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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Any practicing Christians or Jews with tattoos here?
    #8584423 - 07/01/08 05:18 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

How do you resolve this with the OT directive against tattoos?


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: Any practicing Christians or Jews with tattoos here? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8584471 - 07/01/08 05:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not a Christer but doesn't the NT negate the OT?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Any practicing Christians or Jews with tattoos here? [Re: Middleman]
    #8584526 - 07/01/08 05:43 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The Ten Commandments no longer apply?


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: Any practicing Christians or Jews with tattoos here? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8584536 - 07/01/08 05:47 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Not as long as you confess after breaking them. :smirk:


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Any practicing Christians or Jews with tattoos here? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8602813 - 07/07/08 02:30 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Last time I checked Christians went to church on Sunday except for Seventh Day Adventists.  Evidently the Old Testament and certain prohibitions in it were written for the Israelites.

So no, the Ten Commandments do not apply to Christians.

Cool movie though.



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Offlinezouden
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Re: Any practicing Christians or Jews with tattoos here? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8602969 - 07/07/08 03:51 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Doesn't that just depend on what day the Sabbath is?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Any practicing Christians or Jews with tattoos here? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8603444 - 07/07/08 10:52 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

So no, the Ten Commandments do not apply to Christians.

That's why christians are so good at killing and coveting their neighbors ass.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Any practicing Christians or Jews with tattoos here? [Re: Middleman]
    #8603561 - 07/07/08 11:42 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
I'm not a Christer but doesn't the NT negate the OT?




No, the NT is supposed to be a fulfillment of the OT. Apparently, the NT was written in such a way that many OT prophesies were made to occur in the life of Y'shua. Anyone who still reads the Bible, Ot or NT as literal, accurate historical reports is not thinking with fully adult faculties, but with residual "preoperational" and "concrete operational" childish modes of mentality IMO. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Piaget.

James, one of the brothers of Jesus, tried to maintain the Jewishness of Jesus' teachings. Peter and Paul began to evangelize to the non-Jews, and they did not insist that adult converts to 'The Way,' be circumcized [Whew!], or adhere to Jewish dietary restrictions, biblically based on a visionary experience attributed to Peter:

(Acts 10:9-16) On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Wherein were all manner of four-footed beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

The ethics of the Decalogue (Ten Commandments) was NEVER eliminated - it was transcended, which means that the New ethics of Jesus not only contained the Ten Commandments, but went further, based on compassion. One didn't merely not 'commit adultery,' for example, but if one even lusted in one's mind, one had already reaped the judgement of one who HAD committed adultery. The outer ethics were internalized and sensitized to acts within consciousness, It was not merely fear of the Law, but knowledge that internal acts still reaped judgement (karma, 'as ye sow, so shall ye reap'). In this sense, Christian ethics and morality represents an internal locus of control, not dependent upon external controls. Morality that depends upon fear of punishment (according to human developmentalist Lawrence Kohlberg and others) is not morality at all.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Any practicing Christians or Jews with tattoos here? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8603571 - 07/07/08 11:44 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"So no, the Ten Commandments do not apply to Christians."

This is clearly wrong by any and all Christian denominations. See my comment in above post.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Any practicing Christians or Jews with tattoos here? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8603749 - 07/07/08 01:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Anyone who still reads the Bible, Ot or NT as literal, accurate historical reports is not thinking with fully adult faculties, but with residual "preoperational" and "concrete operational" childish modes of mentality IMO. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Piaget.


Markos I don't know how many times you've had to make this case here about the "scriptures" but I'd like a buck for every one of em.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (07/07/08 01:07 PM)


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Any practicing Christians or Jews with tattoos here? [Re: Icelander]
    #8603861 - 07/07/08 01:37 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Anyone who still reads the Bible, Ot or NT as literal, accurate historical reports is not thinking with fully adult faculties, but with residual "preoperational" and "concrete operational" childish modes of mentality IMO. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Piaget.


Markos I don't know how many times you've had to make this case here about the "scriptures" but I'd like a buck for every one of em.




Its true.  Is another double blind study in order...??  I say grab 30 religious volunteers, again, and keep at it until people get it.



Markos...??  Even though scripture comes alive in a new way while in an expanded state of consciousness, do you feel that it is at all historically accurate??


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OfflineWornTraveler
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Re: Any practicing Christians or Jews with tattoos here? [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8604090 - 07/07/08 02:46 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The Old Testament ALSO says to stone your wife if she sleeps with another man, that it's ok to take slaves from neighboring countries, and that you shouldn't eat pork or shell-fish.

Last time I checked, normal Christians (at least in America) either divorce their wives or get counseling, don't own Mexican or Canadian slaves, and eat hot dogs and lobster whenever the occasion suits them. Clearly the Old Testament had something backwards with it.

And I can tell you exactly what it was: it was written by a bunch of unenlightened nomads who routinely killed everything that stood in their way, wiping out entire cities with the exception of the city virgins, who were forced to marry the men and were subsequently raped. I do believe in God, and I do consider myself something of a  Christian (having never studied any other religious text), but I don't have any delusions about the nature of the Bible. It was written by people: people as flawed and sinful as everyone else on the planet.

And to answer the original question, yes, I have a tattoo. If Jesus can hang out with prostitutes, I don't think he's going to mind the art on my left bicep. He came among us not to judge but to enlighten, and as he said, "Let you who is sinless throw the first stone." Since he's the only sinless person to walk the earth, and he won't be throwing the first stone seeing as he didn't come to judge, I am not worried at all, to be honest.


