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Offlinewishywashy
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Registered: 05/24/08
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Re: omgot all my stuff ready... final prep questions everybody! [Re: wishywashy]
    #8604129 - 07/07/08 01:03 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

7/7/07 - 1.5 weeks after inoculation:

my jars are all at least 50% colonized. w00t and no contams yet either.

i have another b+ syringe that i want to put to a first attemptat bulk substrate growing.
i'll be doing a BRFV substrate, not sure how to prep it though. any suggestions?


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OfflineMHbound
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Re: omgot all my stuff ready... final prep questions everybody! [Re: wishywashy]
    #8604210 - 07/07/08 01:33 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

With BRF the only thing you can do is make cakes. I tried to shake them one time very moderately to use similar to my grain jars, but it didn't work. There were too many little pieces that wouldn't get colonized properly...Which I scraped off, but were also wasted when you think about it.

Make cakes, crumble them up in a ziplock back(they are sterile out of the factory), and case them like you would any grain jar.


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Offlinewishywashy
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Re: omgot all my stuff ready... final prep questions everybody! [Re: MHbound]
    #8604273 - 07/07/08 01:54 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

case meaning line them with verm or something?

i haven't used a FC yet so i'm not sure whether to set it up for cakes or a tin of substrate brick


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life rolls on

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OfflineMHbound
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Re: omgot all my stuff ready... final prep questions everybody! [Re: wishywashy]
    #8604364 - 07/07/08 02:29 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Since this is your first grow I would use the cakes. Casing can get tough, and definitely gets tough when it comes to contaminates.

Dunk your cakes in a bucket, and use something to hold them under water for...6-24 hours no more than 24. I usually use about 12-16 somewhere in there. This will rehydrate your cakes that it probably lost during the colonization.

Then take the cakes and roll them in dry vermiculite. It will increase your yields.


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OfflinePowerOfTheCoir
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Registered: 07/02/08
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Re: omgot all my stuff ready... final prep questions everybody! [Re: wishywashy]
    #8604765 - 07/07/08 04:25 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

wishywashy said:
case meaning line them with verm or something?

i haven't used a FC yet so i'm not sure whether to set it up for cakes or a tin of substrate brick




You probably want to stick to the dunk and roll as MHbound said. If you want a refresher on birthing and the dunk and roll, check out RR's videos on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHJQrsZFQdE

You're past the first part of the videos since you've already made and injected your jars, but the rest will be informative. Theres even a simple to make FC in there. It's a 4 part series, so make sure you see the whole thing. Just skip past the jar prep if you want.

The casing method that someone alluded to in the "crumble and case" method. It has risks and advantages, but by itself it just isn't, in my opinion, worth the effort and risk. If you mix the pieces of crumbled cake with some nutritious bulk substrate, like poo, straw, coir, or a mix, you can greatly increase your yield. Again there are risks and it may not be a good way to start.

As far as your FC goes, you don't need to pick whether it will be for cakes or tins/trays. Cakes need 99-100% humiditiy. Cased subs can get away with a little less, but they won't mind high humidity either. They'll actually appreciate it. If you make a good basic FC, like the Shotgun FC from the video, you can use it for cakes or put tins/trays in there. The idea that casings need lower humidity is outdated but still gets passed around with all of the old teks.


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Shroom capsules with the Cap-M-Quik (pics)

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InvisibleBlutjager
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Re: omgot all my stuff ready... final prep questions everybody! [Re: MHbound]
    #8605241 - 07/07/08 06:26 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MHbound said:
Since this is your first grow I would use the cakes.


  :slitwrist::suicide: PLEASE for the love of whatever useless Deity you waste your time worshiping read the link in my Sig and than in that link click the other link in my post there for my opinions on cakes,I know its only my own personal opinion and not everyone agrees with me but as far as I'm concerned it is that sentence right there that makes half the people who try their hand at mycology never ever try it again and it should never ever be said to someone who is just trying to learn the ropes,ya learn the ropes making cakes and you will find yourself using said rope to hang yourself from the ceiling fan :suicide::slitwrist:

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OfflineMHbound
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Re: omgot all my stuff ready... final prep questions everybody! [Re: Blutjager]
    #8605601 - 07/07/08 07:40 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I feel you Blutjager, but I really don't know if he is ready to go to casing. I would hate for his first grow to be a failure. When you add casing you just add another chance for contaminates.

