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Offlinelonestar2004
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Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen
    #8558637 - 06/24/08 02:37 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

It is now a virtual certainty that the "birth certificate" claimed by the Barack Obama campaign as authentic is a photoshopped fake.

The image, purporting to come from the Hawaii Department of Health, has been the subject of intense skepticism in the blogosphere in the past two weeks.

It has become even more suspect with the revelation that variations of the certificate image were posted on the Photobucket image aggregation website -- including one listing the location of Obama's birth as Antarctica, one with the certificate supposedly issued by the government of North Korea, and another including a purported photo of baby Barack -- one of which has a "photo taken" time-stamp just two minutes before the article and accompanying image was posted on the left-wing Daily Kos blog.

That strongly suggests that Daily Kos obtained the image from Photobucket, not the State of Hawaii, the Obama family, or the Obama campaign. Photobucket is not known as a credible supplier of official vital records for any of the fifty states, and the liberties that other Photoshoppers took with the certificates confirms this.

Some of these oddities surfaced in Israel Insider's previous article on the subject, but new comparative documentary evidence presented below provides the strongest confirmation yet.

An authentic Hawaiian birth certificate for another Hawaiian individual has since surfaced which, using the same official form as the presumptive Obama certificate, includes an embossed official seal and an authoritative signature -- features that Obama's alleged certificate lack, as well as a certificate number referencing the birth year that was blacked out in the image claimed as genuine by Obama's campaign. According to Hawaiian authorities, authentic certificates are printed and sent by mail: there are no electronic-only copies.

Compare the top image presented by his campaign as evidence of Obama's 1961 birth and the other certifying the birth of one Patricia Decosta.



Click for higher resolution image.

Click for higher resolution image.




So if it's genuine, Barack Obama -- because only he or another member of his immediate family could by law request a "Certification of Live Birth" -- must have a paper copy, with stamp and seal.

The Obama campaign, however, continues to flaunt the suspect unstamped, unsealed, document -- notably in very low resolution -- on its "Fight the Smears" website, with campaign officials vowing that it's authentic, sending the image around as "proof" to reporters, and inviting supporters to refer to it as they battle against supposed distortions against their candidate. However, the campaign refuses to produce an authentic original birth certificate from the year of Obama's birth, or even a paper version with seal and signature of the "Certification of Live Birth" -- which is not an original but an official confirmation supposedly based on verified original data.

The failure of the Obama campaign to do so, and its willingness instead to put up what now appears to be a crude forgery, raises the dramatic question of what the presumptive Democratic presidential candidate might possibly have to hide.

Until now, it has been believed that there was some embarrassing information on the real certificate: was the candidate's name something other than Barack Hussein Obama II, as it is claimed? Was no father listed because of the uncertainty over Obama's paternity? Was his father's race listed as Arab, or Muslim, rather than African? These revelations might be embarrassing, and further undermine his credibility, but he could disavow and downplay their significance." Would revealing such embarrassment outweigh the far greater risks involved in perpetuating a forgery?

There is one possibility, however, which alone might justify the risk that Obama and his campaign seems to be taking in putting forward the apparent forgery: Obama was not born in Hawaii and may not be an American citizen at all, or at least a "natural born citizen" as the Constitution defines the requirement for the nation's chief executive. Real original birth certificates, circa 1961, have all kinds of verifiable information that would confirm Obama's origins, or throw them into doubt should they be lacking.

Research has since uncovered the law, in force at the time of Obama's birth, that were he to have been born in another country, his young American mother's youth extended time abroad would not suffice to make him a "natural born citizen." Even if he were naturalized later -- and there is no evidence that he was -- he would not be eligible to run for the office of president and -- if forgery or misrepresentation were involved -- he and his staffers might find themselves facing stiff federal and state charges.

But if, at this late date, Obama has no proof of being a US citizen by law, natural born or otherwise, then he or his advisers may be tempted to try to "tough out" the allegations about his "birth certificate" or the lack thereof. He and his campaign have gotten away with other fibs, and embarrassments: maybe this one will go away, too.

Because the consequences were he to admit, or should it come out, that he was not born in Hawaii would be so onerous as to make it tempting to take the gamble, say a Hail Mary or an Inshallah, and hope that no one dares call his most audacious bluff by demanding proof. Talk about the audacity of hope!

The longer Obama waits, the more serious grow the consequences of waiting.

There is one simple way for the candidate to clear up the issue once and for all: produce for public inspection and objective analysis the paper copy of his original Hawaiian birth certificate -- if one exists. Ordinary citizens are required to produce one to get a passport or a driver's license. Surely it's not too much to ask from a man who aspires to hold the highest office in the land.

The issue is not whether Obama is black or white, Christian or Muslim. It is whether he was born in the USA and thus a citizen eligible according to the Constitution to run for President.

If incontrovertible proof of citizenship does not exist, then surely it would be wiser to admit it now. Because if Barack Hussein Obama II does not produce definitive proof of his "natural born" American citizenship with original, verifiable documents, he will be setting the stage for a very public battle over his credibility, the basic legitimacy of his candidacy, and its possible criminality, a legal, political and personal battle which has every prospect of leading to violence of the ugliest kind.




Link
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/12939.htm






The fake certificate is still on the official Obama website.....


http://www.barackobama.com/images/fts/BO_birthcert.jpg




WHY?



Why would Obama have a forged document on his campaign website?


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Invisibledanknugz81
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Registered: 02/22/08
Posts: 882
Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8558655 - 06/24/08 02:41 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

israeli insider?

you gotta do better than that.

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: danknugz81]
    #8558670 - 06/24/08 02:46 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

What do you expect?u know our Media is in the Tank for Obama.



But check out the Document on his website for yourself. does it look like a Fake to you?





"Research has since uncovered the law, in force at the time of Obama's birth, that were he to have been born in another country, his young American mother's youth extended time abroad would not suffice to make him a "natural born citizen." Even if he were naturalized later -- and there is no evidence that he was -- he would not be eligible to run for the office of president and -- if forgery or misrepresentation were involved -- he and his staffers might find themselves facing stiff federal and state charges."



:eek:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Invisibledanknugz81
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Registered: 02/22/08
Posts: 882
Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8558709 - 06/24/08 02:55 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
What do you expect?u know our Media is in the Tank for Obama.



But check out the Document on his website for yourself. does it look like a Fake to you?





"Research has since uncovered the law, in force at the time of Obama's birth, that were he to have been born in another country, his young American mother's youth extended time abroad would not suffice to make him a "natural born citizen." Even if he were naturalized later -- and there is no evidence that he was -- he would not be eligible to run for the office of president and -- if forgery or misrepresentation were involved -- he and his staffers might find themselves facing stiff federal and state charges."



:eek:




if there was any legs to this story at all fox news would be ALL OVER this. if true, it would be a scandal of massive proportions and would really make the democrats look stupid for not doing their background checks better.

does the certificate look fake to me? no, it doesn't. i'm no photoshop expert, though. the article you posted is just speculation and presents no proof whatsoever that the birth certificate was faked.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: danknugz81]
    #8558777 - 06/24/08 03:23 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

the article cites the fact that there's no certification stamp, not all copies are certified

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8558801 - 06/24/08 03:31 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
the article cites the fact that there's no certification stamp, not all copies are certified




I guess then all Obama has to do is show a certified copy.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8558811 - 06/24/08 03:33 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

> not all copies are certified

Especially not faked copies.  Oh wait a minute... I suppose if the fake were any good, they would forge the certificate... never mind.  Around and around we go, where we stop, only those wearing tinfoil hats know.

(I haven't read the blogs on this and have no idea what they are claiming.  If it is nothing more than a missing seal, then people are really stretching...)


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8558815 - 06/24/08 03:34 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
the article cites the fact that there's no certification stamp, not all copies are certified




I guess then all Obama has to do is show a certified copy.




is he required to show it to the general public?

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8558825 - 06/24/08 03:37 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
the article cites the fact that there's no certification stamp, not all copies are certified




I guess then all Obama has to do is show a certified copy.




is he required to show it to the general public?





why not?


whats he hiding?


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledanknugz81
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8558842 - 06/24/08 03:40 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

this kind of shit is showing the desperation of the GOP and Israeli lobby.

if they really wanted to win the white house they should have picked a candidate that didn't suck so bad. Can McCain just for once, take a stand on an issue and actually back it? his campaign is pretty laughable at this point.

by the way, i'm not voting for obama.

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Invisibledanknugz81
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8558857 - 06/24/08 03:44 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
the article cites the fact that there's no certification stamp, not all copies are certified




I guess then all Obama has to do is show a certified copy.




is he required to show it to the general public?





why not?


whats he hiding?




are you serious? why did bush and cheney refuse to test under oath in front of the 9/11 commission? why were no notes or records of the testimony allowed and why did they go together as opposed to seperate as requested by the commission?

what were THEY hiding? 

why is dick cheney's energy policy still not a matter of public record?

lonestar, you gotta be shitting me.

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: danknugz81]
    #8558869 - 06/24/08 03:48 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

danknugz81 said:
this kind of shit is showing the desperation of the GOP and Israeli lobby.











oh please, McCain has at least three pending cases in court challenging his right to be sworn in as president!!! (fucking Looney Left)



And McCain was born to US parents on a US military base at a time when the Canal Zone was legally US territory!!!!!


All obama has to do is show a real Birth Certificate....


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Edited by lonestar2004 (06/24/08 03:54 PM)

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8558950 - 06/24/08 04:10 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
the article cites the fact that there's no certification stamp, not all copies are certified





certified or sealed.


I just looked at all my families birth certificates. (they are all sealed/certified.)


how do you get a non sealed or non certified birth certificate?


does anyone here have a non-certified birth certificate?


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledanknugz81
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Registered: 02/22/08
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8558957 - 06/24/08 04:14 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Quote:

danknugz81 said:
this kind of shit is showing the desperation of the GOP and Israeli lobby.











oh please, McCain has at least three pending cases in court challenging his right to be sworn in as president!!! (fucking Looney Left)



And McCain was born to US parents on a US military base at a time when the Canal Zone was legally US territory!!!!!


All obama has to do is show a real Birth Certificate....




looney lefts... yeah they are unfortunate. you guys never seem to talk abou the "radical right" though. the opinions you post on here lead me to believe you are part of that crowd.

for the record i wish he would show the birth certificate, just so that you and the other right wingers could shut the fuck up about it. move on to the next lie already.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8558965 - 06/24/08 04:16 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
how do you get a non sealed or non certified birth certificate?




in my state you order one from the office of vital statistics
it costs a little more for the certified copy


Quote:

does anyone here have a non-certified birth certificate?





my brother does, in fact he has 3 non-certified and one
imprinted with a seal, I picked up copies for my kids that
arent certified last year at the county health department in
order to verify information with the social security administration

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: danknugz81]
    #8559005 - 06/24/08 04:30 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

danknugz81 said:

for the record i wish he would show the birth certificate, just so that you and the other right wingers could shut the fuck up about it. move on to the next lie already.




for the record I'm the only "right winger" talking about it on the shroomery right now.

Along with some small Jewish newspaper....

if this topic bothers you stopping clicking it with your finger....(BTW I'm sure you wont be the first or last person to get angry over this fake document discussion)


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8559013 - 06/24/08 04:33 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
how do you get a non sealed or non certified birth certificate?






it costs a little more for the certified copy








i guess Obama didn't have the extra money for the certified..:grin:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8559093 - 06/24/08 04:52 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

The desperation is amazing. Are you guys THAT afraid that Obama is going to defeat McCain?

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Invisibledanknugz81
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8559109 - 06/24/08 04:55 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Quote:

danknugz81 said:

for the record i wish he would show the birth certificate, just so that you and the other right wingers could shut the fuck up about it. move on to the next lie already.




for the record I'm the only "right winger" talking about it on the shroomery right now.

Along with some small Jewish newspaper....

if this topic bothers you stopping clicking it with your finger....(BTW I'm sure you wont be the first or last person to get angry over this fake document discussion)




i'm not angry about this discussion at all. most of this is pretty amusing actually.

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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Redstorm]
    #8559110 - 06/24/08 04:56 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
The desperation is amazing. Are you guys THAT afraid that Obama is going to defeat McCain?




Well yea... Lonestar will prolly shit his pants if Obama wins.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Redstorm]
    #8559122 - 06/24/08 04:58 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
The desperation is amazing. Are you guys THAT afraid that Obama is going to defeat McCain?





Quote:

lonestar2004 said:

McCain has at least three pending cases in court challenging his right to be sworn in as president



And McCain was born to US parents on a US military base at a time when the Canal Zone was legally US territory!!!!!


All obama has to do is show a real Birth Certificate....






I cant believe you used to be a fucking Moderator....


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelonestar2004
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: danknugz81]
    #8559130 - 06/24/08 05:00 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

danknugz81 said:
Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Quote:

danknugz81 said:

for the record i wish he would show the birth certificate, just so that you and the other right wingers could shut the fuck up about it. move on to the next lie already.




for the record I'm the only "right winger" talking about it on the shroomery right now.

Along with some small Jewish newspaper....

if this topic bothers you stopping clicking it with your finger....(BTW I'm sure you wont be the first or last person to get angry over this fake document discussion)




i'm not angry about this discussion at all. most of this is pretty amusing actually.






Sorry i misunderstood the "shut the fuck up"  part....


