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Anonymous

Re: -=imagine=- [Re: Xlea321]
    #858320 - 09/02/02 07:15 AM (19 years, 26 days ago)

Btw.. Whoever said no utopia is going to be forced on people is right. Something has to happen to bring all this capitalistic materialist bullshit down, and gone. Something cataclysmic, so we can go back to what REALLY matters. Living, feeling, understanding ourselves. Then once we've learned more about that we can advance again, and not get caught in that materialist 'rut.' We arent getting alot done, but we have the potential to, if something would just change..

Ah.. I'm really hoping that asteroid hits us in 2017 or whatever. Hopefully moms comin round to put things back the way they oughta be.. Sigh.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: -=imagine=- [Re: ]
    #858321 - 09/02/02 07:19 AM (19 years, 26 days ago)

I'm really hoping that asteroid hits us in 2017

that's not the solution I was looking for.  :smile:

 


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Anonymous

Re: -=imagine=- [Re: infidelGOD]
    #858323 - 09/02/02 07:20 AM (19 years, 26 days ago)

Whatever happens, happens. If thats what it takes, so be it. ;p


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: -=imagine=- [Re: ]
    #858328 - 09/02/02 07:25 AM (19 years, 26 days ago)

I'm hoping it'll take less than armaggedon to change the world...

If we had a fresh start, there are no guarantees that things would be any different. Probably the same type of people will come to power again.



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Anonymous

Re: -=imagine=- [Re: infidelGOD]
    #858331 - 09/02/02 07:27 AM (19 years, 26 days ago)

In reply to:

You don't see many idealistic musicians these days. It seems like they have all resigned to human nature instead of trying to change it.





Tool! ;p


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: -=imagine=- [Re: ]
    #858336 - 09/02/02 07:35 AM (19 years, 26 days ago)

Are you calling me a tool?  :mad:

J/K, I know there are a few good ones out there but music in general has taken a nosedive since the 60s/70s.
Most of the idealists of that time are either dead or have drugged themselves into oblivion. It's people like us who have to carry on the legacy of Lennon and friends.

Of course, by all accounts it's been a resounding failure for the idealists - considering the state of things in the world...

 


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: -=imagine=- [Re: infidelGOD]
    #858478 - 09/02/02 09:30 AM (19 years, 26 days ago)

There's a famous myth known as the "Killer-ape" theory that has been completly discredited but thanks to the opening scene of 2001 it seems some people still wish to believe in it. It's a myth highly suited to authoritian control. Read around on the net about and you'll find out why the idea of "Violent apes" is pushed in our society so heavily.

Over most of human evolutionary history , the multiplier effect of docility was limited by the small size (250 or less, usually much less) of human social units. But when a single alpha male or cooperating group of alpha males could command the aggressive bachelor males of a large city or entire nation, the rules changed. Warfare and genocide became possible.

...And this brings us to the final reason for the prevalence of the myth of man the killer; that it encourages obedience and legitimizes social control of the individual. The man who fears Hobbes's "warre", who sees every one of his neighbors as a potential murderer, will surrender nearly anything to be protected from them. He will call for a strong hand from above; he will become a willing instrument in the oppression of his fellows. He may even allow himself to be turned into a killer in fact. Society will be atomized into millions of fearful fragments, each reacting to the fear of fantasied individual violence by sponsoring the political conditions for real violence on a large scale.

Even when the fear of violence is less acute, the myth of man the killer well serves power elites of all kinds. To define the central problem of society as the repression of a universal individual tendency to violence is to imply an authoritarian solution; it is to deny without examination the proposition that individual self-interest and voluntary cooperation are sufficient for civil order.

In sum, the myth of man the killer degrades and ultimately disempowers the individual, and unhelpfully deflects attention from the social mechanisms and social instincts that actually underlie virtually all violence. If we are all innately killers, no one is responsible; the sporadic violence of crime and the more systematic violence of governments (whether in "state" or "pre-state" societies, and in wartime or otherwise) is as inevitable as sex.

On the other hand, if we recognize that most violence (and all large-scale violence) arises from obedience, and especially from the commission of aggressive violence by bachelor males at the command of alpha male pack leaders, then we can begin to ask more fruitful questions. Like: what can we do, culturally, to disrupt this causal chain?



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: -=imagine=- [Re: Xlea321]
    #858492 - 09/02/02 09:45 AM (19 years, 26 days ago)

Over most of human evolutionary history...

Quickly:

1. You weren't there.

2. Although I find your ideas to be completely incorrect I am nevertheless fascinated with them and am extremely curious as to their origin.

Where did you get these fantastic ideas?

Cheers,


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: -=imagine=- [Re: Xlea321]
    #858507 - 09/02/02 09:54 AM (19 years, 26 days ago)

I find it is not worthwhile to debate what "human nature" really is. It is yet another attempt to impose social norms on the masses. Think about it, when you try to define human nature, you are saying this is how things are supposed to be.

You pointed out that it is the "power elites" that benefit from people believing that human nature is violent. I agree with you, but aren't you trying to define human nature yourself by saying that harmony is the natural state of man? I think neither of these is correct. Human nature isn't an unchanging thing. It evolves, just like we evolve.

We are sentient beings and human nature is whatever we want it to be.


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: -=imagine=- [Re: Xlea321]
    #858537 - 09/02/02 10:12 AM (19 years, 26 days ago)

> the myth of man the killer

Awesome post Alex, I'm with you all the way!

