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Offlineblackegg
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Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll.
    #8590377 - 07/03/08 03:26 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I'm telling you that stroke shook something loose in this guys head,
or maybe it was the whole (whispers)...y'know 'Vietnam' thing....



WhaChooTalkinBoutWillis?


http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/

Quote:

CNN) – John McCain says he never acted inappropriately toward a one time associate of Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega, contradicting a recent claim made by one of the Arizona senator's Republican colleagues.

Mississippi Sen. Thad Cochran told his hometown newspaper earlier this week that during a 1987 trip to Central America, he personally witnessed McCain grab an Ortega associate by his shirt collar to lift him out of a chair.

"McCain was down at the end of the table and we were talking to the head of the guerrilla group here at this end of the table and I don't know what attracted my attention," Cochran told The Sun Herald of Biloxi, Mississippi. "But I saw some kind of quick movement at the bottom of the table and I looked down there and John had reached over and grabbed this guy by the shirt collar and had snatched him up like he was throwing him up out of the chair to tell him what he thought about him or whatever."

"I don't know what he was telling him, but I thought, 'Good grief, everybody around here has got guns and we were there on a diplomatic mission.' I don't know what had happened to provoke John, but he obviously got mad at the guy," Cochran added.

Speaking to reporters in Colombia Wednesday, the presumptive Republican presidential nominee flatly denied the report, calling it "simply not true."

"I had many, many meetings with the Sandinistas," McCain said. "I must say, I did not admire the Sandinistas much. But there was never anything of that nature. It just didn't happen."

McCain has long faced criticism for his at-times hot temper, and he has especially clashed with Cochran over a variety of spending projects. The Mississippi Republican endorsed Mitt Romney's presidential bid last year and told the Boston Globe that "The thought of [McCain] being president sends a cold chill down my spine."

"He is erratic. He is hotheaded. He loses his temper and he worries me," Cochran told the paper in January.

Filed under: John McCain: Nutcase






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'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison

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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: blackegg]
    #8590389 - 07/03/08 03:33 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

and he denies it of course


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Offlineblackegg
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Re: McCain = Nutball. [Re: Coaster]
    #8590467 - 07/03/08 04:22 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Looking at McCain is like looking into the
eyes of a Vietnam flashback about to occur.

He fixes you with that one good eye and all bets are off...
is he gonna jump over the table and choke you out?
or will he pretend to chat idly until pinning your hand to the table with a salad fork?

See, you never know with this guy!

Have you seen this next clip?
He really loses his shit here and
berates this poor crying woman looking for
her missing family members, if you've got the patience and the stomach
....6:30 on is especially gruesome:


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: blackegg]
    #8590474 - 07/03/08 04:26 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

> "The thought of [McCain] being president sends a cold chill down my spine."

The only thing more depressing than McCain being president is knowing that if he isn't, then it means the other schmuck, Obama, is instead.  I hate these damned if you do, damned if you don't, sucks to be you, type of situations.  What I wouldn't give to see a good, decent, person (as opposed to a corrupt career politician) running for office...


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Just another spore in the wind.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: blackegg]
    #8590532 - 07/03/08 05:05 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I can't stand McCain, but this doesn't bother me. It's good to see someone still has some balls left in this country.

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Offlineblackegg
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: Redstorm]
    #8590657 - 07/03/08 06:29 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Takes a lot of balls to humiliate a grieving woman, that's for sure.:rolleyes:


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'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: McCain = Nutball. [Re: blackegg]
    #8591337 - 07/03/08 12:05 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blackegg said:
Have you seen this next clip?
He really loses his shit here and
berates this poor crying woman looking for
her missing family members, if you've got the patience and the stomach




you must have seen something I certainly missed, I saw a fairly angry man that remained pretty calm, he didnt berate her, just pointed out what she'd written and gave his opinion, maybe you posted the wrong video

look, is this him screaming and berating a reporter?



OMG... more McCain anger... I'm surprised he didnt throttle this guy




so do you guys have an issue with someone that can stand firm, I mean lets take a look at the boo hoo clinton, crying at the drop of a hat, how about the flounder we call Obama, sure he can memorize a speech and be a bit more dignified in social situations




or how angry he gets at the reporters without them even saying a word

&hl


or the waffles, think of the waffles


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: McCain = Nutball. [Re: blackegg]
    #8591502 - 07/03/08 01:20 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I wasn't talking about the woman; I was talking about the shit being shook out of a guerrilla.

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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: blackegg]
    #8591705 - 07/03/08 02:21 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Me and him enjoyed a session together in a CIA torture chamber interrogating terrorists.  He's definately the kind of man I would vote for for president.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: Luddite]
    #8591783 - 07/03/08 02:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I myself would prefer he not be around when I get to work.  I don't think he has the stomach for measures stronger than an endless ABBA clip.


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Offlineblackegg
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8591915 - 07/03/08 03:11 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, um, prisoner#1?
I have a questions for you:
Why is it that in all FIVE of your videos no one was even crying and no one got mad enough to just storm away from the arguement?

In fact a few of those were just random seeming videos of Barack talking.

You weren't trying to 'dilute' my 'message' were you?


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison

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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: blackegg]
    #8592229 - 07/03/08 04:34 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

blackegg, have you no shame or are you really unaware of the level of senility in your rants?  Anyway, you're the kind of person we like to make fun of on this forum.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: blackegg]
    #8592306 - 07/03/08 04:52 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blackegg said:
Yeah, um, prisoner#1?
I have a questions for you:
Why is it that in all FIVE of your videos no one was even crying and no one got mad enough to just storm away from the arguement?




because the woman McCain was speaking to is a whiney cunt that
gets her feeling hurt really easily, or aybe she was trying to
elicit sympathy, how can I be expected to answer the question
when I am none of those people, wheres the video of the man
that's supposedly roughing up sandanistas and losing his temper
I guess we all have different perceptions of anger, when I'm
angry you'll damned well know it

Quote:

In fact a few of those were just random seeming videos of Barack talking.




just as I've yet to see a video of McCain screaming at anyone,
it's just him talking and taking a firm stance as opposed to the
spineless candidate that says leave me alone, lemme come talk to
you I dont want to tarnish my image, incidentally obamas waffle
was sold on ebay, suppose there's a blackout on obama storming
out of the restaurant, kinda like the tape of his wife saying 'whitey'

Quote:

You weren't trying to 'dilute' my 'message' were you?




what message, you portrayed it as if McCain was actually
berating her, so what if her was agitated, that's far from the
persona that you were trying to put out. seems you're trying to
mislead people.

