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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlineuno
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Registered: 04/06/02
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Re: Athiest Death Theory [Re: Smack31]
    #859501 - 09/02/02 07:25 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

In reply to:

it's like a glitch, it only happens every-so-often...




Like when they rearrange the Matrix.


--------------------
- uno


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Athiest Death Theory [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #860483 - 09/03/02 02:26 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

In reply to:

Is there such thing as an individual? I feel there is only a 'whole.'




The whole is made with individuals, extensions of it self, if there was only a whole in terms of conciousness then the whole will be an individual. I think the question should be, how important to the whole is our individual existence ?

In reply to:

All existence is interbeing.




I never said the contrary, well, your premise don't exclude the individual, we interact with each other and with reality, that's the way the individual gains experience.

In reply to:

Would you be alive without trees, clouds, sunshine, water, or love? All elements are in you, and you are in all elements.




The individual enjoys the whole, contemplation and above all enjoying and caring that contemplation is a gift from the whole, everyone is part of it.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Athiest Death Theory [Re: MAIA]
    #861301 - 09/03/02 11:12 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

I can see your point MAIA. The individual relies on the whole and the whole relies on the individuals. :cool:
They are interbeing as one.
Peace, Trev 


--------------------
Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: Athiest Death Theory [Re: LiquidSmoke]
    #861342 - 09/03/02 11:38 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

How about dissolution? Simple cessation of existence.

Where does the copy of a computer program in memory which is running go when it stops running?


--------------------
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Offlinejayson
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Re: Athiest Death Theory [Re: ToxicMan]
    #861849 - 09/03/02 03:37 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Where does the copy of a computer program in memory which is running go when it stops running?

The program has no consciousness. There is no entity to begin with.


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: Athiest Death Theory [Re: jayson]
    #862177 - 09/03/02 06:53 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

The program has no consciousness.

I'm curious - what is your definition of conciousness?


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Offlinejayson
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Re: Athiest Death Theory [Re: ToxicMan]
    #863672 - 09/04/02 03:00 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

what is your definition of conciousness?

Conscious awareness.
To be aware of the self.
The realisation of self.
I know i exist, so therefor i do.


Edited by jayson (09/04/02 03:05 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Athiest Death Theory [Re: jayson]
    #864526 - 09/04/02 11:48 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

I know i exist, so therefor i do. 


Indulge me:

if a dog had a red dot painted on his head, and is put in front of a mirror, and he did not know the red dot was on his head, and made no attempt to wipe it away (incedently a chimp or porpoise will acknowledge the dot)  But assume the dot is on the head of Other Dog in the 'window' in front of him. By the definition given, he doesnt exist?
If he is unaware that the Other Dog is a refelection of himself, how can he continue to live or exist? This is where the 'Dreamer' concept for me comes into play. Ok, this is starting to sound like stoner talk.  :smirk:-OoD

 


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: Athiest Death Theory [Re: Anonymous]
    #864859 - 09/05/02 07:28 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Maybe it sounds like stoner talk, but it still hits the point.

Jayson, I wonder what the relevance of self-awareness is. First, how do you know the computer program is not self-aware? How can you tell if anything is self-aware or not? Second, in what way does it matter whether something (or somebody) is self-aware or not?

We can take a normal person and introduce chemical substances into their body until they are no longer self-aware. They will be alive and concious (and might even return to normal if allowed), but unable to comprehend self-awareness or much of anything else. If this person dies while they are in this state, in what way does it alter the consequences of their death? If self-awareness is significant, shouldn't the results of death be different?


--------------------
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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Athiest Death Theory [Re: ToxicMan]
    #865100 - 09/05/02 09:48 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

In my book...
If it can't communicate... it might as well not be conscious.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinejayson
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Re: Athiest Death Theory [Re: ToxicMan]
    #865812 - 09/05/02 05:16 PM (19 years, 27 days ago)

If he is unaware that the Other Dog is a refelection of himself, how can he continue to live or exist? This is where the 'Dreamer' concept for me comes into play. Ok, this is starting to sound like stoner talk. -OoD

If the dog doesn't understanding the concept of a mirror, it just shoes lack of intelligence not lack of awareness.

Jayson, I wonder what the relevance of self-awareness is. First, how do you know the computer program is not self-aware? How can you tell if anything is self-aware or not? Second, in what way does it matter whether something (or somebody) is self-aware or not?

Your right, you can never know for certain that anything but your self is consciously self aware. The only certainty is that the self is a conscious entity. Everything, and everyone else can never be proven to exist with absolute certainty. Although it seems obvious that a program as a whole is not conscious. Its no different than a car or even a pair of pliers, it can not act on its own behalf.
Second. Why does it matter, growth, consciousness is about growth.

