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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics
    #8543427 - 06/20/08 05:01 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Nope. These are not my reasons, but actual quotes. Of course, every single one denies Christ's teachings of faith, healing and wellness, but what the heck, got to make excuses to keep the delusion going.

1. The Lord does not send us things we can not handle.

2. God is using my diabetes to help lead others to him.

3. I think that I have a purpose in my diabetes.

4. It is God's will.

5. Living with diabetes has made my faith stronger.

6. God used that time (multiple hospitilizations for diabetic complications) to show me that I needed to take Him more seriously.

7. He (God) certain(ly) can heal us but He uses these things (diabetic illness) in our lives to help us grow, learn and glorify Him.



I won't even mention that diabetes is higher in the Bible Belt and in Baptists in particular. Oops! I just mentioned it, didn't I?  Bad OC. :mad2:


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OfflineChemy
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8543488 - 06/20/08 06:56 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I won't even mention that diabetes is higher in the Bible Belt and in Baptists in particular.



Well, there is no reason to eat healthy for good health and a long life when there is no reason to fear death, after all they're just going to heaven when they die.


--------------------
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Narcotics Anonymous

Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!

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InvisibleQuantumReality
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Chemy]
    #8543539 - 06/20/08 07:22 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

yes there is, to live long and gain as much relevant information as possible

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OfflineChemy
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: QuantumReality]
    #8543551 - 06/20/08 07:31 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Dizzwizzle said:
yes there is, to live long and gain as much relevant information as possible



Oh ok, I'll change my religious status from Baptist to Atheist and start eating healthy, thanks.

Isn't it a popular Christian belief that when we die we learn the secrets to the mystery of Gods creation.
So my point still stands, why even bother live, why not commit suicide and learn the secrets of the universe and go to Heaven, what is the point of living? Might as well eat those fast food burgers, fries and sodas.


--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous

Narcotics Anonymous

Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!

Edited by Chemy (06/20/08 07:40 AM)

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Chemy]
    #8543562 - 06/20/08 07:37 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I am totally stupefied by Christians. Which part is difficult for them to grok:

Premise: Jesus can heal any illness for those who have faith in him.

Christians claim to believe in Jesus.

Christian health is somewhat worse than atheists/agnostics which is TOTALLY counter to the premise.

Where is the cognizant dissonance?


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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8543589 - 06/20/08 07:58 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:dontspillme:


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Edited by blewmeanie (01/23/10 02:32 PM)

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OfflinePlatinum
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8543621 - 06/20/08 08:29 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Christian health is somewhat worse than atheists/agnostics which is TOTALLY counter to the premise.





I am not saying you are wrong, but where does this fact come from? Your argument is based on the fact that this statement is true, but provide no proof regarding its accuracy.

I hope there is proof to this statement, because I would love to use this argument with people. :thumbup:

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Platinum]
    #8543739 - 06/20/08 09:26 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Source: Bibliography located at the bottom of the page here.

And for those who dont like to read, here is a short compilation, although it isnt anywhere near as complete.



Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies

A First Look

Gregory S. Paul
Baltimore, Maryland

Introduction

[1] Two centuries ago there was relatively little dispute over the existence of God, or the societally beneficial effect of popular belief in a creator. In the twentieth century extensive secularization occurred in western nations, the United States being the only significant exception (Bishop; Bruce; Gill et al.; Sommerville). If religion has receded in some western nations, what is the impact of this unprecedented transformation upon their populations? Theists often assert that popular belief in a creator is instrumental towards providing the moral, ethical and other foundations necessary for a healthy, cohesive society. Many also contend that widespread acceptance of evolution, and/or denial of a creator, is contrary to these goals. But a cross-national study verifying these claims has yet to be published. That radically differing worldviews can have measurable impact upon societal conditions is plausible according to a number of mainstream researchers (Bainbridge; Barro; Barro and McCleary; Beeghley; Groeneman and Tobin; Huntington; Inglehart and Baker; Putman; Stark and Bainbridge). Agreement with the hypothesis that belief in a creator is beneficial to societies is largely based on assumption, anecdotal accounts, and on studies of limited scope and quality restricted to one population (Benson et al.; Hummer et al.; Idler and Kasl; Stark and Bainbridge). A partial exception is given by Barro and McCleary, who correlated economic growth with rates of belief in the afterlife and church attendance in numerous nations (while Kasman and Reid [2004] commented that Europe does not appear to be suffering unduly from its secularization). It is surprising that a more systematic examination of the question has not been previously executed since the factors required to do so are in place. The twentieth century acted, for the first time in human history, as a vast Darwinian global societal experiment in which a wide variety of dramatically differing social-religious-political-economic systems competed with one another, with varying degrees of success. A quantitative cross-national analysis is feasible because a large body of survey and census data on rates of religiosity, secularization, and societal indicators has become available in the prosperous developed democracies including the United States.

[2] This study is a first, brief look at an important subject that has been almost entirely neglected by social scientists. The primary intent is to present basic correlations of the elemental data. Some conclusions that can be gleaned from the plots are outlined. This is not an attempt to present a definitive study that establishes cause versus effect between religiosity, secularism and societal health. It is hoped that these original correlations and results will spark future research and debate on the issue.

