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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #13824989 - 01/21/11 09:08 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

"Obama is on a separate Hawaiian list of foreign births"???


http://lamecherry.blogspot.com/2011/01/obama-x-marks-spot.html

this blog is claiming that Hawaii allowed people born outside of Hawaii to be listed as if they were born in Hawaii, and thus American citizens...



I wonder if there really is a some secret separate list not just the American born list?


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13825072 - 01/21/11 09:34 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

"Obama Run in 2012 May Cause Boom in Birth Certificate Requests from Hawaii Health Department: Gov. Abercrombie Spokesperson Says the Issue is ‘Not Going to Go Away’, State Looking for Way to End Controversy"

http://www.hawaiireporter.com/obama-run-in-2012-may-cause-boom-in-birth-certificate-requests-from-hawaii-health-department-gov-abercrombie-spokesperson-says-the-issue-is-festering-and-%E2%80%98not-going-to-go-away%E2%80%99

State representatives file birth certificate bill filed for presidential candidates -


AUSTIN — A state representative on Tuesday filed a bill [embedded below] that would require any candidate for president or vice president of the United States to show his or her birth certificate to the Texas secretary of state, another indication of just how ambitious the conservative agenda for next year’s session of the Texas Legislature is expected to be


http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2010/11/texas-state-representatives-file-bill.html


if more states do this it could get interesting...


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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InvisibleGI_Luvmoney
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #13831145 - 01/22/11 11:47 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)



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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #13831192 - 01/22/11 11:58 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

What's the deal with that Texas bill?  Why wouldn't they just provide a cause of action for any elector to challenge the qualifications or citezinship of anyone petitioning to appear on the state ballot, for president or otherwise?

Since a birth certificate is not required to be President, it seems like that bill is kinda focusing on the wrong thing.  As this whole incident demonstrates, moreover, birth certificates have no particular legal relevance and vary per state as to what is considered one, who may recieve one, and so forth.

It seems like that bill, from the brief description provided in Lonestar's post, is a good example of legislation that focuses on some side issue particular to a given case when the actual princpiple involved could be vindicated much better through a general provision: in this case granting a right of action to private plaintiffs.

Since apparently the American electors are not harmed sufficiently by a person holding the Presidency illegally and in violation of the Constitution to allow a federal cause of action, the states should step up.

BTW, how long has it been since a bunch of posters like TGGR and company claimed the legal issues settled and irrelevant as Obama was already certified eligible and a natural born citizen by the courts in the federal lawsuits?  Despite the slew of insults and fallacious arguments, I note that we've still not seen any evidence of this.  Maybe its safe to conclude they are wrong by now, lol

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #13834258 - 01/22/11 10:04 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Since a birth certificate is not required to be President





isnt proof of US birth a requirement since the president can only serve if he was born in the US or on US soil?


from GI_Luvmoney's link, doesnt serving as the president prove a tangible
interest that satisfies the hawaii state law?
Quote:

Hawaii's privacy laws have long barred the release of a certified birth certificate to anyone who doesn't have a tangible interest.



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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13836184 - 01/23/11 10:33 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
Since a birth certificate is not required to be President





isnt proof of US birth a requirement since the president can only serve if he was born in the US or on US soil?





Strictly speaking per the law?  No
In practice?  No (unless someone makes a stink with the power to do something or who suffers an actual injury/ has an actual case or controversy with the candidate/president due to his ineligibility and thereby gets standing to sue. (i.e., not us peons who only elect the guy)


I presume you mean "natural born citizen" rather than "US birth", as the former is the requirement rather than the later, so I've answered your question as if it were the former.


The Constitution does limit eligibility to certain people, requiring citizenship by way of birth, but there is no stated mechanism to enforce the same.  While there is probably some administrative law, perhaps even statutory, on the subject of eligibility and so forth, I'm unaware of any substantive process requiring the candidate to prove anything at the federal level.  At the state level its more complicated and from my recollection I believe the states may, in adition to administering the election, set their own mechanisms for enforcing federal requirements, I just don't believe they're done so for major party candidates a priori (before the election or a complaint, lawsuit, et cet) other than require candidates to swear to their eligibility and so forth.