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Captain Cannabis, Guardian of Ganja, Sultan of Shrooms, Giver of Green, Tabbed Tripper, and all around Good Guy.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Any practicing Christians or Jews with tattoos here? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8604662 - 07/07/08 05:57 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

All depends on how you slice it.  "Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy" is a lot different from "forget not the assembling of yourselves."  The major difference is the day itself.  No matter how you "interpret" the Bible, the Sabbath is Saturday, the first day of the week is Sunday.  Most Christians do not "keep the Sabbath."

The point is incontrovertible.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Any practicing Christians or Jews with tattoos here? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8604693 - 07/07/08 06:06 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Wikipedia doesn't really clear things up....
Quote:

In the majority of Christendom, "Sabbath" is a synonym of "Lord's Day" (Sunday), which is kept in commemoration of the resurrection of Christ. It is often the day of rest, and usually the day of communal worship. The Lord's Day is considered both the first day and the "eighth day" of the seven-day week (or, in some calendars, Sunday is designated the seventh day of the week).
Sometimes the Lord's Day is observed by those who believe the Sabbath corresponds to Saturday but is obsolete; and in Oriental Orthodoxy, the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church has observed both a Sunday Lord's Day and a Saturday Sabbath for several centuries. As another minority view, some modern Christians uphold a Sabbath but do not limit its observance to either Saturday or Sunday, instead advocating rest on any chosen day of the week, or advocating the Sabbath as instead a symbolic metaphor for rest in Christ.



:shrug:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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OfflineWornTraveler
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Re: Any practicing Christians or Jews with tattoos here? [Re: zouden]
    #8604720 - 07/07/08 06:15 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Wikipedia is hardly the place I would go for factual information. Half of the shit on there is opinion passed as fact.


--------------------
Captain Cannabis, Guardian of Ganja, Sultan of Shrooms, Giver of Green, Tabbed Tripper, and all around Good Guy.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Any practicing Christians or Jews with tattoos here? [Re: WornTraveler]
    #8604770 - 07/07/08 06:28 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I don't understand the sabbath issue.  Isn't it irrelevant?  Keep the sabath.  What day you choose or society chooses seems irrelevant.

I'd also like to point out that certain people here are again conflating the christian doctrine and the religious teachings with the acts of its followers.


Yes christians, as everyone else, sin and break the lord's comandements, so what?  No relevance to the religion except maybe to show low utility or something.


And I've also heard various parts of the old testament discarded at will.


I think it isn't thrown out wholesale, in my understanding, but certain jewish laws are neglected and discarded, for when jesus came he annuled them and set out a new covenant between the people and god.


I've never gotten a god answer for why this is the case, however.  The NT seems unclear that the laws no longer apply, though some certainly seem self-limiting, i.e. only applied to the desert wanderers et cet.

The christians do seem a little befuddled with the applicability of certain laws though.


Leviticus is disregarded wholesale in the major sects of christianity, it seems.  But the most clear proscription of homosexual behavior amongst men occurs in leviticus, and in some other OT parts, yet the christians are still hot and bothered about these commandemtns.  I don't understand it, it's never been clearly explained to me, and I've read much on the subject, and I would guess that most christians have no idea the issue even exists or even know the screwyness of some OT books which contain the same anti-gay rules they accept as doctrine.

Confusion..


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Any practicing Christians or Jews with tattoos here? [Re: johnm214]
    #8604827 - 07/07/08 06:44 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


Leviticus is disregarded wholesale in the major sects of christianity, it seems.  But the most clear proscription of homosexual behavior amongst men occurs in leviticus, and in some other OT parts, yet the christians are still hot and bothered about these commandemtns.  I don't understand it,



It's quite simple really: they are bigots, and they think they can use the bible to justify it.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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OfflineWornTraveler
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Re: Any practicing Christians or Jews with tattoos here? [Re: zouden]
    #8605390 - 07/07/08 08:52 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

There are several sections of the Bible that say God and his laws are eternal and unchanging. At the same time, a lot of Christians say "Because it's in the Bible!" to argue something, while they ignore the things they don't like, i.e. slavery, killing your wife for adultery, killing all the men in a city and raping the virgins- all the bad stuff in the OT. I think they just need to accept that the Bible is just a book. :undecided:


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Captain Cannabis, Guardian of Ganja, Sultan of Shrooms, Giver of Green, Tabbed Tripper, and all around Good Guy.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Any practicing Christians or Jews with tattoos here? [Re: johnm214]
    #8605671 - 07/07/08 10:00 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:

I'd also like to point out that certain people here are again conflating the christian doctrine and the religious teachings with the acts of its followers.




That's a good point, John. What defines a religion are the tenets, doctrines, etc in its text.  What defines a person is what they do.  Unless you want to get into the non-practicing issue, which, frankly, is a bunch of bullshit.

Quote:

Bigot

a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance





The use of the word, "bigot," is weighted, signifying one who is intolerant, a swear word among liberals.  Normally it should be reserved for persons who are intolerant of someone due to things they cannot change such as skin color or genetics.  Using the word "bigot" when applying it to behavior becomes problematic because certain behaviors are socially unacceptable by most of society, pedophilia being one such example.

If we use the word "bigot" to mean one who is intolerant, many individuals here could be called bigots.  Normally that doesn't promote healthy dialogue, but is, instead, the end of it.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Any practicing Christians or Jews with tattoos here? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8606616 - 07/08/08 01:44 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

This one regards one's relationship with God, keeping a day for contemplation. The adultery example embodies more of a horizontal/social responsibility. The NT take was that 'the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath,' which makes perfect sense to me. Many modern Jews do not grok moral allegories like 'Do not seethe a kid in its mother's milk,' and only take it materialistically as: 'don't eat meat with dairy!' Ridiculous interpretation as far as I'm concerned. A moral teaching on mammalian compassion turns into 'don't eat cheeseburgers!' How incredibly stupidly banal.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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