The Belief that Religiosity is Socially Beneficial

[3] As he helped initiate the American experiment Benjamin Franklin stated that “religion will be a powerful regulator of our actions, give us peace and tranquility within our minds, and render us benevolent, useful and beneficial to others” (Isaacson: 87-88). When the theory of biological evolution removed the need for a supernatural creator concerns immediately arose over the societal implications of widespread abandonment of faith (Desmond and Moore; Numbers). In 1880 the religious moralist Dostoyevsky penned the famous warning that “if God does not exist, then everything is permissible.” Even so, in Europe the issue has not been a driving focus of public and political dispute, especially since the world wars.

[4] Although its proponents often claim that anti-evolution creationism<1> is scientific, it has abjectly failed in the practical realms of mainstream science and hi-tech industry (Ayala et al.; Crews; Cziko; Dawkins, 1996, 1997; Dennett; Gould; Koza et al.; L. Lane; Miller; Paul and Cox; Shanks; Wise; Young and Edis). The continuing popularity of creationism in America indicates that it is in reality a theistic social-political movement partly driven by concerns over the societal consequences of disbelief in a creator (Forrest and Gross; Numbers). The person most responsible for politicizing the issue in America, evangelical Christian W. J. Bryan,<2> expressed relatively little interest in evolution until the horrors of WW I inspired him to blame the scientific revolution that invented chemical warfare and other modern ills for “preaching that man has a brute ancestry and eliminating the miraculous and the supernatural from the Bible” (Numbers: 178).

[5] In the United States many conservative theists consider evolutionary science a leading contributor to social dysfunction because it is amoral or worse, and because it inspires disbelief in a moral creator (Colson and Pearcey; Eve and Harrold; Johnson; Numbers; Pearcey; Schroeder). The original full title for the creationist Discovery Institute was the Discovery Institute for the Renewal of Science and Culture (a title still applied to a division), and the institute’s mission challenges “materialism on specifically scientific grounds” with the intent of reversing “some of materialism’s destructive cultural consequences.” The strategy for achieving these goals is the “wedge” strategy to insert intelligent design creationism into mainstream academe and subsequently destroy Darwinian science (Johnson; Forrest and Gross note this effort is far behind schedule). The Discovery Institute and the less conservative, even more lavishly funded pro-theistic Templeton Foundation fund research into the existence and positive societal influence of a creator (Harris et al.; Holden). In 2000 the Discovery Institute held a neocreationist seminar for members of Congress (Applegate). Politically and socially powerful conservatives have deliberately worked to elevate popular concerns over a field of scientific and industrial research to such a level that it qualifies as a major societal fear factor. The current House majority leader T. DeLay contends that high crime rates and tragedies like the Columbine assault will continue as long schools teach children “that they are nothing but glorified apes who have evolutionized [sic] out of some primordial soup of mud” (DeLay and Dawson). Today’s leaders of the world’s largest Christian denomination, the Catholic Church, share a dim view of the social impact of evolution. In his inauguration speech, Benedict XVI lauded the benefits of belief in a creator and contended, “we are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution.” A leading church cleric and theologian (Schonborn) proclaimed that “the overwhelming evidence for purpose and design” refutes the mindless creation of Darwinian natural selection (also Dean, Dean and Goodstein).

[6] Agreement with the hypothesis that popular religiosity is societally advantageous is not limited to those opposed to evolutionary science, or to conservatives. The basic thesis can be held by anyone who believes in a benign creator regardless of the proposed mode of creation, or the believer’s social-political worldview. In broad terms the hypothesis that popular religiosity is socially beneficial holds that high rates of belief in a creator, as well as worship, prayer and other aspects of religious practice, correlate with lowering rates of lethal violence, suicide, non-monogamous sexual activity, and abortion, as well as improved physical health. Such faith-based, virtuous “cultures of life” are supposedly attainable if people believe that God created them for a special purpose, and follow the strict moral dictates imposed by religion. At one end of the spectrum are those who consider creator belief helpful but not necessarily critical to individuals and societies. At the other end the most ardent advocates consider persons and people inherently unruly and ungovernable unless they are strictly obedient to the creator (as per Barna; Colson and Pearcey; Johnson; Pearcey; Schroeder). Barro labels societal advantages that are associated with religiosity “spiritual capital,” an extension of Putman’s concept of “social capital.” The corresponding view that western secular materialism leads to “cultures of death” is the official opinion of the Papacy, which claims, “the proabortion culture is especially strong precisely where the Church’s teaching on contraception is rejected” (John Paul II). In the United States popular support for the cultural and moral superiority of theism is so extensive that popular disbelief in God ranks as another major societal fear factor.