We can take a normal person and introduce chemical substances into their body until they are no longer self-aware. They will be alive and concious (and might even return to normal if allowed), but unable to comprehend self-awareness or much of anything else. If this person dies while they are in this state, in what way does it alter the consequences of their death? If self-awareness is significant, shouldn't the results of death be different?

If your conscious you must be self aware. You don't have to be able to contemplate it in an intelligent manner.
If an entity is sleeping does that mean that it's no longer consciously aware of the self. No. Only to an observer does this appear to be the case.
Does the state of mind at death alter the death experience. Definitely.
But death comes when death is ment to come. The state of mind that the self is in at the time of death is correct for that entity.


Edited by jayson (09/05/02 05:26 PM)


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: Athiest Death Theory [Re: jayson]
    #866064 - 09/04/02 08:01 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Although it seems obvious that a program as a whole is not conscious. Its no different than a car or even a pair of pliers, it can not act on its own behalf.

The word "obvious" is an indicator that somebody is about to use simple assertion to prove their point. I don't consider it obvious. My counter-argument is the Chinese Room.

In general, the discussion seems to be based on differences of definition for basic terms. If we want to continue, we should agree to definitions for a number of ideas. A few terms we would need detailed definitions for are conscious, growth, and aware.

But death comes when death is ment to come. The state of mind that the self is in at the time of death is correct for that entity.

Interesting. So you believe in predestination? (Nothing wrong with that - the ancient Greeks did, too)


This might be a good time to restate my answer to the original question of this thread, "what you think happens to the conscious being when someone dies."

My answer is dissolution. Simple cessation of existence. Where the copy of a computer program in memory which is running goes when it stops running.

I answer the question only to answer the question, not to attempt to dissuade anyone from another belief.


--------------------
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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Athiest Death Theory [Re: ToxicMan]
    #866996 - 09/06/02 10:57 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

My counter-argument is the Chinese Room.

I'm with you against predestination, but Searle fucked up on that argument.  If you would like to know how, check out ANY philosophy of mind textbook.  The majority of AI researchers are determinists (compatabilists at best)... so most books are going to be anti-Free Will, but that doesn't mean that the Chinese Room argument holds water.

It all basically comes down to your desires and intuitions.  IMHO, those with a more holistic view of philosophy (and the world at large) tend to side with free will.

I answer the question only to answer the question, not to attempt to dissuade anyone from another belief.

Good luck with that in here. :wink: 


--------------------
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Offlinejayson
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Re: Athiest Death Theory [Re: ToxicMan]
    #870657 - 09/08/02 11:37 PM (19 years, 24 days ago)

You cannot manufacture a conscious entity. No matter how smart a machine appears to be, its just a machine.
As far as true death, a complete end goes, i personally cannot comprehend such a thing.
I might be wrong, but that's what i think.


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: Athiest Death Theory [Re: jayson]
    #871957 - 09/09/02 09:57 AM (19 years, 24 days ago)

You cannot manufacture a conscious entity. No matter how smart a machine appears to be, its just a machine.

What difference is there between you, I, and a machine? The fact that human beings manufactured the machine? Polio viruses have been manufactured.


As far as true death, a complete end goes, i personally cannot comprehend such a thing.
I might be wrong, but that's what i think.


In the end, there's only one way to actually know what happens. One thing is certain - we will all find out first hand. Given the number of different views on the subject, most of us will be wrong. It's even possible that all of us are wrong.


--------------------
Happy mushrooming!


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Registered: 07/10/99
Posts: 6,486
Re: Athiest Death Theory [Re: LiquidSmoke]
    #872534 - 09/09/02 03:02 PM (19 years, 23 days ago)

At this point in time I beleive that we are worm food and we cease to exist.
It really isnt that hard to comprehend since its the same thing most religions believe to animals. Do you believe crickets go to a pearly gate?


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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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Offlinejayson
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Re: Athiest Death Theory [Re: ToxicMan]
    #873163 - 09/09/02 08:25 PM (19 years, 23 days ago)

What difference is there between you, I, and a machine? The fact that human beings manufactured the machine? Polio viruses have been manufactured.

Polio was not truly created by man. It was a manipulation of an other organism. Like a new bread of dog is not truly created.

One thing is certain - we will all find out first hand. Given the number of different views on the subject, most of us will be wrong. It's even possible that all of us are wrong.

How true.

As far as my inability to comprehend death goes, i look at it like this. A child has no problem comprehending the easter bunny.


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