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InvisibleChronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
The Unchaning Self
    #8594840 - 07/04/08 12:56 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Throughout the years we learn to like & dislike certain things, we are given names & taught how to act in certain situations, learning right from wrong.
We form loving attachments to desirable objects and reject undesirable objects.
Then we start forming a personality of preferences, but all these preferences are for objects appearing before us, nothing original.

Through all our likes & dislikes & intellectual/mind conditioning we seem to become a rounded personality that we identify as "me". Due to this constricted identity based on objects we feel a sense of limitation, like "all this conditioning cant define who i really am", this leaves a feeling of unfullfillment as its all just passed on knowledge that changes, nothing permanently fulfilling.

This very basis for forming personality/identity shows that our identities are false, they are given identities, not who we really are.
We must always be who we really are, not defined by any objects.

We are all to some extent feeling like there is something within us that is not subject to change, our sense of Self. Even through childhood, teen years & adulthood where so much personality changes, there is a sense of unchanging Self that has been present all along.

"Im always me, it just seems like i change alot over the years, but somehow i'm always me!"

At not one point in your life can you look back and say "yes, that year of 1997 i was "me" but then i learned something new and became someone else" how can you ever become someone else!? You must always be you.

Imagine you had been adopted and raised by another family, would your personality be the same? Id bet not. But you'd still be "you" right!? There would still be a sense of unchanging Self even with an adopted conditioning.

Id suggest to everyone here to find out who this unchanging Self is.

Who you are you before you started attaching?
Before any changing personality was formed?
Before you formed an identity with any object?
Even the most intimate object, your body, can not define who you are.

:rose:


--------------------

Edited by Chronic7 (07/04/08 01:06 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Chronic7]
    #8595054 - 07/04/08 02:01 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Id suggest to everyone here to find out who this unchanging Self is.


I am that I am. I AM the Icelander.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineBoots
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Chronic7]
    #8595056 - 07/04/08 02:03 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

It's just a way to stay grounded. The word doesn't mean all that much. I believe there was a thread here awhile ago that talked about an ever-changing identity and how we are not the same, day-to-day, because we are always taking in new information that essentially changes us completely.

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InvisibleChronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Boots]
    #8595098 - 07/04/08 02:20 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Boots said:
because we are always taking in new information that essentially changes us completely.




This is my point, you say "new information that essentially changes us completely"

I have no doubt that what we are essentially does not change, don't you have the sense that you are the same person you were 10 years ago?

We dont need to define ourselves in external objects, the only reason we attach to external objects is for happyness, when the happyness is inside us already and all objectives do is return us to our natural Self.

This is why by not touching any object and keeping your attention on the Self that is unchanging you reach the highest bliss

:peace:


--------------------

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Icelander]
    #8595175 - 07/04/08 02:50 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Id suggest to everyone here to find out who this unchanging Self is.


I am that I am. I AM the Icelander.




Look at the title of this thread!

I am still trying to figure out who the unCHANing self is...


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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OfflineSatChitAnanda
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Rose]
    #8595312 - 07/04/08 03:32 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

"Everyone feeds you what you are not"~Adyashanti

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Rose]
    #8595393 - 07/04/08 03:57 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Id suggest to everyone here to find out who this unchanging Self is.


I am that I am. I AM the Icelander.




Look at the title of this thread!

I am still trying to figure out who the unCHANing self is...




I don't expect much from the modern educational system.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: SatChitAnanda]
    #8595968 - 07/04/08 08:39 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

"Awareness can be a real bitch at a certain point in this process." ~ Adyashanti

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Chronic7]
    #8596554 - 07/05/08 03:09 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
Quote:

Boots said:
because we are always taking in new information that essentially changes us completely.




This is my point, you say "new information that essentially changes us completely"

I have no doubt that what we are essentially does not change, don't you have the sense that you are the same person you were 10 years ago?

We dont need to define ourselves in external objects, the only reason we attach to external objects is for happyness, when the happyness is inside us already and all objectives do is return us to our natural Self.

This is why by not touching any object and keeping your attention on the Self that is unchanging you reach the highest bliss

:peace:



We only seem like the same person, because we relate to the memory's of our past self. Even with memory's of very significant events where the memory seems exceptionally vivid we still remember with our current perspective. I have a ton of memory's from when I was 2 or 3 at the most, but when I think about it my perspective isnt a baby's perspective its my own. If you keep a notebook of your thoughts, and daily notes for long enough it eventually feels like you're reading somone elses thoughts. Even my notebooks from 10 years ago seem like a completely different person with different thoughts, and a different style of writing.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

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InvisibleChronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8596623 - 07/05/08 05:36 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

If who you take to be you is what you've learned and your personality, then fear of death will rule your life.
You may not realize it but all actions of the ego are in defensiveness of the fear of death.
When you fully realize you are not personality but you are what accepted the idea of a changing personality, then you are free of all this.