[7] The media (Stepp) gave favorable coverage to a report that children are hardwired towards, and benefit from, accepting the existence of a divine creator on an epidemiological and neuro-scientific basis (Benson et al.). Also covered widely was a Federal report that the economic growth of nations positively responds to high rates of belief in hell and heaven.<3> Faith-based charities and education are promoted by the Bush administration<4> and religious allies and lobbies as effective means of addressing various social problems (Aronson; Goodstein). The conservative Family Research Council proclaims, “believing that God is the author of life, liberty and the family, FRC promotes the Judeo-Christian worldview as the basis for a just, free and stable society.” Towards the liberal end of the political spectrum presidential candidate Al Gore supported teaching both creationism and evolution, his running mate Joe Leiberman asserted that belief in a creator is instrumental to “secure the moral future of our nation, and raise the quality of life for all our people,” and presidential candidate John Kerry emphasized his religious values in the latter part of his campaign.

[8] With surveys showing a strong majority from conservative to liberal believing that religion is beneficial for society and for individuals, many Americans agree that their church-going nation is an exceptional, God blessed, “shining city on the hill” that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly skeptical world. But in the other developed democracies religiosity continues to decline precipitously and avowed atheists often win high office, even as clergies warn about adverse societal consequences if a revival of creator belief does not occur (Reid, 2001).

Procedures and Primary Data Sources

[9] Levels of religious and nonreligious belief and practice, and indicators of societal health and dysfunction, have been most extensively and reliably surveyed in the prosperous developed democracies (Figures 1-9). Similar data is often lacking for second and third world nations, or is less reliable. The cultural and economic similarity of the developed democracies minimizes the variability of factors outside those being examined. The approximately 800 million mostly middle class adults and children act as a massive epidemiological experiment that allows hypotheses that faith in a creator or disbelief in evolution improves or degrades societal conditions to be tested on an international scale. The extent of this data makes it potentially superior to results based on much smaller sample sizes. Data is from the 1990s, most from the middle and latter half of the decade, or the early 2000s.

[10] Data sources for rates of religious belief and practice as well as acceptance of evolution are the 1993 Environment I (Bishop) and 1998 Religion II polls conducted by the International Social Survey Program (ISSP), a cross-national collaboration on social science surveys using standard methodologies that currently involves 38 nations. The last survey interviewed approximately 23,000 people in almost all (17) of the developed democracies; Portugal is also plotted as an example of a second world European democracy. Results for western and eastern Germany are combined following the regions’ populations. England is generally Great Britain excluding Northern Ireland; Holland is all of the Netherlands. The results largely agree with national surveys on the same subjects; for example, both ISSP and Gallup indicate that absolute plus less certain believers in a higher power are about 90% of the U.S. population. The plots include Bible literalism and frequency of prayer and service attendance, as well as absolute belief in a creator, in order to examine religiosity in terms of ardency, conservatism, and activities. Self-reported rates of religious attendance and practice may be significantly higher than actual rates (Marler and Hadaway), but the data is useful for relative comparisons, especially when it parallels results on religious belief. The high rates of church attendance reported for the Swiss appear anomalous compared to their modest levels of belief and prayer.

[11] Data on aspects of societal health and dysfunction are from a variety of well-documented sources including the UN Development Programme (2000). Homicide is the best indicator of societal violence because of the extremity of the act and its unique contribution to levels of societal fear, plus the relatively reliable nature of the data (Beeghley; Neapoletan). Youth suicide (WHO) was examined in order to avoid cultural issues related to age and terminal illness. Data on STDs, teen pregnancy and birth (Panchaud et al.; Singh and Darroch) were accepted only if the compilers concluded that they were not seriously underreported, except for the U.S. where under reporting does not exaggerate disparities with the other developed democracies because they would only close the gaps. Teen pregnancy was examined in a young age class in which marriage is infrequent. Abortion data (Panchaud et al.) was accepted only from those nations in which it is as approximately legal and available as in the U.S. In order to minimize age related factors, rates of dysfunction were plotted within youth cohorts when possible.

[12] Regression analyses were not executed because of the high variability of degree of correlation, because potential causal factors for rates of societal function are complex, and because it is not the purpose of this initial study to definitively demonstrate a causal link between religion and social conditions. Nor were multivariate analyses used because they risk manipulating the data to produce errant or desired results,<5> and because the fairly consistent characteristics of the sample automatically minimizes the need to correct for external multiple factors (see further discussion below). Therefore correlations of raw data are used for this initial examination.

Results

[13] Among the developed democracies absolute belief in God, attendance of religious services and Bible literalism vary over a dozenfold, atheists and agnostics five fold, prayer rates fourfold, and acceptance of evolution almost twofold. Japan, Scandinavia, and France are the most secular nations in the west, the United States is the only prosperous first world nation to retain rates of religiosity otherwise limited to the second and third worlds (Bishop; PEW). Prosperous democracies where religiosity is low (which excludes the U.S.) are referred to below as secular developed democracies.

[14] Correlations between popular acceptance of human evolution and belief in and worship of a creator and Bible literalism are negative (Figure 1). The least religious nation, Japan, exhibits the highest agreement with the scientific theory, the lowest level of acceptance is found in the most religious developed democracy, the U.S.

