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 Cepheus
Balance
 
Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 8,266
Loc: the space between reality...
Last seen: 18 days, 22 hours
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 Inadequacy of words 
#8579123 - 06/29/08 10:52 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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I have this recurring thought which has been prevalent throughout all of my recent trips (irregardless of the chemical i.e. tryptamine or phenethylamine). Every trip I 'loose' my words and am rendered unable to communicate 'adequately'... meaning that I realise the complete inadequacy and pointlessness of even attempting to communicate these most impossible experiences.
I now realise what Huxley is on about in the doors of perception.. In a recent LSD experience I melted into the earth whilst a single piece of phalaris arundinacea (coincidentally) became the center of my universe.. It reverberated life and pure energy. Words will never ever get close to describing this experience and even the most eloquent and articulate of people still fail to communicate the uncommunicatable.
Another example would be the feeling of a nitrous balloon.. How the hell does one begin to even describe that?!?
I guess what I'm driving at is how do you express yourself when words fail? I don't think the typical artistic routes (i.e. drawing or music) come close either as they are still limited mediums (and I consider myself a man of words).
Imagine how different the world would be if we weren't limited to words.. if we could directly experience other peoples experience..
Just some thoughts  .
--------------------
"I only ever hope to reach equilibrium, in Nature's matrix, in line with the meridian" ~ Jehst
 "...and I know that I have to keep breathing, as tomorrow the sun will rise, who knows what the tide will bring?"
Free Spore Ring Europe
Send any spare spore prints you might have and help the distribution 
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 ridebaja
Rewild Yourself
Registered: 05/02/08
Posts: 184
Loc: The Other Side
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Re: Inadequacy of words [Re: Cepheus]
#8579197 - 06/29/08 11:18 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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That's true, but I think that art (music, pictures) seem to be the closest thing that we have to describing those extreme experiences. If that seems inadequate, then maybe some new forms of art need to be formed. But as for words, I think that the majority of humans have words as their only way of communicating those extreme experiences. Since alot of people don't practice music or painting or any form of art.
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Land_Crab
NeuroticPsychonaut
Registered: 08/29/04
Posts: 2,194
Loc: U.S.
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Re: Inadequacy of words [Re: Cepheus]
#8579478 - 06/30/08 01:28 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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This has frustrated me for some time. At some point it struck me in the most profound way and I've been struggling with it ever since. Not only is language inadequate to the task of genuine self-expression; it degrades self-expression by forcing us to pick and choose words that best approximate our original intent. That's just the nature of subjective experience and private cognition: it exists outside language. The only real way past this would require an evolutionary step in the direction of psychic power, or telepathy -- which is beyond us at this point; so we have to work within the alternatives:
- Language does present opportunities, like with poetry or any injection of creativity into linguistics. Also, developing a command of more than one language expands our cognition immeasurably--though learning new languages (particularly those outside the Latin alphabet) requires a commitment which is too much for most people past a certain age.
- Creative self-expression can take any form, and as long as it is sincere it does not matter if you get off by painting watercolors with your feet, practicing Aikido, howling at the moon, or fucking a tree. Some activities may be better received by others, but popularity is totally beside the point. The only thing that matters is whether or not the activity helps you externalize something internal.
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mannyrigs
Stranger
Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 41
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
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Re: Inadequacy of words [Re: Land_Crab]
#8579718 - 06/30/08 05:42 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Land Crab,
The restraints of the language has stopped me from getting that thought out on paper. and you said it perfectly,
respect..
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wildchild68
lion in a coma
Registered: 11/19/07
Posts: 5,115
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
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Re: Inadequacy of words [Re: mannyrigs]
#8579774 - 06/30/08 06:29 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Seconded. Well said.
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mannyrigs
Stranger
Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 41
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
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Re: Inadequacy of words *DELETED* [Re: mannyrigs]
#8579845 - 06/30/08 07:36 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Post deleted by mannyrigsReason for deletion: immature
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cheech
third eyeenhanced entity
Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 140
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
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Re: Inadequacy of words [Re: mannyrigs]
#8579848 - 06/30/08 07:38 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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i express myself thru music. in music you can speak in terms of feelings. you just gotta find the right sound to match that particular feeling.. which can be quite a task!