Just simply look...how can you be personality if you observe personality?
Doesn't that mean your the observer before personality was formed, & you took on the idea of being a personality?

I suppose many are just still enjoying the idea of becoming something different, id suggest inspecting this idea and seeing if its real because i can assure you whatever you collect in this life will be lost at some point in time. Nothing stays with what you are, not even a history or any story.
Not to say don't collect or that objects are bad, just dont attach & define yourself in all these objects.

These objects are here to trick you to get you to define yourself in them, don't buy it!!!

:peace:


--------------------

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OfflineSatChitAnanda
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Chronic7]
    #8596676 - 07/05/08 07:08 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

It's all just fireworks, and all fireworks come and go.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Chronic7]
    #8596693 - 07/05/08 07:45 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I think that it really is good to look for a core,
for a thing that was there before,
the rest of the logical entanglement as presented is too fancy,
and it gets garbled by an effort to train self and others.
take it easy, visit your good ideas gently.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleChronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8596726 - 07/05/08 08:14 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SatChitAnanda said:
It's all just fireworks, and all fireworks come and go.




Nice analogy, what sees the fireworks? :grin:

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I think that it really is good to look for a core,
for a thing that was there before,
the rest of the logical entanglement as presented is too fancy,
and it gets garbled by an effort to train self and others.
take it easy, visit your good ideas gently.




after all the things we look for in life it all ends up looking for the core, the power of maya is there to keep us from doing so, but all beings eventually realize this, the evolution of consciousness is merely an evolution to awareness, the joke being consciousness is never not aware!

:peace:


--------------------

Edited by Chronic7 (07/05/08 08:25 AM)

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OfflineSatChitAnanda
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Chronic7]
    #8596753 - 07/05/08 08:35 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

What sees the fireworks? That is the million dollar question

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InvisibleChronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: SatChitAnanda]
    #8596769 - 07/05/08 08:46 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SatChitAnanda said:
What sees the fireworks? That is the million dollar question




Stay with the question & don't wait for any answers, just stay with the seeing.

Try this for a couple of minutes please, im sure you will enjoy it  :psychsplit:


--------------------

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OfflineSatChitAnanda
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Chronic7]
    #8596870 - 07/05/08 09:42 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

On the relative side of the street, there is work to be done.

As Don Juan said, not in these exact words, "There are a million paths out there that all lead to no where, the only difference is that some fortify the heart and others do not. Only choose a path that is heart centered."

It is easy to become enlightened, it is hard to be a truly noble and compassionate person.

All the meditating and self-inquiry in the world is not enough to alleviate and heal our inner wounds and unconscious, shadow material. Wilber says openly, "There are alot of enlightened dickheads out there".

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InvisibleChronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: SatChitAnanda]
    #8596909 - 07/05/08 10:04 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SatChitAnanda said:
On the relative side of the street, there is work to be done.

As Don Juan said, not in these exact words, "There are a million paths out there that all lead to no where, the only difference is that some fortify the heart and others do not. Only choose a path that is heart centered."

It is easy to become enlightened, it is hard to be a truly noble and compassionate person.

All the meditating and self-inquiry in the world is not enough to alleviate and heal our inner wounds and unconscious, shadow material. Wilber says openly, "There are alot of enlightened dickheads out there".




Would an enlightened person call someone a dickhead?

Thats how i know im not fully enlightened, sumone cuts me up in theyre car they will more than likely get called a cunt. But i recognize this as "woah, where id that come from" and it happens less & less, some would enjoy calling someone a cunt, i used to! I feel sick when i do it now.

I dont agree that being compassionate is hard, its hard to hate people, as that takes alot of energy and it's so draining, because "you" have to hate, there has to be a "you" to hate "other", loving is the simplest thing to do as there is no-one to do it, it just is.

The belief that we have to do something to find love or be loved is the biggest lie we tell ourselves.

I agree that people dont seem to put theyre knowledge into practice, but really we all know better but dont do better.

:peace:


--------------------

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: The Unchanging Self [Re: Chronic7]
    #8597483 - 07/05/08 01:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:

Would an enlightened person call someone a dickhead?






Would an enlightened person flood this forum with posts?

Would an enlightened person preach?

Would an enlightened person offer answers even when there were none?

Do enlightened people really exist?


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Chronic7]
    #8597733 - 07/05/08 03:17 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
If who you take to be you is what you've learned and your personality, then fear of death will rule your life.





