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InvisibleDJYoshaBYD
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No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe * 1
    #8597867 - 07/05/08 04:00 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Side by side comparison of 2 no-soak methods of wbs prep...

I dont know if this will help at all, but im postin it..

Im putting this here to try to help ease some confusion on these 2 no-soak methods of preparation of wild bird seed for use as a medium for growing any type of grain loving mushy... there are debates left and right about to soak, or not to soak.. really, if a method works, it works.. plain and simple...

1 - Fooman's WBS method
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5265629/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1

2 - the common "simmer for 30-40 minutes" method


here we go... (and yes, these have been followed correctly.. I soak and simmer, but thats just me, and this is for research.. lol)

****first off, fooman's no-soak method

this was prepared in mac and cheese making pot (lol I dont know the size) filled about 2 inches from the brim with water

I brought it a very rapid boil, killed the heat (gas range), and added half a quart jar of wbs... yes, I left the sunflower seeds in.. they never hurt me...

then I covered and let it sit for an hour, rinsed, and strained the wbs for 30 minutes, whilst shaking it around and making sure it has drained properly..

Results

when I looked at it, I noticed that it had NOT gotten as swollen as it should.. I have done this to illustrate a point.. it needs to take at least 2 hours after you put the seed in for it to get swollen enough.. really, until the water cools.. they will only take as much as they can, and it wont burst them because of the heat not being present.. you can leave them in there for a good amount of time..

after another hour or so (just keep checking until they are swollen), take them out and strain them.. once dry (make sure its dry on the outside!), you should be able to split a kernel with your fingernail.. ready for the jars..


****next, the "simmer-for-30-40-minute" method

I used the same pot, and the same amount of wbs from the first..

I brought the water to a rolling boil, and turned down the heat to a nice simmer (cooking is a hobby, so I know my simmer status)... Then I added the wbs, put the lid on, and let it simmer for 35 minutes (in between the limits.. haha)..

I then removed it from heat after the allotted time, rinsed, and strained as I did before...

results

Right off the bat, I noticed that the wbs had gotten very swollen.. I did notice about 5-10% popped kernels, which sucks, but shouldnt be enough to hurt anything.. you get problems when about 30% or more are popped.. but you still do NOT want any, if possible.. I also find that if you are worried a bit, you can add a little dry vermiculite in there, and that will help make it a little more manageable..

upon picking up the wbs, the outer shell was still semi-hard, meaning that if you dropped a handfull, its should sound hard.. then when I squeeze it, a little bit of effort is needed to get it open.. which is where it should be at... again, you should be able to split it with your fingernail with little effort.. this will make a nice filler for a jar..

for best results, this should be done at the lowest simmer you can... burst kernels make the wbs sticky and just wack to work with... an electric range would make ease of this issue, as you can control the heat better.. if you want to know when its dry and ready for the jars, pick up a small handfull, give a gentle squeeze, and let go.. there should be VERY few wbs's stuck to your hand, if any...



Sooo.. In conclusion, they both work just as well, depending on what you have available.. Where I live, I have a gas range, and prefer not to simmer directly, because the gas will not go low enough to keep them from busting open.. in the end, I got the same results.. a substrate suitable for supporting life..

Its all preference, and like I said.. if it works, it works.. period..

hope this helps somebody.. lol.. probably not, though

Edited by DJYoshaBYD (07/05/08 04:10 PM)

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InvisibleDJYoshaBYD
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: DJYoshaBYD]
    #8598085 - 07/05/08 05:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

bump... lol

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Invisiblegubi
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: DJYoshaBYD]
    #8638193 - 07/15/08 02:33 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Actually I am saoking some wbs right now using fooman's method. I took a 5 gal bucket and dumped the boiling water in there for an hour. Checked and it definitely didn't soak up enough. I am using wbs with TONS of milo in it though, that's probably why. Repeated the step a 2nd time for 30 more mins, the seeds now bust when I squeeze them with my fingernail. Now going to rinse the crap out of them and do it again for 30 more mins just to be safe and drain then jar.

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InvisibleLedd
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: gubi]
    #8638256 - 07/15/08 02:48 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Help me out here. Isn't the soak to germinate endospores so they will die from the cooking process?


