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Seuss
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: hamandcheese]
#8831085 - 08/26/08 02:48 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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> I knew some one would pull out the 14th specifically the citizenship clause.
Wow, I completely mis-read your original question. I need to slow down. You wrote, "... is in fact a US citizen? maybe he was born in Hawaii? is that alone ALWAYS grounds enough for eligibility?" while I read, "Is being born in Hawaii ALWAYS grounds enough for being a US Citizen." 
I somehow transposed the "citizen" from the first part of your statement to the question you were asking at the end. Wow! Ooops! (reread my reply with the above in mind and it makes a bit more sense)
Even then, I suspect that I was incorrect based upon your rebuttal. "Always" is a very strong word. You tried to ensure that this was realized by capitalizing it, and I still spaced out. You bring up some very interesting points, and rather than shove my foot any deeper down my throat, I will allow others to reply.
(I recently ended a vice, and I suspect that my grumpy negative attitude has been a side effect. Apologies to all of those that I have been less than polite towards this last week. It is fairly out of character for me. As soon as the insomnia passes, I hope to be back to normal.)
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.



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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
#8831099 - 08/26/08 02:52 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Legislative intent is nonsense, and is used for all manner of nefarious deeds. Dangerous stuff, like allowing lonestar to say gays don't have equal protection,
WTF?
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
#8831147 - 08/26/08 03:04 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
lonestar2004 said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
Legislative intent is nonsense, and is used for all manner of nefarious deeds. Dangerous stuff, like allowing lonestar to say gays don't have equal protection,
WTF?
Sorry man, just had to take a dig at you cuz your position on gay marriage rights frustrates me. Plus I think its ironic that a conservative guy like yourself who values conservative judges promotes a legislative intent position. But I love ya anyways.
Here's what I'm refering to, from my prior battles for the right to marry of gays in a state with heteroxexual marriage. To be fair, the red crayon and I believe phred, adopted your view too.
Quote:
lonestar2004 said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
As stated above, Fourteenth Amendment talks about people, not race.
Everyone is entitled to equal protection.
There is no difference between denying marriage to gays than to denying marriage to blacks per the constitution.
Even the "legislative intent" idiots recognize that its only a factor when the text is ambiguous. Here it is not, and even if you bought the intent arguments, it wouldn't apply.
Why do you people keep talking about the blacks? Am I missing something from this amendment? Why is it relevant why it was enacted?
"The Fourteenth Amendment was proposed on June 13, 1866, to the United States Constitution is one of the post-Civil War amendments (known as the Reconstruction Amendments), intended to secure rights for former slaves.
" intended to secure rights for former slaves."
i remember being taught about this amendment in middle school. my teacher never mentioned anything about the the the law including slaves and gays....
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8128463#Post8128463
I also declared victory in that thread, which means I win. Its like planting a flag on newfound land, or the sea bed under the north pole if you're russian, it becomes yours.
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.



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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
#8831179 - 08/26/08 03:11 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
#8831200 - 08/26/08 03:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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> Plus I think its ironic that a conservative guy like yourself who values conservative judges promotes a legislative intent position.
I never understood why people care if gays marry or not... other than the religious fanatics that seem to think marriage is some kind of sacred contract binding a man and a woman under god BS. Discrimination is discrimination. Why shouldn't gay couples have equal rights under the law? Marriage isn't a sacred contract binding a man and a woman under god... it is a social contract binding a couple as a joint entity under law. As long as they aren't violating my rights, why do I care what they do? (Yeah, the flaming in my face gays annoy me. I don't need them shoving their gayness in my face for acceptance. But what they do in their home... or in public, as long as they are held to the same standards as any other couple... big deal, who cares, other than the religious nuts, and nothing is going to make them happy until the US becomes a Christian state under Christian-Sharia law)
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.