I guess its really up to him...If you want to risk it for more mushrooms then go for it, however, I probably wouldn't. I would probably continue what you are doing, and the next grow continue with cakes...BUT start trying some new things along with the cakes. Such as Blutjager's LC TEK he has there, and some other 50/50 TEK's. Actually, you could go ahead and get you a nice LC going for next round. Hell you could go ahead, and start a few grain jars. I would say...Start with rye. I find it the most forgiving...That or WBS(Wild bird seed).


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OfflinePowerOfTheCoir
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Re: omgot all my stuff ready... final prep questions everybody! [Re: Blutjager]
    #8605611 - 07/07/08 07:43 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Blutjager said:
Quote:

MHbound said:
Since this is your first grow I would use the cakes.


  :slitwrist::suicide: PLEASE for the love of whatever useless Deity you waste your time worshiping read the link in my Sig and than in that link click the other link in my post there for my opinions on cakes,I know its only my own personal opinion and not everyone agrees with me but as far as I'm concerned it is that sentence right there that makes half the people who try their hand at mycology never ever try it again and it should never ever be said to someone who is just trying to learn the ropes,ya learn the ropes making cakes and you will find yourself using said rope to hang yourself from the ceiling fan :suicide::slitwrist:





The advantages of cakes for beginners are as follows (in ascending order of importance):

1)They don't require a pressure cooker. If you have a PC, this is irrelevant, but if you are just starting out and don't want to make the investment, cakes are the way to go.

2)Cakes are easier for newbies since they require less judgment. Making cakes just involves clearly stated amounts of ingredients. Most other steps also involve little judgment. Dunk for 24 hours, roll in verm and let whatever sticks stay, put on 3-5 inches of wet perlite. These directions involve little interpretation. When people get creative, they know they are stepping outside of the tek. With grain and casings, you have lots of relative amounts. What does fully hydrated grain look like? It's tough if you haven't seen it before. What is field capacity? It takes judgment based on experience and it's a lot to ask new people to make these calls.

3) Most importantly, cakes can be made with complete, well-known, start-to-harvest single teks. Whether people use the PF Tek, MMGG, or RR's youtube videos, they have a clear map from start to finish and the techniques are very reliable. Just about every failure of these methods can be traced to a decision to divert from the tek and use something else. With grain and casings, users typically have to carefully select teks for every step of the way and understand which teks work together and which don't. Many of the teks involve techniques that have been since debunked or at least strongly questioned. Growers with a little experience can do a decent job putting together the steps in the right way, weeding out the suspect advice, and then executing a successful grow. New users often use some of the first information they find and that's why so much time is spent on this board squashing out the same bad info over and over again. Sadly it's not because newbies aren't searching first - it's because they search and find outdated info.

There are some complete grain teks, but again, they usually advocate very controversial techniques without advising users of the possible downsides. Your favorite grain tek seems to be the one by Magash. Magash is an awesome poster and I can't touch his level of success, so this criticism is meant with the greatest respect. In his tek, he advocates 50/50 casing with coir/verm. Although this can be successful, there seems to be an emerging consensus that coir casings are prone to overlay. He advocates bottom casing and top casing layer as thick as the substrate. Bottom casing is now mostly frowned upon and casing layers seem to be a lot thinner in most grows, with a 1:4 ratio being a common general rule. I think that his technique works well for some people because he inadvertently created a bulk substrate instead of a casing layer since he put so much nutritious coir in there. His Martha design is great, but can you really expect most newbies to shell out enough money for a martha, two humdifieres, and the materials for the racks? If they haven't had their first grow yet, they probably want to save the bigger investments until they are sure they like growing. This means they have to look outside the tek for a critical component and have a chance to insert bad advice. Magash got great results and is an excellent person to learn from, but sending a newbie directly to his tek will just get them lost.

I read the links. From what I can see, in the first link a new user used cakes for his first grow, had a syringe with a mysterious blue tint, and tried to mix-and-match parts of cake teks. I looked up his other posts and he ended up only losing one cake to contamination. He didn't get a huge yield, but it was okay and included a nice 50g single fruit. He had problems and got frustrated, but he by no means gave up and posted another grow log (this time after moving up to rye) so he definitely didn't quit after cakes. He did have some big problems with the rye though.