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InvisibleDJYoshaBYD
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: Ledd]
    #8638277 - 07/15/08 02:54 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

yes and no.. it DOES germinate the spores.. bbbuuuttt, many have gotten away with simmering ONLY.. I personally dont do it, but I had extra time and a blunt, and got bored.. thought it would just be an interesting thing.. I saw someone talking about it, and a few of my friends were discussing it, saying it wouldnt work.. I actually have a colonized jar of each one that are fine.. it was just for fun.. lol

soaking makes them easier to kill, but if you dont soak, they are not totally impervious.. if you use LC (gay) or live myc transfer, you can get the myc colonized before any enemy spores have the time to germinate.. really, its up to you.. if you are growing from multispore, it would be safer to soak, as spores take longer to grow, and give more time for contams to set in..

I have actually been skipping the simmer and just soaking for 24-30 hours ( my girl kept getting mad about random birdseed in pots and on the floor.. haha), and straining.. it works very well..

if you are not fruiting off of it, you can really just soak, and they work fine for spawn.. you really do want to simmer if using as a substrate for fruiting, though..

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InvisibleLedd
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: DJYoshaBYD]
    #8638439 - 07/15/08 03:23 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DJYoshaBYD said:
if you use LC (gay) or live myc transfer, you can get the myc colonized before any enemy spores have the time to germinate..




Man I can't use gay LC. I don't have the equipment to find two male spores...


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InvisibleDJYoshaBYD
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: Ledd]
    #8638449 - 07/15/08 03:25 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

HAHAHAHAHAHA.. good one, buddy!!! ZZZZIINNGGG

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Invisiblegubi
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: DJYoshaBYD]
    #8641708 - 07/16/08 09:05 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Well, every grain in my jars busted open after I pc'd for about 80 mins at 15psi. Failed attempt at wbs #2.:(

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InvisibleDJYoshaBYD
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: gubi]
    #8641714 - 07/16/08 09:07 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

you pressure cooked too long... and whats your altitude? maybe thats the cause?

how did you prep it? Just soak, soak/simmer, or simmer?

this way works toooooooo

bring enough water to completely submerge the wbs you will use to a boil

rinse wbs, throw in pot of boiling water, cover, and remove from heat.. let sit for 24 hours... this is yet another way to hydrate wbs.. after 24 hours, just rinse and strain well..

Edited by DJYoshaBYD (07/16/08 09:09 AM)

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Invisiblegubi
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: DJYoshaBYD]
    #8641887 - 07/16/08 09:51 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

750ft above sea level... And there was a small amount of water on the bottom of my jars after I pc'd (probably from all the grains busting open). going to try pcing for just an hour next time.

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Invisiblegubi
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: gubi]
    #8641891 - 07/16/08 09:52 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

gubi said:
Actually I am saoking some wbs right now using fooman's method. I took a 5 gal bucket and dumped the boiling water in there for an hour. Checked and it definitely didn't soak up enough. I am using wbs with TONS of milo in it though, that's probably why. Repeated the step a 2nd time for 30 more mins, the seeds now bust when I squeeze them with my fingernail. Now going to rinse the crap out of them and do it again for 30 more mins just to be safe and drain then jar.




Prep ^

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InvisibleDJYoshaBYD
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: gubi]
    #8641908 - 07/16/08 10:01 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

that too much.. lol.. it can work..

the puddle in the bottom of the jar was because it wasnt strained right.. did you cover up the tops of the jars tightly with foil?

Try a different method of prep..

soak for 24 hours, simmer for 30 minutes (reminder: simmer is not BOIL.. haha)

the method I stated above

soak for 24-36 hours, no simmer

take your pic.. lol

and only PC for one hour..

and make sure you strain VERY well.. if you pick up a handfull and let go, 98% of the grain should NOT stick to your hand

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Invisiblegubi
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: DJYoshaBYD]
    #8641963 - 07/16/08 10:31 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Grain was definitely strained enough, strained for about 1 1/2 hrs then took some paper towel and moved it around the wbs to pick up some extra moisture. Did the "spoon test" "toilet paper test" and the "hand test". Had only a couple peices of wbs stuck to my hand. Jars were covered tightly with foil, lids were a little loose as I have micropore tape on them with tyvek discs. May redo my lids, I dunno.