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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: Luddite]
    #8592328 - 07/03/08 04:58 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

u no mccain is really old and weak i dont even think he can shake a foregin dignitary even if he wanted to


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: Luddite]
    #8592398 - 07/03/08 05:10 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Luddite said:
Me and him enjoyed a session together in a CIA torture chamber interrogating terrorists.  He's definately the kind of man I would vote for for president.




Well of course you would... everyone likes a guy that thinks that Al Qaeda is in Iran.


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http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: downforpot]
    #8592460 - 07/03/08 05:27 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Well of course you would... everyone likes a guy that thinks that Al Qaeda is in Iran.




To what do you refer? You got a credible source that shows McCain saying Al Qaeda is in Iran?

They probably are in Iran, anyway. They're pretty near everywhere else. But even so, I'd like to see McCain's statement that there are Al Qaeda members in Iran.





Phred


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: Phred]
    #8592510 - 07/03/08 05:44 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

“We continue to be concerned about Iranian taking Al Qaeda into Iran, training them and sending them back,’’ Mr. McCain said at the news conference. Asked about that statement, Mr. McCain said: “Well, it’s common knowledge and has been reported in the media that Al Qaeda is going back into Iran and receiving training and are coming back into Iraq from Iran. That’s well known. And it’s unfortunate.




http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/18/mccain-misspeaks-on-iran-al-qaeda/

I have no clue whether or not he's right. Just giving you what you ask for.

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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: Phred]
    #8592766 - 07/03/08 07:14 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

Well of course you would... everyone likes a guy that thinks that Al Qaeda is in Iran.




To what do you refer? You got a credible source that shows McCain saying Al Qaeda is in Iran?

They probably are in Iran, anyway. They're pretty near everywhere else. But even so, I'd like to see McCain's statement that there are Al Qaeda members in Iran.





Phred




You want the video of him saying that and then Lieberman leaning over to him to correct him? LOL. Where were you a few months ago?


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: downforpot]
    #8592888 - 07/03/08 07:52 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Go ahead and look at that video you mention.  It is not about Al Qaeda.  Looks like you made a mistake, kind of like how McCain did...

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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: DieCommie]
    #8594506 - 07/04/08 10:58 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Go ahead and look at that video you mention.  It is not about Al Qaeda.  Looks like you made a mistake, kind of like how McCain did...




How is it not about Al Qaeda when he says that Iran is training Al Qaeda? Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6GBdyws5YU

Good job lying.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: downforpot]
    #8594538 - 07/04/08 11:14 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Go ahead and look at that video you mention.  It is not about Al Qaeda.  Looks like you made a mistake, kind of like how McCain did...




How is it not about Al Qaeda when he says that Iran is training Al Qaeda? Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6GBdyws5YU

Good job lying.




http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch2.htm

Quote:

Turabi sought to persuade Shiites and Sunnis to put aside their divisions and join against the common enemy. In late 1991 or 1992, discussions in Sudan between al Qaeda and Iranian operatives led to an informal agreement to cooperate in providing support-even if only training-for actions carried out primarily against Israel and the United States. Not long afterward, senior al Qaeda operatives and trainers traveled to Iran to receive training in explosives. In the fall of 1993, another such delegation went to the Bekaa Valley in Lebanon for further training in explosives as well as in intelligence and security. Bin Ladin reportedly showed particular interest in learning how to use truck bombs such as the one that had killed 241 U.S. Marines in Lebanon in 1983.The relationship between al Qaeda and Iran demonstrated that Sunni-Shia divisions did not necessarily pose an insurmountable barrier to cooperation in terrorist operations. As will be described in chapter 7, al Qaeda contacts with Iran continued in ensuing years.52




What makes you think McCain made a mistake?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8594599 - 07/04/08 11:38 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

What makes you think what was true 15 years ago is true now? I would imagine the speculation that makes you think it continues today is the same type of speculation that leads others to believe it does not.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: Redstorm]
    #8594614 - 07/04/08 11:44 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Fine.  I have no reason to believe McCain made a mistake.  I have some reason to believe he was correct.  I do not, however, have a beyond a reasonable doubt jury verdict.  Neither does anybody else.  Nor will one ever exist.  So to continue to make positive statements that McCain was mistaken is erroneous at best and dishonest in all likelihood.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8594618 - 07/04/08 11:47 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

In the absence of positive evidence, it is prudent to believe he is incorrect in matters with as much widespread importance as a country aiding a terrorist organization.

When dealing with warfare, false positives are obviously not acceptable.

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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8594629 - 07/04/08 11:51 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:


What makes you think McCain made a mistake?




Because even his buddy next to him felt that he made a mistake.... Iran does not train Al Qaeda.... everyone knows that except McCain prolly because he has Alzheimer's.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: Redstorm]
    #8594641 - 07/04/08 11:56 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
In the absence of positive evidence, it is prudent to believe he is incorrect in matters with as much widespread importance as a country aiding a terrorist organization.

When dealing with warfare, false positives are obviously not acceptable.




This is the fallacy of perfect intelligence gathering and a further elucidation of the failed notion that warfare is legally adjudicable and "actionable" is equivalent to "beyond a reasonable doubt".  This is a guaranteed way to lose a war.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8594645 - 07/04/08 11:58 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

It certainly is easier to win a war against Poland when you make the first strike and then indignantly state that you were struck first.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: downforpot]
    #8594650 - 07/04/08 12:00 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:


What makes you think McCain made a mistake?




Because even his buddy next to him felt that he made a mistake.... Iran does not train Al Qaeda.... everyone knows that except McCain prolly because he has Alzheimer's.




You continue to make statements you cannot back up.  I have provided evidence that there is strong reason to believe that they have trained al-Q and good reason to believe that they continue to do so.  You have provided no evidence of anything that actually refutes that other than a benighted belief that their sectarian differences are too great to allow cooperation.  This is demonstrably false.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8594653 - 07/04/08 12:02 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

downforpot said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:


What makes you think McCain made a mistake?




Because even his buddy next to him felt that he made a mistake.... Iran does not train Al Qaeda.... everyone knows that except McCain prolly because he has Alzheimer's.




You continue to make statements you cannot back up.  I have provided evidence that there is strong reason to believe that they have trained al-Q and good reason to believe that they continue to do so.  You have provided no evidence of anything that actually refutes that other than a benighted belief that their sectarian differences are too great to allow cooperation.  This is demonstrably false.