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8559152 - 06/24/08 05:04 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
The desperation is amazing. Are you guys THAT afraid that Obama is going to defeat McCain?





Quote:

lonestar2004 said:

McCain has at least three pending cases in court challenging his right to be sworn in as president



And McCain was born to US parents on a US military base at a time when the Canal Zone was legally US territory!!!!!


All obama has to do is show a real Birth Certificate....






I cant believe you used to be a fucking Moderator....




Oh, shut your goddamn mouth about the moderator bit. Your foolishness has nothing to do with my ability to be a moderator.

It's amazing the childishness that plagues grown adults when politics becomes involved.

"Well, they started it!" As if that someone legitimizes your behavior. :smirk:

Nice one.

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: downforpot]
    #8559153 - 06/24/08 05:05 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:

Lonestar will prolly shit his pants if Obama wins.




it would be very UPSETTING!

Thank god it has no chance of happening!


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Redstorm]
    #8559167 - 06/24/08 05:08 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
The desperation is amazing. Are you guys THAT afraid that Obama is going to defeat McCain?





Quote:

lonestar2004 said:

McCain has at least three pending cases in court challenging his right to be sworn in as president



And McCain was born to US parents on a US military base at a time when the Canal Zone was legally US territory!!!!!


All obama has to do is show a real Birth Certificate....






I cant believe you used to be a fucking Moderator....




Oh, shut your goddamn mouth about the moderator bit. Your foolishness has nothing to do with my ability to be a moderator.

It's amazing the childishness that plagues grown adults when politics becomes involved.

"Well, they started it!" As if that someone legitimizes your behavior. :smirk:

Nice one.





lately u always seem one sided.....



"shut your goddamn mouth"


is that anger or is it just me?


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8559239 - 06/24/08 05:28 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

It is anger at your personal attack on my character.

Also, perhaps my one-sidedness has to do with the fact that Republicans have recently been hesitant to discuss policy. As soon as people start saying McCain can't be president because he was born out of the country, you will see me jumping on them too.

Both of these candidates are worthless and neither merit voting for. End of story.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Redstorm]
    #8559300 - 06/24/08 05:58 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Personally i consider a forged document being offered as proof of citizenship on Obama’s website a big deal....


"Photobucket is not known as a credible supplier of official vital records for any of the fifty states, and the liberties that other Photoshoppers took with the certificates confirms this."




i predict someone else will be thrown under the bus over this document...


--------------------
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America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8559312 - 06/24/08 06:02 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Personally i consider a forged document being offered as proof of citizenship on Obama’s website a big deal....


"Photobucket is not known as a credible supplier of official vital records for any of the fifty states, and the liberties that other Photoshoppers took with the certificates confirms this."




i predict someone else will be thrown under the bus over this document...




where is the proof that the photo is fake? link?

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: danknugz81]
    #8559373 - 06/24/08 06:25 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

danknugz81 said:


where is the proof that the photo is fake? link?




the jew link at the beginning of this thread.:rolleyes:

"It is now a virtual certainty that the "birth certificate" claimed by the Barack Obama campaign as authentic is a photoshopped fake."




http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/12939.htm

it looks suspect to me. why is the certificate number blacked out?


fraud fake....

All obama has to do is show his real BC if he has one and this will all be over in FIVE MINUTES....


meanwhile this will start to fester.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

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Invisibledanknugz81
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8559399 - 06/24/08 06:33 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Quote:

danknugz81 said:


where is the proof that the photo is fake? link?




the jew link at the beginning of this thread.:rolleyes:

"It is now a virtual certainty that the "birth certificate" claimed by the Barack Obama campaign as authentic is a photoshopped fake."



http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/12939.htm

it looks suspect to me. why is the certificate number blacked out?


fraud fake....

All obama has to do is show his real BC if he has one and this will all be over in FIVE MINUTES....


meanwhile this will start to fester.




i asked for actual proof, not the speculation posted in the "jew link."

a statement of "virtual certainty" with no concrete evidence to support it does not equal proof. try again.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8559417 - 06/24/08 06:38 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


Research has since uncovered the law, in force at the time of Obama's birth, that were he to have been born in another country, his young American mother's youth extended time abroad would not suffice to make him a "natural born citizen." Even if he were naturalized later -- and there is no evidence that he was -- he would not be eligible to run for the office of president and -- if forgery or misrepresentation were involved -- he and his staffers might find themselves facing stiff federal and state charges.





What kind of a jackass wrote that?

Read the fourteenth amendment


They're refering to other mechanisms by which can become a citizen.


This is interesting, but stupid.

I agree that all citizens should have the right to demand proof of qualifications of the candidates, however; and obama should have to provide such.  Someone should make this a law.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8559462 - 06/24/08 06:49 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Personally i consider a forged document being offered as proof of citizenship on Obama’s website a big deal....






where is the validation that it's a forgery

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8559502 - 06/24/08 06:56 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Personally i consider a forged document being offered as proof of citizenship on Obama’s website a big deal....






where is the validation that it's a forgery






"Photobucket is not known as a credible supplier of official vital records"


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We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8559506 - 06/24/08 06:57 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

round and round we go...


again Obama can end this in five minutes with a real BC.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

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America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Redstorm]
    #8559860 - 06/24/08 08:17 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
The desperation is amazing. Are you guys THAT afraid that Obama is going to defeat McCain?




There is no way McCain is going to win this election and he knows it.

Maybe he didnt anticipate some racist questioning he was born in this country. After all his mothers side of the family are U.S citizens.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8559892 - 06/24/08 08:22 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Personally i consider a forged document being offered as proof of citizenship on Obama’s website a big deal....




where is the validation that it's a forgery



"Photobucket is not known as a credible supplier of official vital records"





but surely a new source making the claim that the document is a
forgery would have the proof for all to see, some statement from
the state of hawaii or his 'foriegn' birth certificate or
something, i mean could you be citing a non-credible news source
like fox news?

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: KillerPicklez]
    #8559924 - 06/24/08 08:27 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

McCain sucks, but mark my words obama WILL be stopped.


--------------------
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We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8559963 - 06/24/08 08:34 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:


could you be citing a non-credible news source
like fox news?


:grin:


you wait i predict this story has legs. ODumbo will be throwing all kinds of folks under the bus.


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America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8559973 - 06/24/08 08:37 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
McCain sucks, but mark my words obama WILL be stopped.




:lol:

the only way i see this happening is if john mccain drops out of the race in august as some have predicted, and a better candidate is presented from the GOP, someone who republicans actually want to vote for.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8559980 - 06/24/08 08:38 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I'll bet you $50 on this too...

take my money, please.


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8560026 - 06/24/08 08:50 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I honestly dont believe the story at all.  But it is an interesting what if scenario...

What if its discovered he is not native born just before the election... or just after?  Or once he is in office?  hmmm....

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: DieCommie]
    #8560041 - 06/24/08 08:54 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
I honestly dont believe the story at all.  But it is an interesting what if scenario...

What if its discovered he is not native born just before the election... or just after?  Or once he is in office?  hmmm....





the V.P. pick would be huge.:grin:


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America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Redstorm]
    #8560262 - 06/24/08 09:55 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The desperation is amazing. Are you guys THAT afraid that Obama is going to defeat McCain?




What is your objection to Obama providing his birth certificate to the FEC? It is clear that what we've seen so far isn't the real deal. It is - at best - an electronic mockup of it.




Phred


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Phred]
    #8560273 - 06/24/08 09:59 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

There is no problem but its also outrageous to state jumping to conclusions because it hasnt already been provided. Maybe Obama isnt a shroomery member and hasnt heard of this outlandish speculation yet. Im sure if he is asked to provide a certified birth certificate it will be provided.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8560474 - 06/24/08 11:03 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

This is so fucking crazy.

What an absolutely Republican tactic.

And you morons wonder why everyone thinks you're a bunch of sleaze-balls.

Obama isn't a citizen now?  He forged his birth certificate?  Really?

Redstorm is certainly right.  It reeks of desperation.


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8561218 - 06/25/08 04:20 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

> What an absolutely Republican tactic.

I think you mean political tactic.  Pretending that the Republican party is the only one that does this kind of crap is delusional.  Politicians, for the most part, are slime- regardless of political party.  The Democrat party is just as bad as the Republican party at this kind of stuff.


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Seuss]
    #8561598 - 06/25/08 08:28 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> What an absolutely Republican tactic.

I think you mean political tactic.  Pretending that the Republican party is the only one that does this kind of crap is delusional.  Politicians, for the most part, are slime- regardless of political party.  The Democrat party is just as bad as the Republican party at this kind of stuff.




I agree that the Democrats are just as bad as the Republicans when it comes to sleazy underhanded tactics.

However it is very typical of the GOP to bring Obama's citizenship into question, and is not something I would see the DNC doing. Let's face it, the GOP gets a lot of votes by pandering to the xenophobic crowd.


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: gluke bastid]
    #8561614 - 06/25/08 08:34 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

that's a fair point.

obama's not a real citizen
kerry isn't a real soldier
gore isn't a real human

seems like a recurring theme.


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8561826 - 06/25/08 10:01 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:

And you morons wonder why everyone thinks you're a bunch of sleaze-balls.

Obama isn't a citizen now?  He forged his birth certificate?  Really?

Redstorm is certainly right.  It reeks of desperation.





Moron? thats it?

Congratulations to u and afoaf! i expected much more name calling from u two for even questioning the CHOSEN ONE....


Thank You! :happyheart:


At this time I'm not saying that Obama is not a Citizen of the U.S. All I want to know why he has a fake Document on his website!


Why is the man who wants to be The President of United States presenting a fake document on his website as proof of citizenship?

I expect most of you on the Shroomery not to question this Document. (its not surprising.)

IMO THAT FORGED DOCUMENT WOULD NEVER GET PAST THE DEPT. OF MOTOR VEHICLES OR EVEN A LITTLE LEAGUE BASEBALL COACH!


anyway i emailed Drudge last night about the fake Birth Certificate. (nothing yet:grin:)

:paranoid:


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We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: KillerPicklez]
    #8561828 - 06/25/08 10:02 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

KillerPicklez said:
Im sure if he is asked to provide a certified birth certificate it will be provided.





lets wait and see....


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We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: gluke bastid]
    #8561901 - 06/25/08 10:30 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
> What an absolutely Republican tactic.

I think you mean political tactic.  Pretending that the Republican party is the only one that does this kind of crap is delusional.  Politicians, for the most part, are slime- regardless of political party.  The Democrat party is just as bad as the Republican party at this kind of stuff.




I agree that the Democrats are just as bad as the Republicans when it comes to sleazy underhanded tactics.

However it is very typical of the GOP to bring Obama's citizenship into question, and is not something I would see the DNC doing. Let's face it, the GOP gets a lot of votes by pandering to the xenophobic crowd.





The DNC? Just look at what Obama does!

Obama had no problems disqualify ALL his opponents in the Illinois State Senate race in 1996 by challenging all of their petition signatures.



"In his first race for office, seeking a state Senate seat on Chicago's gritty South Side in 1996, Obama effectively used election rules to eliminate his Democratic competition."

As a community organizer, Obama helped register thousands of voters. But when it came time to run for office, he employed Chicago rules to invalidate the voting petition signatures of three of his challengers.

The move denied each of them, including incumbent Alice Palmer, a longtime Chicago activist, a place on the ballot. It cleared the way for Obama to run unopposed on the Democratic ticket in a heavily Democrat district.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/29/obamas.first.campaign/?iref=mpstoryview



Obama has no problem opening up sealed divorce records of Hull and Ryan when he ran for the US Senate office in Illinois


"When Obama was running for the state US Senate nomination, he was running against a guy named Blair Hull. Obama was way behind until his staffers put enough pressure on reporters to dig into Hull's sealed divorce records. They eventually got them opened and found a never-proven allegation of domestic violence by Hull against his then-wife, and that was it. Hull was history, Obama was the Democrats nominee....."



Next:


"When Obama was running for the US Senate, he was running against a Republican named Jack Ryan. Ryan was also divorced and once again the press went digging and unsealed Ryan's divorce and child-custody records. There was nothing as repulsive as violence, but there were some deliciously lurid allegations of a sexual nature that came to light -- and Ryan quit the race, leaving Obama virtually unchallenged in the race.




"Barack Obama's backers emailed reporters about the divorce controversy, but refrained from on-the-record commentary about the divorce" :rolleyes:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ryan_(Senate_candidate)

http://wizbangblog.com/content/2008/06/08/change-thats-more-than-skin-deep.php



Obama loves to dig into all kinds of shit but GOD FORBID we ask the man about a fake Document on his website...."Change you can believe in" :rofl2:


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We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8562026 - 06/25/08 11:06 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Have I missed something?  What constitutes proof that the doc on his site is a fake?


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: SoY]
    #8562091 - 06/25/08 11:21 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
Have I missed something?  What constitutes proof that the doc on his site is a fake?





Link
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/12939.htm


personally i would not have accepted it as a little league baseball coach.

i doubt even the DMV would accept this document.


or the post office.


no seal

no stamp

no signature




where did this thing come from?


--------------------
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America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: gluke bastid]
    #8562206 - 06/25/08 11:47 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

> However it is very typical of the GOP to bring Obama's citizenship into question

... and it is very typical of the left to bring McCains citizenship into question.  In case you missed it, there are several lawsuits against McCain running for president based upon his citizenship.