I have died, and its not such a scary thing. Your assumptions are way off on that one.

Quote:


You may not realize it but all actions of the ego are in defensiveness of the fear of death.




Source? Its easy to make blanket statements, but what do you have to back it up?

Quote:


When you fully realize you are not personality but you are what accepted the idea of a changing personality, then you are free of all this.

Just simply look...how can you be personality if you observe personality?
Doesn't that mean your the observer before personality was formed, & you took on the idea of being a personality?




Only if you start with the assumption that these are two separate things. Aside from "my" own tendency to see myself as an individual, I see know evidence to suggest "I" am anything more than a series of decisions.

Quote:


I suppose many are just still enjoying the idea of becoming something different, id suggest inspecting this idea and seeing if its real because i can assure you whatever you collect in this life will be lost at some point in time. Nothing stays with what you are, not even a history or any story.
Not to say don't collect or that objects are bad, just dont attach & define yourself in all these objects.




One thing I've learned from being involved with buddhism for my entire life is that anytime someone starts spouting black and white generalizations about everyone its a good idea to walk away. The one thing that stands consistent with buddhism, and every other similar method concerned with consciousness is the lack of universal statements about individuals. You can never know how the world is through my eyes just as I can never know how it appears through yours. With that in mind it is completely irrational to believe that you could somehow define what another's motivations and hang ups are, especially without even meating them.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Unchanging Self [Re: Rose]
    #8597769 - 07/05/08 03:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Quote:

Chronic777 said:

Would an enlightened person call someone a dickhead?






Would an enlightened person flood this forum with posts?

Would an enlightened person preach?

Would an enlightened person offer answers even when there were none?

Do enlightened people really exist?




Good point! Enlightenment as it is portrayed on these forums is a form of self-importance. :monkeydance: The difference being that those caught up in it are pretending they don't have any. :tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8597772 - 07/05/08 03:30 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I have died, and its not such a scary thing.

:tongue::rofl2: If you had died you wouldn't be posting here.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Icelander]
    #8597787 - 07/05/08 03:33 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

People die, and come back to life all the time.:shrug:


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8597799 - 07/05/08 03:36 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:


Source? Its easy to make blanket statements, but what do you have to back it up?






--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Rose]
    #8597808 - 07/05/08 03:41 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

:rofl2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineSatChitAnanda
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Re: The Unchanging Self [Re: Icelander]
    #8597888 - 07/05/08 04:09 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

There seems to be this idea that enlightenment is this stupified blissful state, white robes, angels perhaps, hands that heal.

It is common for spiritual seekers to succumb to this spiritual persona. I indeed had my holy phase. Eventually, the seeking and the spiritual seeker dies, like a fire burning itself out, and allowing life to flow more and more, more and more. Allowing this to express itself however which way it wants to.

Like the iconic Hindu image of Shakti, the turbulant, chaotic forms of expression standing ontop of the dead corpse of Shiva, the unmoving, formless, unchanging witness. Shakti holds a dagger and the heads of many beheaded men, Shiva however lays there, blissfully grinning with a rock solid erection.

There is nothing wrong with having a bad day, getting angry at someone for cutting you off in traffic, there is nothing profane in existence. We want to love all this, all of Shaktis forms of expression, loving what simply is. Calling someone a dickhead is as sacred as jello pudding and debating on message boards.

To fortify the heart however, this is a different story, there is work to be done. Detaching just won't do. Piles of unconscious material and inner wounds still remain, driving our habitual patterns and sometimes pathological developments. All the meditating in the world won't do anything except witness them and detach from them.

However to fortify the heart is perhaps another discussion. This is my understanding, which is always changing and always discovering.. who knows.

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Rose]
    #8597896 - 07/05/08 04:12 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Quote:

blewmeanie said:


Source? Its easy to make blanket statements, but what do you have to back it up?








http://www.newsweek.com/id/32982 :grin:

No problem.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8597936 - 07/05/08 04:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Cardiac arrest is not death. Brain death is death. Try again.

Also Newsweek is not a very reputable source. Try to find scientific studies. These folk are not dead but unconscious and near death. There's a huge difference.

Edited by Icelander (07/05/08 04:51 PM)

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Icelander]
    #8598036 - 07/05/08 05:06 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Cardiac arrest is not death. Brain death is death. Try again.

Also Newsweek is not a very reputable source. Try to find scientific studies. These folk are not dead but unconscious and near death. There's a huge difference.




Brain death does not constitute death, brain dead patients survive in a vegetative state all the time. Death is merely an abstract concept impossible to universally define, first everyone would have to agree on exactly what life is.