[15] A few hundred years ago rates of homicide were astronomical in Christian Europe and the American colonies (Beeghley; R. Lane). In all secular developed democracies a centuries long-term trend has seen homicide rates drop to historical lows (Figure 2). The especially low rates in the more Catholic European states are statistical noise due to yearly fluctuations incidental to this sample, and are not consistently present in other similar tabulations (Barcley and Tavares). Despite a significant decline from a recent peak in the 1980s (Rosenfeld), the U.S. is the only prosperous democracy that retains high homicide rates, making it a strong outlier in this regard (Beeghley; Doyle, 2000). Similarly, theistic Portugal also has rates of homicides well above the secular developed democracy norm. Mass student murders in schools are rare, and have subsided somewhat since the 1990s, but the U.S. has experienced many more (National School Safety Center) than all the secular developed democracies combined. Other prosperous democracies do not significantly exceed the U.S. in rates of nonviolent and in non-lethal violent crime (Beeghley; Farrington and Langan; Neapoletan), and are often lower in this regard. The United States exhibits typical rates of youth suicide (WHO), which show little if any correlation with theistic factors in the prosperous democracies (Figure 3). The positive correlation between pro-theistic factors and juvenile mortality is remarkable, especially regarding absolute belief, and even prayer (Figure 4). Life spans tend to decrease as rates of religiosity rise (Figure 5), especially as a function of absolute belief. Denmark is the only exception. Unlike questionable small-scale epidemiological studies by Harris et al. and Koenig and Larson, higher rates of religious affiliation, attendance, and prayer do not result in lower juvenile-adult mortality rates on a cross-national basis.<6>

[16] Although the late twentieth century STD epidemic has been curtailed in all prosperous democracies (Aral and Holmes; Panchaud et al.), rates of adolescent gonorrhea infection remain six to three hundred times higher in the U.S. than in less theistic, pro-evolution secular developed democracies (Figure 6). At all ages levels are higher in the U.S., albeit by less dramatic amounts. The U.S. also suffers from uniquely high adolescent and adult syphilis infection rates, which are starting to rise again as the microbe’s resistance increases (Figure 7). The two main curable STDs have been nearly eliminated in strongly secular Scandinavia. Increasing adolescent abortion rates show positive correlation with increasing belief and worship of a creator, and negative correlation with increasing non-theism and acceptance of evolution; again rates are uniquely high in the U.S. (Figure 8). Claims that secular cultures aggravate abortion rates (John Paul II) are therefore contradicted by the quantitative data. Early adolescent pregnancy and birth have dropped in the developed democracies (Abma et al.; Singh and Darroch), but rates are two to dozens of times higher in the U.S. where the decline has been more modest (Figure 9). Broad correlations between decreasing theism and increasing pregnancy and birth are present, with Austria and especially Ireland being partial exceptions. Darroch et al. found that age of first intercourse, number of sexual partners and similar issues among teens do not exhibit wide disparity or a consistent pattern among the prosperous democracies they sampled, including the U.S. A detailed comparison of sexual practices in France and the U.S. observed little difference except that the French tend - contrary to common impression - to be somewhat more conservative (Gagnon et al.).

Discussion

[17] The absence of exceptions to the negative correlation between absolute belief in a creator and acceptance of evolution, plus the lack of a significant religious revival in any developed democracy where evolution is popular, cast doubt on the thesis that societies can combine high rates of both religiosity and agreement with evolutionary science. Such an amalgamation may not be practical. By removing the need for a creator evolutionary science made belief optional. When deciding between supernatural and natural causes is a matter of opinion large numbers are likely to opt for the latter. Western nations are likely to return to the levels of popular religiosity common prior to the 1900s only in the improbable event that naturalistic evolution is scientifically overturned in favor of some form of creationist natural theology that scientifically verifies the existence of a creator. Conversely, evolution will probably not enjoy strong majority support in the U.S. until religiosity declines markedly.

[18] In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies (Figures 1-9). The most theistic prosperous democracy, the U.S., is exceptional, but not in the manner Franklin predicted. The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developed democracies, sometimes spectacularly so, and almost always scores poorly. The view of the U.S. as a “shining city on the hill” to the rest of the world is falsified when it comes to basic measures of societal health. Youth suicide is an exception to the general trend because there is not a significant relationship between it and religious or secular factors. No democracy is known to have combined strong religiosity and popular denial of evolution with high rates of societal health. Higher rates of non-theism and acceptance of human evolution usually correlate with lower rates of dysfunction, and the least theistic nations are usually the least dysfunctional. None of the strongly secularized, pro-evolution democracies is experiencing high levels of measurable dysfunction. In some cases the highly religious U.S. is an outlier in terms of societal dysfunction from less theistic but otherwise socially comparable secular developed democracies. In other cases, the correlations are strongly graded, sometimes outstandingly so.

[19] If the data showed that the U.S. enjoyed higher rates of societal health than the more secular, pro-evolution democracies, then the opinion that popular belief in a creator is strongly beneficial to national cultures would be supported. Although they are by no means utopias, the populations of secular democracies are clearly able to govern themselves and maintain societal cohesion. Indeed, the data examined in this study demonstrates that only the more secular, pro-evolution democracies have, for the first time in history, come closest to achieving practical “cultures of life” that feature low rates of lethal crime, juvenile-adult mortality, sex related dysfunction, and even abortion. The least theistic secular developed democracies such as Japan, France, and Scandinavia have been most successful in these regards. The non-religious, pro-evolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator. The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted. Contradicting these conclusions requires demonstrating a positive link between theism and societal conditions in the first world with a similarly large body of data - a doubtful possibility in view of the observable trends.

