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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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The Generic Religion Bashing thread
    #8559308 - 06/24/08 08:00 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

My apologies to WhiskeyClone for not yet writing the 'Ultimate Christian Bashing' thread.




Why do I cover the same tired, old ground? Simple! Because I rarely get a straightforward answer to my reasonable queries.

Let's try again.

1. Religions lay out a set of laws to follow to get closer to or to please their God(s).

2. People join/follow such religions allegedly because they believe in the teachings.

3. Therefore religious members should diligently attempt to follow the teachings and avoid sin.

As the difference in immoral acts is not lower among religious groups than non-religious group (in general) then we MUST conclude one or both of the following:

1. The rules are impossible to follow.

2. The followers really don't give a damn about pleasing their God and/or walking their chosen path beyond lip service.

If I am in error, I would like to hear it. Try to stay on track.


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InvisibleCrasher
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8559583 - 06/24/08 09:13 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

As the difference in immoral acts is not lower among religious groups than non-religious group




Provide a source or claim this as speculation.

I would say it is accepted that your first conclusion is more accurate.


In Christianity, the abandonment of Old Testament law and creation of a new covenant through Christ is a prime example of what is to be perceived as our inability to follow God's law.

Stoicism gives a simple commission to live in tune with nature, which includes the dismissal of issues beyond our control. How many people attempt to control issues and circumstances beyond our grasp?

If anything, religious doctrine sets forth principles we should strive for, and failing that, understand that we aren't perfect.

I believe any individual can fall into one of these two conclusions you've given, but disagree that a believer must fall into one as  a result of sin or misconduct.


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...


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OfflineTameMe
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Crasher]
    #8559735 - 06/24/08 09:48 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I'm in agreement with Crasher.

In fact, last semester, in Social Psychology...the stats show that crimes are committed less by religious people.


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: TameMe]
    #8560004 - 06/24/08 10:45 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TameMe said:
In fact, last semester, in Social Psychology...the stats show that crimes are committed less by religious people.




Does this mean religious people are making the laws?


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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OfflineTameMe
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Cracka_X]
    #8560108 - 06/24/08 11:13 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I wasn't jumping to that conclusion.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: TameMe]
    #8560265 - 06/24/08 11:56 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TameMe said:
I'm in agreement with Crasher.

In fact, last semester, in Social Psychology...the stats show that crimes are committed less by religious people.




I recommend that you verify those statistics.  Did your textbook cite sources?  Here's some interesting data:

Quote:

In 2005, about 1 out of every 136 U.S. residents was incarcerated either in prison or jail.[13] The total amount being 2,320,359, with 1,446,269 in state and federal prisons and 747,529 in local jails.




Map of religious adherents in U.S.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/compuswrld.htm

For more about this, check out this post.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Veritas]
    #8560635 - 06/25/08 01:46 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

There is no sociologically valid basis for comparing "theists to nontheists" with regards to incarceration rates (or any other sociological measure) because "theists" do not constitute an identifiable social group. The fact that non-practicing (functionally nonreligious) people are highly over-represented among prisoners is a separate issue, apart from questions relating to belief and philosophical position.
To consider incarceration rates of "atheists" vs. "theists" is like comparing Hispanics to non-Hispanics. While it may be possible to group figures that way, it doesn't make a lot of sense to do so. Non-Hispanics are better broken down into Asians, African-Americans and Whites (if one doesn't further break them down by other factors such as age, education, etc.) Likewise, it makes no sense to group all non-atheists together, as if Amish, Muslims, Quakers, Baha'is, Hindus, Presbyterians, Orthodox Jews, Baptists, Deists, Lutherans, Unitarians, Rastafarians, Wiccans, etc., all exhibited similar behavior. Obviously some of these groups exhibit relatively little criminal behavior, while others would exhibit relatively more criminal behavior. Certain crimes are more prevalent among certain groups. 85% of Americans cite a specific religious affiliation. So if you combine figures for people of all religious affiliations you get essentially the same figure that you would get for the whole U.S. population. The figure would only be different if essentially all religious groups were skewed in one direction, which they are not.

A person's philosophical position about the existence of God is distinct from that person's ethical behavior. A person's position on this single point is not a predictor of ethical or criminal behavior, any more than a person's preference for country vs. rock music. Atheism does not necessarily equate to criminal or unethical behavior, just as a professed belief in God does not necessarily preclude criminal or unethical behavior.

