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InvisibleMinstrel
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
Loc: Hogtown
Every terrorist fighting against you in Iraq....
    #8573726 - 06/28/08 08:50 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

is one that cannot fight you in your homeland?  Isn't that basically the idea? 

No matter what got you in, and who might have done it, who you might have over thrown... that one point  still persists, no matter how the whims of the in-power administration might change, to re-dictate why you are there.  Iraq, or Afganistan, be it WMDs, or 9-11, no matter what public opinion might even be, what further truths might be revealed ..... you are fighting them over there, so you don't have to fight them here; that doesn't change.

Shall we discuss?

I'm particularly interested in who else might be benefiting from this policy. 

After all, a terrorist busy fighting you on the terrorist homeland, is one not fighting anyone else either.  If your rational is sound, all countries must benefit from this policy, since they all would have a reduced risk of terror.

*Not to say the terrorist can't have multiple enemies, simply that they can't devote all their attention and effort to multiple particular goals, or missions, at once.


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Edited by Minstrel (06/28/08 08:54 AM)

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Every terrorist fighting against you in Iraq.... [Re: Minstrel]
    #8573858 - 06/28/08 09:49 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

The logic is sound as long as it follows that every terrorist we want to fight there is willing to engage us there instead of just going elsewhere.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Every terrorist fighting against you in Iraq.... [Re: Minstrel]
    #8574331 - 06/28/08 01:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

you are fighting them over there, so you don't have to fight them here; that doesn't change.



Have you ever once bothered to ask yourself why a "terrorist" would want to come over here in the first place?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibledownforpot
Stranger
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Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
Re: Every terrorist fighting against you in Iraq.... [Re: Minstrel]
    #8574464 - 06/28/08 02:17 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Minstrel said:
is one that cannot fight you in your homeland?  Isn't that basically the idea? 

No matter what got you in, and who might have done it, who you might have over thrown... that one point  still persists, no matter how the whims of the in-power administration might change, to re-dictate why you are there.  Iraq, or Afganistan, be it WMDs, or 9-11, no matter what public opinion might even be, what further truths might be revealed ..... you are fighting them over there, so you don't have to fight them here; that doesn't change.

Shall we discuss?

I'm particularly interested in who else might be benefiting from this policy. 

After all, a terrorist busy fighting you on the terrorist homeland, is one not fighting anyone else either.  If your rational is sound, all countries must benefit from this policy, since they all would have a reduced risk of terror.

*Not to say the terrorist can't have multiple enemies, simply that they can't devote all their attention and effort to multiple particular goals, or missions, at once.




That really doesn't make any sense considering the fact that America is a target and they want to hit us here too.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Every terrorist fighting against you in Iraq.... [Re: Icelander]
    #8574690 - 06/28/08 03:39 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Have you ever once bothered to ask yourself why a "terrorist" would want to come over here in the first place?




Yes I have.  I think I have an answer.  It's because we haven't done just exactly what they want us to do and have done things that they don't want us to do.  Just why I should give a fuck what homicidal maniacs want me (or us) to do or not do remains unclear.  Perhaps you can enlighten me.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
Re: Every terrorist fighting against you in Iraq.... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8574728 - 06/28/08 03:49 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Have you ever once bothered to ask yourself why a "terrorist" would want to come over here in the first place?




Yes I have.  I think I have an answer.  It's because we haven't done just exactly what they want us to do and have done things that they don't want us to do.  Just why I should give a fuck what homicidal maniacs want me (or us) to do or not do remains unclear.  Perhaps you can enlighten me.




We haven't done what they want? We are stuck in Iraq spending all our fucking money and fucking up our military. Not to mention throwing money left and right. That is how a lot of empires fell... they went "broke" after spending a ton of money during wars due to incompetence.

However, we have done a few things they didn't want us to do such as engaging with talks with the insurgents to let them secure the country. This is actually from the Art of War too. However, we could have done this at the start by taking control of the Iraqi Army and having them secure the country. Straight from the Art of War.