Conclusion

[20] The United States’ deep social problems are all the more disturbing because the nation enjoys exceptional per capita wealth among the major western nations (Barro and McCleary; Kasman; PEW; UN Development Programme, 2000, 2004). Spending on health care is much higher as a portion of the GDP and per capita, by a factor of a third to two or more, than in any other developed democracy (UN Development Programme, 2000, 2004). The U.S. is therefore the least efficient western nation in terms of converting wealth into cultural and physical health. Understanding the reasons for this failure is urgent, and doing so requires considering the degree to which cause versus effect is responsible for the observed correlations between social conditions and religiosity versus secularism. It is therefore hoped that this initial look at a subject of pressing importance will inspire more extensive research on the subject. Pressing questions include the reasons, whether theistic or non-theistic, that the exceptionally wealthy U.S. is so inefficient that it is experiencing a much higher degree of societal distress than are less religious, less wealthy prosperous democracies. Conversely, how do the latter achieve superior societal health while having little in the way of the religious values or institutions? There is evidence that within the U.S. strong disparities in religious belief versus acceptance of evolution are correlated with similarly varying rates of societal dysfunction, the strongly theistic, anti-evolution south and mid-west having markedly worse homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy, marital and related problems than the northeast where societal conditions, secularization, and acceptance of evolution approach European norms (Aral and Holmes; Beeghley, Doyle, 2002). It is the responsibility of the research community to address controversial issues and provide the information that the citizens of democracies need to chart their future courses.

Figures (return)

Indicators of societal dysfunction and health as functions of percentage rates of theistic and non-theistic belief and practice in 17 first world developed democracies and one second world democracy. ISSP questions asked: I know God really exists and I have no doubt about it = absolutely believe in God; 2-3 times a month + once a week or more = attend religious services at least several times a month; several times a week - several times a day = pray at least several times a week; the Bible is the actual word of God and it is to be taken literally, word for word = Bible literalists; human beings [have] developed from earlier species of animals = accept human evolution; I don’t know whether there is a God and I don’t believe there is a way to find out + I don’t believe in God = agnostics and other atheists.


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OfflineBoneMan
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8543758 - 06/20/08 09:31 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Why can't people just accept that mostly everything just happens for no reason.

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: BoneMan]
    #8543760 - 06/20/08 09:32 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Such as?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: BoneMan]
    #8543769 - 06/20/08 09:34 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

BoneMan said:
Why can't people just accept that mostly everything just happens for no reason.




Because there is no reason to accept it?


--------------------
:redpanda:
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I wouldn't fear
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8543791 - 06/20/08 09:40 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Wow!  Great article!  Thanks so much for posting this. :smile:

Quote:

There is evidence that within the U.S. strong disparities in religious belief versus acceptance of evolution are correlated with similarly varying rates of societal dysfunction, the strongly theistic, anti-evolution south and mid-west having markedly worse homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy, marital and related problems than the northeast where societal conditions, secularization, and acceptance of evolution approach European norms.




:thumbup:

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Chemy]
    #8543797 - 06/20/08 09:42 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Chemy said:
Quote:

Dizzwizzle said:
yes there is, to live long and gain as much relevant information as possible



Oh ok, I'll change my religious status from Baptist to Atheist and start eating healthy, thanks.





Ok...
So you think that just because your "Baptist" and not afraid of death its not worth living a long life? :smirk:

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OfflineChemy
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: QuantumReality]
    #8543825 - 06/20/08 09:50 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Dizzwizzle said:
Quote:

Chemy said:
Quote:

Dizzwizzle said:
yes there is, to live long and gain as much relevant information as possible



Oh ok, I'll change my religious status from Baptist to Atheist and start eating healthy, thanks.





Ok...
So you think that just because your "Baptist" and not afraid of death its not worth living a long life? :smirk:



I change my mind, I'm going to get my con skills tight so I can become an evangelist.

I have a 2 year plan: become an evangelist, make a million dollars, then retire and become an agnostic and attend Temple once a week.


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Chemy]
    #8543929 - 06/20/08 10:34 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Chemy said:
Quote:

Dizzwizzle said:
Quote:

Chemy said:
Quote:

Dizzwizzle said:
yes there is, to live long and gain as much relevant information as possible



Oh ok, I'll change my religious status from Baptist to Atheist and start eating healthy, thanks.





Ok...
So you think that just because your "Baptist" and not afraid of death its not worth living a long life? :smirk:



I change my mind, I'm going to get my con skills tight so I can become an evangelist.

I have a 2 year plan: become an evangelist, make a million dollars, then retire and become an agnostic and attend Temple once a week.




Luckily for you in 2 years Ill finally be able to absolutely prove the existence of god for the first time in history. By joining my scam........er temple now you of course will be invited to participate. Membership fees......I mean donations will only be $50.00 a month, but hurry up and join now new member registration closes at the end of this month.