You have no evidence that they are currently doing it. None at all. By your logic Germany is still plotting to take over the world since they tried to do it in the past.

It's funny because we invaded Iraq because they were making WMD's.. So even though that was in the past it's okay to believe that they were still doing it even though there was no evidence. LOL. Stop living in the past.

Also, how can I not back up my statements? Are you saying Lieberman never corrected Alzheimer McCain?


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

Edited by downforpot (07/04/08 12:05 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: Redstorm]
    #8594656 - 07/04/08 12:02 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
It certainly is easier to win a war against Poland when you make the first strike and then indignantly state that you were struck first.




What's your point?  It is utterly irrelevant to my assertion that wars cannot be won employing the niceties of the US criminal justice standard for American citizens.  I suppose you would advocate a trial before taking any action.  Send in the lawyers.  How....silly.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8594659 - 07/04/08 12:04 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
It certainly is easier to win a war against Poland when you make the first strike and then indignantly state that you were struck first.




What's your point?  It is utterly irrelevant to my assertion that wars cannot be won employing the niceties of the US criminal justice standard for American citizens.  I suppose you would advocate a trial before taking any action.  Send in the lawyers.  How....silly.




Absurd misrepresentation of my statement.

I am of the belief that one should not base the decision to go to war on intelligence that is fifteen years old. That is just me, though. Others are free to hold that ridiculous view if it gets their jollies off.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: Redstorm]
    #8594701 - 07/04/08 12:20 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I don't think 15 year old intelligence had any relevance at all to Hitler's invasion of Poland.  Do you?

Nor do I think that anyone is making any decision to go to war with Iran solely on the basis of their support for terrorists, which support only seems to be in dispute regarding the particulars.  Nor is that in any way relevant to the argument I am making, which is that there is no reason whatsoever to conclude that McCain was mistaken in making ties between Iran and al-Q.  Because the 9/11 Commission certainly made those same connections regarding the intelligence available at the time of their investigation.

Known to a high degree of certainty

1.  Iran is acting in Iraq.
2.  Iran has aided and trained al-Q in the past despite their sectarian differences.
3.  Al-Q has a subsidiary operating, though not particularly well, in Iraq.

To know those things and yet positively assert that McCain was mistaken is just ludicrous.  Along with the lawyers I'd say send in the clowns but I think they're here already and they're running the Dem Party and the Media.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8594753 - 07/04/08 12:36 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Fact still remains that there is no proof that Iran is training Al Qaeda right now and sending them to Iraq.


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Then shot in his head
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Can't fuck with me again"

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: downforpot]
    #8594942 - 07/04/08 01:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:
Iran does not train Al Qaeda.... 





news papers says they are

http://www.nysun.com/foreign/iranians-training-qaeda-terrorists-to-attack-our/43442/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1534143/Iran-'is-training-the-next-al-Qa'eda-leaders'.html

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InvisibleTHE KRAT BARON
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Re: McCain = Nutball. [Re: Redstorm]
    #8595011 - 07/04/08 01:49 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
I wasn't talking about the woman; I was talking about the shit being shook out of a guerrilla.




:thumbup:

I have no idea why he would deny doing it. That is a pretty ballsy act while in a room full of guys with guns.


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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8595036 - 07/04/08 01:56 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

downforpot said:
Iran does not train Al Qaeda.... 





news papers says they are

http://www.nysun.com/foreign/iranians-training-qaeda-terrorists-to-attack-our/43442/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1534143/Iran-'is-training-the-next-al-Qa'eda-leaders'.html




So Lieberman is wrong?

And both of those articles are written by the same faggot.  "Coughlin has been criticized for writing highly controversial unsubstantiated articles that provide justification for British foreign policy, which have subsequently been proven false[5]. He has a history of accepting phoney stories from MI6 and then publishing articles in the name of fabricated sources. He was accused of publishing Black Propaganda[6] during the infamous libel proceedings brought against Daily Telegraph for the allegations he made about Libya's Saif Qaddafi (Colonel Gaddafi’s son)" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Con_Coughlin


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

Edited by downforpot (07/04/08 02:01 PM)

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: downforpot]
    #8595211 - 07/04/08 02:58 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:
So Lieberman is wrong?

And both of those articles are written by the same faggot. 





maybe

that's not very nice

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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8595230 - 07/04/08 03:05 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

downforpot said:
So Lieberman is wrong?

And both of those articles are written by the same faggot. 





maybe

that's not very nice




Well they are... The fuckhead is known for being a lying piece of shit.


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Can't fuck with me again"

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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: downforpot]
    #8595305 - 07/04/08 03:30 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

are you saying most of the mass media isnt?

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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8595424 - 07/04/08 04:07 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Depends. That guy specifically is known for bullshit.


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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: downforpot]
    #8595534 - 07/04/08 04:47 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Depends. That guy specifically is known for bullshit.




No he isn't. The partisan Leftie hack who wrote that attack piece for Wikipedia disputes some of Coughlin's work. The whole Wikipedia piece is peppered with *citation needed* warnings, and needs even more.

It's quite obvious from reading the Wikipedia piece that the guy who wrote it is a foaming at the mouth Guardian-brand moonbat. His "sources" - when he deigns to cite one - are Guardian opinion pieces.

Coughlin may be wrong on some of his reporting, but that Wikipedia rant gives nothing substantial to show he is wrong. On the other hand, his reporting is consistent with what the 9/11 Commission discovered and is also consistent with common sense. If forced to bet actual money, I'd choose Coughlin over anonymous Wiki moonbat in a split second.



Phred


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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: Phred]
    #8595539 - 07/04/08 04:49 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I was just gonna say 'care to show some proof?'

"Depends. That guy specifically is known for bullshit."

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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: Phred]
    #8595658 - 07/04/08 06:00 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

Depends. That guy specifically is known for bullshit.




No he isn't. The partisan Leftie hack who wrote that attack piece for Wikipedia disputes some of Coughlin's work. The whole Wikipedia piece is peppered with *citation needed* warnings, and needs even more.

It's quite obvious from reading the Wikipedia piece that the guy who wrote it is a foaming at the mouth Guardian-brand moonbat. His "sources" - when he deigns to cite one - are Guardian opinion pieces.

Coughlin may be wrong on some of his reporting, but that Wikipedia rant gives nothing substantial to show he is wrong. On the other hand, his reporting is consistent with what the 9/11 Commission discovered and is also consistent with common sense. If forced to bet actual money, I'd choose Coughlin over anonymous Wiki moonbat in a split second.