One problem faced by some religious writers as well as some atheist writers who have tried to equate religious belief or atheism with criminal behavior (and probably a major reason why there is no empirical data to support either contention) is that a person's philosophical position on this one point is not the major factor in determining criminal behavior. Factors such as level of income, employment/non-employment, level of education, race, geographical region, age, sex, etc. are all tracked by the government and other organizations. All of these characteristics correlate more readily to criminal behavior. (GLBT status, on the other hand, has not been shown to correlate generally to incarceration rate, although it is highly correlated with pedophilia. According to gay researchers Karla Jay and Allen Young, 73 percent of the gay men they report having engaged in sex with boys 16 to 19 years of age or younger; 86 percent of convicted child molesters who molested boys describe themselves as homosexual or bisexual. See also: World Net Daily article; More)

There is no monolithic group of "theists." This is a term that describes a philosophical position (as identified by atheists), not a self-identifying group of people. People may congregate with other Catholics, other Muslims, other hockey fans at a sports event, other Stephen King fans at a book club, other mothers at a play group, other gays at a bar, etc. but "theists" do not come together as a single group, and do not exhibit an identifiable pattern of social behavior. Likewise, atheists are not a monolithic group, and most atheists are not formally affiliated with any organization based on their atheism. Like theists, atheists are found among all races, ages, levels of income, religions, etc., and those factors are going to correlate far more readily to statistically predictable patterns of social behavior, including levels of incarceration.






http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html


--------------------


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Offlineigwna
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: TameMe]
    #8560757 - 06/25/08 02:19 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TameMe said:
I'm in agreement with Crasher.

In fact, last semester, in Social Psychology...the stats show that crimes are committed less by religious people.





but that doesn't mean they don't have a track record for being just as brutal.


the crusades, holy wars, jihads, holocaust, whatever you call it its still a lot of dead people because of religion.


--------------------
I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.



Edited by igwna (06/25/08 02:20 AM)


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: igwna]
    #8561102 - 06/25/08 04:32 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Well fuck.  Cut it in half and fight over it??  God-like.:what:


--------------------


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8561664 - 06/25/08 11:00 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
2. People join/follow such religions allegedly because they believe in the teachings.





I don't think this is usually true.  I think most people 'join' religions because their parents take them to church, where they learn bits and pieces of some bastardized mythology and struggle to make sense of it their entire lives.  It's not voluntary, and whatever they happen to learn is just added to their growing body of beliefs about the world they live in.  The mythology may well have been derived from a consistent, sensible method of living one's life, but the version preached today (and in the last ten centuries or so) by power-hungry religious institutions may be completely removed from the original meaning. 

So what are they left with?  A lot of horseshit, with a few gems of useful wisdom.  And maybe, if they think to look for it, the faintest outline of a simple, brilliant set of instructions for living consciously and happily, hidden among volumes and volumes of superfluous fables and other extraneous material.

I think this distortion plagues Christianity much more than say Buddhism, whose core lessons still make perfect logical sense.  There have been dogmatic interpretations and institutions in the past 25 centuries, but they have not interfered with anyone's understanding of the four noble truths, and what can be built on them.

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:

As the difference in immoral acts is not lower among religious groups than non-religious group (in general) then we MUST conclude one or both of the following:

1. The rules are impossible to follow.

2. The followers really don't give a damn about pleasing their God and/or walking their chosen path beyond lip service.





MUST eh?

I'm sure those two options cover a lot of people, but what about:

3. The perceived 'reward' for following the rules (closeness to God) is misunderstood by many of the followers, and the nonexistence of the reward they are looking for inspires all sorts of desperate or illogical behavior.  Human nature (as in the desires for security, comfort, esteem, material things) will often win when it comes in conflict with the desire to follow the tenets of one's religion, particularly if they have an utterly mistaken idea of what it is that they will receive in return. 

Quote:

Why do I cover the same tired, old ground? Simple! Because I rarely get a straightforward answer to my reasonable queries.

Let's try again.




What I don't understand is what you hope to accomplish here?  To demonstrate that most contemporary religious behavior is insane?  I think that one's already obvious, isn't it?  It's such an easy target, I guess I just don't know why it's still fun for you after all these years.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8561726 - 06/25/08 11:20 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Would you agree that the claim "religious people commit fewer crimes" would be demonstrated by the percentages of religious believers in prison?  Since the U.S. is one of the most-religious first-world countries, we should be able to see the positive effects of religion in our crime rate and # of people in prison, right?