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Helpme1
freak
Registered: 07/06/06
Posts: 1,424
Loc: shlums-of-meltbanana
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
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Re: Inadequacy of words [Re: cheech]
#8579913 - 06/30/08 08:23 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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the only way I can adequately describe my trips is through poetry or some other art medium.
Check out the trip report in my sig, its not your typical report...
I find the english language more than adequate when describing mushrooms....
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"woah, that cat was really buggin out man, you should have put on some grateful dead so he could relax and enjoi his trip" -random shroomerite
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Apollyphelion
Dungeon Master/Princess(1009)
Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 16,757
Loc: Festival of Deaths
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Re: Inadequacy of words [Re: cheech]
#8579978 - 06/30/08 09:01 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Words are strange and quark-ish, and I think the
best thing about them is their paradoxical
quality about them being deadly precise
and never enough.
Words can convey experience...up until a point
I can say that A Nitrous blast is wonderful,
divine, indescribable even. Which is weird,
because indescribable is a quality much like
saying nothing IS something. Either way, you
just gotta see it to believe it or try to describe
it yourself.
So nothing is something but something can be
deadly serious to the point we need
the exact words in order find out which medication
an ill patient must be on. That patient must get the
right medication in order to describe
his indescribable experience of living with
a terminal illness, of getting the shitty
hand of life poker. I just compared life to
poker? Did anyone get what I meant? Was it
adequate?
Can we describe what we use to describe? An then describe
that? Does it get to the point where the indescribable becomes another way of saying retarded?
I love being retarded.
Kinda hard to say why, but I think some of
ya'll can feel me.
I have Little Lost Log names!
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"I'm looking at you looking at it"
SUBSCRIBE TO MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL PLEASE! www.youtube.com/apollyphelion
Creator of the World's Worst Comic Book
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 4 months
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I can never get all my thoughts out on acid either, but it's usually because my mind is moving faster than my mouth. That's why it's good to have a great tripping buddy. You both know what doesn't need to be said
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check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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Apollyphelion
Dungeon Master/Princess(1009)
Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 16,757
Loc: Festival of Deaths
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Re: Inadequacy of words [Re: g00ru]
#8580088 - 06/30/08 09:50 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
guruu said:
I can never get all my thoughts out on acid either, but it's usually because my mind is moving faster than my mouth. That's why it's good to have a great tripping buddy. You both know what doesn't need to be said
That's an awesome way of putting it!
Laughs are usually in HIGH order.
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"I'm looking at you looking at it"
SUBSCRIBE TO MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL PLEASE! www.youtube.com/apollyphelion
Creator of the World's Worst Comic Book
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Helpme1
freak
Registered: 07/06/06
Posts: 1,424
Loc: shlums-of-meltbanana
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
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maybe you guys should start reading books ?
start with Dante's Inferno...
if you are well versed in the human language you can express yourself damn easy while trippin
infact I find it easier to express myself when I'm trippin than in my sober state.
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"woah, that cat was really buggin out man, you should have put on some grateful dead so he could relax and enjoi his trip" -random shroomerite
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Cepheus
Balance
Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 8,266
Loc: the space between reality...
Last seen: 18 days, 22 hours
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Re: Inadequacy of words [Re: Helpme1]
#8580110 - 06/30/08 10:01 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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I can express myself but its just not enough. The words don't even begin to grasp what I am experiencing.. They're not dynamic enough. If you attempt to explain to someone who has never done psychedelic drugs what they're like.. I guarantee you that you won't be able effectively communicate any of it.
The feeling of just being is hard enough to describe .
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"I only ever hope to reach equilibrium, in Nature's matrix, in line with the meridian" ~ Jehst
"...and I know that I have to keep breathing, as tomorrow the sun will rise, who knows what the tide will bring?"
Free Spore Ring Europe
Send any spare spore prints you might have and help the distribution
Open Source. Freedom. GNU/Linux
Addicting is not a word.
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 4 months
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Re: Inadequacy of words [Re: Helpme1]
#8580118 - 06/30/08 10:03 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Helpme1 said:
maybe you guys should start reading books ?
start with Dante's Inferno...
if you are well versed in the human language you can express yourself damn easy while trippin
infact I find it easier to express myself when I'm trippin than in my sober state.