Phred




Refute the article then. Until then I will side with Lieberman for telling McCain that he doesn't know what the fuck he is talking about.

You would bet on a guy that said that Iraq had WMD's after we all found out it was bullshit? WOW. I guess I should start betting on people that don't know what the fuck they are talking about...


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

Edited by downforpot (07/04/08 06:03 PM)

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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: downforpot]
    #8595666 - 07/04/08 06:03 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:


Refute the article then. Until then I will side with Lieberman for telling McCain that he doesn't know what the fuck he is talking about.




Of course you will, because no matter what the facts are it suits your world view to do so.


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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8595826 - 07/04/08 07:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

downforpot said:


Refute the article then. Until then I will side with Lieberman for telling McCain that he doesn't know what the fuck he is talking about.




Of course you will, because no matter what the facts are it suits your world view to do so.




There are no facts... you do realize that you are depending on intelligence that is 15 years old? But I guess it suits your world view when you accepted intelligence that was also over a decade old which supported the attack on Iraq.

Hell, I bet you would use intelligence from 60 years ago to support an attack on Germany.


--------------------



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"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

Edited by downforpot (07/04/08 07:31 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: downforpot]
    #8595863 - 07/04/08 07:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I'm using intelligence from 5 years ago (the 9/11 Commission Report) to ridicule your assertion that Iran couldn't possibly be training al-Q because they are from different sects.  To you and your ilk there never are facts.  Just blather.  Nor am I using this information to argue for attacking Iran.  They've had it coming for almost 30 years and are begging for it again in light of their defiance of world opinion over their nukes.  But their training of al-Q is, though almost certain, not in itself grounds for destroying them.  A happy side justification but neither sufficient nor necessary, nor have I used it as such.


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Invisiblethedefone
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8596176 - 07/04/08 10:44 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

This is the fallacy of perfect intelligence gathering and a further elucidation of the failed notion that warfare is legally adjudicable and "actionable" is equivalent to "beyond a reasonable doubt".  This is a guaranteed way to lose a war.



The fallacy is that when presented with intelligence it is impossible to reasonably vette that information.  This administration is truly gifted at disregarding valid evidence in favor of totally unsupported intelligence from profoundly unreliable, and contradicted/contraindicated sources because it bolsters their incredibly weak case.  This is not fucking tiddlywinks, it's war.  Every time it is suggested that good, solid intelligence isn't mandatory before we send our best young men and women overseas to fight and die, it utterly degrades their service, and shows an absolute contempt for, and  patent dismissal of their value.  Disgusting.

Quote:

I have provided evidence that there is strong reason to believe that they have trained al-Q and good reason to believe that they continue to do so.



You have done no such thing.  The 9/11 commission is citing intelligence from the early 90's.  Just because a 5 year old article cites intelligence from 15 years ago, doesn't make that evidence only 5 years old.  Sorry!  Furthermore, the continuing collaboration alluded to in your quote (way) above, only details that Iran facilitated undocumented transportation of Qaeda operatives into and out of Afghanistan without the knowledge that these operatives were future 9/11 hijackers (link).  I read nothing about tactical, or operational training coming from Iran.  Stop misrepresenting your "evidence". 

Quote:

1.  Iran is acting in Iraq.
2.  Iran has aided and trained al-Q in the past despite their sectarian differences.
3.  Al-Q has a subsidiary operating, though not particularly well, in Iraq.



This is a total, and utter non-starter.  Until you demonstrate a DIRECT connection between Iranian involvement in Iraq directed against the U.S., and Qaeda operations, this train of thought is going to continue to look as patently absurd as it presently does.  Allow me to demonstrate how your reasoning works by slightly altering your words.

1.  The U.S. is acting in Iraq.
2.  The U.S. has aided and trained bin Laden forces in the past despite their differences.
3.  bin Laden's forces have a subsidiary operating, though not particularly well, in Iraq.

Well, that sums it up!  We're directly supporting Al-Qaeda in Iraq, and fighting ourselves, because in the 80's we gave Stinger missiles to the Mujihadeen.  Makes perfect sense to me..  And just think, my logic is actually based on reality!

Quote:

To know those things and yet positively assert that McCain was mistaken is just ludicrous.



No.  What's ludicrous is that you are defending the merits of a statement retracted on the spot by the speaker.  It's insanity!  The person who made the statement isn't even standing behind it, yet for some reason you have decided to support it.  Madness.

Quote:

To you and your ilk there never are facts.  Just blather.



As if..


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: thedefone]
    #8596719 - 07/05/08 08:10 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

McCain and most politicians have a habit of political correctness and pandering on the campaign trail that usually disappears behind closed doors.

The 9/11 Commission reviewed the intelligence from the 90s and subsequent information and concluded with high confidence that Iran was training al-Q during that time.  They didn't even attach any caveats to their conclusion. What do you have that offers the same high confidence that they weren't doing so?  Nothing at all.

Iranian agents are currently supporting militant elements in Iraq.  This is without question.  The Sadrists are militants.  They are getting Iranian support.  There can be no denying this.

Iran has a strong interest in imposing it's will in Iraq.  Another indisputable statement. 

Given these three things the only possible reasonable conclusion is that it is highly certain that Iran is (or, rather, has been since there isn't much al-q in Iraq left) training al-Q in Iraq.  Regardless of his retraction, it is most likely that McCain was correct.  It is certainly ludicrous to state with any degree of certainty that Iran is NOT training al_Q.  Also stupid.

The rest of your post is just irrelevant drivel about the US being there, or offering some rationale that the wonderful freedom loving Iranians should be acting in Iraq, or that nobody should or some other childishness that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Iran is or has been quite more than likely training al-Q in Iraq.  We may or may not one day know for a certainty to your standards (which seems to mean absolute) whether they did or not but one thing is certain.  The arguments against it consist of nothing more than "we haven't proved it".

As I stated earlier, this is not by any stretch acceptable to me as justification to blow their fascist terrorist asses into oblivion.  There are plenty of other reasons much stronger than this.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: thedefone]
    #8596794 - 07/05/08 08:58 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

thedefone said:
(way) above, only details that Iran facilitated undocumented transportation of Qaeda operatives into and out of Afghanistan without the knowledge that these operatives were future 9/11 hijackers (link).  I read nothing about tactical, or operational training coming from Iran.  Stop misrepresenting your "evidence".