I feel that god is speaking to you right now, he wants you to share god with everyone possible. Dont forget god is love, and I love money so come share your eternal love of god with me.:grin:


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8543953 - 06/20/08 10:45 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Nope. These are not my reasons, but actual quotes. Of course, every single one denies Christ's teachings of faith, healing and wellness, but what the heck, got to make excuses to keep the delusion going.

1. The Lord does not send us things we can not handle.

2. God is using my diabetes to help lead others to him.

3. I think that I have a purpose in my diabetes.

4. It is God's will.

5. Living with diabetes has made my faith stronger.

6. God used that time (multiple hospitilizations for diabetic complications) to show me that I needed to take Him more seriously.

7. He (God) certain(ly) can heal us but He uses these things (diabetic illness) in our lives to help us grow, learn and glorify Him.



I won't even mention that diabetes is higher in the Bible Belt and in Baptists in particular. Oops! I just mentioned it, didn't I?  Bad OC. :mad2:




I don't think you've made a valid point.

Support your premise that the bible says god will heal his followers if they pray enough or whatever.  Diabetes could be said to directly support faith, as would all illnesses.  I'm reminded of the story of job and god showing satan he wouldn't loose faith.

I don't see how illness cuts against faith at all.


So show where the bible promises health and healing in exchange for being a good christian?

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: johnm214]
    #8543986 - 06/20/08 10:59 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

In response to why God does anything bad:

Maybe he is trying to choose the best of all possible worlds, and in order to do so, some bad things will happen to some people, but the greatest good will eventually be given to the greatest number?

Like OK, you got diabetes... but maybe in a random hospital visit you accidentally knocked a piece of paper onto the ground. Some Dr subsequentially tripped on the paper, knocking him out. When he woke up, he was tendered to by some hot nurse. They went out, had sex, got married, had kids. One of those kids grows up to cure cancer. And none of that would have happened if you hadn't got diabetes.

So in order to remove pain and suffering for millions of cancer patients in the future, you had to get diabetes. God knew this, and being all-knowing and all-good, decided to make it so.


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: undergrounder]
    #8544009 - 06/20/08 11:05 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

undergrounder said:
In response to why God does anything bad:

Maybe he is trying to choose the best of all possible worlds, and in order to do so, some bad things will happen to some people, but the greatest good will eventually be given to the greatest number?

Like OK, you got diabetes... but maybe in a random hospital visit you accidentally knocked a piece of paper onto the ground. Some Dr subsequentially tripped on the paper, knocking him out. When he woke up, he was tendered to by some hot nurse. They went out, had sex, got married, had kids. One of those kids grows up to cure cancer. And none of that would have happened if you hadn't got diabetes.

So in order to remove pain and suffering for millions of cancer patients in the future, you had to get diabetes. God knew this, and being all-knowing and all-good, decided to make it so.




Why would god need to disable someone with diabetes in some backwards roundabout attempt to cure cancer? Or for that matter why would cancer even exist?


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8544043 - 06/20/08 11:20 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Shhh...God works in mysterious ways, my son.

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8544049 - 06/20/08 11:24 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Well im thinking here not of the kind of God that most Christians would believe in, more a God that makes a little more sense to modern day thinking.

Imagine there's the Big Bang at the start of the known universe. Noone knows what happened before the Big Bang, and the cause of effect chain that we base all our science on, only goes so far back as to this point in time. God is the uncaused cause. Accordinly to our theories, every possible future iteration of how the universe is to turn out, stems from this one moment of time. Think of the state of the universe at the Big Bang as a single master equation that reiterates and extends to form all the complexity of life that we know. God, by defining the initial state of this equation, can therefore have some control over what happens. In this way God can be all-knowing and all-powerful, at least to the extent that he can determine the future state of the universe from this one decision.

So what properties does he insert into the master equation? The ones that would ensure the resulting universe is the best of all the possibilities. It may not be perfect, but it is the best. AFTER the big bang, he has no control, a little like a scientist with an evolutionary simulation. He can set the initial properties and see what happens. The difference is, God is not only all-knowing and all-powerful, but he is also omnibenevolent. Therefore, he picks the best of all the possibilities, and if it means you get diabetes for the good of the the universe, you get diabetes.

In this way cancer might exist because without it, there would actually be MORE suffering in the world, through a similar chain of events... perhaps there was some guy in the 1980s who if he had survived, would have eventually played the pivotal role in destroying the entire world through a nuclear holocaust. If it wasn't for the cancer he developed in his early 40s, this result would have happened. It's not so much that God wants to do any one thing for a particular reason, more that he defined the world from the very beginning in such a way that it was the best possible world it could be.


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8544075 - 06/20/08 11:31 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

OrgoneConclusion, how about making the ULTIMATE "why Christians suck" thread and then moving on to greener pastures?

It seems to me you are wasting your precious time beating around the same bush over and over again.

Its like being really nauseous but refusing to vomit. Instead of being rid of it you merely perpetuate your nausea.

Throw it all out, make the ultimate thread on the topic and explore other realms.