Resuscitation after even brain death is a well known phenomena, feel free to do a google search yourself. I wasnt making any kind of statement about what life or death is, and I dont feel obligated to educate you or quote any source material on what is an essentially a vaguely defined opinion.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8598065 - 07/05/08 05:19 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:


I have died, and its not such a scary thing. Your assumptions are way off on that one.






So what the fuck were you talking about when you said ^ ???


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8598079 - 07/05/08 05:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Googled.

Brain Dead Means Dead
Kristen Philipkoski Email 04.09.01

If someone is brain dead, the person is dead, period.

This fact can be hard to accept, particularly when a patient might look very much alive to family members. Brain dead people often still have a heartbeat, and their chests may rise and fall with the help of a ventilator, sometimes giving hope to grieving families that the person may suddenly wake up.

This false hope, some experts believe, prevents people from donating organs. People fear that their organs, or those of their loved ones, might be taken before they're actually dead. Some suspect a doctor might "pull the plug" prematurely to harvest their organs.

"It comes up all the time," said Von Roebuck, spokesman for the California Transplant Donor Network. "It's a dire myth. One must remember that if you're in a critical situation, every effort is going to be made to save your life whether you're a donor or not."

This myth and others, such as the misconception that many religions are against donation, contribute to a deficit of about 75,000 organs in the United States. About 6,000 of the patients who wait for these organs die every year.

"The utility of using dead bodies is growing, as is the tragedy of not using them," said Dr. Stuart Youngner, director of the Center for Biomedical Ethics at Case Western University. Youngner spoke at a seminar last month for journalists on covering biotechnology held by the Foundation for American Communications.

Harvard Medical School officials conceived the term "brain dead" in a 1968 paper. Officials there hoped to resolve a novel phenomenon: With new technology patients who were dead could still have a heartbeat -- and give the false impression that they were very much alive while kept on a ventilator.

All states have since recognized that doctors can use "brain death" as the sole criterion for determining that a patient has died. Doctors must perform various tests to verify brain death.

If the tests show brain activity, the patient may be in a coma or vegetative state. A brain dead person doesn't show brain activity.

"An individual who has been given this diagnosis is a corpse, not a patient," reads an article written in Community Ethics by Lance Stell, chief of medical ethics at the Carolinas Medical Center in Charlotte, North Carolina. "If it is ever appropriate for a physician to order treatment stopped unilaterally on grounds of futility, irrespective of what families or roving strangers may wish, this is it."

I wasnt making any kind of statement about what life or death is,

Then how is it that you claim that you were dead?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Rose]
    #8598092 - 07/05/08 05:31 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Quote:

blewmeanie said:


I have died, and its not such a scary thing. Your assumptions are way off on that one.






So what the fuck were you talking about when you said ^ ???



:shrug: because I have, I had an accident cliff diving when I was 16. Believe it or not, it doesnt really matter to me. My statement was about the fear of death, not death itself. Everyone isnt afraid.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8598113 - 07/05/08 05:45 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

My statement was about the fear of death, not death itself.

How are we supposed to know when you make a false statement and mean something very different.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Icelander]
    #8598117 - 07/05/08 05:45 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Googled.

Brain Dead Means Dead
Kristen Philipkoski Email 04.09.01

If someone is brain dead, the person is dead, period.

This fact can be hard to accept, particularly when a patient might look very much alive to family members. Brain dead people often still have a heartbeat, and their chests may rise and fall with the help of a ventilator, sometimes giving hope to grieving families that the person may suddenly wake up.

This false hope, some experts believe, prevents people from donating organs. People fear that their organs, or those of their loved ones, might be taken before they're actually dead. Some suspect a doctor might "pull the plug" prematurely to harvest their organs.

"It comes up all the time," said Von Roebuck, spokesman for the California Transplant Donor Network. "It's a dire myth. One must remember that if you're in a critical situation, every effort is going to be made to save your life whether you're a donor or not."

This myth and others, such as the misconception that many religions are against donation, contribute to a deficit of about 75,000 organs in the United States. About 6,000 of the patients who wait for these organs die every year.

"The utility of using dead bodies is growing, as is the tragedy of not using them," said Dr. Stuart Youngner, director of the Center for Biomedical Ethics at Case Western University. Youngner spoke at a seminar last month for journalists on covering biotechnology held by the Foundation for American Communications.

Harvard Medical School officials conceived the term "brain dead" in a 1968 paper. Officials there hoped to resolve a novel phenomenon: With new technology patients who were dead could still have a heartbeat -- and give the false impression that they were very much alive while kept on a ventilator.

All states have since recognized that doctors can use "brain death" as the sole criterion for determining that a patient has died. Doctors must perform various tests to verify brain death.