This is strange.  Did you not read it?  I'll refresh your memory by reposting with the correct link and this time I'll bold the relevant sentences for you.
Quote:

Turabi sought to persuade Shiites and Sunnis to put aside their divisions and join against the common enemy. In late 1991 or 1992, discussions in Sudan between al Qaeda and Iranian operatives led to an informal agreement to cooperate in providing support-even if only training-for actions carried out primarily against Israel and the United States. Not long afterward, senior al Qaeda operatives and trainers traveled to Iran to receive training in explosives. In the fall of 1993, another such delegation went to the Bekaa Valley in Lebanon for further training in explosives as well as in intelligence and security. Bin Ladin reportedly showed particular interest in learning how to use truck bombs such as the one that had killed 241 U.S. Marines in Lebanon in 1983.The relationship between al Qaeda and Iran demonstrated that Sunni-Shia divisions did not necessarily pose an insurmountable barrier to cooperation in terrorist operations. As will be described in chapter 7, al Qaeda contacts with Iran continued in ensuing years.52
http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch2.htm





Now, what was McCain's supposed mistake again?  That Iran was training al-Q.  Not that they were arming them or transporting them or tactically assisting them.  No, he said they were training them.  If you are going to keep lying no one will pay any attention to you.

I particularly liked the other trick you tried to pull.  You embedded a link ("way") to my post that links to the portion of the report that mentions the training (see above Chapter2).  But then you embedded another link ("link"Chapter7) that has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion and isn't the link I used.  The link you embedded dealt with the period of time from Jan. 2000 until the 9/11 attacks.  Not relevant.  I never asserted that they trained them for that mission.  If I go fishing on Wednesday and catch a fish but then go fishing on Saturday and don't catch a fish it doesn't then mean that I never caught a fish on Wednesday.  And that little trick strikes me as being just as smelly as if I had left Wednesday's fish on the porch for several days.


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Invisiblethedefone
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8597047 - 07/05/08 11:05 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

You embedded a link ("way") to my post that links to the portion of the report that mentions the training (see above Chapter2).  But then you embedded another link ("link"Chapter7) that has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion and isn't the link I used.  The link you embedded dealt with the period of time from Jan. 2000 until the 9/11 attacks.  Not relevant.  I never asserted that they trained them for that mission.  If I go fishing on Wednesday and catch a fish but then go fishing on Saturday and don't catch a fish it doesn't then mean that I never caught a fish on Wednesday.



Not relevant because it goes against your argument?  I am sorry if you can't figure out that I am linking to the chapter (7) specifically referenced in the quote you have now posted twice. I guess directing people to evidence cited by your very own reference, or towards intelligence gathered within the last decade is somehow dishonest.  Perhaps you're the one who hasn't read the quote.  Allow me to extend your metaphor and point out that if I am hungry on Saturday, that fish from Wednesday is probably either gone, or rotten and is not going to feed me today.

Quote:

The 9/11 Commission reviewed the intelligence from the 90s and subsequent information and concluded with high confidence that Iran was training al-Q during that time.  They didn't even attach any caveats to their conclusion. What do you have that offers the same high confidence that they weren't doing so?  Nothing at all.

Iranian agents are currently supporting militant elements in Iraq.  This is without question.  The Sadrists are militants.  They are getting Iranian support.  There can be no denying this.

Iran has a strong interest in imposing it's will in Iraq.  Another indisputable statement.

Given these three things the only possible reasonable conclusion is that it is highly certain that Iran is (or, rather, has been since there isn't much al-q in Iraq left) training al-Q in Iraq.  Regardless of his retraction, it is most likely that McCain was correct.  It is certainly ludicrous to state with any degree of certainty that Iran is NOT training al_Q.  Also stupid.



The connection you make between Al-Qaeda and Al-Sadr is so incredibly weak it's laughable.  Just because Iran was training Al-Qaeda 15 years ago IS NOT PROOF that they are doing so today.  It is generally accepted that Iran is supporting the Sadr Brigades, and it is the truth that Iran seeks a stronger influence in Iraq.  However, your next conclusion that these two facts are proof that Iran is training Al-Qaeda, because it's what they were doing 15 years ago is what is truly ludicrous.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: thedefone]
    #8597342 - 07/05/08 12:47 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

thedefone said:
Quote:

You embedded a link ("way") to my post that links to the portion of the report that mentions the training (see above Chapter2).  But then you embedded another link ("link"Chapter7) that has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion and isn't the link I used.  The link you embedded dealt with the period of time from Jan. 2000 until the 9/11 attacks.  Not relevant.  I never asserted that they trained them for that mission.  If I go fishing on Wednesday and catch a fish but then go fishing on Saturday and don't catch a fish it doesn't then mean that I never caught a fish on Wednesday.



Not relevant because it goes against your argument?  I am sorry if you can't figure out that I am linking to the chapter (7) specifically referenced in the quote you have now posted twice. I guess directing people to evidence cited by your very own reference, or towards intelligence gathered within the last decade is somehow dishonest.  Perhaps you're the one who hasn't read the quote.  Allow me to extend your metaphor and point out that if I am hungry on Saturday, that fish from Wednesday is probably either gone, or rotten and is not going to feed me today.




Iran not training al_Q in 2000-2001 does not indicate in any way that they didn't train them in the mid '90s or after the Iraq invasion.  Hence it is irrelevant.  All I have to do is show that they had trained them in the past, any time at all in the past, which the Commission reports, to utterly destroy any argument that Iran will not help them due to sectarian differences.  It also bolsters the conclusion that they are quite willing to do so again and probably have.  If you have any reason to believe the 9/11 Commission was incorrect on this matter please provide some support.  Until then it can be accepted as almost certain truth.  They were rather circumspect in their assertions and provided caveats quite often when the intelligence was unclear.
Quote:



Quote:

The 9/11 Commission reviewed the intelligence from the 90s and subsequent information and concluded with high confidence that Iran was training al-Q during that time.  They didn't even attach any caveats to their conclusion. What do you have that offers the same high confidence that they weren't doing so?  Nothing at all.

Iranian agents are currently supporting militant elements in Iraq.  This is without question.  The Sadrists are militants.  They are getting Iranian support.  There can be no denying this.

Iran has a strong interest in imposing it's will in Iraq.  Another indisputable statement.