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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: Seuss]
#8831236 - 08/26/08 03:41 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: big deal, who cares, other than the religious nuts, and nothing is going to make them happy until the US becomes a Christian state under Christian-Sharia law)
IMO the states should decide this issue.
and its not just "religious nuts" who are not thrilled with the idea.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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hamandcheese
Sandwich


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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
#8831380 - 08/26/08 04:14 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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>Legislative intent is nonsense, and is used for all manner of nefarious deeds. Dangerous stuff, like allowing lonestar to say gays don't have equal protection, and presumably women and white folks either, cuz that amendment was intended to protect blacks, apparently. You think the law that was ratified and voted upon should not govern, but the unstated and undiscernable motivation of the folks who wrote and passed it? How do we tell what that is? Where in the constitution does it say that anything other than the law is authoritiative?
legislative intent is completely different than knowing where a law comes from in order to understand where is going.
>Saying john walker shouldn't be able to run is silly. Presuming he's still a citizen, let him.
he's forfeited his citizenship by way of actions mainly the act of treason. and REALLY? come on...

>What exception could their possibly be to Obama's citizenship? Born in the states, 35, lived here enough time, good enough.
people really don't get the whole forgery market. birth certificates are among the most common and easiest documents to forge. unlike currency there's rarely reason to question the authenticity of the document so it can go largely unchecked. shit like this happens all the time. and as far as i understand the situation its still remains that it is entirely fathomable that he was not born in this country moved here at a very young age and had falsified documents to make it appear that he was born here... show me a copy of his paper work(front and back supposedly) side by side with someone confirmed to be born in that same hospital on the same day who has the same verification signature, in a high res. picture. sorry but the picture on his site proves absolutely nothing. it may be real. it maybe a forgery, it may just be a photoshop job... there's no way to tell as it stands.
when he proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt I'll shut the fuck up on this matter...
and lonestar.... no I'm not in law school but i am seriously considering a political science degree. and i also have no life.
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numonkei
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
#8831442 - 08/26/08 04:27 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
lonestar2004 said:
Quote:
Seuss said: big deal, who cares, other than the religious nuts, and nothing is going to make them happy until the US becomes a Christian state under Christian-Sharia law)
IMO the states should decide this issue.
and its not just "religious nuts" who are not thrilled with the idea.
States DO decide the issue.
Where have you been the past two years?
If the states' right to decide is taken by YOUR supreme court nominees in your signature, state sovereignty would not matter. It's against their idea.
Like democrats, republicans use the facts when they fit the cause and dispose when it doesn't. Like the religious folk. It's all bullshit. Take a label and defend it to the death? Fuck that.
Everyone fucks up. Those who KNOW they are right fuck up more.
~Monk
Edited by numonkei (08/26/08 04:34 PM)
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numonkei
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: hamandcheese]
#8831465 - 08/26/08 04:33 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
hamandcheese said: >Legislative intent is nonsense, and is used for all manner of nefarious deeds. Dangerous stuff, like allowing lonestar to say gays don't have equal protection, and presumably women and white folks either, cuz that amendment was intended to protect blacks, apparently. You think the law that was ratified and voted upon should not govern, but the unstated and undiscernable motivation of the folks who wrote and passed it? How do we tell what that is? Where in the constitution does it say that anything other than the law is authoritiative?
legislative intent is completely different than knowing where a law comes from in order to understand where is going.
>Saying john walker shouldn't be able to run is silly. Presuming he's still a citizen, let him.
he's forfeited his citizenship by way of actions mainly the act of treason. and REALLY? come on...

>What exception could their possibly be to Obama's citizenship? Born in the states, 35, lived here enough time, good enough.
people really don't get the whole forgery market. birth certificates are among the most common and easiest documents to forge. unlike currency there's rarely reason to question the authenticity of the document so it can go largely unchecked. shit like this happens all the time. and as far as i understand the situation its still remains that it is entirely fathomable that he was not born in this country moved here at a very young age and had falsified documents to make it appear that he was born here... show me a copy of his paper work(front and back supposedly) side by side with someone confirmed to be born in that same hospital on the same day who has the same verification signature, in a high res. picture. sorry but the picture on his site proves absolutely nothing. it may be real. it maybe a forgery, it may just be a photoshop job... there's no way to tell as it stands.
when he proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt I'll shut the fuck up on this matter...
and lonestar.... no I'm not in law school but i am seriously considering a political science degree. and i also have no life.
Not to be a dick, but check Chemy. THAT'S what a law-junkie should be doing, (aside from this in political theory). Helping those in Safety & Security.
I really don't mean that in any derogatory sense. We need scholars in S&S, study both! If you have the time. You might save an innocent marijuana smoker from jail time! It's a good cause... 
Discernible motivation doesn't matter unless you are in a court, on the bench, to establish precedent on a current case, by the way. No one knows what the intentions were in most cases related, but someone can sure as hell decide and put it into the law books.
~Monk
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lonestar2004
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: hamandcheese]
#8831492 - 08/26/08 04:37 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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The Chicago Annenberg Challenge which was headed up by Obama and Ayers has more pictures of the birth certificate on their website which look different than the one on obama's website.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html
FactCheck is a project primarily funded by the Chicago Annenberg Foundation....
why doesn't Obama provide the Documents himself?
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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lonestar2004
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: numonkei]
#8831506 - 08/26/08 04:40 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
numonkei said:
If the states' right to decide is taken by YOUR supreme court nominees in your signature, state sovereignty would not matter. It's against their idea.
Like democrats, republicans use the facts when they fit the cause and dispose when it doesn't. Like the religious folk. It's all bullshit. Take a label and defend it to the death? Fuck that.
Everyone fucks up. Those who KNOW they are right fuck up more.
~Monk
are u tipsy?
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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hamandcheese
Sandwich


Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 12,530
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: numonkei]
#8831515 - 08/26/08 04:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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chemy? i don't follow.... sorry
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numonkei
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
#8831518 - 08/26/08 04:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hopefully soon.
But if you see the actions of the states' on this position recently, it's plain as day.
I DO agree with you on state's rights. Regardless of the position. And parties serve to polarize folk as black and white in a grey world.
It's qwyte stoopyd. 
~Monk
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numonkei
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: hamandcheese]
#8831537 - 08/26/08 04:46 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
hamandcheese said: chemy? i don't follow.... sorry
A user here who gives exceptional advice on the law to those who are in situations where they must resort to posting here for legal advice. See the S&S forum.
Though this is off topic, at this point.
~Monk
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: numonkei]
#8831858 - 08/26/08 06:07 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
numonkei said: Not to be a dick, but check Chemy. THAT'S what a law-junkie should be doing, (aside from this in political theory). Helping those in Safety & Security.
I really don't mean that in any derogatory sense. We need scholars in S&S, study both! If you have the time. You might save an innocent marijuana smoker from jail time! It's a good cause... 
Discernible motivation doesn't matter unless you are in a court, on the bench, to establish precedent on a current case, by the way. No one knows what the intentions were in most cases related, but someone can sure as hell decide and put it into the law books.
~Monk
I don't understand by check chemy. You mean keep him in check or something? Since you agree he's a good source of info, I don't know what you mean.
I do try to help folks out in their, but a lot of people seem to not know the forum exists, post elsewhere, and get bad advice. I see those in the pub/psychedelic experience a lot. I just like hashing out the law and maybe I'll help a few people, though often the news is bad, we've had some successes lately. Not that we made a difference per se, just that people have done ok in court. I'd like to think we can at least analyze the liklihood someone's search will be thrown out or something and give opinions on constitutionality and legality to a pretty good degree considering we're not lawyers or anything. But then law is mostly research, and I've got a bunch of databases at my school.
And what do you mean about motivation et cet? I don't get your point. The current view is that legislative intent is irrelevant till the law is unclear, but imo it shouldn't be used even then. The law means what it says. If it is so vague as to have no meaning to a reasonable person, not lawyer, then it should not be enforced to the detriment of anyone's rights.
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numonkei
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
#8831880 - 08/26/08 06:11 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm sorry, I misunderstood you.
I meant that as a shoulder-bump, wink, kind of statement. I agree with you. In regards to motivation, I was speaking in response to you. Simply stating that motivation is unlikely to be known in a court, especially in cases on constitutionality or something where the original folk being ruled upon are long dead. And also that these motivations CAN be speculated upon and used to create law, depending upon court and who is sitting the bench(s).
Nothing personal meant. Sorry if there was any offense taken, none meant. Just saying that if you have the time to study the law, use it for practical purposes too! And inform those who may not have the time, be in jail, ect.
~Monk
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johnm214