As you said, but fail to accept...

> I agree that the Democrats are just as bad as the Republicans when it comes to sleazy underhanded tactics.

You said it yourself, and you are correct.

http://howappealing.law.com/InlandEmpireVotersVsUSA.pdf

The complaint was filed by Andrew Aames, a Riverside lawyer volunteering for a Democratic Congressional Campaign (that is registered as a Republican. :rolleyes:).

But it doesn't stop there... oh no... there are more than one:

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080522/NEWS08/894678839/-1/news08 by Fred Hollander.

etc...

How many people are suing Barack Hussein Obama to prove that he is a US citizen?

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: DieCommie]
    #8562221 - 06/25/08 11:49 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

lonestar are you freakin' serious with this topic? isn't there some kid who went to high school with obama that stole a candy bar when he was twelve that you can try to link obama to? or possibly obama once spelled america with a k when he was 5 and therefore he know hates america? perhaps obama once failed a math test and is therefore unable to get our economy out of the tanker?

stop grasping at straws and stick to real issues please. conservative bloggers aren't issues btw.


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: SlashOZ]
    #8562270 - 06/25/08 12:00 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
lonestar are you freakin' serious with this topic?

stop grasping at straws and stick to real issues please. conservative bloggers aren't issues btw.




Yes.



BTW Phred would be the first to warn me if this was not an issue Worthy of debate.(Phred has deleted threads of mine in the past)


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Edited by lonestar2004 (06/25/08 03:36 PM)

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Seuss]
    #8562317 - 06/25/08 12:11 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> However it is very typical of the GOP to bring Obama's citizenship into question

... and it is very typical of the left to bring McCains citizenship into question.  In case you missed it, there are several lawsuits against McCain running for president based upon his citizenship.




I did miss that. I've been doing my best to ignore the presidential race in order to protect my own sanity. I know what each candidate claims to stand for, so the details of each one's respective smear campaign is not really of interest to me.

Quote:

As you said, but fail to accept...





I don't fail to accept that the DNC will do anything to cheat their way into power. It might as well be the first sentence in their charter.


--------------------
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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: gluke bastid]
    #8562332 - 06/25/08 12:15 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

> I've been doing my best to ignore the presidential race in order to protect my own sanity.

Something I should do as well... *sigh* 

> It might as well be the first sentence in their charter.

Nah, then people would accuse the DNC of copying the GOP.  :grin:


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Seuss]
    #8562425 - 06/25/08 12:44 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> I've been doing my best to ignore the presidential race in order to protect my own sanity.

Something I should do as well... *sigh*




But let's admit it. It's hard to look away from such sensationalism. It's a junior high school popularity contest on a national level. It's an ugly car crash, but you can't help but peek.

Quote:

> It might as well be the first sentence in their charter.

Nah, then people would accuse the DNC of copying the GOP.  :grin:




One of my favorite HSTisms: Only losers play fair, and all winners have blood on their hands.


--------------------
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: gluke bastid]
    #8562438 - 06/25/08 12:47 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:

One of my favorite HSTisms: Only losers play fair, and all winners have blood on their hands.




:laugh:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8563297 - 06/25/08 04:26 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Again, I fail to see why both candidates should not be required by law to provide their birth certificates to the FEC. There are not many restrictions on qualifications for presidential candidates, but two of them (natural-born US citizen and minimum age) can be decided by referring to the candidate's birth certificate. It should be standard procedure.

Clearly whatever is currently at Obama's website is not his real birth certificate. I don't even say it is necessary for him to post a scan of his real certificate on his website - he need only hand it to the FEC for scrutiny - but he should definitely take down the faked one.




Phred


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8563473 - 06/25/08 05:02 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Quote:

downforpot said:

Lonestar will prolly shit his pants if Obama wins.




it would be very UPSETTING!

Thank god it has no chance of happening!




Just like Democrats won't take the congress in 2006?


--------------------



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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: downforpot]
    #8563541 - 06/25/08 05:24 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:
Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Quote:

downforpot said:

Lonestar will prolly shit his pants if Obama wins.




it would be very UPSETTING!

Thank god it has no chance of happening!




Just like Democrats won't take the congress in 2006?











:mushroom2:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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InvisibleTHE KRAT BARON
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8563948 - 06/25/08 07:15 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I knew he was a terrorist, lynch the motherfucker. :smirk:


--------------------
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: downforpot]
    #8564206 - 06/25/08 08:11 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
The desperation is amazing. Are you guys THAT afraid that Obama is going to defeat McCain?




Well yea... Lonestar will prolly shit his pants if Obama wins.




maybe he'll move to canada :lol: :rimshot:


--------------------
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: x2and2makes5]
    #8564256 - 06/25/08 08:31 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I do :heart: their Prime minister....:)


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Phred]
    #8564269 - 06/25/08 08:35 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

"In all likelihood, Obama's genuine birth certificate will show pretty much what Kos' apparent forgery shows -- and thus ends the issue, to the extent there is an issue lurking here. But why is the Obama campaign relying upon a almost-certain photoshop forgery when requesting the genuine article is obviously a rather easy action for it to take?"

http://ace.mu.nu/



Does anyone have any idea why obama would do this?


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Invisiblethedefone
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8564464 - 06/25/08 09:34 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

This is truly insane. 

I am quite certain that the only copy of Barack Obama's birth certificate in existence is the one in question in this thread.  He has cleverly managed to skate through life as a passport holder, registered voter, and licensed driver, without ever needing a certified birth certificate.  Really though, the only proof anyone would ever need to discredit a man's citizenship is the, "Israeli Insider," and whatever lunacy they have on tap today.

Because, after all, who employs reason in their politics?

Quote:

The desperation is amazing. Are you guys THAT afraid that Obama is going to defeat McCain?



Yes.  Yes, they are.

Quote:

gore isn't a real human



This one is actually true.  You didn't know?


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: thedefone]
    #8564479 - 06/25/08 09:37 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Throw enough strands of spaghetti on the wall and its bound to stick, politics is all character assassination now, the rumour may not be true but as long as its spread its damage is adequate. Goebbels would be happy to see his tactics so readily employed by major media outlets, and the two party system.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #8564651 - 06/25/08 10:23 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

What is your objection to both candidates depositing their birth certificates with the FEC? Sure, it's a formality. But a lot of things in life require us to go through formalities. Hell, for all I know both candidates have already done so.

I'm just curious why the Obama website has seen fit to post a fake certificate in the first place. No certificate at all? That's understandable. Real certificate? Also understandable. But a photoshop job from Daily Kos? That's a poser.




Phred


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Phred]
    #8564740 - 06/25/08 10:48 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe the Obama campaign is trying to draw Fox and other anti-obama new sources into a trap so that they are ostracized for the debacle that ensues when Obama produces a real birth certificate.

its like a pitcher plant, they let flies walk all over them, some actual sweat a sucrose type sap that draws the flies in and as they walk down the tube the realize that they cant go back because barbs they previously walked over prevent them from getting out.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Phred]
    #8564837 - 06/25/08 11:13 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
What is your objection to both candidates depositing their birth certificates with the FEC? Sure, it's a formality. But a lot of things in life require us to go through formalities. Hell, for all I know both candidates have already done so.

I'm just curious why the Obama website has seen fit to post a fake certificate in the first place. No certificate at all? That's understandable. Real certificate? Also understandable. But a photoshop job from Daily Kos? That's a poser.




Phred




Because if he was running for president im sure someone checked his birth certificate, Its a fucking non-issue, you wanna debate the candidate thats great, but this is school yard gossip, it serves no point in debating the real issues and facts about the particular candidates platform.

And why should he show everyone his birth certificate? To further validate what a bunch of dumbasses said? Does Bush try to constantly convince troofers he had nothing to do with 9/11, No because acknowledgeing it only brings you to an idiots level.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #8564953 - 06/25/08 11:38 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Because if he was running for president im sure someone checked his birth certificate...




I would certainly hope so. I would certainly hope McCain's has been checked as well. But I don't know that they have. Let's face it, there have been far worse fuckups than the failure to check a candidate's birth certificates. This is government we're talking about after all... they screw up simple stuff all the time.

I still don't understand why the Obama website has seen fit to post a fake certificate in the first place. No certificate at all? That's understandable. Real certificate? Also understandable. But a photoshop job from Daily Kos? I can understand the Daily Kos posting it... those guys do all kinds of silly shit on a regular basis. But one would think Obama's staff would have at least checked with Obama that he had authorized the release of his birth certificate, and when they found out he hadn't, that they would yank the phony image off their website.

It's a poser, all right.




Phred


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Phred]
    #8565018 - 06/25/08 11:55 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Well, im not really a huge obama fan, so im just kind of playing devils advocate here, but if he shows his certificate then he could get this behind him and on to the next politically damaging thing.

I tell ya, id hate to be a politician its like having your therapist broadcasted on live television talking about how much of a piece of shit you are.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8565214 - 06/26/08 01:22 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Quote:

SoY said:
Have I missed something?  What constitutes proof that the doc on his site is a fake?





Link
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/12939.htm


personally i would not have accepted it as a little league baseball coach.

i doubt even the DMV would accept this document.


or the post office.


no seal

no stamp

no signature




where did this thing come from?





I still don't see how that shows anything.

Did I miss where they said that no birth certificate had been issued at whatever time obama got his that wasn't certified?

If there's some law or rule or something showing that certificates are always certified, then fine.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #8565477 - 06/26/08 04:14 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

> If there's some law or rule or something showing that certificates are always certified, then fine.

There is, for Hawaii.  I read it when looking up this garbage online the other day.  Some states have both certified and non-certified birth certificates.  Hawaii has a state law that says only certified birth certificates will be issued.  (I didn't look to see if the date on the law was before or after Obama's alleged birth.)


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Seuss]
    #8565482 - 06/26/08 04:22 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

hmm, ok


In any case, the certificate wasn't from when he was born, it has a revision date of 2001, which presumably is the date the present form was adopted.  Why isn't it dated though?  Is that part of the redacted portion?


In any case, unless he wasn't born in hawaii, he is clearly a natural born citizen, and the legal discussion in the thing lonestar cited is pretty poor, the 14th amendment is the begining and end of the discusion, unless someone shows he was born outside of america.


I'll also say that the whole discussion of the birth certificate as being required seems overblown.  While it is certainly customary, and would raise red flags if he didn't have one, big ones, it doesn't mean he's not eligible for the presidency.

But I do agree that what Obama has actually posted on his webiste is pretty weird.  Is their evidence this document is actually linked to by obama's site?  Or did someone just find it there?  In the end its irrelevant, but pretty interesting, as it appears whatever he posted has been altered beyond simply blocking out the cert. number.

I agree with phred:  both candidates should have to file proof of citizenship, ideally a certified certificate, as part of the process to appear on the ballots.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #8565512 - 06/26/08 05:05 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

> Is their evidence this document is actually linked to by obama's site?

I didn't verify, but from what I have read, the original image came from Obama's official campaign web site.

> I agree with phred:  both candidates should have to file proof of citizenship, ideally a certified certificate, as part of the process to appear on the ballots.

I agree with you both on this.  Should probably require voters to prove they are citizens as well (at the government's expense).


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Seuss]
    #8565633 - 06/26/08 06:53 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Link to Obama's Birth Certificate.

Next Republican Smear Tactic?

Who's got it?

Phred?  Lonestar?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8565786 - 06/26/08 08:08 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

panties in a twist over *fake* birth certificates...

no problems imprisoning potentially innocent people in perpetuity.

gotta love the GOP value system.


--------------------
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8565818 - 06/26/08 08:24 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Link to Obama's Birth Certificate.

Next Republican Smear Tactic?

Who's got it?

Phred?  Lonestar?





That's the same image that's in the site the OP is referencing.

I despise McCain and I couldn't give two fucks about Obama but I find this whole situation pretty ridiculous for both sides. It's even more ridiculous since Obama's campaign can easily end this rumor, if it is just a rumor, in an instant.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: afoaf]
    #8565820 - 06/26/08 08:24 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

hmm, well that one seems to have seal-like indentations.  Perhaps florida doesn't require certified copies to be signed?


I guess that's the other issue, what is a certified copy?  Does it have to have a signerature?  It appears there is a time stamp on the "back" of the document as well.  Why?  Perhaps there is no sig requirement and its simply time stamped and dated on the back?


Zooming in on the cert. on obama's website it's hard to tell if there's a raised seal or not.  Hard to tell, certainly possible.  On the Kos version one is readily apparent.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Innominate]
    #8565891 - 06/26/08 08:54 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Innominate said:
Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Link to Obama's Birth Certificate.

Next Republican Smear Tactic?

Who's got it?

Phred?  Lonestar?





That's the same image that's in the site the OP is referencing.

Obama's campaign can easily end this rumor, if it is just a rumor, in an instant.





and the same fake Document STILL on Obama's official website...

http://www.barackobama.com/images/fts/BO_birthcert.jpg


--------------------
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We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8565893 - 06/26/08 08:55 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

YawningAnus said:
Maybe the Obama campaign is trying to draw Fox and other anti-obama new sources into a trap so that they are ostracized for the debacle that ensues when Obama produces a real birth certificate.







Yep, maybe he's waiting for FOX news to run with it.


--------------------
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We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8565933 - 06/26/08 09:15 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Quote:

Innominate said:
Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Link to Obama's Birth Certificate.