If the tests show brain activity, the patient may be in a coma or vegetative state. A brain dead person doesn't show brain activity.

"An individual who has been given this diagnosis is a corpse, not a patient," reads an article written in Community Ethics by Lance Stell, chief of medical ethics at the Carolinas Medical Center in Charlotte, North Carolina. "If it is ever appropriate for a physician to order treatment stopped unilaterally on grounds of futility, irrespective of what families or roving strangers may wish, this is it."

I wasnt making any kind of statement about what life or death is,

Then how is it that you claim that you were dead?



Legally, and medically the term brain death is only used when it is permanent, however people do recover even after all vital signs have stopped, and an encephalogram shows no activity. The only difference between the two being the the permanence of the former. If they were to recover it would no longer be called brain death.

I work in a university hospital, I'm not a medical professional, but I work around them, and in the same environment. I'm simply not going to debate the topic with you, if you choose to believe that no one is ever resuscitated after a brief period of brain death that is fine with me. Go talk to an ER doctor if you like.


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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8598123 - 07/05/08 05:49 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I'm not a medical professional, but I play one on TV.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Icelander]
    #8598135 - 07/05/08 05:54 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
My statement was about the fear of death, not death itself.

How are we supposed to know when you make a false statement and mean something very different.




Believe me or not, it makes no difference to me. Questioning the truth of my own perspective when relating to the OP's topic doesnt seem very conducive to conversation or debate though. Perhaps you have something valid of your own to add?


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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8598148 - 07/05/08 05:59 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I already posted earlier on this subject.

and

I don't feel too bad about questioning anyones conflicting statements.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Chronic7]
    #8598409 - 07/05/08 07:37 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
If who you take to be you is what you've learned and your personality, then fear of death will rule your life.
You may not realize it but all actions of the ego are in defensiveness of the fear of death.
When you fully realize you are not personality but you are what accepted the idea of a changing personality, then you are free of all this.




OOhhhh, here we go with all the fear of death crap....    :shitstorm:
Death is not the worst thing that can happen to a person....    :wink:


>^;;^<


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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #8600163 - 07/06/08 09:12 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Death is not the worst thing that can happen to a person....    :wink:



I don't remember anyone saying this.:tongue:

Most fear of death is unconscious IMO. Its really fear of not being (personality structure/ego) rather than dying itself or being dead.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Icelander]
    #8600168 - 07/06/08 09:15 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Your only afraid because you havent died yet.....unlike us already dead and back folks:tongue:


:grin:


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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8600521 - 07/06/08 11:51 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

i guarantee that enlightenment is not a state.
not a state of mind nor an unchanging state of anything else.

somehow it is related to this matter of a seemingly  unchanging self.

I have noticed that part of my witnessing self, seems to be there again every time i glance, but then it changes,
or i do, but then when i glance again I see it again for a moment.

it does not stay, unchanging, but it seems to always be there.

maybe when I see it I just see the shadow of it, and that is what is changing, like everything else in my mind, combining with other images and fading into the wall of memory.

maybe I never actually see anything, just the fading evidence of ideas and sensations.

but this one is curious, encouraging, fluid, and abiding. maybe this is what people are talking about?


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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8601323 - 07/06/08 04:32 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
Your only afraid because you havent died yet.....unlike us already dead and back folks:tongue:


:grin:




OK... I'll bite.

I wanna' hear your near death story.

I find this shit interesting as hell.


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Re: The Unchanging Self [Re: Icelander]
    #8602601 - 07/06/08 10:49 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Death is not the worst thing that can happen to a person....    :wink:
.
I don't remember anyone saying this.:tongue:
.
Most fear of death is unconscious IMO. Its really fear of not being (personality structure/ego) rather than dying itself or being dead.




:grin:
It just seems like a person would fear THEE worst thing that could happen to a person....
Experiencing constant and/or extreme pain is a function that can override the ego's unconscious fear of one's own death....
Dr. Kevorkian ideology, or suicidal reasoning for examples....        :shrug:
If they have accepted to die by decisive intended purposes, it is prolly~ because they fear living more than they fear death....

I just don't think that everyone fits under the "fear of death is the cause for everything we do" umbrella, that's all....  :ohwell:
And DaMMiT, it is always raining....!   
:shitstorm:

:lol:


>^;;^<


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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8603416 - 07/07/08 08:40 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
Your only afraid because you havent died yet.....unlike us already dead and back folks:tongue:


:grin:




Mental illness and delusions of grander does not constitute spirituality.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Unchanging Self [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #8603419 - 07/07/08 08:42 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Death is not the worst thing that can happen to a person....    :wink:
.
I don't remember anyone saying this.:tongue:
.
Most fear of death is unconscious IMO. Its really fear of not being (personality structure/ego) rather than dying itself or being dead.