Given these three things the only possible reasonable conclusion is that it is highly certain that Iran is (or, rather, has been since there isn't much al-q in Iraq left) training al-Q in Iraq.  Regardless of his retraction, it is most likely that McCain was correct.  It is certainly ludicrous to state with any degree of certainty that Iran is NOT training al_Q.  Also stupid.



The connection you make between Al-Qaeda and Al-Sadr is so incredibly weak it's laughable.  Just because Iran was training Al-Qaeda 15 years ago IS NOT PROOF that they are doing so today.  It is generally accepted that Iran is supporting the Sadr Brigades, and it is the truth that Iran seeks a stronger influence in Iraq.  However, your next conclusion that these two facts are proof that Iran is training Al-Qaeda, because it's what they were doing 15 years ago is what is truly ludicrous.




And you now prove yourself utterly incapable of comprehending an English sentence.  I said repeatedly that there is no "proof".  "Highly certain" does not equal "proven".  Just a strong likelihood, a greater than 50% (much greater in my opinion) chance that McCain was entirely correct.  "We can't prove it" is not the equivalent of "It didn't happen".  Get over it.  The demand for "proof" in all things is a childish conceit which can only be afforded by a leisure class that is charged with nothing other than the preservation of its own egoism.  The demand for "proof" is exactly what paralyzed Clinton in destroying OBL when he had the chance.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8597865 - 07/05/08 03:59 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I'm using intelligence from 5 years ago (the 9/11 Commission Report) to ridicule your assertion that Iran couldn't possibly be training al-Q because they are from different sects.  To you and your ilk there never are facts.  Just blather.  Nor am I using this information to argue for attacking Iran.  They've had it coming for almost 30 years and are begging for it again in light of their defiance of world opinion over their nukes.  But their training of al-Q is, though almost certain, not in itself grounds for destroying them.  A happy side justification but neither sufficient nor necessary, nor have I used it as such.




You do realize that the 9/11 Commission Report's info on Iran was older than 5 years?  So Fact still remains that you are using old intelligence but then again you accepted OLD intelligence on Iraq... So I guess I shouldn't be surprised with you using obsolete information.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

Edited by downforpot (07/05/08 04:48 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: downforpot]
    #8605076 - 07/07/08 05:46 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:


You do realize that the 9/11 Commission Report's info on Iran was older than 5 years?  So Fact still remains that you are using old intelligence but then again you accepted OLD intelligence on Iraq... So I guess I shouldn't be surprised with you using obsolete information. 




Well no, I don't "realize" that, nor do I think that they didn't have later confirmation.  There's even later information.  With named sources.  Someone call the NY Times and tell them about that.
http://www.nysun.com/national/mccain-obama-clash-over-irans-al-qaeda-role/73277/

Quote:

The Sun, in a series of dispatches from northern Iraq and Baghdad, detailed claims that Iran has supported Al Qaeda in Iraq. One such dispatch, published on April 25, 2007, quoted the director of the security ministry for the Sulaimaniyah province, Sarkawt Hassan Jalal, as saying Iran had harbored the leadership of a group calling itself Al Qaeda in Kurdistan in five towns on the Iraqi border.




Quote:

A former commander of a group that has at times aligned with Al Qaeda in Iraq, the Islamic Army of Iraq, Abu Azzam al Tamimi, told Al Arabiya television on January 18, 2008, that Iran "interferes in every aspect in Iraq." When asked whom Iran supports, Mr. al Tamimi said, "Everybody — it works with the government, with the opponents of the government, with the opponents of the government's opponents, with Al-Qaeda, with the enemies of Al-Qaeda, with the militias, with the enemies of the militias ... Iran spreads its investments everywhere – with the Shiites, the Sunnis, and the Kurds," according to a translation by the Middle East Media Research Institute.




Quote:

The Sun also reported in July that a senior leadership or management council for Al Qaeda meets regularly in eastern Iran, according to the classified portion of the latest national intelligence estimate on Al Qaeda. An intelligence briefer to the press for that estimate at the time claimed to have no recollection of the section, but the Sun maintains that it is there. Following the defeat of Al Qaeda in Afghanistan in 2001, many senior Al Qaeda leaders, such as Saif al Adel and Saad bin Laden, fled to Iran, while others, such as Osama bin Laden and Ayman al Zawahiri, are believed to have fled to the border tribal provinces in Pakistan.




Quote:

The status of men such as Mr. al Adel is described as a "form of house arrest." But in 2003 during negotiations between America and Iran to examine a swap for anti-Iranian terrorists known as the People's Mujahedin for the senior Al Qaeda leaders, Saudi Arabia provided an intercept of Mr. al Adel in communication with an Al Qaeda cell in Riyadh that planned a series of bombings in May of that year. The New York Times reported at the time that the Bush administration believed it had "rock-hard" evidence of at least 12 Al Qaeda leaders "directing some operations from Iran."




Quote:

And the final report of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States said, "Intelligence indicates the persistence of contacts between Iranian security officials and senior Al Qaeda figures after Bin Ladin's return to Afghanistan. Khallad has said that Iran made a concerted effort to strengthen relations with Al Qaeda after the October 2000 attack on the USS Cole, but was rebuffed because Bin Ladin did not want to alienate his supporters in Saudi Arabia. Khallad and other detainees have described the willingness of Iranian officials to facilitate the travel of Al Qaeda members through Iran, on their way to and from Afghanistan. For example, Iranian border inspectors would be told not to place telltale stamps in the passports of these travelers. Such arrangements were particularly beneficial to Saudi members of Al Qaeda."




And, finally, McCain did not ultimately backpeddle in spite of Lieberman's error.  He just refrained from definitively declaring that they were training al-Q.  Which does NOT mean that he doesn't think they are and most certainly does NOT mean that they aren't doing it.

Quote:

But while the McCain campaign is backing away from the specific claims about Iranian training of Al Qaeda, it is asserting that Iran collaborates with Osama bin Laden's organization.

Mr. McCain's national security adviser, Randy Scheunemann, told The New York Sun, "There is ample documentation that Iran has provided many different forms of support to Sunni extremists, including Al Qaeda as well as Shi'ia extremists in Iraq. It would require a willing suspension of disbelief to deny Iran supports Al Qaeda in Iraq."





I repeat, there is no reason whatsoever to believe that McCain was in error and plenty of reason to believe that he was correct.  Of course, for the OJ jurors in this crowd, the glove doesn't fit quite well enough.