Next Republican Smear Tactic?

Who's got it?

Phred?  Lonestar?





That's the same image that's in the site the OP is referencing.

Obama's campaign can easily end this rumor, if it is just a rumor, in an instant.





and the same fake Document STILL on Obama's official website...

http://www.barackobama.com/images/fts/BO_birthcert.jpg





1.  How do you know it is fake?

Even presuming Seuss is correct and all certificates must be certified, what does this mean in hawaii?  Must there be signeratures for certificates in hawaii?  I don't believe mine has a sig, but I"d have to check.

There is clearly a date stamp on the back, or at least appears that way, so perhaps the seal was likewise applied to the back for some reason.

The image madtown posted could be from the same original picture, could it not?  It could certainly be of the same document.  In madtown's picture there does appear to be clear raised-seal marks. In obama's version there appears to be nothin either way from my glances- too low res, could be sealed, could have none.  Do you disagree?

2.  How do you know the image is not from the same picture?

There seems to be nothing obvious to me which would suggest madtown's picture could be excluded from being derived from the original picture taken of the document that gave rise to Obama's version.  Did I miss something?  Why do you conclude the image is not "the same" and derived from the same parent, only scaled down?


In the end it would be pretty crazy if Obama wasn't really born in hawaii, so the whole thing is kinda pointless, though I agree he should have to prove, before being on the primary ballots, his eligibility.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #8565962 - 06/26/08 09:30 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:

I do agree that what Obama has actually posted on his webiste is pretty weird.  Is their evidence this document is actually linked to by obama's site?  Or did someone just find it there?  In the end its irrelevant, but pretty interesting, as it appears whatever he posted has been altered beyond simply blocking out the cert. number.

I agree with phred:  both candidates should have to file proof of citizenship, ideally a certified certificate, as part of the process to appear on the ballots.






yep, very interesting.


its on an Official  Obama website.
http://www.barackobama.com/images/fts/BO_birthcert.jpg


And Obama's campaign claims suspect/fake "birth certificate" as genuine item.

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/12932.htm




"If Obama does not produce definitive proof of his “natural born” American citizenship with original, verifiable documents, he will be setting the stage for a very public battle over his personal credibility, the basic legitimacy of his candidacy, and its possible criminality."




If Obama is not playing a GAME then this could get real interesting.


BTW Hillary supporters are all over this. No Quarters has the best info.

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/06/20/obama%E2%80%99s-birth-certificate-the-problems/


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #8565980 - 06/26/08 09:36 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I do not see a signature or a seal.


Again all Obama has to do is release the real documentation of his birth, or even the original printed version of the online document the campaign claims as genuine.....


its very easy.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8566039 - 06/26/08 10:06 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

How do you know it is fake?




You don't. 

When it is proven fake by reputable sources with convincing evidence, feel free to gripe and whine all you want.  As of now you cannot honestly say that you know this document is fake, just as I cannot honestly say I know that it is real.

This is entertaining.  Lonestar the conspiracy theorist....  :popcorn:

Quote:

both candidates should have to file proof of citizenship, ideally a certified certificate, as part of the process to appear on the ballots.




--------------------

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: SoY]
    #8566194 - 06/26/08 10:57 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SoY said:


This is entertaining.  Lonestar the conspiracy theorist....  :popcorn:







And who Doesn’t Love a Conspiracy?:grin::grin::grin:









Is Obama's candidacy constitutional?

Secrecy over birth certificate, demand for 'natural-born' citizenship cited

Bloggers are raising questions about Illinois Sen. Barack Obama's qualifications to be U.S. president, because of the secrecy over his birth certificate and the requirement presidents be "natural-born" U.S. citizens.

Jim Geraghty, reporting on the Campaign Spot, a National Review blog, cited the "unlikely" but still circulating rumor that Obama was born not within the United States, but elsewhere, possibly Kenya.

Geraghty defined the concerns most clearly, stating: "If Obama were born outside the United States, one could argue that he would not meet the legal definition of natural-born citizen … because U.S. law at the time of his birth required his natural-born parent (his mother) to have resided in the United States for '10 years, at least [f]ive of which had to be after the age of 16.'"

He then points out Ann Dunham, Obama's mother, was 18 when Obama was born "so she wouldn't have met the requirement of five years after the age of 16."

Geraghty continues: " (Interestingly, apparently there isn't much paperwork on Obama's parents' marriage. 'Obama: From Promise to Power,' page. 27: 'Obama later confessed that he never searched for the government documents on the marriage, although Madelyn (Obama's maternal grandmother) insisted they were legally married.' Also note that Obama's father apparently was not legally divorced from his first wife back in Kenya at the time, a point of contention that ultimately led to their separation.


The reports released to date show Obama was born in Honolulu to Barack Hussein Obama Sr., of Nyangoma-Kogelo, Kenya, and Ann Dunham, of Wichita, Kan.

According to FindLaw.com, which is cited by Geraghty, the requirements that were in force from Dec. 24, 1952 to Nov. 13, 1986, encompassing the time of Obama's birth, state, "If only one parent was a U.S. citizen at the time of your birth, that parent must have resided in the United States for at least 10 years, at least five of which had to be after the age of 16."

Obama's father, a student sent to the United States from Africa, lived several places in the United States while attending class. He then returned to his homeland. Obama's mother later married another man and moved to Indonesia.

Geraghty said the Obama campaign could "debunk" the rumors about his birth simply by releasing a copy of his birth certificate, but the campaign has so far chosen not to do that.

"The campaign cited the birth certificate in their 'Fact Check' on William Ayers, so presumably, someone in the campaign has access to it," he said.

Hawaii doesn't make public information from birth certificates.

"If the concern of the Obama campaign is that the certificate includes his Social Security number or some other data that could be useful to identity thieves, that information could easily be blocked out and the rest released. (Although I wonder if identity thieves would find Obama a tougher than usual target, since using the name on purchases would almost inevitably bring closer scrutiny.)," Geraghty said.

The Obama campaign repeatedly has declined to respond to WND requests for comment.

The presumptive Republican nominee for president, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., already has gone through the same type of challenge, and the U.S. Senate responded with a resolution in April declaring him to be a "'natural born Citizen' under Article II, Section 1, of the Constitution of the United States."

That article declares that "no person except a natural born citizen … shall be eligible to the Office of president."

McCain was challenged because he was born to two U.S. citizens in the Panama Canal Zone.

According to a report from Michael Dobbs on The Fact Checker, the McCain campaign consulted two leading jurists, Theodore Olsen and Laurence Tribe, and they agreed.

"They argue that McCain is a natural born citizen because the United States exercised sovereignty over the Panama Canal at the time of his birth on August 29, 1936, he was born on a U.S. military base, and both of his parents were U.S. citizens," the report said.

Others say the issue isn't quite that simple, and the matter could be resolved fully only by a constitutional amendment or a U.S. Supreme Court ruling.


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=66787



HIllary is now praying Obama was born in Kenya.


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America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #8566388 - 06/26/08 12:01 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

> Even presuming Seuss is correct and all certificates must be certified

Grr... I spent the last 30 minutes trying to figure out what site I was on when I read the law.  At the time, I was searching for something else, and now I don't remember how I got there.  Unless I can find the link, take my claim with a bit of uncertainty.


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Seuss]
    #8566415 - 06/26/08 12:10 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

yeah, I wasn't implying you weren't correct, just saying arguendo what the effect was....  Wasn't trying to say you made that up or anything- I haven't tried to look it up myself and really have no idea.  I'm not aware you can get a noncertified copy in ohio, and don't believe you can in the normal course, but don't know if that's actual law or just bullshit the clerks pull to get tons of dough for ten seconds of stamping the paper.


Since this certificate appears to be a 2007 copy though, there is really no need to look at the law in years prior.


The other thing lonestar didn't discuss, is: is it required that certified copies be signed?  I don't know...


Either way, I think it is possible the low-resolution copy on obama's site could be from the same photo madtown posted, and since a seal appears visible in madtown's photo, perhaps one was simply not visible in the obama version?


I think its all worthless though.  Even if the thing is a forgery, its just a political loss unless he can't prove he wasn't born in hawaii.

I've read the speculation, and I think its quite clear that his parents status and whatnot is all irelevant: if he was born in hawaii when he claims he is eligible.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #8566628 - 06/26/08 12:51 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

> yeah, I wasn't implying you weren't correc

Oh, I know... but you got me wondering if I hadn't misread something (as for whatever I was searching was bringing up a lot of stuff from MN)... I just don't like it when I can't back up my claims; often a sign of crossed memories or general sloppiness on my part.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8567821 - 06/26/08 05:14 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Quote:

downforpot said:
Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Quote:

downforpot said:

Lonestar will prolly shit his pants if Obama wins.




it would be very UPSETTING!

Thank god it has no chance of happening!




Just like Democrats won't take the congress in 2006?











:mushroom2:




My statement still stands.


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: downforpot]
    #8567854 - 06/26/08 05:21 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

as expected. (There is no forgiveness around here)

:grin:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8568263 - 06/26/08 06:58 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
as expected. (There is no forgiveness around here)

:grin:




And my statement still stands.


--------------------



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"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

Edited by downforpot (06/26/08 06:58 PM)

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InvisibleMrSinister
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8568709 - 06/26/08 08:41 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Oh well i am not voting for him anyways so whats it matter.. Personally i hope he is found out to be a lier, and Hilary gets the nod.


--------------------

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: MrSinister]
    #8573661 - 06/28/08 08:07 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Apparantly, Obama's birth certificate looks exactly like a scanned copy of it should:

Quote:


The Hawaii Department of Health receives about a dozen e-mail inquiries a day about Obama’s birth certificate, spokesman Okubo said.

“I guess the big issue that’s being raised is the lack of an embossed seal and a signature,” Okubo said, pointing out that in Hawaii, both those things are on the back of the document. “Because they scanned the front … you wouldn’t see those things.”

Okubo says she got a copy of her own birth certificate last year and it is identical to the Obama one we received.

And about the copy we e-mailed her for verification? “When we looked at that image you guys sent us, our registrar, he thought he could see pieces of the embossed image through it.”…





http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/

Maybe you guys will give it a rest now.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: dtugg]
    #8573986 - 06/28/08 10:52 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

More proof that Conservatives are just stupid as shit.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8575728 - 06/28/08 09:48 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
More proof that Conservatives are just stupid as shit.




I have no doubt that McCain-haters would be saying exactly the same thing if the roles were reversed.

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Invisiblethedefone
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: dtugg]
    #8575783 - 06/28/08 10:10 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

This is the real problem with politics today.  Instead of debating the issues and discussing the candidates based on the merits of their stances, pols dig through the mud looking for non-issue, and irrelevant points on which to attack.  All it does is perpetuate the growing disinterest of the voter, utterly distract from relevant discussion, and serve to further divide differing positions for no valid reason.

In my eyes, if there is a real threat to America it's the frivolous attacks like the one this thread is founded on, and the perpetual antagonism to, and disassociation of the voter created by such actions. 



:shrug:


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: thedefone]
    #8575795 - 06/28/08 10:16 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Exactly, I wish we had no political parties and just political issues to discuss, it would take alot of the bullshit out of it, not all but alot.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: thedefone]
    #8575798 - 06/28/08 10:16 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

thedefone said:
This is the real problem with politics today.  Instead of debating the issues and discussing the candidates based on the merits of their stances, pols dig through the mud looking for non-issue, and irrelevant points on which to attack.  All it does is perpetuate the growing disinterest of the voter, utterly distract from relevant discussion, and serve to further divide differing positions for no valid reason.

In my eyes, if there is a real threat to America it's the frivolous attacks like the one this thread is founded on, and the perpetual antagonism to, and disassociation of the voter created by such actions. 



:shrug:





couldn't have said it better:thumbup:


--------------------
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no one else can make you change
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Phred]
    #8575800 - 06/28/08 10:17 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

The desperation is amazing. Are you guys THAT afraid that Obama is going to defeat McCain?




What is your objection to Obama providing his birth certificate to the FEC? It is clear that what we've seen so far isn't the real deal. It is - at best - an electronic mockup of it.




Phred




That's a very, very interesting interpretation of my post. There is absolutely nothing in it which would leave any reasonable person to believe I don't believe Obama should follow all campaign laws.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: thedefone]
    #8575918 - 06/28/08 11:12 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

thedefone said:
This is the real problem with politics today.  Instead of debating the issues and discussing the candidates based on the merits of their stances, pols dig through the mud looking for non-issue, and irrelevant points on which to attack.  All it does is perpetuate the growing disinterest of the voter, utterly distract from relevant discussion, and serve to further divide differing positions for no valid reason.

In my eyes, if there is a real threat to America it's the frivolous attacks like the one this thread is founded on, and the perpetual antagonism to, and disassociation of the voter created by such actions. 



:shrug:






what is the attack?

People noted the birth certificate didn't appear genuine.  Others noted that the resolution was too low to tell and that the authenticity of the certificate was itself irrelevant, only precluding it from being considered as presumptive evidence of citezenship.


I don't really know what your talking about.  Only the fools, and I don't think there are too many of them, didn't realize that if he was born in hawaii he's a citezen.


As most have made up their minds on the election, I would hope, and this had nothing to do with "issues" I don't know what your point is.


This was about the authenticity of the birth certificate.  I thought it was interesting.  I also thought it was irrelevant, as any sane person who read the thread would conclude- except to political fallout fom a forged document.