In general, the "good old boy's club" has separate rules for the duopoly and the peons, so I wouldn't be surprised if a number of states actually have putative measures for investigating such things that aren't used for major party candidates or that explicitly exempt the "chosen ones" endorsed by the extraconstitutional political parties.  I know my state has such provisions, but in general the duopoly only needs to sign a paper claiming to meet the criteria whilest the onnerous provisions are applied to the third parties (sometimes actually making it impossible for them to run at all- the legislature is so incompotent and unconcerned with those not of the duopoly that they actually sometimes let laws slip in that makes it legally impossible for a third party candidate to run).

In Practice, there is no federal enforcement mechanism other than congress to look into such matters.  The courts are always an option, but since its been decided that a candidate running for an office he cannot legally hold and a President holding office in violation of the constitution doesn't matter enough and doesn't cause sufficient harm to a citizen to allow them to sue to enforce the constitution, there's really nothing the courts can do even if someone does bring suite.  The exception to this would be if congress changes things and provides a means of private enforcement or if you can get one of those extraconstitutional political parties to sue.  Somehow despite not being mentioned in teh constitution at all and having no official purpose in the election, they can get the case heard  :rolleyes:

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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #13836277 - 01/23/11 11:03 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

If there where truly any doubt of Obama's citizenship you can bet the republicans would have spent every last cent they had to prove it. I have seen a copy of Obama's birth certificate stamped with the proper certification stamp. Spend a little time looking and you can find it too. To think that they would let something like this get by in a presidential election is absurd.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #13836551 - 01/23/11 12:14 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Who is "they"?  What is "this"?  Why would it be absurd that "they" would let something like "this" get by in a presidential election?


Anyways, I think your reply is misplaced as I have not expressed an oppinion on the merits of the challenges made or endorsed the view that he's ineligible or not a natural born citizen.  It's a bit disenchanting to notice that whatever principled position someone takes is inevitably construed to evince support of that position your declared principles or reasoning aids.  Seems like we set the bar a little too low in assuming no intellectual integrity of our fellow citizens (if you are).

Then again, I realize you're a new poster, so if you didn't mean to reply to me per se then ignore all that rubbish above and welcome :smile2:

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Offlinenanomagnetic
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
    #13837393 - 01/23/11 03:15 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Who is "they"?  What is "this"?  Why would it be absurd that "they" would let something like "this" get by in a presidential election?


Anyways, I think your reply is misplaced as I have not expressed an oppinion on the merits of the challenges made or endorsed the view that he's ineligible or not a natural born citizen.  It's a bit disenchanting to notice that whatever principled position someone takes is inevitably construed to evince support of that position your declared principles or reasoning aids.  Seems like we set the bar a little too low in assuming no intellectual integrity of our fellow citizens (if you are).

Then again, I realize you're a new poster, so if you didn't mean to reply to me per se then ignore all that rubbish above and welcome :smile2:




I think you missed the part where the new user explicitly called out the Republicans. And then used third-person pronouns to refer to them thereafter...?


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: nanomagnetic]
    #13837563 - 01/23/11 03:47 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

ahh, yes, I think you are correct :thumbup:


That raises a new question then, and I personally don't see why it should be presumed the lack of Republican challenge to Obama's eligibility means anything. 

a) challenges, especially regarding nationality and place of birth, would inherently be divisive and with the attention paid to "negative campaigning" allready, it seems inevitable that a formal challenge would garner the party much negative publicity.  This is a real reason to consider that cuts against pursuing a challenge

b) the Republicans thinking he's ineligible and being able to prove it are two different things.  While if they had ironclad proof I would imagine they'd bring it forward, that's not to say that the much more likely drawn out and widely publicised/condemned lawsuits would be succesfull- and they'd surely know it.  To get an injunction they'd have to bear the burden of proof, and I see no justification for you presumption that this costly (in terms of political support) challenge would be pursued if the Republicans had anything.  There's a wide gap between what's true and what you can prove.