:grin:
It just seems like a person would fear THEE worst thing that could happen to a person....
Experiencing constant and/or extreme pain is a function that can override the ego's unconscious fear of one's own death....
Dr. Kevorkian ideology, or suicidal reasoning for examples....        :shrug:
If they have accepted to die by decisive intended purposes, it is prolly~ because they fear living more than they fear death....

I just don't think that everyone fits under the "fear of death is the cause for everything we do" umbrella, that's all....  :ohwell:
And DaMMiT, it is always raining....!   
:shitstorm:

:lol:


>^;;^<




Haven't we been over all this?  I'm not going to repeat this endlessly.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Icelander]
    #8603659 - 07/07/08 10:30 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

blewmeanie said:
Your only afraid because you havent died yet.....unlike us already dead and back folks:tongue:


:grin:




Mental illness and delusions of grander does not constitute spirituality.



Then how do you explain catholicism?  :rimshot:


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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8603732 - 07/07/08 11:02 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

same

pie in the sky god and life after death:crazy2:

all without evidence.

Good case for death anxiety being a moving force in humanity.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (07/07/08 11:04 AM)

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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Icelander]
    #8603781 - 07/07/08 11:14 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Nah, I'm pretty sure its just a moral hang up over the suppressed desire to consume the flesh of a jew.


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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8603795 - 07/07/08 11:18 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I love eating Jewish girls.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Icelander]
    #8603812 - 07/07/08 11:22 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

all without evidence.

Possibly, there are (drug?)experiences that produce and inspire the bulk of material which is/are, imo, taken mistakenly literally.:confused:


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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8603818 - 07/07/08 11:24 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

When someone is brain dead, it means there is no blood flow or oxygen to their brain and that their brain is no longer functioning in any capacity and never will again.




http://www.transweb.org/reference/articles/donation/b_death.html

Quote:

In simple terms, brain death is the irreversible end of all brain activity (including involuntary activity necessary to sustain life) due to total necrosis of the cerebral neurons following loss of blood flow and oxygenation




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_death

If you (or any other human) were truly brain dead, you would not recover.  Being comatose is NOT the same thing as being brain dead, nor is a temporary lapse of brain activity.

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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8603841 - 07/07/08 11:32 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

maybe I never actually see anything, just the fading evidence of ideas and sensations.





This is SO true, seriously you hit it on the head, all things seen are just appearances that come & then go.

The screen they appear on is the Self, the unchanging awareness in all beings, which never changes & is never affected by what appears on the screen.

Thats why non-attachment etc lets you fall back into the screen/Self, not that we ever left it but a certain recognition happens that what appears on the screen is not what I Am.

Impermanence is the key to all this, just witness the obvious fact that everything comes & goes in the space of your own awareness, so then you stop touching/attaching to what comes & goes & just stay as the awareness!

Eventually you come into a space where nothing ever happens to what I Am, yet everything happens within what I Am.

:rose:


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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Chronic7]
    #8604026 - 07/07/08 12:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

can you say it with fewer words?
we are overloading the nail's head


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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8604123 - 07/07/08 01:01 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
can you say it with fewer words?
we are overloading the nail's head




Hahaha... I was thinking the same thing.

We don't have to talk in circles in here. Most people here in this Forum have already taken Zen 101.


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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Rose]
    #8604373 - 07/07/08 02:30 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I could say it with no words but would anyone listen? :grin:

I thought words were why we're here typing?

Im just bored at work tbh & if theres one thing i love talking about its truth

:peace:


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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Chronic7]
    #8604402 - 07/07/08 02:39 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I don't blame you for your beliefs.

Nor do I blame you for having fun and killing time at work.

There is simply no reason to come in here and "Preach the truth".

Many of us old farts fondly remember when we talked the same way...

You'll get over it.

We all do.


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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Rose]
    #8604424 - 07/07/08 02:47 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Dude im not preaching!

TBH the only people who feel "preached" to are egos.

Otherwise why would they get defensive?
Im not saying YOU are, but in general whats wrong with what i say?
Im not preaching to anyone, i dont see myself ringing peoples doorbells asking if they've found god or standing on a street corner with a bell, im in a discussion forum!?

Im not getting big headed AT ALL when i say this but a few people PM me saying they really enjoy my posts so i dont see any problem at all with what i talk about.
I dont think you do either, maybe your just sick of hearing it?

Would you rather i make a topic about some fundamentalist group screwing something up?

Its philosophy & spirituality, im talking about both.

Would would be your topic of choice? :shrug:


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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Chronic7]
    #8604534 - 07/07/08 03:23 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

We must always be who we really are, not defined by any objects.