It's not a question of how articulate you are. I can usually get my thoughts out too. But when you're really gone, you just aren't gonna be able to communicate most of those really complex and "fractal" ideas that you're having.
--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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Helpme1
freak
Registered: 07/06/06
Posts: 1,424
Loc: shlums-of-meltbanana
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
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Re: Inadequacy of words [Re: g00ru]
#8580166 - 06/30/08 10:34 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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I love a nice poetic discourse knee deep in a good mushroom trip with some intellegent friends....nothin like it actually.
guess its just in my neck of the woods...
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"woah, that cat was really buggin out man, you should have put on some grateful dead so he could relax and enjoi his trip" -random shroomerite
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Platinum
Psychonautical Engineer
Registered: 06/04/08
Posts: 7,575
Loc: New York 
Last seen: 7 months, 20 days
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Re: Inadequacy of words [Re: g00ru]
#8580172 - 06/30/08 10:36 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
guruu said:
I can never get all my thoughts out on acid either, but it's usually because my mind is moving faster than my mouth. That's why it's good to have a great tripping buddy. You both know what doesn't need to be said
I completely agree. Tripping around people who know what the deal is is the best way to trip. Sometimes you'll stumble over words, or just can't get words out. A simple look to them and they completely understand.
Last week I was on 2 hits, and I was talking with my friend and he asked me about some of my visuals, I looked at him for about 20 seconds, and he stared right back at me. I opened my mouth to finally talk and attempt to explain it, I said "The clouds... they just..." then I made a motion with my hands and arms, "ya know... they just... kinda like..." this time I added my body into the movement. He looked at me, chuckled and said "dude... you don't need to say another thing, I completely understand." I was just like "thank you" and laughed back. About 20 minutes later I finally figured out the right words to describe it (at least as best I could) - I compared it to a painting of clouds crashing like waves, among other things...
I guess this kind of describes what we are talking about with a real life example.
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v00d00chi1d
Stranger
Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 39
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
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Re: Inadequacy of words [Re: Cepheus]
#8580224 - 06/30/08 10:57 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Perhaps one day it will become possible to decode the sequences of firing neurons and chemical secretions in the brain and make it possible to project visual thought onto a screen. Doubtful though.
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Platinum
Psychonautical Engineer
Registered: 06/04/08
Posts: 7,575
Loc: New York
Last seen: 7 months, 20 days
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Re: Inadequacy of words [Re: v00d00chi1d]
#8580234 - 06/30/08 11:00 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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That'd be pretty awesome though.
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Apollyphelion
Dungeon Master/Princess(1009)
Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 16,757
Loc: Festival of Deaths
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Re: Inadequacy of words [Re: Helpme1]
#8580259 - 06/30/08 11:07 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Helpme1 said:
I love a nice poetic discourse knee deep in a good mushroom trip with some intellegent friends....nothin like it actually.
guess its just in my neck of the woods...
If there is nothing like it, then there is nothing to compare it to, which means you should not be able to do it justice describing it using words.
How do you describe and express things without
context?
We are writing about that which cannot be written
about. If you can write about, it is besides that and not what we are conversing about.
Are there words to make you feel like I feel, exactly?
I'm Transgendered and I really wish I had a vagina.
LIKE SOOOOO BAD. I could write that shit all day.
I WANT A PUSSY!!!  My words are worthless;
if you bought some lingirie and wore them everyday, you'd have a better idea of what I am trying to say.
--------------------
"I'm looking at you looking at it"
SUBSCRIBE TO MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL PLEASE! www.youtube.com/apollyphelion
Creator of the World's Worst Comic Book
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astronaut
ascetic aesthetic
Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 1,013
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
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I think that more than anything, it's the standards of formal writing that become inadequate in describing a psychedelic experience. Have you ever noticed how effective poets like Frost or Joyce are? Once you can get past the limitations of formal English, you can describe a lot more, a lot better.
Even so, I do agree that some things cannot be expressed through words at all, and that nothing can be described perfectly. The answer to this problem is to simply not describe at all! Silence can convey more than the vague approximations of meaning known as language. "Don't speak, just be here now."
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In another Time's Forgotten Space, your Eyes looked through your Mother's Face:
Wildflower Seed on the Sand and Stone, may the Four Winds blow you Safely Home!
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