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: MagicBear]
    #13841079 - 01/24/11 08:46 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MagicBear said:
If there where truly any doubt of Obama's citizenship you can bet the republicans would have spent every last cent they had to prove it. I have seen a copy of Obama's birth certificate stamped with the proper certification stamp. Spend a little time looking and you can find it too. To think that they would let something like this get by in a presidential election is absurd.





"Republican House majority leader Eric Cantor says he believes Obama is a citizen and I don't think it's an issue that we need to address at"

"Republican House Speaker John Boehner says that the state of Hawaii has said that President Obama was born there. That's good enough for me!"


Republican leadership has stayed far away from this controversy.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #13841111 - 01/24/11 08:58 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
ahh, yes, I think you are correct :thumbup:


That raises a new question then, and I personally don't see why it should be presumed the lack of Republican challenge to Obama's eligibility means anything. 

a) challenges, especially regarding nationality and place of birth, would inherently be divisive and with the attention paid to "negative campaigning" allready, it seems inevitable that a formal challenge would garner the party much negative publicity.  This is a real reason to consider that cuts against pursuing a challenge

b) the Republicans thinking he's ineligible and being able to prove it are two different things.  While if they had ironclad proof I would imagine they'd bring it forward, that's not to say that the much more likely drawn out and widely publicised/condemned lawsuits would be succesfull- and they'd surely know it.  To get an injunction they'd have to bear the burden of proof, and I see no justification for you presumption that this costly (in terms of political support) challenge would be pursued if the Republicans had anything.  There's a wide gap between what's true and what you can prove.





right but why did a DEMOCRAT get this controversy all stirred up again?

why would the governor of Hawaii do his own investigation and basically say he has no proof that Obama was born in his state!

now why would he do that?

my gut is telling me that hes covering his ass!

God help our country if just one state makes Obama prove he is a natural born citizen and show the long form to get on the ballot..

because i dont believe hes got one! and this could be the cluster fuck of ALL cluster fucks!


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Edited by lonestar2004 (01/24/11 09:25 AM)

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #13841361 - 01/24/11 10:17 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

interesting memo sent to congress.

http://www.libertynewsonline.com/editorialview.php?editid=29646&imgnr=2

"Many of the inquiries have questioned why then-Senator, and now President, Obama has not had to produce an original, so-called 'long' version of a 'birth certificate' from the State of Hawaii, how federal candidates are 'vetted' for qualifications generally, and have asked for an assessment of the various allegations and claims of non-eligibility status."

In other words, senators and members of the House could not explain why nobody ever saw Obama's long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate, and they needed a ready answer to give angry constituents who were writing, faxing and telephoning their offices for an answer.

The second full paragraph of the CRS memo must be read in its entirety to understand fully the circumstance that allowed a candidate for whom documentation was concealed from the public to be elected and sworn in as president.

It states:

"Concerning the production or release of an original birth certificate, it should be noted that there is no federal law, regulation, rule, guideline, or requirement that a candidate for federal office produce his or her original birth certificate, or a certified copy of the record of live birth, to any official of the United States government; nor is there a requirement for federal candidates to publicly release such personal record or documentation. Furthermore, there is no specific federal agency or office that 'vets' candidates for federal office as to qualifications or eligibility prior to return."

What the CRS admits is that Obama got a pass from Congress and the federal government as a whole on his birth qualifications under Article 2, Section 1. Nobody in Congress or the federal government sought to look for Obama's certified long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate, because no law or regulation required them to look.




http://www.libertynewsonline.com/article_301_29646.php#


After the document was written, nobody in Congress could claim that Congress or anyone else in the federal government had reviewed Obama's birth certificate or determined Obama was eligible to be president.


