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InvisibleLuddite
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Zealot blocks coal power plant permits
    #8544888 - 06/20/08 03:18 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

You can see the kind of damage global warming hysteria can cause from this article.



Kansan Stokes Energy Squabble With Coal Ruling Official Cites Warming In Blocking Two Plants; 'Ground Zero' in Fight
By STEPHEN POWER
March 19, 2008; Page A6
WASHINGTON -- Rod Bremby doesn't have the star power of Al Gore or Arnold Schwarzenegger, but his decision to block a permit for two big coal-fired power plants in Kansas has put him at center stage in the national debate over energy and the environment.

Last fall, Mr. Bremby, secretary of the Kansas Department of Health and Environment, took the unusual step of citing global warming as the basis for blocking a major coal-fired power project. Legal experts said they couldn't recall another case where a regulator at either the state or federal level has held up such a project solely over concerns about greenhouse gases.

The decision provoked outrage from coal producers. A lawsuit is pending, and the Kansas Supreme Court has agreed to weigh in. A group backed by a major coal producer printed newspaper ads alleging that Mr. Bremby's decision benefits men like Vladimir Putin, Hugo Chávez and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad by forcing Kansas to "import more
natural gas from countries like Russia, Venezuela and Iran." (The U.S. doesn't currently import natural gas from those countries, according to the U.S.'s Energy Information Administration.)

A majority of the Kansas Legislature has sided with the coal interests, passing legislation this month that would overturn Mr. Bremby's decision and strip him of much of his power. That triggered a confrontation with the state's governor, Kathleen Sebelius, who is threatening a veto.  "Kansas is ground zero in the fight over the future of coal," says Frank Maisano, a Washingtonbased
spokesman for developers of coal-fired plants. Bruce Nilles, an attorney who heads the Sierra Club's campaign against coal, calls Mr. Bremby's decision "a watershed moment."

Mr. Bremby says that rejecting the plants was "extremely difficult." The project would bring $3.6 billion in investment to the state. His own staff recommended approving it. But Mr. Bremby says it would have been "irresponsible" to ignore emerging information about the contribution of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases to climate change and "the potential harm to our environment and health if we do nothing." His action also highlights a growing concern for U.S. industry. In the absence of national regulations governing carbon-dioxide emissions, state officials are stepping into the void,
proposing their own limits on carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases. As Congress weighs proposals to enact a national cap on carbon-dioxide emissions, members are debating how much leeway to allow states to pursue their own greenhouse-gas limits. Mr. Bremby's decision has delighted politicians in Washington who want to curb U.S. reliance on coal, the source of about half the country's electricity. Earlier this month, Democrats called him to
Washington to testify before a congressional committee on global warming and present a counterpoint to President Bush's top air-pollution regulator, Stephen Johnson. Mr. Johnson, administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency, has declined for months to publicly
declare greenhouse gases a threat to public health or welfare.
The 48-year-old Mr. Bremby doesn't have a law degree or a long history in climate-change politics. Before becoming Kansas' top health and environmental regulator, he was an assistant city manager in Lawrence, Kan., where his most extensive environmental work was controlling stormwater
runoff and pesticide use in local parks. Mr. Bremby's critics say he acted unlawfully by unilaterally altering public policy in the absence of federal or state laws governing carbon-dioxide emissions. A major reason why Kansans enjoy low electricity costs compared with the national average is that three-quarters of their electricity comes from coal-fired generating plants, according to the EIA. If Mr. Bremby's decision stands,
his critics say, it will lead to higher energy costs for consumers, while doing nothing to address Kansas' older, more inefficient coal-fired plants.
"For an unelected person to decide on his own to make this kind of decision without any input from the legislative branch is a huge mistake," says Steve Morris, president of Kansas' state Senate. "When you hear about China putting a new coal plant on line every week and so many other sources of pollution around, to try to single out one [project] as the magic bullet to offset the
emissions of tens of thousands of other emissions producers doesn't make a lot of sense."
Despite their large carbon footprint, the plants also would have emitted less carbon dioxide on a kilowatt-hour basis than any coal-fired plant in Kansas. The plants' developer had planned to partially offset their emissions by capturing their carbon-dioxide emissions and using them to grow algae. The algae would then be used for a number of purposes, including to make biodiesel,
an alternative to petroleum.
But, Mr. Bremby points out, most of the energy generated by the plants would have gone outside the state. In making his decision, he says, he was influenced by "a lot of things [that] were moving at the same time." They included a Supreme Court ruling in April that carbon-dioxide is a pollutant, emerging scientific evidence about climate change and a joint letter from attorneys
general for six states, warning him that the proposed plants' carbon-dioxide emissions would cancel out their own states' carbon-dioxide reductions.