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InvisibleDJYoshaBYD
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: gubi]
    #8642007 - 07/16/08 10:44 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

yeah.. has to be from busted grain then.. do it again, and try not to burst them kernels

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Invisiblegubi
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: DJYoshaBYD]
    #8642037 - 07/16/08 10:51 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Gonna try pcing for less time and using less water in my pc as it loses barley any water.
Will be trying docs method next.

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Invisiblegubi
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: gubi] * 1
    #8643951 - 07/16/08 05:55 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

One thing I don't understand is how some people get away with barely straining their wbs after they rinse. Like Fooman said "After rinsing, you want the excess water to drain. I myself don't wait a half hour or anything for this step, I just shake the the strainer like a chef does on the cooking shows until I don't see more than a drop or two of water. "
The wbs is so wet still after doing something like this so how can the outside of the seed be "dry"?
I guess that's the main part I don't get, some say they have their wbs still wet before they pc, others get it totaly dry on the outside. Maybe it's because the wbs hasn't reached it's maximum moisture level yet and still keeping it wet allows the water to seep inside it while in the pc.


--------------------
I haven't failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.    ~ Thomas Edison

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OfflineBrandNewbie
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: gubi]
    #8643979 - 07/16/08 06:03 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

gubi said:The wbs is so wet still after doing something like this so how can the outside of the seed be "dry"?




The endosperm, or exterior, of the seed or grain is a very hard casing. Water does not penetrate it rapidly.


--------------------
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Invisiblegubi
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: BrandNewbie]
    #8644077 - 07/16/08 06:36 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BrandNewbie said:
Quote:

gubi said:The wbs is so wet still after doing something like this so how can the outside of the seed be "dry"?




The endosperm, or exterior, of the seed or grain is a very hard casing. Water does not penetrate it rapidly.




I was speaking in terms of draining the seeds. Fooman states he only shakes the seeds in a strainer till no water drips out then loads them up to pc. The seeds are still very wet after doing that. I was just wondering how some get away with leaving the seeds so wet before pcing and others don't.


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I haven't failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.    ~ Thomas Edison

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InvisibleDJYoshaBYD
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: gubi]
    #8644124 - 07/16/08 06:51 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

yeah.. I always thought that part of that tek was sort of far fetched... lol.. no offense to the person that wrote it.. at all.. but it needs to strain ALOT longer than just a couple of shakes.. haha

most of the time, they DONT get away with it.. haha.. if there is excess water, is just flat out doesnt work.. it puddles and.. well.. I dont have to say anymore.. anyone who hasnt done it right KNOWS what happens.. haha

I mean, MAYBE, some excess moisture might seep in during the PC, but I have never tried it.. I goofed the first few times with grain, but quickly corrected everything..

My favorite method when I first started was just to drop it straight in boiling water, cover, remove from heat, and just leave it for 24 hours.. just another of many ways to hydrate it, but straining doesnt matter.. it HAS to be damn near dry on the outside... if it sticks to your hand, its too wet..

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InvisibleDJYoshaBYD
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: DJYoshaBYD]
    #8644127 - 07/16/08 06:53 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

sorry if I am "haha"ing too much.. I have smoked durban poison, and am suffering from the subsequent giggles.. haha.. damn.. sorry :rasta:

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Invisiblegubi
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: DJYoshaBYD]
    #8644240 - 07/16/08 07:30 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I'm doing it again tonight. Already had 6 qts of seed soaking for 12 hrs, going to boil some water and toss it in the bucket for 30 mins or so then rinse with cold water then gonna snatch the screen off my window and spread the seeds on it and set under a ceiling fan till outside is dry. Jar up and pc for 60mins. Better work this time!!

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InvisibleFooMan
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: gubi]
    #8644327 - 07/16/08 07:56 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I did an update to this tek in my journal a while back. I agree on the grains needing to drain a bit more and changed the wording accordingly. As far as the seeds not being swollen enough or still being a little wet after the drain :shrug:. I haven't found that to be a problem as shown by the pics in the updated tek. The seeds colonize fine and whatever extra moisture is there disappears within a few days.