Humanity wouldn't have evolved without the fundamental desire to cooperate and love. Sex is more necessary to survival than violence, and yet violence is touted as the "natural selection pressure" that won our right to evolution. Complete bullshit.

Its sad that virtually every scientist today believes the violence myth.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: -=imagine=- [Re: pattern]
    #858557 - 09/02/02 10:31 AM (19 years, 26 days ago)

Alex-
Show me a group of primates in the wild that doesn't have an aggressive element to it. Most animals that can be aggressive ARE aggressive (exceptions might include certain turtles). I don't see how humans could have evolved with such tendencies conspicuously absent and THEN become aggressive (and now we're supposed to REVERT to our "natural" tendencies... before civilization?). Maybe you should change your name to "Devil's Advocate".


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Edited by Sclorch (09/02/02 10:41 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: -=imagine=- [Re: ]
    #858613 - 09/02/02 11:09 AM (19 years, 26 days ago)

1. You weren't there.

Well i've never seen a dinosaur either but i have some idea of how they lived.

Where did you get these fantastic ideas?

Nothing fantastic about them, it's all common knowledge. Havn't you heard of the book "African Genesis"? It sparked a storm of debate in the early 60's by raising the killer ape idea - later used by Kubrick in 2001. It's since been discredited. There's a wealth of information suggesting warfare only became common in human history since the rise of the state and trading around 5000 years ago.

During the International Year of Peace 1986 an international conference of natural and social scientists at Seville University issued the Seville Statement on Violence, modeled on the UNESCO Statement on Race, and since adopted by the American Anthropological Association and other professional organizations. The scholars wished to "challenge a number of alleged biological findings that have been used ... to justify violence and war" and to affirm that "biology does not condemn humanity to war." They specifically pronounced the following anathemas:
IT IS SCIENTIFICALLY INCORRECT to say that we have inherited a tendency to make war from our animal ancestors.... IT IS SCIENTIFICALLY INCORRECT to say that war or any other violent behavior is genetically programmed into our human nature.... IT IS SCIENTIFICALLY INCORRECT to say that in the course of human evolution there has been a selection for aggressive behavior....

Furthur info here:

http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/seville1.html


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Alex123 (09/02/02 11:18 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: -=imagine=- [Re: Sclorch]
    #858669 - 09/02/02 11:37 AM (19 years, 26 days ago)

Sure aggression is a feature of most animals - particularly meat eaters because we have to kill other animals. But it's also a fact, well-known to military planners, that somewhere around 70% of troops in their first combat-fire situation find themselves frozen, unable to trigger lethal weapons at a live enemy. It takes training and intense re-socialization to make soldiers out of raw recruits. And it is a notable point, that this socialization has to concentrate on getting a trainee to obey orders and identify with the group. This suggests that far from warfare being "natural" on an individual basis it takes a serious amount of cultural group conditioning to make us overcome our natural reluctance.

As Major D.S Pierson said "Getting most soldiers to pull the trigger on another human being requires great effort. In World War II, General S.L.A. Marshall studied infantry unit firing ratios and concluded that only 15 to 25 percent of infantrymen ever fired their weapons in combat"


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Alex123 (09/02/02 11:41 AM)


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InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: -=imagine=- [Re: Xlea321]
    #858809 - 09/02/02 01:08 PM (19 years, 26 days ago)

very good posts alex! i really could not have done that better, or even as good as you did... i could not have proven my(our) point that well..


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Anonymous

Re: -=imagine=- [Re: In(di)go]
    #859112 - 09/02/02 04:00 PM (19 years, 25 days ago)

males compete violently for the love of females. love is sex sublimated.


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Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
Re: -=imagine=- [Re: In(di)go]
    #859139 - 09/02/02 04:20 PM (19 years, 25 days ago)

fact is, there exist thousands of advanced societies across the universe... societies that exist like john lennon described it in that song...

Please refrain from using the word fact at the beginning of a statement that has no foundations built on evidence.


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InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
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Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: -=imagine=- [Re: chodamunky]
    #859830 - 09/02/02 09:32 PM (19 years, 25 days ago)

well, i have the evidence... you just don?t believe in it


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: -=imagine=- [Re: In(di)go]
    #860249 - 09/02/02 11:43 PM (19 years, 25 days ago)

Seriously, the back patting has got to go....


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: -=imagine=- [Re: Sclorch]
    #860298 - 09/02/02 11:59 PM (19 years, 25 days ago)

back patting?


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Anonymous

Re: -=imagine=- [Re: Xlea321]
    #860899 - 09/03/02 07:29 AM (19 years, 25 days ago)

In reply to:

But it's also a fact, well-known to military planners, that somewhere around 70% of troops in their first combat-fire situation find themselves frozen, unable to trigger lethal weapons at a live enemy. It takes training and intense re-socialization to make soldiers out of raw recruits. And it is a notable point, that this socialization has to concentrate on getting a trainee to obey orders and identify with the group. This suggests that far from warfare being "natural" on an individual basis it takes a serious amount of cultural group conditioning to make us overcome our natural reluctance.



You said it yourself, you are describing 're-socialization.' This is not the same as proving the innate nature of man. Most of us are socialized to act civilly. I am giving you a personal invitation to come to L.A. to engage in a sociological study to prove your 'theories.' I will drop you off at Nickerson Gardens to observe the natural harmony of man at his most basic and primal... you will meet people who need no 're-socialization' to pull the trigger on their fellow man. Oh, and wear an I.D. bracelet and bring your organ donor card, because they take ATMs, American Express, Cash and the lives of silly naive white people.


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