That scenario, Mr. Bremby says, seemed "absurd," given that his state has only 2.7 million inhabitants, compared
with 45 million in the other affected states. "If appointed officials only did what they're directed to
do by policy makers, without [heeding] science or laws, they'd be just hacks," Mr. Bremby says.
He also notes that two months before his decision, the Kansas Energy Council -- a group that advises the state on energy policy and that includes half a dozen senior legislators -- declined to endorse either a cap or a tax on carbon-dioxide emissions.
"No one was dealing with it," Mr. Bremby says of man-made carbon-dioxide emissions in his state.
Some of Mr. Bremby's opponents accuse him of kowtowing to his boss, Gov. Sebelius. A fastrising star in Democratic Party politics, Ms. Sebelius had publicly opposed the project. Mr. Bremby says that he never discussed the plants with her before his decision and that her views
didn't influence him. A spokesman for Gov. Sebelius says the governor didn't attempt to sway Mr. Bremby.
In the absence of any state laws regulating greenhouse gases, Mr. Bremby has prodded Kansas' utilities to reduce their carbon-dioxide emissions voluntarily. Last month, he secured a commitment from Kansas' biggest utility, Westar Energy Inc., to measure its greenhouse gases
and find ways to reduce them.
But the company's agreement doesn't set specific  emissions targets. And until the federal government regulates greenhouse gases, Mr. Bremby says, his state will be limited in its ability to address carbon-dioxide emissions. "I can't do anything about what's going on in China," Mr. Bremby says. "But I know this decision means we [in Kansas] won't be contributing to that impact
of climate change."

Write to Stephen Power at stephen.power@wsj.com1
URL for this article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120589054976747401.html
Hyperlinks in this Article:
(1) mailto:stephen.power@wsj.com


http://dcnr.nv.gov/temp_news/coal_031908.pdf

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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: Luddite]
    #8544900 - 06/20/08 03:23 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

More insanity caused by the false religion of global warming hysteria.

Please buy our dirty oil

Mar 13th 2008 | OTTAWA
From The Economist print edition
A new American law could limit oil-sands production in Alberta


CANADIANS like to think that although they are the junior partner in their trade relations with the United States, the 174 billion barrels of proven reserves in the oil sands of Alberta provide a powerful ace up their sleeve in any dealings with their energy-hungry neighbour. That belief has now been shaken by an American law that appears to prohibit American government agencies from buying crude produced in the oil sands of the western province.

The Energy Independence and Security Act 2007 did not set out to discriminate against Canada, America's biggest supplier of oil. But that is the effect of banning federal agencies from buying alternative or synthetic fuel, including that from non-conventional sources, if their production and use result in more greenhouse gases than conventional oil. Transforming Alberta's tarry muck into a barrel of oil is an energy-intensive process that produces about three times the emissions of a barrel of conventional light sweet crude.

Having woken belatedly to the danger, the Canadian government is now scrambling to secure an exception. Michael Wilson, Canada's ambassador in Washington, has written to America's secretary of defence, Robert Gates (whose department is a big purchaser of Canadian oil), stressing American dependence on Canadian oil, electricity, natural gas and uranium imports, and noting that some of the biggest players in the Alberta oil patch are American companies. Mr Wilson added plaintively that both George Bush and his energy secretary, Samuel Bodman, have publicly welcomed expanded oil-sands production, given the increased contribution to American energy security.

John Baird, the Canadian environment minister, referred this week to the American move when he unveiled new proposals to reduce industrial emissions in Canada, including the oil sands, by 20% by 2020. Big states like California were making similar pronouncements, he told reporters. The oil sands were an important national resource, but had to be expanded in an environmentally friendly way.

The fear in Canada is that the American purchasing restrictions, which at present apply only to federal agencies, is the start of a wholesale shift to greener as well as more protectionist policies under a Congress and potentially a White House controlled by the Democrats. With energy exports, mainly from Alberta, driving the Canadian economy, this is not a happy thought for Canadians.