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Asante]
    #8544084 - 06/20/08 11:36 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Only if the believers will agree to make an ultimate "why Christians don't suck" thread.  :grin:

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: undergrounder]
    #8544088 - 06/20/08 11:38 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

  • Well im thinking here not of the kind of God that most Christians would believe in, more a God that makes a little more sense to modern day thinking.

So since the traditional models of god are absurd, and people are quickly realizing this you have invented a new god to believe in. One that "makes a little more sense to modern day thinking."


  • In this way cancer might exist because without it, there would actually be MORE suffering in the world, through a similar chain of events... perhaps there was some guy in the 1980s who if he had survived, would have eventually played the pivotal role in destroying the entire world through a nuclear holocaust.


So in order to stop him god creates cancer, and in the process murders billions of people? Why not just not create the guy, or give him a prenatal birth defect.

This all just seems counterintuitive, and unreasonable. You obviously have the intelligence to discern reality from an antiquated mythic coping mechanism. Why INVENT a new god to replace the old one. Your creating stories, and absurd scenarios to validate the god which you created.


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Veritas]
    #8544091 - 06/20/08 11:39 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Only if the believers will agree to make an ultimate "why Christians don't suck" thread. 




Seriously, how many of those threads are there in here.

Besides, every person can only decide for himself, so each christian would have a right to their own Ultimate thread.


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Asante]
    #8544105 - 06/20/08 11:43 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Ah, well, I guess we'll all have to deal with both sides of the story, then.  :shrug:

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Veritas]
    #8544127 - 06/20/08 11:50 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

At least we can all agree on one thing.....scientologists are loons.:smirk:


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8544161 - 06/20/08 12:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
So since the traditional models of god are absurd, and people are quickly realizing this you have invented a new god to believe in. One that "makes a little more sense to modern day thinking."




Not really, im playing devil's advocate here, the inventory is actually Gottfried Lebniz would have given this answer if he were still alive today, since of all the ideas of God, his makes the most sense... His alternative cosmology (the Monadology), a type of atomicism different to Newton's theory of gravity and close in many ways to modern String Theory, makes a lot of sense even today.. In fact Leibniz has many public disputes with Newton while he was alive (not only about who invented the calculus), and the monadology, similar also to Special Relativity Theory, can account for a whole host of logical problems that we still have today.

Quote:

So in order to stop him god creates cancer, and in the process murders billions of people? Why not just not create the guy, or give him a prenatal birth defect.




[Leibniz would say] because God doesn't control what happens after he started the experiment, he only set the experiment up from the beginning, he can't create a perfect world, only the -best- one, given the infinite possibilities of the equation. Further, he can't intervene once it's got itself going.

Quote:

This all just seems counterintuitive, and unreasonable. You obviously have the intelligence to discern reality from an antiquated mythic coping mechanism. Why INVENT a new god to replace the old one. Your creating stories, and absurd scenarios to validate the god which you created.




Although Leibniz was a Catholic, he lived in a time when Galileo was forced by the Catholic Church to recount his proclamation that the sun revolved around the world, the same time budding scientists and philosophers were being chased and burned at the stake for herecy.. Great thinkers like Descartes and Leibniz were often forced to rewrite God into their systems in order to stay alive, and its debatable whether Leibniz inserted God into his cosmology in order to appease the Church. Let's say though, that it turns out that God really does exist. If you wanted to write about your findings in any scientific journal, you'd probably be 'burned at the stake' and need to appease the scientists of the time in the same way as Galileo did 3 centuries ago.

It doesn't seem that crazy if you see God as the creator, but not the arbiter of life. Of course his name might not be God and he might not even 'be' a thing, but even if you could consider God as the first equation of the state of the universe at the moment of the big bang, then that equation would be all-poweful and all-knowing... very God-like you'd think.


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: undergrounder]
    #8544261 - 06/20/08 12:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

.


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Edited by blewmeanie (02/02/10 11:12 AM)

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8544367 - 06/20/08 01:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

What all of these Christians fail to realize when making those statements about why they aren't cured miraculously, is that Jesus never said he would remove consequences of actions. Since many people who have diabetes, have it as a direct result to poor diet, and lack of proper exercise, it is only natural to assume that the consequences of their actions won't be removed. 

I think part of the reason the people who made these statements failed to realize that is because it seems common amongst many modern Christians to deny any blame in themselves, opting instead to say they are "being tested" or "God works in mysterious ways".

What YOU seem to be forgetting is that modern Christians aren't really followers of Jesus. They are followers of an image of him that has been distorted by church leaders and other HUMANS who seek to gain power, fame, money, and other such greedy worldly things.

A TRUE Christian (Christian being translated literally to Christ-like) would be someone who is a poor wanderer, who helps whomever they can, loving ALL other humans, not telling anyone they are going to hell if they don't repent or believe a certain way.

There are many things that Christians believe that Jesus NEVER taught...

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
~Gandhi


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8544418 - 06/20/08 01:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:dontspillme:


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Edited by blewmeanie (01/23/10 02:42 PM)

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8544464 - 06/20/08 01:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Kwai Chang Caine would have made a much better messiah.

:rofl:

That's funny, but it brings up another interesting point. Jesus never actually claimed to be the Messiah.


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8544489 - 06/20/08 01:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

.