So I don't get what your talking about.

Your pissed that a thread that wasn't about issues wasn't about issues?  k....

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8579899 - 06/30/08 08:10 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
More proof that Conservatives are just stupid as shit.





and u Liberals are sooooo smart. Y'all nominated Barack Obama! :rofl2:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #8579907 - 06/30/08 08:18 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

God fucking forbid we ask a man running for President to produce a valid, actual birth certificate proving they meet the constitutional requirements of being a natural born citizen.......


The audacity of conservatives....


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8579937 - 06/30/08 08:41 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
God fucking forbid we ask a man running for President to produce a valid, actual birth certificate proving they meet the constitutional requirements of being a natural born citizen.......


The audacity of conservatives....



Right, because all the initial website did was innocently ask for proper documentation. No accusations were hurled or wild conjectures were raised. Just pure, innocent questioning.

Right.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Ancalagon]
    #8579958 - 06/30/08 08:50 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

All Obama has to do is release it.


Period.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8580254 - 06/30/08 11:06 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

He did. It was on his website.  :flowstone:


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Ancalagon]
    #8580327 - 06/30/08 01:35 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

> Just pure, innocent questioning.

So do we know where he was born yet?  (Sorry, I haven't been following this.  I feel that I am picking at a scab, but my question is meant to be innocent, not sarcastic.)


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Seuss]
    #8580383 - 06/30/08 01:55 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Obama is still playing a game.

Obama has yet to provide a real paper copy of his birth certificate. (it will take him all of five minutes)and he still has the same Document on his website with NO seal and No signature.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8580407 - 06/30/08 02:00 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Obama is still playing a game.

Obama has yet to provide a real paper copy of his birth certificate. (it will take him all of five minutes)and he still has the same Document on his website with NO seal and No signature.




I thought it was allready established that the document on his site is consistant with being a sealed and signed document?

Agreed its not evident it is any of these things, but whatever...


As to Seuss' question, yes, it appears no one is openly questioning his birth in Hawaii at the moment, just the authenticity of the birth certificate. 

Who knows, maybe folks still think there's some way he could have been born in hawaii after statehood and not be a citizen.  If there is a way, and there's certainly not, no one's shown how.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #8580466 - 06/30/08 02:20 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

The Document on his website has no stamp, no seal, and no signature.


WHERE IS THE ORIGINAL BIRTH CERTIFICATE?



I Hope Obama drags this out until October! :thumbup:


--------------------
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We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8580584 - 06/30/08 03:04 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

> As to Seuss' question, yes, it appears no one is openly questioning his birth in Hawaii at the moment, just the authenticity of the birth certificate. 

Thanks... if anything changes, lemme know; meanwhile, I am going back into peaceful ignorance.


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8580599 - 06/30/08 03:09 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
I Hope Obama drags this out until October! :thumbup:




And by that you mean that you hope that you will drag this thread out until October? Because so far no one else cares about this bullshit, Obama included.


--------------------
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: gluke bastid]
    #8580639 - 06/30/08 03:19 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
I Hope Obama drags this out until October! :thumbup:




And by that you mean that you hope that you will drag this thread out until October? Because so far no one else cares about this bullshit, Obama included.





Jesus....

You and Madtown, etc. don’t have to participate.


I repeat,


You and Madtown, etc. do not have to participate.



Personally i have no problem if Obama wants to play the birth certificate game.


Eventually obama will have to release a copy of his original birth certificate.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8581095 - 06/30/08 05:42 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Looks real to me.

Anyways, the burden of proof is on the people making the claim that it isn't real and so far they haven't done that.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8581160 - 06/30/08 05:58 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Document on his website has no stamp, no seal, and no signature.

WHERE IS THE ORIGINAL BIRTH CERTIFICATE?

I Hope Obama drags this out until October!



Do you read anything outside of your world of conspiratorial blogs?  It has been repeated for over a week that the seal and the signature are on the rear of the certificate.  But honestly, I don't believe him either.  The only conclusion any rational person could draw is quite obvious...  He's a space alien. 

Personally I hope that Obama drags this on for as long as possible, then releases his BC in a month or two.  There's nothing quite like watching the Republican party cannibalize itself.

Quote:

the burden of proof is on the people making the claim that it isn't real and so far they haven't done that.



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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: thedefone]
    #8581178 - 06/30/08 06:05 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

> The only conclusion any rational person could draw is quite obvious...  He's a space alien. 

Woah?!  Obama is L. Ron Hubbard, reincarnated?  Hold the presses!  j/k


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: thedefone]
    #8581207 - 06/30/08 06:11 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

then flip it over! is it that hard to do Mr. Obama? it would take 5 fucking minutes. Well I just checked his site, and still no embossed seal.....


what is Obama Hiding?


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8581271 - 06/30/08 06:24 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

grasping at straws...

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8581315 - 06/30/08 06:34 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Burden on proof is on you, sweetheart.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8581447 - 06/30/08 07:00 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

omfg


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8581483 - 06/30/08 07:14 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
what is Obama Hiding?





dead hookers in the closet

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8581558 - 06/30/08 07:33 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Dead alien hookers, no less!    ...and Tom Cruise.


--------------------


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: thedefone]
    #8582322 - 06/30/08 11:05 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

We all know tom cruise is in the closet...

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8810723 - 08/22/08 11:43 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:

What an absolutely Republican tactic.

And you morons wonder why everyone thinks you're a bunch of sleaze-balls.

Redstorm is certainly right.  It reeks of desperation.






Obama Sued in Philadelphia Federal Court on Grounds he is Constitutionally Ineligible...


Clinton supporter sues Obama on grounds he is constitutional ineligble for Presidency



A prominent Philadelphia attorney and Hillary Clinton supporter filed suit this afternoon in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania against Illinois Sen. Barack Obama and the Democratic National Committee. The action seeks an injunction preventing the senator from continuing his candidacy and a court order enjoining the DNC from nominating him next week, all on grounds that Sen. Obama is constitutionally ineligible to run for and hold the office of President of the United States.


Phillip Berg, the filing attorney, is a former gubernatorial and senatorial candidate, former chair of the Democratic Party in Montgomery (PA) County, former member of the Democratic State Committee, and former Deputy Attorney General of Pennsylvania. According to Berg, he filed the suit--just days before the DNC is to hold its nominating convention in Denver--for the health of the Democratic Party.


Berg cited a number of unanswered questions regarding the Illinois senator's background, and in today's lawsuit maintained that Sen. Obama is not a natural born U.S. citizen or that, if he ever was, he lost his citizenship when he was adopted in Indonesia. Berg also cites what he calls "dual loyalties" due to his citizenship and ties with Kenya and Indonesia.

Even if Sen. Obama can prove his U.S. citizenship, Berg stated, citing the senator's use of a birth certificate from the state of Hawaii verified as a forgery by three independent document forensic experts, the issue of "multi-citizenship with responsibilities owed to and allegiance to other countries" remains on the table.

In the lawsuit, Berg states that Sen. Obama was born in Kenya, and not in Hawaii as the senator maintains. Before giving birth, according to the lawsuit, Obama's mother traveled to Kenya with his father but was prevented from flying back to Hawaii because of the late stage of her pregnancy, "apparently a normal restriction to avoid births during a flight." As Sen. Obama's own paternal grandmother, half-brother and half-sister have also claimed, Berg maintains that Stanley Ann Dunham--Obama's mother--gave birth to little Barack in Kenya and subsequently flew to Hawaii to register the birth.

Berg cites inconsistent accounts of Sen. Obama's birth, including reports that he was born at two separate hospitals--Kapiolani Hospital and Queens Hospital--in Honolulu, as well a profound lack of birthing records for Stanley Ann Dunham, though simple "registry of birth" records for Barack Obama are available in a Hawaiian public records office.

Should Sen. Obama truly have been born in Kenya, Berg writes, the laws on the books at the time of his birth hold that U.S. citizenship may only pass to a child born overseas to a U.S. citizen parent and non-citizen parent if the former was at least 19 years of age. Sen. Obama's mother was only 18 at the time. Therefore, because U.S. citizenship could not legally be passed on to him, Obama could not be registered as a "natural born" citizen and would therefore be ineligible to seek the presidency pursuant to Article II, Section 1 of the United States Constitution.

Moreover, even if Sen. Obama could have somehow been deemed "natural born," that citizenship was lost in or around 1967 when he and his mother took up residency in Indonesia, where Stanley Ann Dunham married Lolo Soetoro, an Indonesian citizen. Berg also states that he possesses copies of Sen. Obama's registration to Fransiskus Assisi School In Jakarta, Indonesia which clearly show that he was registered under the name "Barry Soetoro" and his citizenship listed as Indonesian.

The Hawaiian birth certificate, Berg says, is a forgery. In the suit, the attorney states that the birth certificate on record is a forgery, has been identified as such by three independent document forensic experts, and actually belonged to Maya Kasandra Soetoro, Sen. Obama's half-sister.

"Voters donated money, goods and services to elect a nominee and were defrauded by Sen. Obama's lies and obfuscations," Berg stated. "If the DNC officers ... had performed one ounce of due diligence we would not find ourselves in this emergency predicament, one week away from making a person the nominee who has lost their citizenship as a child and failed to even perform the basic steps of regaining citizenship as prescribed by constitutional laws."

"It is unfair to the country," he continued, "for candidates of either party to become the nominee when there is any question of the ability to serve if elected."


http://www.philly.com/dailynews/local/20080822_Clout__Law_tells_conventioneers_to_get_the_fork_out.html



PHILIP J. BERG v. BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA - Complaint

https://ecf.paed.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/ShowIndex.pl



Defendant: BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA, a/k/a BARRY SOETORO, a/k/a BARRY OBAMA , a/k/a BARACK DUNHAM, a/k/a BARRY DUNHAM,



http://www.hillaryproject.com/index.php?/en/story-details/clinton_supporter_sues_obama_on_grounds_he_is_constitutional_ineligble_for_/











This guy is a Democrat and Hillary Supporter :rofl2::rofl2:

:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:




Democrats!:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Edited by lonestar2004 (08/22/08 02:07 PM)

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8811007 - 08/22/08 12:40 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I don't understand the issue here.

They say even if he was a natural born citezin he lost his citezinship.


So what?

It seems to me the constitution only requires the president to be 35, a resident of some years of the US, and a natural born citezin.


So what does it matter if he lost his citezinship?



And how again do they claim he lost his citezinship?  Just cuz he lived in indonesia?  So what?  I don't get this at all, and either the lawsuit is REALLY stupid, the law has been interpreted very strangely, or the article in the above is poor.


Anyone want to fill me in?

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #8811119 - 08/22/08 01:02 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Yea it sounds weak and probably has no legs, but  throughout this thread a number of posters bitched and whined about ignorant Republicans bringing this shit up and IRONICALLY ITS A FUCKING DEMOCRAT THATS SUING OBAMA OVER THIS ISSUE!


And all that this DEMOCRAT requests is that Barack Obama PROVE that he is eligible to be president of the United States....


Is that so unreasonable?????


Obama could have made this go away months ago!


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8811167 - 08/22/08 01:13 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Yea it sounds weak and probably has no legs, but  throughout this thread a number of posters bitched and whined about ignorant Republicans bringing this shit up and IRONICALLY ITS A FUCKING DEMOCRAT THATS SUING OBAMA OVER THIS ISSUE!


And all that this DEMOCRAT requests is that Barack Obama PROVE that he is eligible to be president of the United States....


Is that so unreasonable?????


Obama could have made this go away months ago!





I agree that he should release his birth certificate, if he has not done so, to public inspection, but whatever... I think a law should be passed making federal candidates birth certificates open to public inspection, contrary state laws notwithstanding, and making those without birth certificates file whatever proof they have for public inspection.

No reason not to.


That said, I would be totally shocked if it turned out barack is not eligible.  He was born in Hawaii, forged certificate or not, and that's good enough.  I'm sure he can get plausible witnesses to this effect to sign affidavits, and so what could anyone do to contravert that?  Nothing I'd imagine.

I don't think that a democrat is suing demonstrates anything other than the fact that some people are against the obama nomination, and they aren't all republicans.


I certainly don't think its wrong of republicans or anyone to ask for proof, but I think it is stupid the way this has led to speculation and erroneous legal presumptions in the public forums.

That a democrat sued him has nothing to do with the merits of the republicans that are taking similar positions.  They are all against obama's nomination, and are one in the same.


And you won't find me defending a party, except for perhaps the libertarian party and only as a vague notion of the relativly clear ideals a vote for their candidates endorses.


Screw the dems and repubs....  Arguing about the immorality of one side compared to the other is inevitably self-defeating as they are all the same in tactics and almost the same in political ideology (big government, high taxes, federal preemption, federal invasion of your life. ...)


Vote third party.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #8811264 - 08/22/08 01:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

The hearing has been scheduled on the matter for 2:00pm today.


The judge assigned to the case--the Hon. R. Barclay Surrick--was appointed to the federal bench by President William Jefferson Clinton.

"As of two hours ago, Barack Obama's "Fight the Smears" Web site removed his birth certificate from its pages, only to put it back up a little while later. Again, regardless of the outcome of this legal action, Obama's failure to address this issue should draw a fair amount of skepticism but has not. Perhaps we can thank the mainstream media's overprotective nature for that."