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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: numonkei]
#8832753 - 08/26/08 09:00 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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no offense taken, I just didn't understand you
And I've thought about persuing law, but it seems it would be very frustrating.
And I think the posters in security and safety got things under control. Just seems folks don't know the forum exists and get bad advice elsewhere- it's not too active, unfortunatly.
And how do I help folks in jail? I'm no lawyer, and that could get me in trouble. The first amendment doesn't apply to people who want to write things similar to what a lawyer would write for a person. Do that w/out licensure and you get prosecuted.
( I don't even get why you need a law degree to be barred in most states. Seems law is a vocation anyways. Let anyone who can pass the bar be a lawyer. They should at least let anyone sit for the bar even if they aren't eligible for licensure.)
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lonestar2004
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
#13821396 - 01/20/11 03:54 PM (13 years, 3 months ago) |
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got a law question for ya. 
So the new Gov of Hawaii has been digging around in Obama's records and has basically admitted that Obama has no Long Form. (COLB)
There is no Certificate Of Live Birth!
but Obama does have a "Notation" that god only knows who wrote but would that hold up in court?
"Pressure was mounting on Hawaii Governor Neil Abercrombie today amid increasing confusion over whether President Obama was born there.
Abercrombie said on Tuesday that an investigation had unearthed papers proving Obama was born in Hawaii in 1961.
He told Honolulu's Star-Advertiser: 'It actually exists in the archives, written down,' he said.
But it became apparent that what had been discovered was an unspecified listing or notation of Obama's birth that someone had made in the state archives and not a birth certificate.
And in the same interview Abercrombie suggested that a long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate for Barack Obama may not exist within the vital records maintained by the Hawaii Department of Health.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1348916/Hawaii-governor-says-Obamas-birth-record-exists-produce-it.html
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: lonestar2004]
#13822050 - 01/20/11 06:09 PM (13 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
lonestar2004 said:
but Obama does have a "Notation" that god only knows who wrote but would that hold up in court?
Despite its popularity as a phrase, their is actually no particular 'standard' to be used in US courts in deciding matters. Generally, the standard of proof simply requires a more-likely-than-not level of confidence, but it varies. The standard of proof and other similar matters is actually one of the ways the courts are able to excercise power not explicitly granted to them by the law. While they can't neglect the provisions of a law, they can determine that a determination to be made pursuant to it be so onnerous or so perfunctor7y that it has no real meaning, and anything in between. I've never heard anyone actually challenge this, depsite all the 'activist court' bleatings by crazed religious lunatics, which I always found a bit strange. My guess is people who speak of 'activist courts' generally have no idea what they hell they're talking about, so wouldn't even consider the matter: instead bitching about how a court is trying to make us muslims and our kids gay.
either way, a birth certificate is not the standard to be president, so its all a seperate issue.
The problem I have with media reports about crap like this is that they always seem to imply the relevance of the particular finding being discussed without actually coming out and stating why it is relevant.
In this example, the article fails to mention what the implications of the inability of the long form to be located in the archives is and how the facts in this case are or are not unusual.
For all I know, maybe Hawaii had a fire in the archives. Maybe famous people seldom have their original forms present. Maybe a large portion of the documents from that time period, that hospital, archivist, or whomever, are incomplete. Maybe a decent portion of the documents are misplaced.
Without knowing whether this is at all unusual or having any context at all, the news that somebody isn't sure where his long form is isn't very useful unless you endeavor to use it to make unjustifiable inferences with gaping wholes in their logic. This kinda nonsense that just invites ignorant speculation without any reasonable basis, and it seems to happen a lot. Can they not at least comment on why the obvious questions are not answered: perhaps something as simple as ' it is unknown to our contact at the archive what proportion of the records from similar people are complete' or 'our contact has stated that records from that time period are often incomplete or misplaced but is unaware of any quantitative inormation.
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Analysis: Faked birth certificate suggests Obama may not be US citizen [Re: johnm214]
#13822191 - 01/20/11 06:37 PM (13 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
either way, a birth certificate is not the standard to be president, so its all a seperate issue.
all actual long form birth certificates have the name of the kid, both parents, the attending doctard as well as the other pertinent details of birth including the hospital and it's location, in many states a reissue of a birth certificate contains all that info as well
for instance, in hawaii, it would look like this, without it can we truly believe obama was born in hawaii given the laws that allowed for the certificate obama has shown to be issued to any kid born anywhere outside of the state within 90 days of birth as long as his mother was a resident of hawaii in the year prior to birth
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