UPDATED WBS PREP

As I state in the tek, I'm sure people will say that I'm not doing it the proper way, but it works for me and that's all I need. The main thing is to find out what works for your own situation and run with it despite what people say. :peace:


--------------------

Quick WBS Prep

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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: DJYoshaBYD]
    #8644347 - 07/16/08 08:02 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

BTW, thanks DJYoshaBYD for the feedback about soaking the grains an extra hour. I may do that next time just to see the difference in size you're talking about. If it makes a considerable difference, I'll edit my journal post. :peace:


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Quick WBS Prep

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Offlineshevanel
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: DJYoshaBYD]
    #8644392 - 07/16/08 08:16 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I've been following this thread for a few days now and I was interested in Foo's method because I've been getting my schedule screwed up from choosing the wrong days to begin soaking my seed.. (sometimes I have to throw seed out simply because I couldn't get to it in time after allowing it to soak 36+ hours.)

So tonight I decided to try the boiling water method. I rinsed and sifted 8lbs of wbs and loaded into a mesh straining bag. Boiled water in my 23qt Pc, turned off the heat and inserted the mesh bag into the hot water then placed the PC lid on.

After 2 hours of soaking in the hot water the seed still does not seem to be "ready" to use and I'm out of time so it's going to have to sit in there until 6am :shocked: ...

I don't have time to wait another hour or 2 and I cannot use the seed at it's current level of hydration so I guess we shall see what this mess will look like in the morning. It's only $2 of WBS so it's a cheap experiment to see whether or not I'll have usable grain or not.

:crazy2:

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Invisiblegubi
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: FooMan]
    #8644416 - 07/16/08 08:22 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I think your tek is laid out quite nicely Foo. My wbs just has tons of milo in it (Bird Basics) so it needed a bit more time with the hot water. After the 90 mins it was set to go. I just loaded them up to wet I guess, despite the fact that checking moisture with a spoon and my hand told me I was ready to load them, my eyes told me otherwise as I still saw "glistening" moisture on them. I think they would have been ok if I would have dried them a little bit more and pced for 60 mins instead of 90.

All the teks will work, but it's the individual that needs to adjust it in certain areas for proper preparation. Just takes time and effort to find what works best. Unfortunately I'm still in search of this.

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Invisiblegubi
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: DJYoshaBYD]
    #8645140 - 07/16/08 11:13 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Even docs wbs tek just says "drain" for 20 mins and cover so the top doesnt dry out....... I thought you wanted the outside to be dry....

Although it does look like he's only using 1 jar of seed in his tek.

Edited by gubi (07/16/08 11:45 PM)

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: gubi]
    #8645405 - 07/17/08 12:32 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Grains should never be added to boiling water.  That's a major cause of burst kernels.  At the very least, add the grains to cold water and then bring to a boil.

Hot water hydrates the grains much faster, so if you dump dry grains into boiling water, how can they absorb that much water without bursting?  The soak allows them to slowly absorb water, eliminating that problem.

Some growers are satisfied with ten percent burst kernels.  Personally, if I saw ten TOTAL burst kernels, I'd toss the whole batch and start over. Loose starch in jars is never a good thing.
RR


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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8645478 - 07/17/08 01:00 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I don't get bursted grains using this method. The temperature of the water drops as soon as you add the grains and continues to drop because the heat is immediately shut off. If anything, I would call this "steeping", not boiling.

Anyway, this method has been working for me for a long time (as I've shown), so if ain't broke I'm not going to fix it.


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Invisiblegubi
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: FooMan]
    #8645664 - 07/17/08 03:04 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Agreed Fooman, I just did this a couple hours ago and had a thermometer in the water, as soon as I added the boiling water to the wbs in my bucket the temp dropped to 190 right away. I had maybe 4 or 5 busted seeds in the whole 6qt batch (I searched for them). I layed them out on a huge screen in 1 layer to check the results. As for the draining part, uhg, it took me about 2 hours to get the moisture perfect. They're in the pc as I type at 15psi for 60min. Hopefully I don't get a whole batch of busted seeds again this time around.:mad2:

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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: DJYoshaBYD]
    #8645803 - 07/17/08 05:50 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

My method I use:

Buy Rye.

Put rye in pot.

Wash.

Rinse.

Repeat.

Repeat.

Heat untill boiling.

Reduce to medium.