UPDATE:


The temporary restraining order was denied by the Hon. R. Barclay Surrick.

but the exhibits have been taken into evidence and Judge Surrick has decided to leave the case open, allowing subject to once again be brought forth once all parties are served.


All related pleadings and documents can be found at

http://www.obamacrimes.com/



Edited by lonestar2004 (08/22/08 03:42 PM)

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8829053 - 08/26/08 03:10 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

please allow me to preface that i am neither a republican nor democratic. and i only support third parties on the basis of someday having the realistic ability to chose from the lesser of 3 evil as opposed to two. and i am asking these questions regardless Obama's politics.

Is it really so bad to ask for a presidential candidate to be able to sufficiently prove that he is in fact a US citizen?
maybe he was born in Hawaii? is that alone ALWAYS grounds enough for eligibility?

maybe i just don't know enough about obama's life history but the way i see it its seems completely reasonable to at the very least have him be able to sufficiently verify his naturalized citizenship. that seems like a logical starting point.

anyone care to vote for John Walker Lindh? sure hes a legal US citizens but are his interests in favor of American values? I'm exaggerating for effect for those morons who wouldn't get it unless i write this and probably will still bitch about my comparisons. but I'm simply saying that under some circumstances a naturalized citizen forfeits his eligibility for the presidency... whether Obama falls into this category for whatever reason is up for debate and should be debated, investigated, and considered. maybe a vote for Gov. Arnold suits you better?

if you don't take a candidates life history in to account you a fucking fool. We all no they pump out lies, and tell people what they want to hear. he doesn't have a very long political career by comparison so we are force to pursue other avenues to put together a decent picture of what his values, ideas and ideals may be.

believe me i HOPE he's legit... but I'm not willing to just "take his word for it".

whether ill vote for him is not my concern, my concern is that if it is not verified, and proven a forgery, just before the election or worse after being elected(I'm not assuming hes gonna win just a "if" case) it would probably mark the beginning of the democratic party's dissolution.

then again it may or may not a three party system that much more likely to arise.

if you going to ignore the regulations set forth for the presidential eligibility, you may as well throw out everything else our fore fathers wrote and get ready to work on a federally controlled commune.

only in America could a ineligible candidate potentially be elected President, despite there specifically being rules against it, even be a remote possibility.

PLEASE! OBAMA! PLEASE VERIFY YOUR SHIT!
so i can go back to having my distaste for you being purely made of political views.


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8829218 - 08/26/08 04:48 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

> maybe he was born in Hawaii? is that alone ALWAYS grounds enough for eligibility?

Yep, since 1868, at least.  See the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution:
Quote:

1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

...





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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8829563 - 08/26/08 08:22 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

hamandcheese said:


believe me i HOPE he's legit... but I'm not willing to just "take his word for it".







good post. and i agree i hope he's legit.

I honestly think he is legit. its just IMO the birth certificate he put on his website was a fake.


why?


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8830909 - 08/26/08 02:10 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Are you still arguing about this false bullshit? I mean, really... ANYONE can nab a photo on "obamacrimes" and photoshop that as much as they want, too.

People are entitled to their own opinion, but more and more people think they are entitled to their own fact.  :bye:

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: POLAR0ID]
    #8830925 - 08/26/08 02:12 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

are you really a woman? 

I don't think we have any womenfolks posting in the political forum.  Since ron paul dropped out our only woman left...

Nice to have some new blood :thumbup:

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: POLAR0ID]
    #8830957 - 08/26/08 02:20 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

POLAR0ID said:
Are you still arguing about this false bullshit? I mean, really... ANYONE can nab a photo on "obamacrimes" and photoshop that as much as they want, too.

People are entitled to their own opinion, but more and more people think they are entitled to their own fact.  :bye:





i never said Hi? :methisgood:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Seuss]
    #8831027 - 08/26/08 02:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I knew some one would pull out the 14th specifically the citizenship clause. which was written to give former slave citizenship and ensure that anyone born on US soil is therefore subject to US jurisdictions. It does not specifically deal with presidential /office eligibility. you completely missed my point. which is that if there is sufficient evidence of conflicting or partially conflicting dual loyalties that may be grounds to exclude someone from office. however section for is written specifically with office eligibility in mind.

No one shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.


now do i believe that Obama falls into this category? no BUT if there were sufficient evidence on the contrary that he did that would be sufficient to exclude him.

in order to be eligible for president one must be:
a "natural-born citizen" of the United States of America.
be at least 35 years of age.
have held permanent residency in the United States for at least fourteen years.
and not held the position for more than 6 years.

however there are some circumstances in which someone meets those requirements but is considered ineligible.

for instance such similarly to the John Walker Lindh case.
some one born on US soil to US citizen parents.
lives in this country for at least 14 years.
moves away and joins a rebel group specific with dissent toward the United states government.
upon returning sometime after they reach the age of 35.

this person fits all of the general requirements but is still ineligible to hold  a position in a government office. because they either legally or by way of actions have infacxt relinquished there citizenship.

again i don't not have reason to believe that Obama falls under this category, i was merely making a point. however i would still like to ,beyond a shadow of a doubt, know that he does in fact meet all of the other requirements.


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8831043 - 08/26/08 02:39 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

are you in law school?


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8831063 - 08/26/08 02:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

hamandcheese said:
I knew some one would pull out the 14th specifically the citizenship clause. which was written to give former slave citizenship and ensure that anyone born on US soil is therefore subject to US jurisdictions. It does not specifically deal with presidential /office eligibility. you completely missed my point. which is that if there is sufficient evidence of conflicting or partially conflicting dual loyalties that may be grounds to exclude someone from office. however section for is written specifically with office eligibility in mind.

in order to be eligible for president one must be:
a "natural-born citizen" of the United States of America.
be at least 35 years of age.
have held permanent residency in the United States for at least fourteen years.
and not held the position for more than 6 years.

however there are some circumstances in which someone meets those requirements but is considered ineligible.

for instance such similarly to the John Walker Lindh case.
some one born on US soil to US citizen parents.
lives in this country for at least 14 years.
moves away and joins a rebel group specific with dissent toward the United states government.
upon returning sometime after they reach the age of 35.

this person fits all of the general requirements but is still ineligible to hold  a position in a government office. because they either legally or by way of actions have infacxt relinquished there citizenship.

again i don't not have reason to believe that Obama falls under this category, i was merely making a point. however i would still like to ,beyond a shadow of a doubt, know that he does in fact meet all of the other requirements.




Are you arguing legally or ideally?

Cuz I don't follow you.  Obama was born in a state he's a natural born citezin.

Legislative intent is nonsense, and is used for all manner of nefarious deeds.  Dangerous stuff, like allowing lonestar to say gays don't have equal protection, and presumably women and white folks either, cuz that amendment was intended to protect blacks, apparently.  You think the law that was ratified and voted upon should not govern, but the unstated and undiscernable motivation of the folks who wrote and passed it?  How do we tell what that is?  Where in the constitution does it say that anything other than the law is authoritiative?

Free speech was also passed to provide political, news, and religious freedoms.  So is porn, tabloids, and websites like this exempt from the protection?

Does the fourth amendment not apply to guilty folks, cuz we are only interested in securing proper citizens' rights?

Dangerous and foolish road if your arguing legality, imo.

Saying john walker shouldn't be able to run is silly.  Presuming he's still a citizen, let him. 


What exception could their possibly be to Obama's citizenship?  Born in the states, 35, lived here enough time, good enough.



A great read for those interested, scalia on legislative intent:

Quote:

    I concur in the opinion of the Court with the exception of its discussion of legislative history in Part III–A–2. For reasons I have expressed elsewhere, I believe that the only language that constitutes “a Law” within the meaning of the Bicameralism and Presentment Clause of Article I, §7, and hence the only language adopted in a fashion that entitles it to our attention, is the text of the enacted statute. See, e.g.,  Conroy v. Aniskoff, 507 U. S. 511, 518–528 (1993) (Scalia, J., concurring in judgment)...

    It may seem that there is no harm in using committee reports and other such sources when they are merely in accord with the plain meaning of the Act. But this sort of intellectual piling-on has addictive consequences. To begin with, it accustoms us to believing that what is said by a single person in a floor debate or by a committee report represents the view of Congress as a whole—so that we sometimes even will say (when referring to a floor statement and committee report) that “Congress has expressed” thus-and-so. See, e.g., Conroy, supra, at 516–517. There is no basis either in law or in reality for this naive belief. Moreover, if legislative history is relevant when it confirms the plain meaning of the statutory text, it should also be relevant when it contradicts the plain meaning, thus rendering what is plain ambiguous. Because the use of legislative history is illegitimate and ill advised in the interpretation of any statute—and especially a statute that is clear on its face—I do not join this portion of the Court’s opinion.



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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8831085 - 08/26/08 02:48 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

> I knew some one would pull out the 14th specifically the citizenship clause.

Wow, I completely mis-read your original question.  I need to slow down.  You wrote, "... is in fact a US citizen? maybe he was born in Hawaii? is that alone ALWAYS grounds enough for eligibility?" while I read, "Is being born in Hawaii ALWAYS grounds enough for being a US Citizen."  :blush:

I somehow transposed the "citizen" from the first part of your statement to the question you were asking at the end.  Wow!  Ooops!  (reread my reply with the above in mind and it makes a bit more sense)

Even then, I suspect that I was incorrect based upon your rebuttal.  "Always" is a very strong word.  You tried to ensure that this was realized by capitalizing it, and I still spaced out.  You bring up some very interesting points, and rather than shove my foot any deeper down my throat, I will allow others to reply.

(I recently ended a vice, and I suspect that my grumpy negative attitude has been a side effect.  Apologies to all of those that I have been less than polite towards this last week.  It is fairly out of character for me.  As soon as the insomnia passes, I hope to be back to normal.)


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #8831099 - 08/26/08 02:52 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:

Legislative intent is nonsense, and is used for all manner of nefarious deeds.  Dangerous stuff, like allowing lonestar to say gays don't have equal protection, 





WTF?


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8831147 - 08/26/08 03:04 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:

Legislative intent is nonsense, and is used for all manner of nefarious deeds.  Dangerous stuff, like allowing lonestar to say gays don't have equal protection, 





WTF?





Sorry man, just had to take a dig at you cuz your position on gay marriage rights frustrates me.  Plus I think its ironic that a conservative guy like yourself who values conservative judges promotes a legislative intent position.  But I love ya anyways.


Here's what I'm refering to, from my prior battles for the right to marry of gays in a state with heteroxexual marriage.  To be fair, the red crayon and I believe phred, adopted your view too.


Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:


As stated above, Fourteenth Amendment talks about people, not race.

Everyone is entitled to equal protection.

There is no difference between denying marriage to gays than to denying marriage to blacks per the constitution.

Even the "legislative intent" idiots recognize that its only a factor when the text is ambiguous.  Here it is not, and even if you bought the intent arguments, it wouldn't apply.


Why do you people keep talking about the blacks?  Am I missing something from this amendment?  Why is it relevant why it was enacted?




"The Fourteenth Amendment was proposed on June 13, 1866, to the United States Constitution  is one of the post-Civil War amendments (known as the Reconstruction Amendments),  intended to secure rights for former slaves.


" intended to secure rights for former slaves."



i remember being taught about this amendment in middle school. my teacher never mentioned anything about the the the law including slaves and gays....




http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8128463#Post8128463



I also declared victory in that thread, which means I win.  Its like planting a flag on newfound land, or the sea bed under the north pole if you're russian, it becomes yours.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #8831179 - 08/26/08 03:11 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

:smile:


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #8831200 - 08/26/08 03:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

> Plus I think its ironic that a conservative guy like yourself who values conservative judges promotes a legislative intent position.

I never understood why people care if gays marry or not... other than the religious fanatics that seem to think marriage is some kind of sacred contract binding a man and a woman under god BS.  Discrimination is discrimination.  Why shouldn't gay couples have equal rights under the law?  Marriage isn't a sacred contract binding a man and a woman under god... it is a social contract binding a couple as a joint entity under law.  As long as they aren't violating my rights, why do I care what they do?  (Yeah, the flaming in my face gays annoy me.  I don't need them shoving their gayness in my face for acceptance.  But what they do in their home... or in public, as long as they are held to the same standards as any other couple... big deal, who cares, other than the religious nuts, and nothing is going to make them happy until the US becomes a Christian state under Christian-Sharia law)


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Seuss]
    #8831236 - 08/26/08 03:41 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
big deal, who cares, other than the religious nuts, and nothing is going to make them happy until the US becomes a Christian state under Christian-Sharia law)





IMO the states should decide this issue.

and its not just "religious nuts" who are not thrilled with the idea.


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #8831380 - 08/26/08 04:14 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

>Legislative intent is nonsense, and is used for all manner of nefarious deeds.  Dangerous stuff, like allowing lonestar to say gays don't have equal protection, and presumably women and white folks either, cuz that amendment was intended to protect blacks, apparently.  You think the law that was ratified and voted upon should not govern, but the unstated and undiscernable motivation of the folks who wrote and passed it?  How do we tell what that is?  Where in the constitution does it say that anything other than the law is authoritiative?

legislative intent is completely different than knowing where a law comes from in order to understand where is going.