Yet environmentalists point out that Canada is now paying for its own foot-dragging at the federal level on green initiatives. Having signed the Kyoto agreement under a previous Liberal government, Canada did little to stop its emissions rising. They are now almost 35% above the Kyoto target. And although Mr Baird likes to describe his plan as tough, it will not bring Canada into line with Kyoto. The rules for the oil sands, now the fastest growing source of greenhouse gases, have yet to be finalised and will not come into force until 2010. Furthermore, they rely on carbon capture, a promising but unproven technology.

The vagueness of the proposed federal rules did not stop the premier of Alberta, Ed Stelmach, from giving a defiant warning that he will stand up for the interests of Albertans (read oil industry) and will be examining the constitution to ensure that the federal government's proposed plan does not intrude on provincial jurisdiction. His province has one of the weakest environmental regimes in Canada.

Although the Canadian embassy says that there has been no official response to Mr Wilson's letter, there are reports of talks going on in Washington aimed at addressing Canada's concerns. But even if a deal is reached with the outgoing Bush administration, any exception for Canada may be short-lived if green-tinged Democrats take the White House in November.

http://www.economist.com/world/la/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10853957

Edited by Luddite (06/20/08 03:24 PM)

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Invisibledemon6fire
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: Luddite]
    #8544933 - 06/20/08 03:36 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Fuck our grandchildren, I need gas thats 50 cents cheaper per gallon.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: Luddite]
    #8544960 - 06/20/08 03:47 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Global warming... the greatest gaff in the history of mankind... what a way for the energy companies to manipulate the market and make astronomical profits... and the best part, anything anybody does to combat the illusion simply helps raise the profit margins even more!  There are some very wicked people laughing all the way to the bank...

> Fuck our grandchildren, I need gas thats 50 cents cheaper per gallon.

I didn't have children because I didn't feel fair dumping our problems on somebody else.  I am old enough that there is little chance that being childless will change.  Sorry, but I don't feel obligated to suffer now so that your grandchildren can have a nice clean place to live.


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: Luddite]
    #8544967 - 06/20/08 03:50 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)




Greens Thwart Gasoline Production
Written by Steven Milloy, foxnews.com   
Thursday, 12 June 2008

Four-plus-dollar gasoline is forcing Americans to realize that we need increased domestic oil production to meet our ever-growing demand for affordable fuel. But even if the greens lose the political battle over drilling offshore and in places like the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, they nevertheless are way ahead of the game as they implement a back-up plan to make sure that not a drop of that oil ever eases our gasoline crunch.

The Sierra Club and the Natural Resources Defense Council, or NRDC, successfully pressured the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency to block ConocoPhillips’ expansion of its Roxana, Ill., gasoline refinery, which processes heavy crude oil from Canada, the Wall Street Journal reported on Monday.

The project would have expanded the volume of Canadian crude processed from 60,000 barrels per day to more than 500,000 barrels a day by 2015. After the Illinois EPA had approved the expansion, the green groups petitioned the federal EPA to block it, alleging ConocoPhillips wasn’t using the best available technology for reducing emissions of sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides.

Apparently, the plant’s planned 95 percent reduction in sulfur dioxide emissions and 25 percent reduction in nitrogen oxides wasn’t green enough. NRDC’s opposition is quite ironic since ConocoPhillips and the activist group actually are teammates in the global warming game. Both belong to the U.S. Climate Action Partnership, a coalition of eco-activist groups and large companies that is lobbying for global warming regulation.

So even though ConocoPhillips is aiding and abetting the NRDC to achieve the green dream of absolute government control over the U.S. energy supply, the enviros still are in take-no-prisoners mode, refusing to allow the expansion of a single refinery.

Imagine what the rest of us can expect from the greens.

Meanwhile, in California, green groups are working through the state attorney general’s office to block the upgrade of the Chevron refinery in the city of Richmond. The $800 million upgrade essentially would expand the useable oil supply by permitting the refinery to process lower-quality, less-expensive crude oil.

California Attorney General, ex-Gov. and climate crusader Jerry Brown claims the upgrade will produce an additional 900,000 tons of greenhouse gas emissions per year. But Chevron says the upgrade actually will reduce the emissions by 220,000 tons.

Whose figure is closer to the truth?