They are ready once the 'white' center of the rye is gone, and they looks ready to bust (and a few have)

Then I pour my whole pot onto a window screen held up by two chairs outside.

I then use the lovely summer sun to help me dry them, and a hair dryer too.


All in all, it takes about 1 hour total to process a bag of rye. I then PC at 120 mins and voila, perfect mushroom food.


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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: FooMan]
    #8645872 - 07/17/08 06:41 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

FooMan said:
As I state in the tek, I'm sure people will say that I'm not doing it the proper way, but it works for me and that's all I need. The main thing is to find out what works for your own situation and run with it despite what people say. :peace:




And THATS why my Title says what it says :grin:
:congrats:


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roby000 said: thats true a shotgun is almost like a college degree in a sense that if you show it to the right person at the right time you could make a lot of money.

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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: P.Menace]
    #8645934 - 07/17/08 07:10 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Well, I pced for 60min and..... Still got some grains that started to open up. They're not busted like the last time but some of them are definitely split open.
I don't get it. :frown:

*EDIT* Ok, actually I do get it. The heat is causing the wbs shell to get soft. So while in the pc it's easier for the seeds to bust as the shell has becomed weak. Just my guess, as the 1st time I did wbs I soaked for 24 hrs without simmer/steep and pc'd for 90mins and 0 seeds split open. But they got contamed my 1st try so I was just trying to figure out a different way. But I think they got contamed from me not pre-rinsing before I soaked. That wbs is some dirty shit. But what the hell do I know.


--------------------
I haven't failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.    ~ Thomas Edison

Edited by gubi (07/17/08 08:29 AM)

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OfflineP.Menace
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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: gubi]
    #8645963 - 07/17/08 07:27 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

shit... when i was processing grain I found it easiest and best (for me) to simply boil it like rice, about 45 minutes, no soak, and then allow it to drain overnight, when id get up in the morning i would then jar and begin PC'ing


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roby000 said: thats true a shotgun is almost like a college degree in a sense that if you show it to the right person at the right time you could make a lot of money.

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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: P.Menace]
    #8647526 - 07/17/08 03:21 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

dumping the grains into boiling water, and removing from heat does give some bursted kernels.. the key is to take it away from the heat. as soon as it is off hot burner, it drops in temp..

yes.. ANY bursted kernels suck balls.. a few are livable... but once you get your method down, you will not be breaking them as much..

if you are PCing and they are bursting still, then the pressure is too high, or the grains are too full.. lol.. they only burst when they cannot hold anymore, or if you are popping them like popcorn..

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Re: No-Soak WBS prep, and you... a side by side study.. hehe [Re: shevanel]
    #8648206 - 07/17/08 06:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shevanel said:
I've been following this thread for a few days now and I was interested in Foo's method because I've been getting my schedule screwed up from choosing the wrong days to begin soaking my seed.. (sometimes I have to throw seed out simply because I couldn't get to it in time after allowing it to soak 36+ hours.)

So tonight I decided to try the boiling water method. I rinsed and sifted 8lbs of wbs and loaded into a mesh straining bag. Boiled water in my 23qt Pc, turned off the heat and inserted the mesh bag into the hot water then placed the PC lid on.

After 2 hours of soaking in the hot water the seed still does not seem to be "ready" to use and I'm out of time so it's going to have to sit in there until 6am :shocked: ...

I don't have time to wait another hour or 2 and I cannot use the seed at it's current level of hydration so I guess we shall see what this mess will look like in the morning. It's only $2 of WBS so it's a cheap experiment to see whether or not I'll have usable grain or not.

:crazy2:




I couldn't get to the PC with the soaking grains until just now, almost 24 hours. I opened the pot to find a mess. Dark brown water and the smell of shit. I lifted the mesh bag out, took it outside and rinsed it for 5 mins using the garden hose and left it out to hang dry for a few.

I tested the grains and they look perfect, despite the extra long soaking time.

My conclusion is, when I soak my seed normally for 24 hours or even 36 hours, it's fine to use but still could use a bit more hydration.

the method I followed this time, dropping a mesh bag into a pot of hot water and allowing to soak til cool down (or longer) seems to be better than just a 36 hour soak or so.

I might try this method again, it seems efficient.

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