Now I know that the yield from cakes isn't usually impressive (although Magash's cake yield is respectable). this is fine for a newbie though. As long as they don't have dreams of becoming some shroom-growing drug lord with their first yield, they'll be fine. They'll get enough for their own use and a few friends. They'll know if they want to pursue the hobby or not. They will have learned a basic tek that they can then modify to whatever extent they think they can handle. When they encounter new techniques, they can understand their relevance since they understand the old technique that they were meant to improve.

Some people can definitely start with grains and casing. These are people who are willing to do a ton of reading first though, and they should be able to perform some critical analysis. To say that this is for everyone, though, I believe is a mistake.


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Shroom capsules with the Cap-M-Quik (pics)

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Offlinemrjim202000
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Re: omgot all my stuff ready... final prep questions everybody! [Re: PowerOfTheCoir]
    #8605696 - 07/07/08 08:07 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

on a side note (if you can rant so can I) I am working on a grain TEK for the simpletons and the lazy alike.  I will post as I get conclusive results but I do have spotty internet connection so those really interested PM me and I will get back to you first.  sorry I meant this not as a hijack but as a side post that seemed to fit

peace


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dont tell lies, there will be less to remember

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InvisibleBlutjager
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Re: omgot all my stuff ready... final prep questions everybody! [Re: PowerOfTheCoir]
    #8605699 - 07/07/08 08:08 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

As I said,Its just my opinion and many people do not agree with it,I just wanted him to read it to see that not everyone agrees that cakes are the way to start,I was led to believe this and I sure wish someone would have pointed me in a better direction before I knew any better.

I definitely agree that cakes are the only way to go if you have no PC(I also think if you have no PC you shouldn't even bother until you get one)

I link to Magash's rye tek because it was the 1st thing that worked for me,after a few good grows under your belt you learn your style of growing and you do things different,for example I don't soak in individual jars,I soak all at once in buckets,I NEVER used a bottom casing layer and always only case with MGMC.

When it all comes down to it anyone will tell you there are a million different variations as to how people grow mushrooms,some people love one thing and hate another and the next person is the complete opposite,God I have even seen people say they like that ghastly polyfill over tyvek:confused:

I just wanted to make sure someone showed him he doesn't HAVE to grow cakes 1st like everyone usually foolishly leads newbs to believe.

Call me lazy or at least just American:dielaughing:But I'm all about doing the least amount of work for the best possible results and in my experience growing cakes is not only the complete opposite of this but they are a downright disappointment.

There is a reason experienced growers usually(Of coarse there are exceptions)don't grow cakes....Its cause they have learned their lesson and they know better:yesnod:

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InvisibleBlutjager
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Re: omgot all my stuff ready... final prep questions everybody! [Re: mrjim202000]
    #8605701 - 07/07/08 08:09 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mrjim202000 said:
on a side note (if you can rant so can I) I am working on a grain TEK for the simpletons and the lazy alike.  I will post as I get conclusive results but I do have spotty internet connection so those really interested PM me and I will get back to you first.  sorry I meant this not as a hijack but as a side post that seemed to fit

peace




I think we both hijacked it..... Sorry

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OfflinePowerOfTheCoir
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Re: omgot all my stuff ready... final prep questions everybody! [Re: Blutjager]
    #8605787 - 07/07/08 08:30 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, I'd say we have this thread thoroughly hijacked. I want a suitcase full of marked spore prints and a laminar flow hood before I return it.


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Check out my first ever TEK!
Shroom capsules with the Cap-M-Quik (pics)

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OfflineHattori Hanzo
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Re: omgot all my stuff ready... final prep questions everybody! [Re: PowerOfTheCoir]
    #8605873 - 07/07/08 08:51 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

BAHHHA HA. Awesome! I'm trying all the above just to see for myself. Blutjager's signature is what got me to even attempt grain (and am having issues but that is probably me). I love the passion here guys. Just thought I'd say so. :heart:




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First Grow Log
GT&TX DoubleTubs
Malabars and Hawaiians

Keep your ideals high enough to inspire you and low enough to encourage you. --unknown


Edited by Hattori Hanzo (07/07/08 08:58 PM)

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OfflineSelfDestruct
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Re: omgot all my stuff ready... final prep questions everybody! [Re: Hattori Hanzo]
    #8605913 - 07/07/08 09:01 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

this makes me feel miserable about having made cakes now... blah... next time... bulk!