It’s hard to know for sure at this point, but it’s worth noting that material false statements made by Chevron are prosecutable under the federal securities laws and California state law, while Brown and the activists pretty much can say whatever they want without legal accountability.

Whatever the facts are, Brown and the city of Richmond insist that Chevron eliminate 900,000 tons of greenhouse gas emissions so that the upgrade will be "carbon neutral." While the greens remain vehemently opposed to the project, it seems their plans for blocking the refinery might go awry as Brown and the local government eventually may side with Chevron rather than the greens, but only because the company has deep pockets and is open to being shaken down.

Brown and the city have proposed that Chevron ensure that half the total emissions-reduction projects be undertaken on-site at the refinery and the other half be done either in the city of Richmond itself or elsewhere in California.

Translating the latter part of this "offer that can’t be refused:" Chevron essentially must purchase 450,000 tons of "carbon credits" annually from the city of Richmond or the state. As the street value of carbon credits is about $10 per ton, Chevron is being "green-mailed" to the tune of perhaps $4.5 million per year to upgrade its refinery — amounting to perhaps a 1 percent annual "tax" on the gains in gross revenue produced by the upgrade. And the local government officials are not the least embarrassed about this extortion.

"When you’re dealing with a refinery where the project will cost close to a billion dollars and someone like Chevron with tremendous resources, that’s not a constraint, so they should do everything possible," an unidentified state official told Carbon Control News in a June 9 article.

The farcical nature of the entire transaction is underscored by that state official’s apparent lack of understanding about how greenhouse gas-induced global warming is supposed to work.

The official told Carbon Control News that the greenhouse gas emission reductions "are vital to protect low-income minority communities in the Richmond area, which already suffer disproportionate pollution impacts."

Climate alarmism, of course, is based on the notion of global emissions causing global warming, not local emissions causing local warming; moreover, the allegation that low-income minority populations are disproportionately harmed by industrial emissions — the basis of the so-called "environmental justice" concept of the 1990s — hasn’t stuck since no scientific evidence supports it.

Though green and local government shenanigans can be a source of endless amusement, let’s get back to the main point. As the 2005 hurricane season dramatized, oil production, itself, is only one factor in determining gasoline supply and prices.

Damage to Gulf Coast refineries by hurricanes Katrina and Rita reduced gasoline supplies and increased prices worldwide — a real problem given that U.S. refineries operate at or near capacity thanks to other green constraints.

We may produce all the oil we need, but if we can’t refine it, then it won’t do much for reducing gasoline supply problems. So while working to expand domestic drilling, we’ll simultaneously need to expand domestic refining capacity.

It will be quite the Pyrrhic victory to finally produce oil from ANWR and then not be able to do anything with it. 

http://www.climatechangefraud.com/content/view/1379/218/

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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: demon6fire]
    #8544975 - 06/20/08 03:53 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

demon6fire said:
Fuck our grandchildren, I need gas thats 50 cents cheaper per gallon.




logical falicy

$100 a gallon gasoline is unafordable by most families.  The price of oil doubled in a year.  Maybe it'll double again within a year.  More supplies of oil will help reduce the cost.  Conventional oil production is declining in the world.  Maybe in ten years the price of oil will go up a hundred times unless other fossil fuels are used as alternatives.

Edited by Luddite (06/20/08 04:00 PM)

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Invisibledemon6fire
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: Luddite]
    #8544989 - 06/20/08 04:00 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Luddite said:
Quote:

demon6fire said:
Fuck our grandchildren, I need gas thats 50 cents cheaper per gallon.




logical falicy

$100 a gallon gasoline is unafordable by most families.  The price of oil doubled in a year.  Maybe it'll double again within a year.  More supplies of oil will help reduce the cost.



So will less consumption.

Edited by demon6fire (06/20/08 04:01 PM)

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: demon6fire]
    #8545048 - 06/20/08 04:20 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

> So will less consumption.

Unfortunately, consumption has very little to do with oil prices.  This is one of the big problems.


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: Seuss]
    #8545052 - 06/20/08 04:22 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

More Global Warming Nonsense
By PAUL REITER and ROGER BATE
April 10, 2008; Page A14


Today, the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee will hold a hearing on the implications of climate change for human health. Malaria will top the menu, but so will ignorance and disinformation.