--------------------

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Invisiblethedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8605987 - 07/07/08 09:18 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

When asked whom Iran supports, Mr. al Tamimi said, "Everybody — it works with the government, with the opponents of the government, with the opponents of the government's opponents, with Al-Qaeda, with the enemies of Al-Qaeda, with the militias, with the enemies of the militias ... Iran spreads its investments everywhere – with the Shiites, the Sunnis, and the Kurds



No shit?!  This is common knowledge.  It is without question Iran's intention to destabilize Iraq, and in so doing gain wider influence within the middle-east, and deflate US power there.  Duh.  But, I still see nothing showing anything other than an agreement with Al-Qaeda to allow their passage through Iran, to and from Iraq and Afghanistan.  This is most certainly not in any way mistakable for actual training, in an operational, tactical or logistical sense, of Qaeda operatives..  tacit support perhaps, but no more so than that which is being offered by Pakistan.  Direct training and indirect facilitation are two entirely different things. 

Quote:

But while the McCain campaign is backing away from the specific claims about Iranian training of Al Qaeda, it is asserting that Iran collaborates with Osama bin Laden's organization.



He's backing away from the specific claim because he can't support it..  and neither can you.  The notion that Iran isn't doing anything and everything within their power to disrupt the stability of Iraq is absurd, but this arrangement is clearly more of a forced relationship of convenience, rather than a honeymoon in paradise.


--------------------


I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: thedefone]
    #8608555 - 07/08/08 03:02 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Not because he can't support it.  There is plenty of support for it.  He just can't flat out prove it as fact.  Which is a level of certitude I believe is about as useful as a unicorn when dealing with foreign intelligence.  There is not one issue ever where there is unanimity among spies.


--------------------

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Invisibledownforpot
Stranger
Male
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8608963 - 07/08/08 04:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

downforpot said:


You do realize that the 9/11 Commission Report's info on Iran was older than 5 years?  So Fact still remains that you are using old intelligence but then again you accepted OLD intelligence on Iraq... So I guess I shouldn't be surprised with you using obsolete information. 




Well no, I don't "realize" that, nor do I think that they didn't have later confirmation.  There's even later information.  With named sources.  Someone call the NY Times and tell them about that.
http://www.nysun.com/national/mccain-obama-clash-over-irans-al-qaeda-role/73277/

Quote:

The Sun, in a series of dispatches from northern Iraq and Baghdad, detailed claims that Iran has supported Al Qaeda in Iraq. One such dispatch, published on April 25, 2007, quoted the director of the security ministry for the Sulaimaniyah province, Sarkawt Hassan Jalal, as saying Iran had harbored the leadership of a group calling itself Al Qaeda in Kurdistan in five towns on the Iraqi border.




Quote:

A former commander of a group that has at times aligned with Al Qaeda in Iraq, the Islamic Army of Iraq, Abu Azzam al Tamimi, told Al Arabiya television on January 18, 2008, that Iran "interferes in every aspect in Iraq." When asked whom Iran supports, Mr. al Tamimi said, "Everybody — it works with the government, with the opponents of the government, with the opponents of the government's opponents, with Al-Qaeda, with the enemies of Al-Qaeda, with the militias, with the enemies of the militias ... Iran spreads its investments everywhere – with the Shiites, the Sunnis, and the Kurds," according to a translation by the Middle East Media Research Institute.




Quote:

The Sun also reported in July that a senior leadership or management council for Al Qaeda meets regularly in eastern Iran, according to the classified portion of the latest national intelligence estimate on Al Qaeda. An intelligence briefer to the press for that estimate at the time claimed to have no recollection of the section, but the Sun maintains that it is there. Following the defeat of Al Qaeda in Afghanistan in 2001, many senior Al Qaeda leaders, such as Saif al Adel and Saad bin Laden, fled to Iran, while others, such as Osama bin Laden and Ayman al Zawahiri, are believed to have fled to the border tribal provinces in Pakistan.




Quote:

The status of men such as Mr. al Adel is described as a "form of house arrest." But in 2003 during negotiations between America and Iran to examine a swap for anti-Iranian terrorists known as the People's Mujahedin for the senior Al Qaeda leaders, Saudi Arabia provided an intercept of Mr. al Adel in communication with an Al Qaeda cell in Riyadh that planned a series of bombings in May of that year. The New York Times reported at the time that the Bush administration believed it had "rock-hard" evidence of at least 12 Al Qaeda leaders "directing some operations from Iran."




Quote:

And the final report of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States said, "Intelligence indicates the persistence of contacts between Iranian security officials and senior Al Qaeda figures after Bin Ladin's return to Afghanistan. Khallad has said that Iran made a concerted effort to strengthen relations with Al Qaeda after the October 2000 attack on the USS Cole, but was rebuffed because Bin Ladin did not want to alienate his supporters in Saudi Arabia. Khallad and other detainees have described the willingness of Iranian officials to facilitate the travel of Al Qaeda members through Iran, on their way to and from Afghanistan. For example, Iranian border inspectors would be told not to place telltale stamps in the passports of these travelers. Such arrangements were particularly beneficial to Saudi members of Al Qaeda."




And, finally, McCain did not ultimately backpeddle in spite of Lieberman's error.  He just refrained from definitively declaring that they were training al-Q.  Which does NOT mean that he doesn't think they are and most certainly does NOT mean that they aren't doing it.

Quote:

But while the McCain campaign is backing away from the specific claims about Iranian training of Al Qaeda, it is asserting that Iran collaborates with Osama bin Laden's organization.

Mr. McCain's national security adviser, Randy Scheunemann, told The New York Sun, "There is ample documentation that Iran has provided many different forms of support to Sunni extremists, including Al Qaeda as well as Shi'ia extremists in Iraq. It would require a willing suspension of disbelief to deny Iran supports Al Qaeda in Iraq."





I repeat, there is no reason whatsoever to believe that McCain was in error and plenty of reason to believe that he was correct.  Of course, for the OJ jurors in this crowd, the glove doesn't fit quite well enough.




You still have not given any concrete evidence that Iran has massive training centers for Al Qaeda inside Iran,

Why the hell do you think Lieberman corrected him? Because he's not a hotheaded neocon.

What you are doing is exactly what Bush did before the Iraq War. Presenting flimsy evidence in order to bolster a completely bullshit statement. I bet you supported the Iraq War on bullshit evidence too, right?

