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 Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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 Re: -=imagine=-  [Re: ]
#861090 - 09/03/02 06:54 AM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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You said it yourself, you are describing 're-socialization.'
Well that one line was. None of the rest of the half dozen posts were. Try and address those points first.
Cheers.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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emex
amigo
Registered: 07/24/02
Posts: 90
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Re: -=imagine=- [Re: emex]
#861564 - 09/03/02 11:25 AM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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he has good intentions and just cuz we could never become something such as his ideals it doesnt mean we cant strive for it
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I had not expected fear, but terror came with her
and tho I sought a dying moment, she showed me a dying eternity
and tho I sought to bring wisdom into the real, she tore the real from me
and I was no more, and in unbeing, I lost my fear
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Anonymous
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Re: -=imagine=- [Re: Xlea321]
#862310 - 09/03/02 06:18 PM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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I totally forgot about this thread and your comment to me. Let me address it.
First of all when I said 'fantastic' I meant 'quaint' as in unfamiliar to me. In that sense they are fantastic.
It is true that you have never seen a dinosaur but the only ideas you have about how they lived are from the ideas of scientists. In the case of the dinosaurs there is multitudinous evidence that document the way they lived in relation to the sparceness of evidence that documents the way man lived.
I do agree with the idea that man's biology does not drive him to war. It doesn't. It is the nature of man that resides in his mind that does that. That is an area for philosophy and never for science. We are not just a bunch of chemicals, we have consciousness and as far as we know we are the only beings with it.
This is one of those subjects where the premises are so far incorrect that it would be extremely hard to get the topic on neutral ground to discuss it.
As far as I can tell this 'idea', and I do use that term loosely, that man is not a killer is ludicrous to the point of being risible. One only needs to turn to modern stone age man and notice the actions of tribes like the Auca in South America to see how man is violent. The Auca were unknown to civilization until this past century and yet they were savages that brutally murdered other tribes, buried children alive with their dead parents and performed all sorts of unspeakably immoral acts against themselves and the neighboring tribes alike.
It seems to me that the 'idea' is some cooked up version of communism or anarachy that has no basis in reality. The brutality in man has nothing whatsoever to do with some kind of political 'state' but with the state of man's heart which is evil beyond our worst nightmares. Thinking that the solution to man's problems is a political one IS the problem nowadays. Such thinking is immature at best and deadly at worst. We don't need anarchy to solve the problems of our inherent nature.
Now, as I know you from your posting style I am quite certain that you will go for the last word. Fine. So be it. But that doesn't mean that you are right. I have no intention to waste the time I have dueling with you. I have said what I needed to say and that is all. If any one wishes to find out who is right they will have to do the research on their own.
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: -=imagine=- [Re: ]
#862329 - 09/03/02 06:41 PM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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Now, as I know you from your posting style I am quite certain that you will go for the last word. Fine. So be it
LOL. So replying to your points is "having the last word"? So be it...
The evidence exists. People can check it out and make up their own mind. In my opinion there is vastly more evidence pointing to warfare not existing before the beginning of trading and "civilisation". Thus warfare is not an innate part of human nature but simply a byproduct of our culture. It appears to be an invention not a natural part of our nature.
btw, I have no interest in duelling with you either. Just getting to the truth. You mention the aucas - why not mention the eskimo who don't even have a word for war in their language? Indeed the concept doesn't even exist to them. Or the Lepchas of sikkim? Mentioning one tribe and using this as your basis for saying "this proves all men in the past made war" is simply ludicrous.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Anonymous
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Re: -=imagine=- [Re: Xlea321]
#862433 - 09/03/02 07:36 PM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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Ok, so you sucked me in a little. I really don't have time for a long drawn out diatribe/dialogue with you.
You seem to misunderstand a basic principle of logic. In the instance where a single existence of an entity disproves a hypothesis the hypothesis is thus disproved.
It is not necessary to mention tribes that live in peace when all that is necessary to disprove your theory is the existence of one tribe that does not have the political structure you outlined and yet kills. The existence of the Auca and their behavior disproves your theory.
If you were to say that the nature of a dog is not to be black the existence of one black dog disproves your premise. I found the dog.
I also noticed that you added to your premise (ad hoc assumptions are never very convincing) by adding the proviso "trading". The Auca did not trade either.
The existence of a tribe that neither trades nor has a political structure like that of which you blame the ills of mankind, i.e. killing, and yet kills is all that is needed to disprove your theory.
What I meant by having the last word is that I view you from previous engagements as the type of person who will not quit or relent and takes that persistence for some kind of victory because you had the fortitude to wear your opponent down to the point where they will not respond to you anymore.
I assure you that point will arrive very easily with me. And I further will add that does not mean you are right. In all likelihood all it means is that you are confused or misinformed and unteachable.