I suggest that you read Art of War and try looking at how our leaders have completely ignored the basics of waging a successful war.




II. Waging War

1. Sun Tzu said: In the operations of war, where there are in the field a thousand swift chariots, as many heavy chariots, and a hundred thousand mail-clad soldiers, with provisions enough to carry them a thousand li, the expenditure at home and at the front, including entertainment of guests, small items such as glue and paint, and sums spent on chariots and armor, will reach the total of a thousand ounces of silver per day. Such is the cost of raising an army of 100,000 men.

2. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be damped. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength.

3. Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain.

4. Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor damped, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue.

5. Thus, though we have heard of stupid haste in war, cleverness has never been seen associated with long delays.

6. There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.

7. It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on.

8. The skillful soldier does not raise a second levy, neither are his supply-wagons loaded more than twice.

9. Bring war material with you from home, but forage on the enemy. Thus the army will have food enough for its needs.

10. Poverty of the State exchequer causes an army to be maintained by contributions from a distance. Contributing to maintain an army at a distance causes the people to be impoverished.

11. On the other hand, the proximity of an army causes prices to go up; and high prices cause the people's substance to be drained away.

12. When their substance is drained away, the peasantry will be afflicted by heavy exactions.

13,14. With this loss of substance and exhaustion of strength, the homes of the people will be stripped bare, and three-tenths of their income will be dissipated; while government expenses for broken chariots, worn-out horses, breast-plates and helmets, bows and arrows, spears and shields, protective mantles, draught-oxen and heavy wagons, will amount to four-tenths of its total revenue.

15. Hence a wise general makes a point of foraging on the enemy. One cartload of the enemy's provisions is equivalent to twenty of one's own, and likewise a single picul of his provender is equivalent to twenty from one's own store.

-Art of War (http://classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html)


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

Edited by downforpot (06/28/08 03:51 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Every terrorist fighting against you in Iraq.... [Re: downforpot]
    #8574757 - 06/28/08 03:56 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Have you ever once bothered to ask yourself why a "terrorist" would want to come over here in the first place?




Yes I have.  I think I have an answer.  It's because we haven't done just exactly what they want us to do and have done things that they don't want us to do.  Just why I should give a fuck what homicidal maniacs want me (or us) to do or not do remains unclear.  Perhaps you can enlighten me.




We haven't done what they want? We are stuck in Iraq spending all our fucking money and fucking up our military. Not to mention throwing money left and right. That is how a lot of empires fell... they went "broke" after spending a ton of money during wars due to incompetence.




Oh, I see, they are attacking us because we are doing what they want us to do.  How incredibly impressive that you have plumbed the terrorist mind and determined that they want us to keep troops in the Middle East.  You are surely much wiser than most.


--------------------

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Invisibledownforpot
Stranger
Male
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
Re: Every terrorist fighting against you in Iraq.... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8575050 - 06/28/08 05:41 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

downforpot said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Have you ever once bothered to ask yourself why a "terrorist" would want to come over here in the first place?




Yes I have.  I think I have an answer.  It's because we haven't done just exactly what they want us to do and have done things that they don't want us to do.  Just why I should give a fuck what homicidal maniacs want me (or us) to do or not do remains unclear.  Perhaps you can enlighten me.




We haven't done what they want? We are stuck in Iraq spending all our fucking money and fucking up our military. Not to mention throwing money left and right. That is how a lot of empires fell... they went "broke" after spending a ton of money during wars due to incompetence.




Oh, I see, they are attacking us because we are doing what they want us to do.  How incredibly impressive that you have plumbed the terrorist mind and determined that they want us to keep troops in the Middle East.  You are surely much wiser than most.




No, I just read the Art of War.  Sun Tzu specifically states that waging war in such fashion is an extremely bad idea.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
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Re: Every terrorist fighting against you in Iraq.... [Re: downforpot]
    #8575151 - 06/28/08 06:20 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:
Sun Tzu specifically states that waging war in such fashion is an extremely bad idea.