And I suggest you be more careful when listening to anything the Bushies are saying unless you are okay with being bullshitted before the Iraq War.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

Edited by downforpot (07/08/08 04:49 PM)

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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
 User Gallery


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 13 years, 2 days
Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: downforpot]
    #8610492 - 07/08/08 10:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:


What you are doing is exactly what Bush did before the Iraq War. Presenting flimsy evidence in order to bolster a completely bullshit statement. I bet you supported the Iraq War on bullshit evidence too, right?

And I suggest you be more careful when listening to anything the Bushies are saying unless you are okay with being bullshitted before the Iraq War. 







be very very very very very very very careful Zap....



George Bush is a lot more Intelligent than most folks, he could trick you!



:smirk:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Edited by lonestar2004 (07/09/08 08:20 AM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8613378 - 07/09/08 02:53 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

That should be changed to
vewy vewy vewy careful, because there's a whole shitload of killer rabbits out there.

And downforpot is yet another one who is utterly incapable of understanding that there never can be complete concrete indisputable beyond any reasonable penis flying over the moon with extra jimmies intelligence.  And a unicorn.  Gotta have a unicorn.  But that is utterly irrelevant to unequivocally stating that McCain erred.  He was far more likely correct.  Far more.  I am much more confident that McCain is correct than I am that downforpot's girlfriend is faithful to him.  Just a silly rating scale I have.


--------------------

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Invisiblethedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8613439 - 07/09/08 03:13 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

And downforpot is yet another one who is utterly incapable of understanding that there never can be complete concrete indisputable beyond any reasonable penis flying over the moon with extra jimmies intelligence.  And a unicorn.  Gotta have a unicorn.  But that is utterly irrelevant to unequivocally stating that McCain erred.  He was far more likely correct.  Far more.  I am much more confident that McCain is correct than I am that downforpot's girlfriend is faithful to him.  Just a silly rating scale I have.



The idea that just because something cannot be dis-proven that it must be true, is among the stupidest, and most reckless political notions I have ever encountered.  Thank you for extending that principle from religion into politics.  We are all eternally grateful.  You have yet to put forth any evidence in your assertions that doesn't rely almost entirely on faith

I'll be waiting for your refutation of the existence of the unicorn with bated breath.


--------------------


I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.

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Offlinedill705
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Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 3,779
Loc: The Cat's Cradle
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: thedefone]
    #8613473 - 07/09/08 03:20 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

:lol::rofl::lol:


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: thedefone]
    #8613488 - 07/09/08 03:23 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Actually, a unicorn is more likely than downforpot's girlfriend's fidelity but that is irrelevant.  You keep underscoring my argument that leftists should never be entrusted with matters of national security.  My assertion is not that Iran definitely, proven before man and zappa, trains al-Q.  They almost certainly do.  But the more worrisome symptom is the demand for absolute surety in international intelligence and the willingness to fabricate stupid slurs like the "Hundred Year War for Oil" nonsense.  Find something real to argue against McCain on.  This is stupid


--------------------

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Offlinedill705
Amazed
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Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 3,779
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Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: dill705]
    #8613517 - 07/09/08 03:27 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

:flyingpig:


:tongue2:


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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Invisibledownforpot
Stranger
Male
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8613921 - 07/09/08 05:05 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
That should be changed to
vewy vewy vewy careful, because there's a whole shitload of killer rabbits out there.

And downforpot is yet another one who is utterly incapable of understanding that there never can be complete concrete indisputable beyond any reasonable penis flying over the moon with extra jimmies intelligence.  And a unicorn.  Gotta have a unicorn.  But that is utterly irrelevant to unequivocally stating that McCain erred.  He was far more likely correct.  Far more.  I am much more confident that McCain is correct than I am that downforpot's girlfriend is faithful to him.  Just a silly rating scale I have.




Fact still remains that you have no concrete evidence. Why the hell would you escalate a situation based on no evidence especially when that situation can lead to war? War is too important to be based on bullshit but for some reason you are okay with that... just like you seem to be okay with the bullshit evidence that was presented before the Iraq War.

I suggest you go read Art of War.

If there was rock solid evidence that Iran was training large numbers of Al Qaeda then Lieberman wouldn't have corrected McCain. I guess you think Lieberman isn't hotheaded enough? He should be more of a neocon?

And sorry I don't like relationships. I usually visit the east side for my fix or to a frat party.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
My assertion is not that Iran definitely, proven before man and zappa, trains al-Q.  They almost certainly do. 




And Saddam most certainly has WMD's? LOL. You do realize that you are using the same logic that was used before the Iraq War? Good Job being Bush. You read the article of how the Iraq War will go into history as a FAULTED War?



--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

Edited by downforpot (07/09/08 05:09 PM)

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: blackegg]
    #8613953 - 07/09/08 05:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

To no one in particular: please, let's all cool it with the ad hominems. As good as they may make you feel to write them, they do nothing for your case and they're against the rules.

If this debates doesn't stay civil, I'll lock the thread, which would suck because it's an interesting topic.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlinedill705
Amazed
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Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 3,779
Loc: The Cat's Cradle
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: Diploid]
    #8614271 - 07/09/08 06:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

4 sure, I just wanna know if J-Mac rattled that dudes shit.

Sounds like something that could happen. Definitely an interesting topic.


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: dill705]
    #8617444 - 07/10/08 01:06 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

there's no pics, it never happened

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8618754 - 07/10/08 06:30 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
there's no pics, it never happened




"Pics, or it didn't happen" seems to be roughly the criteria of the protected.  And perhaps somebody missed the news report about 550 tons of yellowcake removed from Iraq just the other day.


--------------------

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Invisibledownforpot
Stranger
Male
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
Re: Hotheaded McCain denies shaking foreign dignitary like a cheap ragdoll. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8619601 - 07/10/08 10:02 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
there's no pics, it never happened




"Pics, or it didn't happen" seems to be roughly the criteria of the protected.  And perhaps somebody missed the news report about 550 tons of yellowcake removed from Iraq just the other day.




How old was it? When was it made? Was it properly maintained? Was it easily assimilated into nuclear weapons? Was it ever made into nuclear weapons? Was it allowed to rot just like those fighter jets swallowed by the desert?

You remember that sarin gas bomb used as an IED against our troops? Troops were still alive, received some medical care... Having a rotting stockpile of materials/weapons does not mean you are actively pursuing new weapons manufacturing. You kind of have to dispose of that shit periodically in order to have a "working and reliable" weapon.  I am sure you can find a ton of old weapons all over Iraq that were never kept track of by Saddam. The same goes for US and Russia.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

Edited by downforpot (07/10/08 10:08 PM)

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