The lead witness will be Dr. Jonathan Patz of the University of Wisconsin, Madison. He has suggested that U.S. energy policy may be "indirectly exporting diseases to other parts of the world." Dr. Patz, the World Health Organization (WHO) and others claim that global warming is now spreading disease and may be the cause of some 160,000 deaths a year.

In 2007, for example, WHO pointed to rising temperatures in an outbreak of a mosquito-borne virus, Chikungunya, in Italy. Yet WHO misdiagnosed the problem. Modern transportation, not climate change, caused the outbreak.

In that case, the transmitter of the disease, or vector, was the Asian Tiger mosquito. It is native to Asia, but exported world-wide in shipments of used tires. It is now abundant in parts of U.S. and in 12 countries in Europe. In cities, it breeds in man-made containers of water, such as saucers under flower-pots, water barrels, blocked gutters and so on. The virus was carried to Italy by an infected Indian who flew from Delhi, where an epidemic of the disease was then raging.

So the real technological villain in that case was the jet airplane. It was irresponsible, then, for WHO to state "although it is not possible to say whether the outbreak was caused by climate change . . . conditions in Italy are now suitable for the Tiger mosquito." And it was absurd for environmental alarmists to chime in with apocalyptic pronouncements.

The globalization of vectors and pathogens is a serious problem. But it is not new. The Yellow Fever mosquito and virus were imported into North America from Africa during the slave trade. The dengue virus is distributed throughout the tropics and regularly jumps continents inside air passengers. West Nile virus likely arrived in the U.S. in shipments of wild birds. These diseases are spread by mosquitoes and therefore difficult to quarantine.

It may come as a surprise that malaria was once common in most of Europe and North America. In parts of England, mortality from "the ague" was comparable to that in sub-Saharan Africa today. William Shakespeare was born at the start of the especially cold period that climatologists call the "Little Ice Age," yet he was aware enough of the ravages of the disease to mention it in eight of his plays.

Malaria disappeared from much of Western Europe during the second half of the 19th century. Changes in agriculture, living conditions and a drop in the price of quinine, a cure still used today, all helped eradicate it. However, in some regions it persisted until the insecticide DDT wiped it out. Temperate Holland was not certified malaria-free by the WHO until 1970.

The concept of malaria as a "tropical" infection is nonsense. It is a disease of the poor. Alarmists in the richest countries peddle the notion that the increase in malaria in poor countries is due to global warming and that this will eventually cause malaria to spread to areas that were "previously malaria free." That's a misrepresentation of the facts and disingenuous when packaged with opposition to the cheapest and best insecticide to combat malaria – DDT.

It is true that malaria has been increasing at an alarming rate in parts of Africa and elsewhere in the world. Scientists ascribe this increase to many factors, including population growth, deforestation, rice cultivation in previously uncultivated upland marshes, clustering of populations around these marshes, and large numbers of people who have fled their homes because of civil strife. The evolution of drug-resistant parasites and insecticide-resistant mosquitoes, and the cessation of mosquito-control operations are also factors.

Of course, temperature is a factor in the transmission of mosquito-borne diseases, and future incidence may be affected if the world's climate continues to warm. But throughout history the most critical factors in the spread or eradication of disease has been human behavior (shifting population centers, changing farming methods and the like) and living standards. Poverty has been and remains the world's greatest killer.

Serious scientists rarely engage in public quarrels. Alarmists are therefore often unopposed in offering simplicity in place of complexity, ideology in place of scientific dialogue, and emotion in place of dry perspective. The alarmists will likely steal the show on Capitol Hill today. But anyone truly worried about malaria in impoverished countries would do well to focus on improving human living conditions, not the weather.

Mr. Reiter is director of the Insects and Infectious Diseases Unit of the Institut Pasteur, Paris. Mr. Bate is a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.

See all of today's editorials and op-eds, plus video commentary, on Opinion Journal.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120778860618203531.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries

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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: Luddite]
    #8545108 - 06/20/08 04:44 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Oil Exporters Are Unable To Keep Up With Demand
http://royaldutchshellplc.com/2008/05/29/oil-exporters-are-unable-to-keep-up-with-demand/



There's a list of articles about coal here, many of them discussing the insidious global warming paranoia and how the niave elitists think we're too good for coal. 