It simply did not happen.


The CRS memo also admits that federal elections are administered under state law


"The mechanics of elections of federal officials within the several states are administered under state law. The quadrennial presidential election, although required since 1845 to be held on the same day in each state is, in an administrative and operational sense, fifty-one separate elections in the states and the District of Columbia for presidential electors. States generally control, within the applicable constitutional parameters, the administrative issues, questions, and mechanisms of ballot placement and ballot access."
The next key point is that like federal law, neither do state laws require anyone to examine the birth qualifications of presidential candidates."


The states may have discretionary authority to question a candidate's eligibility to run for federal office, but there is no requirement in state law to do so, not when it comes to looking at birth records.

Once more, the memo makes this plain:

"In Keyes v. Bowen, the California Supreme Court discussed a suit against the secretary of state that challenged President Obama's eligibility and the California electoral votes for [the] finding that: 'Petitioners have not identified any authority requiring the secretary of state to make an inquiry into or demand detailed proof of citizenship from presidential candidates,' and thus mandamus (a writ of mandate) was not granted. However, although no 'ministerial duty' or mandatory requirement exists to support a mandamus action, there may still exist discretionary authority in such elections official."
A writ of mandamus in this case brought by Ambassador Alan Keyes would have involved a court order being issued by the secretary of state in California demanding Obama produce his long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate to get his name on California's presidential ballot in 2008.

What the CRS is saying is that since there was no state law demanding Obama show his birth certificate, the court could not demand he do so. It was entirely up to the California secretary of state who had discretion to ask for the document or not ask for the document, depending upon what the California secretary of state, a Democrat for othis election cycle, wanted to do.

The CRS's conclusion is that Obama could refuse to show his long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate because no state or federal law required him reveal it.

The report said, therefore, Obama could release exactly what information he chose.

"Despite the absence of any formal administrative or legal requirement or oversight at the federal level, or specific state requirement to produce a birth certificate for ballot placement, it may be noted here briefly that the only 'official' documentation or record that has been presented in the matter of President Obama's eligibility has been an official, certified copy of the record of live birth released by the Obama campaign in June of 2008, as an apparent effort by then-candidate Obama to address rumors and innuendos concerning the place of his birth."

The result is that Obama could choose exactly what information – and in what format – he wanted released. He chose the computer-generated Certification of Live Birth, a form from the state of Hawaii that officials there have provided to those not born in the state, to document his eligibility.

The CRS also makes it clear that if the birth requirements of the Constitution are to be taken seriously, new laws at the state and federal levels will be needed to institutionalize government procedures requiring president candidates to come forward with their eligibility documentation.


The Constitution, Article 2, Section 1, states, "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President."


However, none of the cases filed to date has been successful in reaching the plateau of legal discovery, so that information about Obama's birth could be obtained.


Several states already have begun working on various requirements for candidates to document their eligibility, and one proposal remains pending at the federal level.

:crazy2:




IMO if only one state makes Obama provide his long form hes done! Obama can fight the state in court but for the first time "legal discovery can be obtained!

And just imagine Obama trying to defend not showing his birth certificate when other presidential candidates will comply willingly during the 2012 elections?



--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Edited by lonestar2004 (01/24/11 11:40 AM)

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InvisibleGI_Luvmoney
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
    #13842832 - 01/24/11 03:36 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)



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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: GI_Luvmoney]
    #13865663 - 01/28/11 12:17 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Hawaii lawmakers want release of Obama birth info ... Five Hawaii Democratic representatives want to pass a law making President Barack Obama's (left) birth records public and charge $100 to see them. The bill, introduced this week, would change a privacy law barring the release of birth records to anyone unless they have a tangible interest. The measure hasn't been scheduled for a public hearing yet, and can't move forward until that happens

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110127/ap_on_re_us/us_obama_birth_certificate_1


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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