In the time of Sun Tzu money was based on substance, today it's
pulled from the ass of the president and based on our blood

"The Way of War is A Way of Deception." -Sun Tzu

"The prime necessity for the success in such a war is an army entirely clear as to why it is fighting and thoroughly convinced of the justice of its cause."  -K'ung fu tzu

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Invisibledownforpot
Stranger
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Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
Re: Every terrorist fighting against you in Iraq.... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8576434 - 06/29/08 04:13 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

downforpot said:
Sun Tzu specifically states that waging war in such fashion is an extremely bad idea.




In the time of Sun Tzu money was based on substance, today it's
pulled from the ass of the president and based on our blood

"The Way of War is A Way of Deception." -Sun Tzu

"The prime necessity for the success in such a war is an army entirely clear as to why it is fighting and thoroughly convinced of the justice of its cause."  -K'ung fu tzu




True.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Every terrorist fighting against you in Iraq.... [Re: Minstrel]
    #8576484 - 06/29/08 05:08 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I guess we are just supposed to ignore all of the ordinary Iraqi citizens that could give a fuck about hurting Americans until a friend or relative was accidentally killed by US bombs or 'friendly' fire.

And I am sure the over 2 million (8% of the population) Iraqi refugees (repeat after me: not a civil war) certainly bear no ill will towards America for totally ruining their lives as most will never be able to return to their homeland.

At least we set them 'free'...


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Every terrorist fighting against you in Iraq.... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8576650 - 06/29/08 07:33 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Have you ever once bothered to ask yourself why a "terrorist" would want to come over here in the first place?




Yes I have.  I think I have an answer.  It's because we haven't done just exactly what they want us to do and have done things that they don't want us to do.  Just why I should give a fuck what homicidal maniacs want me (or us) to do or not do remains unclear.  Perhaps you can enlighten me.




Closed minds cannot be enlightened.

America has stuck it military nose all over the world with the goal of securing abundant resources  for ourselves. Often at a cost to those cultures. Of course this is unimportant to you but to them it is.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Every terrorist fighting against you in Iraq.... [Re: Icelander]
    #8576714 - 06/29/08 08:21 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Closed minds cannot be enlightened.




"open minds are only open to thoughts that parallel their own"

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InvisibleMinstrel
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Posts: 1,974
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Re: Every terrorist fighting against you in Iraq.... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8576790 - 06/29/08 09:18 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

So, no one seems to want to think about who SPECIFICALLY might benefit from this policy?  Since other nations benefit from the terrorists being tied up defending against the siege of their homeland (a required assumption, in this case, though I'm inclined to think it false), since they are busy fighting America, then America cannot be considered to be the country who ultimately benefits from this policy.  When collateral damage is considered, and the cost in material and meat (with guns), the expenditure sees no return, and further enemies are created, hence, digging a deeper pit.  Propaganda will need to exemplify sacrafice and honour, and other rather meaningless words to justify the aggression. 


Okay, lets assume a hypothetical terrorist:

Lets say terrorist is from the Islamic world, hence, is in a position to take action against the classic terrorist enemy, Israel.  Terrorists might have a vendetta against the rest of the western world because of freedom and bikinis (again, an assumption), but why would a Jihadist (delicious propaganda) wage war on France or Germany when Israel is closer, and requires no intercontinental travel?  Hence, Israel is likely to be country most imperiled by terrorism.  I think it is a fair assumption, regardless of propaganda.

So, at best, the policy of "Fighting them over there so as to not fight them here" is more correctly "Fighting them there, so they aren't fighting Israel".


--------------------

Edited by Minstrel (06/29/08 09:19 AM)

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Offlineblackegg
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Re: Every terrorist fighting against you in Iraq.... [Re: Minstrel]
    #8576937 - 06/29/08 10:45 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The logic is sound as long as it follows that every terrorist we want to fight there is willing to engage us there instead of just going elsewhere.