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Journalists_covering_coal

Of course, they say nothing about alternatives and seem to imply there's some hidden utopian unlimited source of energy out there without any problems whatsoever. Which leads me to this article:


Enviro Mentalists Call For Culling Of Human Population
Push for Malthusian social control policies in name of curbing carbon emissions

Steve Watson
Prison Planet
Monday, May 7, 2007

A disturbing move is afoot by several "green" groups to associate climate change with over population and suggest that the solution is to implement depopulation policies and punishments for those who flout them.

more here http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/may2007/070507depopulation.htm

Edited by Luddite (06/20/08 04:45 PM)

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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: Luddite]
    #8545860 - 06/20/08 10:36 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

The high price of oil is not a temporary thing. It will probably never go below $100/barrel. That's why OPEC is meeting in Saudi Arabia this weekend for crisis talks; the Saudis are getting hurt by the high prices. That alone should tell you that things have fundamentally changed.


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I know... that just the smallest
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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: zouden]
    #8546566 - 06/21/08 06:02 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

> The high price of oil is not a temporary thing.

The high price of oil is completely artificial... follow the profits and you will quickly figure out who and why oil is artificially inflated.  'Speculation' is only part of it...


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Invisiblewisp

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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: Seuss]
    #8546619 - 06/21/08 06:36 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Please tell me you are joking when you say that global warming is a gaff.

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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: Seuss]
    #8546890 - 06/21/08 09:21 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

But that's the thing, the price isn't completely artificial because it's affected by real-world factors like yield of new fields, refinery capacity etc. Speculation is making the situation worse, but that doesn't change the fact that the latest new fields are of much lower capacity than what we used to expect from a new field. And the big old fields are drying up. There's nothing about the situation that suggests the price of oil will go down again for any meaningful length of time, and all indicators suggest the price will continue to rise.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: zouden]
    #8547664 - 06/21/08 02:14 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

> Please tell me you are joking when you say that global warming is a gaff.

I'm not talking about the science of climatology or the warming of the planet.  I'm using the term "global warming" with a cynical voice to describe the people that profit from 'the sky is falling' alarmist propaganda.  The term "global warming" has been hijacked by the eco-terrorist crowd and no longer has anything to do with science; hence my calling it a gaff.  (My argument is based on semantics... replace global warming with dynamic climate change any my gripe goes away.  Rather petty, I know...)


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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: Seuss]
    #8548487 - 06/21/08 07:08 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

What about "anthropogenic climate change"?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: zouden]
    #8548510 - 06/21/08 07:15 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I'm fond of that term. It's quite appropriate.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: zouden]
    #8549809 - 06/22/08 04:29 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

> What about "anthropogenic climate change"?

Difficult to know as the "science" has been polluted by politics.  As with the war on drugs, when politics gets involved, ethics seem to go out the window (ethics or funding, which do I choose), as people do or say whatever "politics" want in order to get funding, publications, fame, etc.

I know what I think about "anthropogenic climate change", but I am not an expert in the field, and my opinion could easily be wrong, thus it is pretty irrelevant.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: Seuss]
    #8549888 - 06/22/08 05:38 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

It hasn't always been polluted by politics. I remember learning about it 15 years ago, before the politicians and media had even heard about it. I don't think the arguments in favour of it are any weaker now.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: zouden]
    #8549939 - 06/22/08 06:14 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Global Warming Petition Project

31,072 American scientists have signed this petition, including 9,021 with PhDs

We urge the United States government to reject the global warming agreement that was written in Kyoto, Japan in December, 1997, and any other similar proposals.  The proposed limits on greenhouse gases would harm the environment, hinder the advance of science and technology, and damage the health and welfare of mankind.

There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gases is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere and disruption of the Earth's climate.  Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many benficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the Earth.


http://www.petitionproject.org/


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: Luddite]
    #8551643 - 06/22/08 06:37 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I saw Robert Hirsch on CNBC recently.  He thinks oil could get to $500/barrel in five years.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hirsch_(energy_advisor)

http://globalpublicmedia.com/interviews/615

http://tinyurl.com/5jzvfk

Robert Hirsch on peak oil: "This problem is truly frightening. This problem is like nothing that I have ever seen in my lifetime, and the more you think about it and the more you look at the numbers, the more uneasy any observer gets. It's so easy to sound alarmist, and I fear that part of what I'm saying may sound alarmist, but there simply is no question that the risks here are beyond anything that any of us have ever dealt with. And the risks to our economies and our civilization are enormous."

