try and re-inoculate the BRF jars directly or to make my own liquid culture and then inoculate the jars with that? Any suggestions or guidance is greatly appreciated.


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The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you - NDT

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OfflinePowerOfTheCoir
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Re: Need Help with grow problem! [Re: Jean-Luc Picard]
    #8622052 - 07/11/08 02:04 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ok so i ordered 2 syringes which i will use on a 4lb grain bag to start out with and transfer to 5lbs of horse manure/straw...my basic idea is that with 4lbs spawn to 5lbs bulk substrate, i should be fully colonized in a couple of days and then casing is applied for the finish...does this sound ok to everybody?




Spawn/bulk ratio's are usually measured by volume, not weight, but it sounds like you have plenty of spawn (but I honestly have no idea how voluminous 5lbs of poo-straw is). If by a couple of days you mean 2, I think that might be a bit short. With a high spawn to bulk ratio, you'll get a fast colonization, but not that fast. The mycelium on the grains needs a day just to recover from being broken apart and miked with the bulk. Under a week for colonization is reasonable though (but not guaranteed).

Be sure to pasteurize that hpoo/straw! There are a million teks for this in the articles and on the board. You've got some time to wait before you're ready to do it, so start reading. Ditto with casing techniques.

Quote:

Oh and btw if there is any spore solution left over would it be better to try and re-inoculate the BRF jars directly or to make my own liquid culture and then inoculate the jars with that? Any suggestions or guidance is greatly appreciated.




Re-inoculating anything is risky. If you have spore solution and you have zero interest in saving it for a later grow, then it couldn't hurt. Just be aware that it's very low percentage. Using LC for that would be a good idea, simply because LC is basically free if you can make it. It would also be qa nice learning opportunity for LC, although it could fail even if the LC was perfect, so don't consider it a test. Still, brf jars are cheap to make. If you'd really like to get anything out of them, start over completely.


--------------------
Check out my first ever TEK!
Shroom capsules with the Cap-M-Quik (pics)

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InvisibleJean-Luc Picard
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Re: Need Help with grow problem! [Re: PowerOfTheCoir]
    #8624592 - 07/12/08 08:37 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

thanks for the advice, and sympathizing with my n00bness...ill probly just make a few jars of lc and leave it in the fridge for awhile till my next grow...and if i have enough then ill try it with a few jars but i wont waste all of my lc on something that may or may not work. Ill update when something happens thats worth talking about. Peace...


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The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you - NDT

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InvisibleJean-Luc Picard
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Re: Need Help with grow problem! [Re: Jean-Luc Picard]
    #8644376 - 07/16/08 08:11 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

ok so here are some of the pics of the only 2 jars to survive at about 3 1/2 weeks after inoculation, as well as a pic of my incubator setup






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InvisibleVV Cephei
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Re: Need Help with grow problem! [Re: Jean-Luc Picard]
    #8644406 - 07/16/08 08:20 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

If you have the layer of dry vermiculite on the top of the jars, and if your inoculation holes are covered, then you should take off that aluminum foil. The jars need to be able to exchange gases during colonization.

Many people will also tell you that putting the jars in an incubation chamber is unnecessary.

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InvisibleLedd
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Re: Need Help with grow problem! [Re: VV Cephei]
    #8644491 - 07/16/08 08:46 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Incubation is unnecessary and so is covering your inoculation holes at all provided your room is around 75^F give or take. My room hit 85 today. They slowed down but nothing bad happened.

Leave the holes exposed, no foil, no tape, nothin'.


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OfflineBrandNewbie
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Re: Need Help with grow problem! [Re: Ledd]
    #8644509 - 07/16/08 08:50 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ledbonzo86 said:Leave the holes exposed, no foil, no tape, nothin'.




Yeah, and spit in the holes as well. Oh sneeze! Sneeze into the holes. That's what I do. I DARE contaminates to contaminate! Feces! Smear feces on top of your jars....


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Answer: Because they're ugly and they stink.

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Offlinenumonkei
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Re: Need Help with grow problem! [Re: BrandNewbie]
    #8644560 - 07/16/08 09:03 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BrandNewbie said:
Quote:

Ledbonzo86 said:Leave the holes exposed, no foil, no tape, nothin'.




Yeah, and spit in the holes as well. Oh sneeze! Sneeze into the holes. That's what I do. I DARE contaminates to contaminate! Feces! Smear feces on top of your jars....





...???...:glittershitz:...

...:confused: DON'T shit, sneeze, or spit on your jars, please.


~Monk

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