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Offlinewishywashy
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Re: omgot all my stuff ready... final prep questions everybody! [Re: wishywashy]
    #8616154 - 07/10/08 04:27 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

my jars are all to be completely colonized by the weekend. i've got 5 uncontaminated cakes! gonna be doing the dunk n roll then put it ina perlite humidified cooler. how long until fruiting after the dunk n roll? i've been waiting to eat these bad boys since before i ordered from ralph :tongue:


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OfflineMHbound
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Re: omgot all my stuff ready... final prep questions everybody! [Re: wishywashy]
    #8616170 - 07/10/08 04:49 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Hm...If you keep the conditions perfect then in a couple of weeks you can have fruits to eat.


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OfflinePowerOfTheCoir
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Re: omgot all my stuff ready... final prep questions everybody! [Re: SelfDestruct]
    #8616370 - 07/10/08 07:19 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SelfDestruct said:
this makes me feel miserable about having made cakes now... blah... next time... bulk!




Unless you wanted to make a commercial yield, don't beat yourself up. Cakes suck for getting great yields based on the amount of work put it, but they still do a great job of giving enough for "personal exploration." I'm loving WBS now that I "moved on up" though.

PS - I can't remember if you've birthed your cakes yet, but if you haven't, look into a small bulk grow. You can crumble your cakes and spawn that to coir/coffee and get a big increase in yield. If you have a big tub w/perlite, you can even split your grow and have cakes next to a bulk tray or two.


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Check out my first ever TEK!
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Offlinewishywashy
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Re: omgot all my stuff ready... final prep questions everybody! [Re: wishywashy]
    #8629573 - 07/13/08 02:42 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

day whatevs.. lost track! 4 out of 5 jars colonized completely. going to initiate the dunk n roll tonite. should i be sterile while dunkin and rollin? i could at least wear gloves to not get yucky mycelium all over maself. \


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life rolls on

Edited by wishywashy (07/13/08 02:49 PM)

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OfflinePowerOfTheCoir
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Re: omgot all my stuff ready... final prep questions everybody! [Re: wishywashy]
    #8630306 - 07/13/08 05:45 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

wishywashy said:
day whatevs.. lost track! 4 out of 5 jars colonized completely. going to initiate the dunk n roll tonite. should i be sterile while dunkin and rollin? i could at least wear gloves to not get yucky mycelium all over maself. \




If you haven't birthed them yet, it may be best to hold off. After full colonization, something is still going on in there. The mycellium is digesting it's food and really getting a good hold on that substrate. This will take about a week, during which, whether birthed or not, they won't start pinning. If they are birthed, dunked and rolled now, they'll spend that week being exposed to contaminants and evaporating off their water supply (which can only go down after reaching such a high level from the dunk). That's why many people reccommend birthing after 100% colonization + 1 week. It won't fruit sooner or later, but the cake's long term health is likely to be a little better.

If you've already birthed, oh well. It's not a huge deal and the cakes usually do fine as long as they reach 100%.

To answer your question - The cakes, once colonized, are contaminant resistant and will be exposed to contaminants in your terrarium anyway. For this reason, total sterility is not needed and rarely even attempted.

Very good cleanliness, however, is strongly recommended. Wash your hands/arms, clean out your dunking container throroughly, clean your workspace. Try not to work near a persistantly moist area where mold is abundant, or next to an open trash can. Dunk water should be clean - either fresh tap water if you trust it (hard water is a plus) or bottled spring water. Distilled water is the least ideal clean water source since mycellium LIKES all of the minerals that make water "hard."

Gloves are optional, but if you're not using them (I often don't for this stage) scrub your hands with soap thoroughly. Pick up one without gloves though, since once you actually feel a colonized cake, you'll see why there's nothing yucky to avoid. Yes, it's a fungus. That makes alot of people think of something gooey, spongey, and generally nasty. It's actually alot closer to something like a raw button mushroom, which you probably wouldn't use gloves to throw in a salad. If you do where gloves, do it to be extra protective of your cakes.


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Shroom capsules with the Cap-M-Quik (pics)

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Offlinewishywashy
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Re: omgot all my stuff ready... final prep questions everybody! [Re: wishywashy]
    #8650248 - 07/18/08 09:10 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

i may have contams... 3 of my jars are showing black stuff between the verm layer and the substrate in the jars. this would make sense, because i sterilized the needle for only 2 of 5 B+ jars i inoculated. is there a way to save these cakes? i will get surgical if i must!


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