>Saying john walker shouldn't be able to run is silly.  Presuming he's still a citizen, let him. 

he's forfeited his citizenship by way of actions mainly the act of treason.
and REALLY? come on...
:rolleyes:


>What exception could their possibly be to Obama's citizenship?  Born in the states, 35, lived here enough time, good enough.

people really don't get the whole forgery market. birth certificates are among the most common and easiest documents to forge. unlike currency there's rarely reason to question the authenticity of the document so it can go largely unchecked. shit like this happens all the time. and as far as i understand the situation its still remains that it is entirely fathomable that he was not born in this country moved here at a very young age and had falsified documents to make it appear that he was born here... show me a copy of his paper work(front and back supposedly) side by side with someone confirmed to be born in that same hospital on the same day who has the same verification signature, in a high res. picture. sorry but the picture on his site proves absolutely nothing. it may be real. it maybe a forgery, it may just be a photoshop job... there's no way to tell as it stands.

when he proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt I'll shut the fuck up on this matter...


and  lonestar.... no I'm not in law school but i am seriously considering a political science degree. and i also have no life.


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8831442 - 08/26/08 04:27 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
big deal, who cares, other than the religious nuts, and nothing is going to make them happy until the US becomes a Christian state under Christian-Sharia law)





IMO the states should decide this issue.

and its not just "religious nuts" who are not thrilled with the idea.




States DO decide the issue.

Where have you been the past two years?

If the states' right to decide is taken by YOUR supreme court nominees in your signature, state sovereignty would not matter. It's against their idea.

Like democrats, republicans use the facts when they fit the cause and dispose when it doesn't. Like the religious folk. It's all bullshit. Take a label and defend it to the death? Fuck that.

Everyone fucks up. Those who KNOW they are right fuck up more.



~Monk

Edited by numonkei (08/26/08 04:34 PM)

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8831465 - 08/26/08 04:33 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

hamandcheese said:
>Legislative intent is nonsense, and is used for all manner of nefarious deeds.  Dangerous stuff, like allowing lonestar to say gays don't have equal protection, and presumably women and white folks either, cuz that amendment was intended to protect blacks, apparently.  You think the law that was ratified and voted upon should not govern, but the unstated and undiscernable motivation of the folks who wrote and passed it?  How do we tell what that is?  Where in the constitution does it say that anything other than the law is authoritiative?

legislative intent is completely different than knowing where a law comes from in order to understand where is going.

>Saying john walker shouldn't be able to run is silly.  Presuming he's still a citizen, let him. 

he's forfeited his citizenship by way of actions mainly the act of treason.
and REALLY? come on...
:rolleyes:


>What exception could their possibly be to Obama's citizenship?  Born in the states, 35, lived here enough time, good enough.

people really don't get the whole forgery market. birth certificates are among the most common and easiest documents to forge. unlike currency there's rarely reason to question the authenticity of the document so it can go largely unchecked. shit like this happens all the time. and as far as i understand the situation its still remains that it is entirely fathomable that he was not born in this country moved here at a very young age and had falsified documents to make it appear that he was born here... show me a copy of his paper work(front and back supposedly) side by side with someone confirmed to be born in that same hospital on the same day who has the same verification signature, in a high res. picture. sorry but the picture on his site proves absolutely nothing. it may be real. it maybe a forgery, it may just be a photoshop job... there's no way to tell as it stands.

when he proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt I'll shut the fuck up on this matter...


and  lonestar.... no I'm not in law school but i am seriously considering a political science degree. and i also have no life.




Not to be a dick, but check Chemy. THAT'S what a law-junkie should be doing, (aside from this in political theory). Helping those in Safety & Security.

I really don't mean that in any derogatory sense. We need scholars in S&S, study both! If you have the time. You might save an innocent marijuana smoker from jail time! It's a good cause... :smile:

Discernible motivation doesn't matter unless you are in a court, on the bench, to establish precedent on a current case, by the way. No one knows what the intentions were in most cases related, but someone can sure as hell decide and put it into the law books.



~Monk

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8831492 - 08/26/08 04:37 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

The Chicago Annenberg Challenge which was headed up by Obama and Ayers has more pictures of the birth certificate on their website which look different than the one on obama's website.


http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html



FactCheck is a  project primarily funded by the Chicago Annenberg Foundation....


why doesn't Obama provide the Documents himself?


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: numonkei]
    #8831506 - 08/26/08 04:40 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

numonkei said:





If the states' right to decide is taken by YOUR supreme court nominees in your signature, state sovereignty would not matter. It's against their idea.

Like democrats, republicans use the facts when they fit the cause and dispose when it doesn't. Like the religious folk. It's all bullshit. Take a label and defend it to the death? Fuck that.

Everyone fucks up. Those who KNOW they are right fuck up more.



~Monk





are u tipsy?


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: numonkei]
    #8831515 - 08/26/08 04:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

chemy? i don't follow.... sorry


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8831518 - 08/26/08 04:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Hopefully soon.

But if you see the actions of the states' on this position recently, it's plain as day.

I DO agree with you on state's rights. Regardless of the position. And parties serve to polarize folk as black and white in a grey world.

It's qwyte stoopyd. :smile:


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8831537 - 08/26/08 04:46 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

hamandcheese said:
chemy? i don't follow.... sorry




A user here who gives exceptional advice on the law to those who are in situations where they must resort to posting here for legal advice. See the S&S forum.

Though this is off topic, at this point.



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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: numonkei]
    #8831858 - 08/26/08 06:07 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

numonkei said:

Not to be a dick, but check Chemy. THAT'S what a law-junkie should be doing, (aside from this in political theory). Helping those in Safety & Security.

I really don't mean that in any derogatory sense. We need scholars in S&S, study both! If you have the time. You might save an innocent marijuana smoker from jail time! It's a good cause... :smile:

Discernible motivation doesn't matter unless you are in a court, on the bench, to establish precedent on a current case, by the way. No one knows what the intentions were in most cases related, but someone can sure as hell decide and put it into the law books.



~Monk




I don't understand by check chemy.  You mean keep him in check or something?  Since you agree he's a good source of info, I don't know what you mean.

I do try to help folks out in their, but a lot of people seem to not know the forum exists, post elsewhere, and get bad advice.  I see those in the pub/psychedelic experience a lot.  I just like hashing out the law and maybe I'll help a few people, though often the news is bad, we've had some successes lately.  Not that we made a difference per se, just that people have done ok in court.  I'd like to think we can at least analyze the liklihood someone's search will be thrown out or something and give opinions on constitutionality and legality to a pretty good degree considering we're not lawyers or anything.  But then law is mostly research, and I've got a bunch of databases at my school.


And what do you mean about motivation et cet?  I don't get your point.  The current view is that legislative intent is irrelevant till the law is unclear, but imo it shouldn't be used even then.  The law means what it says.  If it is so vague as to have no meaning to a reasonable person, not lawyer, then it should not be enforced to the detriment of anyone's rights.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #8831880 - 08/26/08 06:11 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I'm sorry, I misunderstood you.

I meant that as a shoulder-bump, wink, kind of statement. I agree with you. In regards to motivation, I was speaking in response to you. Simply stating that motivation is unlikely to be known in a court, especially in cases on constitutionality or something where the original folk being ruled upon are long dead. And also that these motivations CAN be speculated upon and used to create law, depending upon court and who is sitting the bench(s).

Nothing personal meant. Sorry if there was any offense taken, none meant. Just saying that if you have the time to study the law, use it for practical purposes too! And inform those who may not have the time, be in jail, ect.




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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: numonkei]
    #8832753 - 08/26/08 09:00 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

no offense taken, I just didn't understand you


And I've thought about persuing law, but it seems it would be very frustrating.

And I think the posters in security and safety got things under control.  Just seems folks don't know the forum exists and get bad advice elsewhere- it's not too active, unfortunatly.

And how do I help folks in jail?  I'm no lawyer, and that could get me in trouble.  The first amendment doesn't apply to people who want to write things similar to what a lawyer would write for a person.  Do that w/out licensure and you get prosecuted.

( I don't even get why you need a law degree to be barred in most states.  Seems law is a vocation anyways.  Let anyone who can pass the bar be a lawyer.  They should at least let anyone sit for the bar even if they aren't eligible for licensure.)

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #13821396 - 01/20/11 03:54 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

got a law question for ya. :smile:

So the new Gov of Hawaii has been digging around in Obama's records and has basically admitted that Obama has no Long Form. (COLB)

There is no Certificate Of Live Birth!

but Obama does have a "Notation" that god only knows who wrote but would that hold up in court?



"Pressure was mounting on Hawaii Governor Neil Abercrombie today amid increasing confusion over whether President Obama was born there.

Abercrombie said on Tuesday that an investigation had unearthed papers proving Obama was born in Hawaii in 1961.

He told Honolulu's Star-Advertiser: 'It actually exists in the archives, written down,' he said.

But it became apparent that what had been discovered was an unspecified listing or notation of Obama's birth that someone had made in the state archives and not a birth certificate.


And in the same interview Abercrombie suggested that a long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate for Barack Obama may not exist within the vital records maintained by the Hawaii Department of Health.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1348916/Hawaii-governor-says-Obamas-birth-record-exists-produce-it.html


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #13822050 - 01/20/11 06:09 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:

but Obama does have a "Notation" that god only knows who wrote but would that hold up in court?





Despite its popularity as a phrase, their is actually no particular 'standard' to be used in US courts in deciding matters.  Generally, the standard of proof simply requires a more-likely-than-not level of confidence, but it varies.  The standard of proof and other similar matters is actually one of the ways the courts are able to excercise power not explicitly granted to them by the law.  While they can't neglect the provisions of a law, they can determine that a determination to be made pursuant to it be so onnerous or so perfunctor7y that it has no real meaning, and anything in between.  I've never heard anyone actually challenge this, depsite all the 'activist court' bleatings by crazed religious lunatics, which I always found a bit strange.  My guess is people who speak of 'activist courts' generally have no idea what they hell they're talking about, so wouldn't even consider the matter: instead bitching about how a court is trying to make us muslims and our kids gay.


either way, a birth certificate is not the standard to be president, so its all a seperate issue.

The problem I have with media reports about crap like this is that they always seem to imply the relevance of the particular finding being discussed without actually coming out and stating why it is relevant.

In this example, the article fails to mention what the implications of the inability of the long form to be located in the archives is and how the facts in this case are or are not unusual.

For all I know, maybe Hawaii had a fire in the archives.  Maybe famous people seldom have their original forms present.  Maybe a large portion of the documents from that time period, that hospital, archivist, or whomever, are incomplete.  Maybe a decent portion of the documents are misplaced.

Without knowing whether this is at all unusual or having any context at all, the news that somebody isn't sure where his long form is isn't very useful unless you endeavor to use it to make unjustifiable inferences with gaping wholes in their logic.  This kinda nonsense that just invites ignorant speculation without any reasonable basis, and it seems to happen a lot.  Can they not at least comment on why the obvious questions are not answered: perhaps something as simple as ' it is unknown to our contact at the archive what proportion of the records from similar people are complete' or 'our contact has stated that records from that time period are often incomplete or misplaced but is unaware of any quantitative inormation.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #13822191 - 01/20/11 06:37 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:

either way, a birth certificate is not the standard to be president, so its all a seperate issue.




all actual long form birth certificates have the name of the kid, both
parents, the attending doctard as well as the other pertinent details of
birth including the hospital and it's location, in many states a reissue
of a birth certificate contains all that info as well


for instance, in hawaii, it would look like this, without it can we
truly believe obama was born in hawaii given the laws that allowed for
the certificate obama has shown to be issued to any kid born anywhere
outside of the state within 90 days of birth as long as his mother was a
resident of hawaii in the year prior to birth


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #13824989 - 01/21/11 09:08 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

"Obama is on a separate Hawaiian list of foreign births"???


http://lamecherry.blogspot.com/2011/01/obama-x-marks-spot.html

this blog is claiming that Hawaii allowed people born outside of Hawaii to be listed as if they were born in Hawaii, and thus American citizens...



I wonder if there really is a some secret separate list not just the American born list?


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13825072 - 01/21/11 09:34 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

"Obama Run in 2012 May Cause Boom in Birth Certificate Requests from Hawaii Health Department: Gov. Abercrombie Spokesperson Says the Issue is ‘Not Going to Go Away’, State Looking for Way to End Controversy"

http://www.hawaiireporter.com/obama-run-in-2012-may-cause-boom-in-birth-certificate-requests-from-hawaii-health-department-gov-abercrombie-spokesperson-says-the-issue-is-festering-and-%E2%80%98not-going-to-go-away%E2%80%99

State representatives file birth certificate bill filed for presidential candidates -


AUSTIN — A state representative on Tuesday filed a bill [embedded below] that would require any candidate for president or vice president of the United States to show his or her birth certificate to the Texas secretary of state, another indication of just how ambitious the conservative agenda for next year’s session of the Texas Legislature is expected to be


http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2010/11/texas-state-representatives-file-bill.html


if more states do this it could get interesting...


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #13831145 - 01/22/11 11:47 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)



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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #13831192 - 01/22/11 11:58 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

What's the deal with that Texas bill?  Why wouldn't they just provide a cause of action for any elector to challenge the qualifications or citezinship of anyone petitioning to appear on the state ballot, for president or otherwise?

Since a birth certificate is not required to be President, it seems like that bill is kinda focusing on the wrong thing.  As this whole incident demonstrates, moreover, birth certificates have no particular legal relevance and vary per state as to what is considered one, who may recieve one, and so forth.