Cheers,
Edited by Mr_Mushrooms (09/03/02 09:29 PM)
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tak_old
Endo Smoke
Registered: 05/31/02
Posts: 609
Loc: State of confusion
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Re: -=imagine=- [Re: ]
#862619 - 09/03/02 11:32 PM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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People naturally try to get what they want, when they want. People live for themselves, and thats how it works. People say that they wish they lives back in the day, and this is how they would change things... PERSONALLY, I think things are the way they need to be for now. People strive to get to the top, everythign is chaos, the big man is killing everyone, we need a powerful force to stop him. We start to create order. Government is formed. I think we have taken the only possible path there is. Peace on earth, and peace of mind dont exist before government, they exist through experiance. In our modern image of society, we cannot live in a perfect world, people will always try to get what they want. I read somewhere, a guy who figure out The Way in his mind. He lives in a perfect world, because he has everything he wants. With evolution comes options. Im not saying some mass destruction of the earth wouldnt be cool, but it wouldnt be cool in the sense of starting over, but in the way that it would make people relize that we are evolving, and now that we have hookers, cocaine, and HBO we cannot stop. The stuff we do now is mainly for marketing. Im sure some people are true about it, but for example, research on brains may be for a cure to something, so they can sell a product. Computing is getting more powerful, we can now look at porn like never before seen. The problem is also part of the answer. Without money, people have no motivation to develop. They will not have the funds to research what they want by simply doing it for recreation. I guess it all could be diffrent in some ways, but in my opinion, things are happening the way they need to happen, and the natural order is occuring. We cant all wait around for it to happen either, and modern society wont always allow us to contribute 100%, so we get tied up in polotics, and other stuff, while wasting time.
The thing we need to remember is its mans natural instict to have power. If we are to live in peace, we need to do it mutually. The government is capable of many things, and if its providing peace thats neat, but you know they wont do it without being able to play god. Whether there should be a government, or not, and how it will work, i dont know. I dont know if we will reach that stage, or if we are all gonna be lifted into the spiritual world, and none of it will matter. The one thing I do know is that I know nothing. Everything I have learned is learned, and not always true. Everyday someone does something new, thought impossible. The world isnt just what the TV says it is, and I believe that it can be completely reformed, and things you would never think could work would. With the greatest of ease.
But just remember, Peace of Mind comes before World Peace.... Someone on here had this quote not too long ago:
Yesterday I was clever. That is why I wanted to change the world. Today I am wise. That is why I am changing myself. ~ Sri Chinmoy
Go back to the days of your childhood. When you had ifinate understanding, yet knew nothing. You were a young mind learning more and more about why you were here. First you stepped out of the crib, wondering what else there is to your life. Next you leave the living room to go outside wondering what more there is beyond these walls. Your quest outward comes to a halt when you are informed that you can reach no more. This was only told to you. You try everything else in life the hard way and gain personal experiance. Don't make this the only exception.
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: -=imagine=- [Re: ]
#862890 - 09/04/02 04:35 AM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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You seem to misunderstand a basic principle of logic. In the instance where a single existence of an entity disproves a hypothesis the hypothesis is thus disproved.
Well, you seem to misunderstand that we're not talking logic, we're talking human beings and nature here. If we tried following your logic then the fact that Ted Bundy existed mean that all human beings like raping and murdering 12 year old children. It's nonsense.
Nature likes variation. 1 or 2% of human beings will be aggresive psychopaths, over a long enough period of time it is likely that various societies will come under their influence. For example Hitlers Germany. This doesn't mean all human beings are violent psychopaths.
The existence of a tribe that neither trades nor has a political structure like that of which you blame the ills of mankind, i.e. killing, and yet kills is all that is needed to disprove your theory.
Of course it proves nothing of the sort. Human beings are different. This is a basic fundamental principle of our evolution. Certain characteristics will be emphasised in some people under certain enironmental conditions. Hitlers germany came about for many reasons. This does not mean every human being longs to live in Hitlers Germany.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
Edited by Alex123 (09/04/02 05:14 AM)
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Anonymous
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Re: -=imagine=- [Re: tak_old]
#862973 - 09/04/02 05:32 AM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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That's very insightful tak. I agree with most of it. I particularly liked this line:
"The one thing I do know is that I know nothing."
There are very few things in life that we can know with certitude.
However, that being said there are a few things that we do know. At least I will claim to know them. We know we exist. We know others exist. We know the nature of man by interacting with him. And that leads us to the conclusion, as we interact with others and read the history of mankind, that man can be a wonderful benefit to himself and the planet or he can be the worst violator of himself and the planet.
The older I become the more I realize how much the ego comes into play. It is the ego that always wishes to have the last word, to defend and protect itself, and exudes the will to power. The ego is deadly because if it truely had its way it would be god. If God Himself truely exists there is no way a person trapped in the ego can know Him because they only know their self. It's one God at a time in this reality and we all have to choose who it will be, ourselves or someone outside ourselves.
Great thoughts tak. Nice talking with you.
Cheers,
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tak_old
Endo Smoke
Registered: 05/31/02
Posts: 609
Loc: State of confusion
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Re: -=imagine=- [Re: ]
#863681 - 09/04/02 01:02 PM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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I hear that, we should ask our senators to pass a law making EGO's illegal ;] Mass ego loss clinics
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