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8561746 - 06/25/08 11:33 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Oh, and just to respond to that drive-by homosexual-bashing reference included in your quote:

Quote:

GLBT status, on the other hand, has not been shown to correlate generally to incarceration rate, although it is highly correlated with pedophilia. According to gay researchers Karla Jay and Allen Young, 73 percent of the gay men they report having engaged in sex with boys 16 to 19 years of age or younger; 86 percent of convicted child molesters who molested boys describe themselves as homosexual or bisexual.




This is B.S.  Pedophilia is highly correlated with heterosexuality, as most childhood sexual abuse is committed against girls by men.  Pedophilia is also highly correlated with being related to or known by children, since most sexual abuse is perpetrated by a relative or friend of the family. 

Child Molestation Article

Also, pedophilia is being sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children, not to teenagers.  Men who have sex with 16 - 19 year olds are not pedophiles.


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Offlinedill705
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Veritas]
    #8561839 - 06/25/08 12:05 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I just want to bash religion...

:bitchsmack:

Stop believing in fairy tales meant to control you by your fear of death.

:bitchslap: Just for good measure.


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: dill705]
    #8561914 - 06/25/08 12:35 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

i'll just join in.

religion is like totally dumb.

recently i did explain to two mormons how i think we're making machines to replace humans because robots would have a greater capacity for holiness than us.  i thought that was pretty fun and couldn't have done it in a religion less world.


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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Offlinedill705
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8561920 - 06/25/08 12:37 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

:lol:


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8561962 - 06/25/08 12:49 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


1. Religions lay out a set of laws to follow to get closer to or to please their God(s).




Not all religions do. Wicca doesn't. "Do as you want but harm no one" is a rule to live in harmony with the cosmos and have a smooth life, not to please a God.

Quote:

2. People join/follow such religions allegedly because they believe in the teachings.




Many people do but not all. The Dutch Satanic Church is an example of a religion many members joined for the tax benefits.

Quote:


3. Therefore religious members should diligently attempt to follow the teachings and avoid sin.




Not all religions believe there is such a thing as sin. "Therefore" does not apply as your above conditions are false, and overly generalized.


Quote:


As the difference in immoral acts is not lower among religious groups than non-religious group (in general)




PROVE IT. You cannot. In fact it is blatantly false because the Satanic Church encourages and expects people to engage in immoral acts. Generalizing once more are we?

Quote:

1. The rules are impossible to follow.

2. The followers really don't give a damn about pleasing their God and/or walking their chosen path beyond lip service.





No shoes, no shirt, no service.

Your logic is flawed and based on sweeping generalizations without intimate knowledge of all individual religions which are painted with the same brush.

The title "The Generic Religion Bashing thread" would be the only correct concept in your threadstarting post were it not your line of reasoning is specific, not generic.

Your use of language is correct however.

:owned:


--------------------
YE OLDE CLICK-O-RAMA FEST :fairy: ASANTE'S PREPAREDNESS 101
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Edited by Asante (06/25/08 12:50 PM)


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Asante]
    #8562051 - 06/25/08 01:11 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


   
Quote:

As the difference in immoral acts is not lower among religious groups than non-religious group (in general)




PROVE IT. You cannot. In fact it is blatantly false because the Satanic Church encourages and expects people to engage in immoral acts. Generalizing once more are we?




I think you may have missed the "is not lower" part.  :confused:  He also qualified this statement with "in general," so it has already been established that he is generalizing.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8562087 - 06/25/08 01:20 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

What I don't understand is what you hope to accomplish here? 




Even more puzzling is the folks that know I am a broken record and yet still wander in to counter my lame arguments with even lamer counter-arguments.

:rofl2:


--------------------


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8562190 - 06/25/08 01:44 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Senor_Hongos said:
86 percent of convicted child molesters who molested boys describe themselves as homosexual or bisexual.




This is a very sad topic, but this sentence is fortunately quite funny.

Males that molest other males are usually homosexual or bisexual - OMG surprise!


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8562204 - 06/25/08 01:46 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

What I don't understand is what you hope to accomplish here? 




Even more puzzling is the folks that know I am a broken record and yet still wander in to counter my lame arguments with even lamer counter-arguments.

:rofl2:




*sigh*

It is just so hard to get a straightforward answer to my reasonable queries


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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