It seems like that bill, from the brief description provided in Lonestar's post, is a good example of legislation that focuses on some side issue particular to a given case when the actual princpiple involved could be vindicated much better through a general provision: in this case granting a right of action to private plaintiffs.

Since apparently the American electors are not harmed sufficiently by a person holding the Presidency illegally and in violation of the Constitution to allow a federal cause of action, the states should step up.

BTW, how long has it been since a bunch of posters like TGGR and company claimed the legal issues settled and irrelevant as Obama was already certified eligible and a natural born citizen by the courts in the federal lawsuits?  Despite the slew of insults and fallacious arguments, I note that we've still not seen any evidence of this.  Maybe its safe to conclude they are wrong by now, lol

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #13834258 - 01/22/11 10:04 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Since a birth certificate is not required to be President





isnt proof of US birth a requirement since the president can only serve if he was born in the US or on US soil?


from GI_Luvmoney's link, doesnt serving as the president prove a tangible
interest that satisfies the hawaii state law?
Quote:

Hawaii's privacy laws have long barred the release of a certified birth certificate to anyone who doesn't have a tangible interest.



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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13836184 - 01/23/11 10:33 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
Since a birth certificate is not required to be President





isnt proof of US birth a requirement since the president can only serve if he was born in the US or on US soil?





Strictly speaking per the law?  No
In practice?  No (unless someone makes a stink with the power to do something or who suffers an actual injury/ has an actual case or controversy with the candidate/president due to his ineligibility and thereby gets standing to sue. (i.e., not us peons who only elect the guy)


I presume you mean "natural born citizen" rather than "US birth", as the former is the requirement rather than the later, so I've answered your question as if it were the former.


The Constitution does limit eligibility to certain people, requiring citizenship by way of birth, but there is no stated mechanism to enforce the same.  While there is probably some administrative law, perhaps even statutory, on the subject of eligibility and so forth, I'm unaware of any substantive process requiring the candidate to prove anything at the federal level.  At the state level its more complicated and from my recollection I believe the states may, in adition to administering the election, set their own mechanisms for enforcing federal requirements, I just don't believe they're done so for major party candidates a priori (before the election or a complaint, lawsuit, et cet) other than require candidates to swear to their eligibility and so forth.

In general, the "good old boy's club" has separate rules for the duopoly and the peons, so I wouldn't be surprised if a number of states actually have putative measures for investigating such things that aren't used for major party candidates or that explicitly exempt the "chosen ones" endorsed by the extraconstitutional political parties.  I know my state has such provisions, but in general the duopoly only needs to sign a paper claiming to meet the criteria whilest the onnerous provisions are applied to the third parties (sometimes actually making it impossible for them to run at all- the legislature is so incompotent and unconcerned with those not of the duopoly that they actually sometimes let laws slip in that makes it legally impossible for a third party candidate to run).

In Practice, there is no federal enforcement mechanism other than congress to look into such matters.  The courts are always an option, but since its been decided that a candidate running for an office he cannot legally hold and a President holding office in violation of the constitution doesn't matter enough and doesn't cause sufficient harm to a citizen to allow them to sue to enforce the constitution, there's really nothing the courts can do even if someone does bring suite.  The exception to this would be if congress changes things and provides a means of private enforcement or if you can get one of those extraconstitutional political parties to sue.  Somehow despite not being mentioned in teh constitution at all and having no official purpose in the election, they can get the case heard  :rolleyes:

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #13836277 - 01/23/11 11:03 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

If there where truly any doubt of Obama's citizenship you can bet the republicans would have spent every last cent they had to prove it. I have seen a copy of Obama's birth certificate stamped with the proper certification stamp. Spend a little time looking and you can find it too. To think that they would let something like this get by in a presidential election is absurd.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #13836551 - 01/23/11 12:14 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Who is "they"?  What is "this"?  Why would it be absurd that "they" would let something like "this" get by in a presidential election?


Anyways, I think your reply is misplaced as I have not expressed an oppinion on the merits of the challenges made or endorsed the view that he's ineligible or not a natural born citizen.  It's a bit disenchanting to notice that whatever principled position someone takes is inevitably construed to evince support of that position your declared principles or reasoning aids.  Seems like we set the bar a little too low in assuming no intellectual integrity of our fellow citizens (if you are).

Then again, I realize you're a new poster, so if you didn't mean to reply to me per se then ignore all that rubbish above and welcome :smile2:

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #13837393 - 01/23/11 03:15 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Who is "they"?  What is "this"?  Why would it be absurd that "they" would let something like "this" get by in a presidential election?


Anyways, I think your reply is misplaced as I have not expressed an oppinion on the merits of the challenges made or endorsed the view that he's ineligible or not a natural born citizen.  It's a bit disenchanting to notice that whatever principled position someone takes is inevitably construed to evince support of that position your declared principles or reasoning aids.  Seems like we set the bar a little too low in assuming no intellectual integrity of our fellow citizens (if you are).

Then again, I realize you're a new poster, so if you didn't mean to reply to me per se then ignore all that rubbish above and welcome :smile2:




I think you missed the part where the new user explicitly called out the Republicans. And then used third-person pronouns to refer to them thereafter...?


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: nanomagnetic]
    #13837563 - 01/23/11 03:47 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

ahh, yes, I think you are correct :thumbup:


That raises a new question then, and I personally don't see why it should be presumed the lack of Republican challenge to Obama's eligibility means anything. 

a) challenges, especially regarding nationality and place of birth, would inherently be divisive and with the attention paid to "negative campaigning" allready, it seems inevitable that a formal challenge would garner the party much negative publicity.  This is a real reason to consider that cuts against pursuing a challenge

b) the Republicans thinking he's ineligible and being able to prove it are two different things.  While if they had ironclad proof I would imagine they'd bring it forward, that's not to say that the much more likely drawn out and widely publicised/condemned lawsuits would be succesfull- and they'd surely know it.  To get an injunction they'd have to bear the burden of proof, and I see no justification for you presumption that this costly (in terms of political support) challenge would be pursued if the Republicans had anything.  There's a wide gap between what's true and what you can prove.

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: MagicBear]
    #13841079 - 01/24/11 08:46 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MagicBear said:
If there where truly any doubt of Obama's citizenship you can bet the republicans would have spent every last cent they had to prove it. I have seen a copy of Obama's birth certificate stamped with the proper certification stamp. Spend a little time looking and you can find it too. To think that they would let something like this get by in a presidential election is absurd.





"Republican House majority leader Eric Cantor says he believes Obama is a citizen and I don't think it's an issue that we need to address at"

"Republican House Speaker John Boehner says that the state of Hawaii has said that President Obama was born there. That's good enough for me!"


Republican leadership has stayed far away from this controversy.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #13841111 - 01/24/11 08:58 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
ahh, yes, I think you are correct :thumbup:


That raises a new question then, and I personally don't see why it should be presumed the lack of Republican challenge to Obama's eligibility means anything. 

a) challenges, especially regarding nationality and place of birth, would inherently be divisive and with the attention paid to "negative campaigning" allready, it seems inevitable that a formal challenge would garner the party much negative publicity.  This is a real reason to consider that cuts against pursuing a challenge

b) the Republicans thinking he's ineligible and being able to prove it are two different things.  While if they had ironclad proof I would imagine they'd bring it forward, that's not to say that the much more likely drawn out and widely publicised/condemned lawsuits would be succesfull- and they'd surely know it.  To get an injunction they'd have to bear the burden of proof, and I see no justification for you presumption that this costly (in terms of political support) challenge would be pursued if the Republicans had anything.  There's a wide gap between what's true and what you can prove.





right but why did a DEMOCRAT get this controversy all stirred up again?

why would the governor of Hawaii do his own investigation and basically say he has no proof that Obama was born in his state!

now why would he do that?

my gut is telling me that hes covering his ass!

God help our country if just one state makes Obama prove he is a natural born citizen and show the long form to get on the ballot..

because i dont believe hes got one! and this could be the cluster fuck of ALL cluster fucks!


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Edited by lonestar2004 (01/24/11 09:25 AM)

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #13841361 - 01/24/11 10:17 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

interesting memo sent to congress.

http://www.libertynewsonline.com/editorialview.php?editid=29646&imgnr=2

"Many of the inquiries have questioned why then-Senator, and now President, Obama has not had to produce an original, so-called 'long' version of a 'birth certificate' from the State of Hawaii, how federal candidates are 'vetted' for qualifications generally, and have asked for an assessment of the various allegations and claims of non-eligibility status."

In other words, senators and members of the House could not explain why nobody ever saw Obama's long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate, and they needed a ready answer to give angry constituents who were writing, faxing and telephoning their offices for an answer.

The second full paragraph of the CRS memo must be read in its entirety to understand fully the circumstance that allowed a candidate for whom documentation was concealed from the public to be elected and sworn in as president.

It states:

"Concerning the production or release of an original birth certificate, it should be noted that there is no federal law, regulation, rule, guideline, or requirement that a candidate for federal office produce his or her original birth certificate, or a certified copy of the record of live birth, to any official of the United States government; nor is there a requirement for federal candidates to publicly release such personal record or documentation. Furthermore, there is no specific federal agency or office that 'vets' candidates for federal office as to qualifications or eligibility prior to return."

What the CRS admits is that Obama got a pass from Congress and the federal government as a whole on his birth qualifications under Article 2, Section 1. Nobody in Congress or the federal government sought to look for Obama's certified long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate, because no law or regulation required them to look.




http://www.libertynewsonline.com/article_301_29646.php#


After the document was written, nobody in Congress could claim that Congress or anyone else in the federal government had reviewed Obama's birth certificate or determined Obama was eligible to be president.


It simply did not happen.


The CRS memo also admits that federal elections are administered under state law


"The mechanics of elections of federal officials within the several states are administered under state law. The quadrennial presidential election, although required since 1845 to be held on the same day in each state is, in an administrative and operational sense, fifty-one separate elections in the states and the District of Columbia for presidential electors. States generally control, within the applicable constitutional parameters, the administrative issues, questions, and mechanisms of ballot placement and ballot access."
The next key point is that like federal law, neither do state laws require anyone to examine the birth qualifications of presidential candidates."


The states may have discretionary authority to question a candidate's eligibility to run for federal office, but there is no requirement in state law to do so, not when it comes to looking at birth records.

Once more, the memo makes this plain:

"In Keyes v. Bowen, the California Supreme Court discussed a suit against the secretary of state that challenged President Obama's eligibility and the California electoral votes for [the] finding that: 'Petitioners have not identified any authority requiring the secretary of state to make an inquiry into or demand detailed proof of citizenship from presidential candidates,' and thus mandamus (a writ of mandate) was not granted. However, although no 'ministerial duty' or mandatory requirement exists to support a mandamus action, there may still exist discretionary authority in such elections official."
A writ of mandamus in this case brought by Ambassador Alan Keyes would have involved a court order being issued by the secretary of state in California demanding Obama produce his long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate to get his name on California's presidential ballot in 2008.

What the CRS is saying is that since there was no state law demanding Obama show his birth certificate, the court could not demand he do so. It was entirely up to the California secretary of state who had discretion to ask for the document or not ask for the document, depending upon what the California secretary of state, a Democrat for othis election cycle, wanted to do.

The CRS's conclusion is that Obama could refuse to show his long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate because no state or federal law required him reveal it.

The report said, therefore, Obama could release exactly what information he chose.

"Despite the absence of any formal administrative or legal requirement or oversight at the federal level, or specific state requirement to produce a birth certificate for ballot placement, it may be noted here briefly that the only 'official' documentation or record that has been presented in the matter of President Obama's eligibility has been an official, certified copy of the record of live birth released by the Obama campaign in June of 2008, as an apparent effort by then-candidate Obama to address rumors and innuendos concerning the place of his birth."

The result is that Obama could choose exactly what information – and in what format – he wanted released. He chose the computer-generated Certification of Live Birth, a form from the state of Hawaii that officials there have provided to those not born in the state, to document his eligibility.

The CRS also makes it clear that if the birth requirements of the Constitution are to be taken seriously, new laws at the state and federal levels will be needed to institutionalize government procedures requiring president candidates to come forward with their eligibility documentation.


The Constitution, Article 2, Section 1, states, "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President."


However, none of the cases filed to date has been successful in reaching the plateau of legal discovery, so that information about Obama's birth could be obtained.


Several states already have begun working on various requirements for candidates to document their eligibility, and one proposal remains pending at the federal level.

:crazy2:




IMO if only one state makes Obama provide his long form hes done! Obama can fight the state in court but for the first time "legal discovery can be obtained!

And just imagine Obama trying to defend not showing his birth certificate when other presidential candidates will comply willingly during the 2012 elections?



--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Edited by lonestar2004 (01/24/11 11:40 AM)

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #13842832 - 01/24/11 03:36 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)



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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: GI_Luvmoney]
    #13865663 - 01/28/11 12:17 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Hawaii lawmakers want release of Obama birth info ... Five Hawaii Democratic representatives want to pass a law making President Barack Obama's (left) birth records public and charge $100 to see them. The bill, introduced this week, would change a privacy law barring the release of birth records to anyone unless they have a tangible interest. The measure hasn't been scheduled for a public hearing yet, and can't move forward until that happens

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110127/ap_on_re_us/us_obama_birth_certificate_1


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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