You must always be you.

Id suggest to everyone here to find out who this unchanging Self is.


don't you have the sense that you are the same person you were 10 years ago?

This is why by not touching any object and keeping your attention on the Self that is unchanging you reach the highest bliss

Even my notebooks from 10 years ago seem like a completely different person with different thoughts, and a different style of writing.


When you fully realize you are not personality but you are what accepted the idea of a changing personality, then you are free of all this.

Just simply look...how can you be personality if you observe personality?


id suggest inspecting this idea and seeing if its real because i can assure you whatever you collect in this life will be lost at some point in time. Nothing stays with what you are, not even a history or any story.
Not to say don't collect or that objects are bad, just dont attach & define yourself in all these objects.


the power of maya is there to keep us from doing so, but all beings eventually realize this, the evolution of consciousness is merely an evolution to awareness, the joke being consciousness is never not aware!



Stay with the question & don't wait for any answers, just stay with the seeing.

Try this for a couple of minutes please




Dat is not preaching??  I say you make your own youtube arsenal, pamphlets, or whatever...  And do your thing.  Yeehaw.:blazed:


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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Chronic7]
    #8604547 - 07/07/08 03:25 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

That reply was incongruous.

In other words, it did not seem like a reply to what I actually posted.

Talk all the Philosophy and Spirituality you want. You are in the right forum. But don't act surprised when somebody takes issue with the points you make. This is also, a forum where people are allowed to disagree.

You make a statement... others pick your statement apart.

That is how it works in here. Some of us actually find it fun.

Perhaps you should practice some detachment... 'cause your last post was a tad defensive.


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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Chronic7]
    #8604555 - 07/07/08 03:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Preach
  1.  To deliver a sermon.
  2. To give religious or moral instruction, especially in a tedious manner.

Sermon
  1.  A religious discourse delivered as part of a church service.
  2. An often lengthy and tedious speech of reproof or exhortation.


'Nuff said.

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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8604565 - 07/07/08 03:32 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I made a post wanting to help people realize the truth of absolute being, YOU take it as preaching. I cant forsee how you interpret it, some may say helpfull, some may say BS, some may say preachy.

If one person finds it helpful then so what if a few find it preachy?

Like i said the only one who feels "preached" to is the ego.

"Preachers" seem to invade peoples personal space & egos get offended, so i guess in that way i am a preacher as i want to demolish your personal space, i want to kill your sense of individuality :evil: But i only want to do this to alleiviate your suffering as all suffering is personal, when theres no personal there is only love & joy.

I like to use words to make people realize truth, some just like to bitch about everything or make small talk, i see words as powerful tools to spread truth.

I seem to recall you even saying some of my words helped you bftd?

Im bored of this now c u all in a few weeks!

:peace:


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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Chronic7]
    #8604611 - 07/07/08 03:44 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Bye...

So no church next week, then?


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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Veritas]
    #8604663 - 07/07/08 03:58 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Preach
  1.  To deliver a sermon.
  2. To give religious or moral instruction, especially in a tedious manner.

Sermon
  1.  A religious discourse delivered as part of a church service.
  2. An often lengthy and tedious speech of reproof or exhortation.


'Nuff said.




Good old enlgish dictionary, always there isn't it, to tell us what we really mean!

I didnt give a sermon or religious instruction  :shrug:
(you may take it as tedious, thats personal preference)

I mean you lot know what i talk about why not just ignore the thread?
Oh i forgot! You actually enjoy this!
I thought philosophy was the search for veritas?
How wrong i was, i'm sure your dictionary can correct me?

Instead of commenting on the actual subject of the thread & what it points to we get into discussions about how its worded! :lol:

Its all fun, egos saying they're better than other egos, other egos calling other egos big egos. I suppose the point of discussion IS ego.

"my POV is better than yours"

I guess we can find solace in the fact that all of our POV's will be gone one day, and they don't actually count for anything when seen in the bigger picture, does the universe actually care what we think about it?

:peace:


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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Chronic7]
    #8604689 - 07/07/08 04:05 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:

Im bored of this now c u all in a few weeks!






Hmmmm...


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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Rose]
    #8604695 - 07/07/08 04:07 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

LOL you really want me to fuck off dont you?

Ive said similar things in the past but i always return, its trying to speak about the unspeakable subjective reality, then people who are so taken in by the objective reality go all oxford old on me so i get fed up & leave for a bit

Ill be back (in this forum/P&S) soon, just not for a while

:peace:


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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Chronic7]
    #8604706 - 07/07/08 04:11 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

he wants to get in yo head

make you lose the cool

nothing beats these sweet moments of tension

if you take the role of a guru... know that there will be those who wish to dethrone you

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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Chronic7]
    #8604707 - 07/07/08 04:11 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

No.