Edited by Luddite (06/22/08 06:39 PM)

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Invisibledemon6fire
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: Luddite]
    #8551892 - 06/22/08 07:53 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Not releasing greenhouse gases will hurt the environment?  Um what?

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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: zouden]
    #8551915 - 06/22/08 07:58 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

15 years ago the ozone layer was the bandwagon.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: DieCommie]
    #8551934 - 06/22/08 08:03 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

And we banned CFCs, and the hole started shrinking. The ozone layer is one of environmentalism's biggest success stories.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: zouden]
    #8552023 - 06/22/08 08:29 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

So the ozone layer is fixed now?  I never knew.  I sure got a lot of lectures about it in school as a kid.  Glad it worked.

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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: zouden]
    #8552129 - 06/22/08 09:00 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

how big was the 'hole' in the ozone layer?  How do you measure it, with a ruler or tape measure?  Isn't the layer invisible?

peace

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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: supra]
    #8552283 - 06/22/08 09:52 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

It was a Big Deal here in Australia because it increased skin cancer rates - the hole is over the antarctic. New Zealand suffered even worse because they're further south.

We used to see images of the ozone hole in the news. It fluctuates with the seasons.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: zouden]
    #8552508 - 06/22/08 11:04 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

back to the topic, this seems strange.

Is this guy really this crass, or is the article just terrible?

Is the guy really saying he doesn't want the plant cuz it will contribute to carbon dioxide output, or was there some reason such as poor efficiency?

If it was an absolutist stance, not related to efficiency, the decision seems insane.

Where else is the power going to come from?  This is like quitting your job when your broke, and then bitching when you can't find another job for twenty years... what the hell is he thinking?

My appologies if the decision was based on more rational grounds such as efficiency or something and this guy is just an idiot.


This does illustrate the problem when government regulators get involved with private property, however.


If someone wants to build shit on their land, what the hell buisness is it of the government?

These actions should be brought by private plaintiffs that will be adversely affected.

Fuck the police state that can tell folks they can't build shit on their own property.

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Offlinesupra
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: zouden]
    #8554282 - 06/23/08 12:41 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
It was a Big Deal here in Australia because it increased skin cancer rates - the hole is over the antarctic. New Zealand suffered even worse because they're further south.

We used to see images of the ozone hole in the news. It fluctuates with the seasons.





great image man, thanks for the explanation!!

peace

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: zouden]
    #8554511 - 06/23/08 01:46 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

> And we banned CFCs, and the hole started shrinking.

Too bad that isn't true... well, the second half isn't true...

"From September 21-30, 2006 the average area of the ozone hole was the largest ever observed, at 10.6 million square miles." Souce: http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/lookingatearth/ozone_record.html

The ozone "problem" is so 1980s... global warming and CO2 is where it is today.


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: Seuss]
    #8554974 - 06/23/08 04:13 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Ah ha!  Maybe its the thin ozone layer that's causing the glaciers to melt and not the CO2.  The enviro-commies think they have a better chance at controlling our use of carbon, but we can't let them.

Edited by Luddite (06/23/08 04:15 PM)

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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: Luddite]
    #8555025 - 06/23/08 04:29 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

From further down the page on that very same article:
Quote:

As a result of the Montreal Protocol and its amendments, the concentrations of ozone-depleting substances in the lower atmosphere (troposphere) peaked around 1995 and are decreasing in both the troposphere and stratosphere. It is estimated these gases reached peak levels in the Antarctica stratosphere in 2001. However, these ozone-depleting substances typically have very long lifetimes in the atmosphere (more than 40 years).

As a result of this slow decline, the ozone hole is estimated to annually very slowly decrease in area by about 0.1 to 0.2 percent for the next five to 10 years. This slow decrease is masked by large year-to-year variations caused by Antarctic stratosphere weather fluctuations.

The recently completed 2006 World Meteorological Organization/United Nations Environment Programme Scientific Assessment of Ozone Depletion concluded the ozone hole recovery would be masked by annual variability for the near future and the ozone hole would fully recover in approximately 2065.




--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: zouden]
    #8555204 - 06/23/08 05:15 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

So the prediction is that it will be fixed, but right now it is as big as it has ever been.  But in the future it will be fixed. 2065 huh?  I wonder what the error bars are on that calculation.