Here we go round the mullberry bush...
... the mullberry bush.... the mullberry bush....
:flowstone::popcorn:


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison

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Invisibledownforpot
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Registered: 06/25/01
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Re: Every terrorist fighting against you in Iraq.... [Re: Icelander]
    #8577054 - 06/29/08 11:44 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:



America has stuck it military nose all over the world with the goal of securing abundant resources  for ourselves. Often at a cost to those cultures. Of course this is unimportant to you but to them it is.




Wow wow. There is nothing wrong with securing resources. However, there is everything wrong with being a complete fucking idiot about it which Bush has done... Fucking incompetent piece of shit.

Quote:

Minstrel said:
So, no one seems to want to think about who SPECIFICALLY might benefit from this policy?  Since other nations benefit from the terrorists being tied up defending against the siege of their homeland (a required assumption, in this case, though I'm inclined to think it false), since they are busy fighting America, then America cannot be considered to be the country who ultimately benefits from this policy.  When collateral damage is considered, and the cost in material and meat (with guns), the expenditure sees no return, and further enemies are created, hence, digging a deeper pit.  Propaganda will need to exemplify sacrafice and honour, and other rather meaningless words to justify the aggression. 


Okay, lets assume a hypothetical terrorist:

Lets say terrorist is from the Islamic world, hence, is in a position to take action against the classic terrorist enemy, Israel.  Terrorists might have a vendetta against the rest of the western world because of freedom and bikinis (again, an assumption), but why would a Jihadist (delicious propaganda) wage war on France or Germany when Israel is closer, and requires no intercontinental travel?  Hence, Israel is likely to be country most imperiled by terrorism.  I think it is a fair assumption, regardless of propaganda.

So, at best, the policy of "Fighting them over there so as to not fight them here" is more correctly "Fighting them there, so they aren't fighting Israel".





You are still ignoring the fact that they want to attack us here.

Not to mention the fact that we are draining our resources....


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

Edited by downforpot (06/29/08 11:45 AM)

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InvisibleMinstrel
Man of Science
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
Loc: Hogtown
Re: Every terrorist fighting against you in Iraq.... [Re: downforpot]
    #8577129 - 06/29/08 12:18 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:

You are still ignoring the fact that they want to attack us here.

Not to mention the fact that we are draining our resources....




I didn't mean to ignore it, I just omitted it.  Of course these hypothetical terrorists want to attack you there, after the fact, but it is a more difficult target, given the need for overseas travel.


--------------------

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Every terrorist fighting against you in Iraq.... [Re: Minstrel]
    #8577153 - 06/29/08 12:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I don't recall bin Laden citing Israel until he got a press agent.  They're just batshit crazy.


--------------------

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Invisibledownforpot
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Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
Re: Every terrorist fighting against you in Iraq.... [Re: Minstrel]
    #8577196 - 06/29/08 12:44 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Minstrel said:
Quote:

downforpot said:

You are still ignoring the fact that they want to attack us here.

Not to mention the fact that we are draining our resources....




I didn't mean to ignore it, I just omitted it.  Of course these hypothetical terrorists want to attack you there, after the fact, but it is a more difficult target, given the need for overseas travel.




Ignore and omit are synonyms. If overseas travel was a problem then there would have never been a 9/11.  Plus if you haven't noticed there are whites that are joining Al Qaeda.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I don't recall bin Laden citing Israel until he got a press agent.  They're just batshit crazy.




Yep.  Bin Laden did not give a fuck about Israel. Muslims and Jews have been fighting over that shit for centuries. So the only reason he and a lot of other Muslims are pissy is because we station our troops on Muslim lands. That is the same reason they hate Israel... They don't want anyone but Muslims having power in that area. Fuck them.

So basically even if America  never got involved in that region the Muslims and the Jews would still be slaughtering each other.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

Edited by downforpot (06/29/08 12:47 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Every terrorist fighting against you in Iraq.... [Re: downforpot]
    #8577235 - 06/29/08 12:54 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

The Jews wouldn't be "slaughtering" any Muslims if they were just left alone.  The reverse cannot be said for the Muslims.  And I agree, fuck them.


--------------------

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