It is slow in here today.

I'm glad you're still around.

I was just doing what I like to do in here. I took what you said and showed you why it wasn't true.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Offlinexshadowmage666x
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Boots]
    #8604708 - 07/07/08 04:11 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Boots said:
It's just a way to stay grounded. The word doesn't mean all that much. I believe there was a thread here awhile ago that talked about an ever-changing identity and how we are not the same, day-to-day, because we are always taking in new information that essentially changes us completely.




i think i would agree with this thought

and i really liked this article..:thumbup:


--------------------

"It is the prayer of my innermost being to realize my supreme identity in the liberated play of consciousness, the Vast Expanse. Now is the moment, Here is the place of Liberation. " -alex grey

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Chronic7]
    #8604728 - 07/07/08 04:17 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
Ive said similar things in the past but i always return, its trying to speak about the unspeakable subjective reality, then people who are so taken in by the objective reality go all oxford old on me so i get fed up & leave for a bit






How unlike the Buddha...

Sigh...

You have pretty thoughts... but just 'cause they look good and smell nice doesn't make 'em true.

You say you are speaking the unspeakable.

Bullshit.

Many before you have spoken more clearly than you have on the subject of Zen.

Saying you can't speak about it is a cop out.

You obviously can speak about it.

Now practice speaking clearly.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: The Unchanging Self [Re: Icelander]
    #8604824 - 07/07/08 04:44 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Haven't we been over all this?  I'm not going to repeat this endlessly.




Then why did you reply to me on this specific topic....?    :smirk:
I don't agree with your opinion....  :shrug:

You WILL repeat it endlessly, until a day comes that you change your opinion about it.... 
Your repetition is why I asked you....      :wink:

:monkeydance:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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InvisibleChronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Rose]
    #8604854 - 07/07/08 04:49 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I have never even read about Zen? I know buddhism but not Zen particularly.
I never said im speaking the unspeakable, i said im trying to, which is impossible. Ask any being who has even glimpsed absolute truth for a second and ask them if ANY word can describe that place. It is utterly impossible.

Words like nirvana, tao, brahman, unmanifest & emptiness have been used, lao tzu said

"the tao that can be speaked, is not the eternal tao"

Its is wordless timeless & impossible to conceptualize.

Ive spoken onit as clearly as i can at this moment in time, im sorry it doesnt meet your standards :shrug: Words can only come from that & point the mind back to that.
But ultimately all thought must be left behind as thoughts are objects which cant capture pure subjectivity. I DO like trying though & some evidently find this annoying.

Of course many more have spoken more clearly than me, awakening has only been present here for the last few months. I don't think i should have to feel bad for trying to express, so i wont :grin: It feels natural for me to say what i say so let it be said right? Vice versa.

I just sometimes get the impression some people here would rather everyone who doesn't hold belief in the logic of the "rational" mind to piss off and leave this place full of cynical scientific doubters, instead of what id consider to be real thinkers, those who go beyond mind, those who use thinking to go beyond general human thinking.

Like someone great said

"evolve or die"

:peace:


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Chronic7]
    #8605007 - 07/07/08 05:25 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
Ask any being who has even glimpsed absolute truth for a second and ask them if ANY word can describe that place. It is utterly impossible.




Bullshit. Again... this is a mushroom board... many of us have had similar experiences. We talk about them all the time.


Quote:


Words like nirvana, tao, brahman, unmanifest & emptiness have been used, lao tzu said

"the tao that can be speaked, is not the eternal tao"





No shit.

That is like saying a picture of a naked woman is not a real naked woman.

Sometimes people overthink this stuff.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Rose]
    #8605028 - 07/07/08 05:31 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Quote:

Chronic777 said:
Ask any being who has even glimpsed absolute truth for a second and ask them if ANY word can describe that place. It is utterly impossible.




Bullshit. Again... this is a mushroom board... many of us have had similar experiences. We talk about them all the time.


Quote:


Words like nirvana, tao, brahman, unmanifest & emptiness have been used, lao tzu said

"the tao that can be speaked, is not the eternal tao"





No shit.

That is like saying a picture of a naked woman is not a real naked woman.

Sometimes people overthink this stuff.




:lol:

Chronic:  One ego to another...  Recognize.  Please.:sorry:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Chronic7]
    #8605773 - 07/07/08 08:26 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

if theres one thing i love talking about its truth


"you can't handle the truth"


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Chronic7]
    #8607024 - 07/08/08 04:12 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

when it gets personal
let it roll away


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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