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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: DieCommie]
    #8559498 - 06/24/08 06:55 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

After watching Robert Hirsch on youtube watch this.  I knew the peak oil problem was coming, but I didn't think energy prices would be rising as fast as they are now.  I didn't think there'd be so many homes in foreclosure at this time either.  Its not just peak oil, its lack of fiscal responsibility. 





http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=soylent+green&search_type=&aq=f

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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: Luddite]
    #8577113 - 06/29/08 12:11 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Climate Change - Has it been cancelled?       

Professor Bob Carter from James Cook University in Queensland, talks to Nzone Tonight's Allan Lee about how ordinary people can try and find out the truth about Climate Change and global warming.

http://www.climatechangefraud.com/content/view/1271/218/

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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: Luddite]
    #8584606 - 07/01/08 04:04 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Georgia court cites carbon in coal-plant ruling

HOUSTON (Reuters) - A Georgia state court on Monday invalidated a permit to build a 1,200-megawatt coal-fired power plant, citing the developers' failure to limit emissions of carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas blamed for global warming.

An environmental group immediately praised the decision, predicting it would lead to reconsideration of many coal-fired power plants under development in the country.

The order, from Fulton County Superior Court Judge Thelma Wyatt Cummings Moore, reversed an air permit issued earlier this year by the Georgia Department of Natural Resources to Longleaf Energy Resources, a joint venture of Houston-based Dynegy Inc and LS Power Group.

The judge disagreed with regulators' action to reject carbon dioxide as a pollutant that is subject to regulation under the Clean Air Act, citing a 2007 U.S. Supreme Court decision.

In that order, the Supreme Court said carbon dioxide is a pollutant under the existing federal law.

A Dynegy spokesman said the company was reviewing the ruling and had no comment on the future of the project, a traditional, pulverized coal plant to be built in Early County, Georgia.

The Sierra Club, which is fighting construction of many new coal plants, along with Friends of the Chattahoochee Inc, challenged the Longleaf air permit, which put no restrictions on the expected emissions of 8-million-plus tons of carbon dioxide.

"This is the first court of any stripe to interpret the Supreme Court's ruling as it applies to coal-burning power plants," said Bruce Nilles, director of the Sierra Club's national coal campaign.

Nilles likened the importance of the Georgia court ruling to Kansas Governor Kathleen Sebelius' decision last year to reject a new coal plant in that state on grounds that global warming is a public health threat.

"In one swift decision, it changes the debate around global warming regulation in the United States because it now means that every coal plant has to consider its CO2 impacts," Nilles said.

The Sierra Club hopes the ruling will accelerate the debate to create a strong federal bill to protect the climate, Nilles said.

(Reporting by Eileen O'Grady in Houston and Bernie Woodall in Los Angeles; Editing by Christian Wiessner)

http://in.reuters.com/article/environmentNews/idINN3044042020080630?sp=true

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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: Luddite]
    #8584697 - 07/01/08 04:26 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

They'd be better off building a 1200-megawatt nuclear power plant.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: zouden]
    #8584730 - 07/01/08 04:33 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Its too expensive and takes a lot longer to build.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: Luddite]
    #8584747 - 07/01/08 04:35 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Then they should have started building them years ago! There's been no new nuclear power plants built anywhere in the world in the last two decades. Ridiculous.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleNaturalHypnosis
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: wisp]
    #8590510 - 07/03/08 04:54 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

tripsis said:
Please tell me you are joking when you say that global warming is a gaff.




exactly what i've been told !!!

massive manipulated hype games about when will the oil run out, what will happen etc.. hysteria & panic & raise those prices again - cat & mouse

of course the earths blood will be sucked completely dry One-day... but not for along time & these god playing companies like SHELL will scratch out every cent & then they will finally give us their water powered car which does god knows how many miles to 1 LITRE of water [600 ?]

it's beyond a joke now - but i suppose it well maybe help wake us all up from this dream


--------------------
A Trance is a trance is a trance

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Zealot blocks coal power plant permits [Re: NaturalHypnosis]
    #8590596 - 07/03/08 05:42 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Of course the world won't completely run out of oil. But it's running out of cheap oil. As the price goes up, it becomes economical to extract oil out of tar sands and shale, so the supply will continue - but prices won't come down. In fact they'll continue to go up as demand increases far faster than supply does.

And your comment about Shell holding on to a water powered car? Now THAT is a joke. This is a serious topic but if you believe stuff like that you'll never have a hope of understanding what's going on.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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