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Edited by blewmeanie (02/02/10 11:11 AM)

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8544520 - 06/20/08 01:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
  • Well im thinking here not of the kind of God that most Christians would believe in, more a God that makes a little more sense to modern day thinking.

So since the traditional models of god are absurd, and people are quickly realizing this you have invented a new god to believe in. One that "makes a little more sense to modern day thinking."
 





With the exception of the "modern day of thinking" this is how I think of god, something that is either rational and/or incomprehensible, but not trite or emotional, and not someone who makes mistakes, et cet.  What is wrong with this?

You seem to decide that because someone rejects a fallacious view of the universe that has similarities to more popular views that the former must be predicated upon the later, and that the former is therefore depnedant upon the later for validity in some manner.  I reject this view.

I didn't create my belief from christianity, and whether christiantiy is logical or not has no effect on my beliefs.

Your notion of creating a new god is also silly.  You presuppose god doesn't exist by the 'creation' metaphore, which isn't helpful.  Same with the "new" god.

Quote:

blewmeanie said:


I just dont see a reason or a necessity to invent a god. I'm not even suggesting that atheism is the route to take, but why not simply observe the facts

Collect data

Examen any aparent patterns that may exist

Using these facts build a predictive model

Use the predictions about what should happen to collect more data.

Use that data to modify your model abandoning the
impossible, and keeping only what is certain

Repeat until perfect





Obviously this is how people think.  What are you suggesting?  I don't get what the utility of your statement is.  If your saying the presence of absence of god, or his nature, is evidenced by these methods, why don't you just say so?

Otherwise your just saying: think.

k :thumbup:

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8544895 - 06/20/08 03:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
John 4:25-26
   

25 The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."

26 Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."




I should have been more specific once again.

Jews frequently used the word messiah to mean teacher, prophet, priest, or king. Jesus was most definitely a teacher, and I personally believe him to have been a prophet of divine nature along the lines of Muhammad, Sarah, Miriam, Devorah, Hannah, Siddhartha Gautama, Moses, Noah, Abraham, and MANY MANY others who taught a particular path to God. So his answer to the woman at the well who was seeking answers from a messiah who would "tell us all things" relevant to worshiping God, as God sought to be worshiped (which was exactly what Jesus successfully displayed with his lifestyle) was not an admittance of being the Messiah who would save the Jews, but an admittance (in my opinion of course) to simply being a messiah as the word was used in it's day.

The point I was trying to make is that Jesus never claimed to be the Davidic Anointed King (the Messiah that was to save the Jews) that Christians accept him to be. In fact, he denied being a descendant of David's line, and is only traced to be of David's line through Joseph, who wasn't even biologically related to Jesus. It is also interesting to note that Matthew and Luke use two contradicting genealogies to prove that Joseph was of David's line, quite possibly because David's line had been wiped out, or untraced for 500 years before Jesus was alive.

Of course, I'll admit that my OPINION of what Jesus meant by admitting to the woman at the well that he was the messiah she was speaking of, is an opinion based in my own subjective understanding of the man, as is pretty much ANY interpretation of anything the man said. I will also add that my understanding of Jesus, has led me to strive to be a person like he was in his life: one who is poor by choice, helps others and accepts all humans for being the most they are capable of being in this life. And furthermore, my desire to understand Jesus more accurately has bred a love for knowledge and learning.

I will not deny that the average religious believer seems to be a little less intelligent then the average skeptic. I got a little irritated by this thread upon initially reading it, but I just realized, as I hope all who read this will also realize, it is possible to be spiritual without being religious, and it is also possible to be an intelligent skeptic, and a spiritual person...


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8544921 - 06/20/08 03:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

and is only traced to be of David's line through Joseph, who wasn't even biologically related to Jesus




We must honor the sancitity of marriage unless you get pregnant by someone other than your husband and come up with a really, really, really good story.

The Virgin Mary is worshipped as some great saint when in point of fact, she was merely a cheating tramp.


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: johnm214]
    #8544958 - 06/20/08 03:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

.


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8545286 - 06/20/08 06:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Why do you waste so much time ridiculing the shallow statements of the shallow multitudes? There is much sense to be made of religious myths in many traditions, the Christian tradition included, which lends direction to the development of human nature. All the time you spend griping and being annoyed means that you are cultivating negative emotion in yourself. From any sensible position (and I'm reading some of that impossibly obtuse Gurdjieff stuff on my summer break) - cultivating negative emotion is the worst thing anyone can do to ourselves on every level from the cellular upwards.

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8545395 - 06/20/08 07:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Jesus is really a personification of the sun, as well as drugs, like the cannabis oil he was "anointed" with in the bible (Jesus Christ means the anointed one.  But Jesus IS the oil (walking on water?) and with it the sick can be healed.

Now it has been shown that for some people cannabis oil will control their diabetes, so their answer should have been: Because the Catholic Church has robbed us of the true body of Christ, the mushroom, his blood, mushroom tea, and the anointing oil.

The Hebrew recipe for the anointing oil called for a few pounds of the flowering tops of the hemp plant, should have been nice and potent.

Jesus Also made the blind see, and as we know cannabis can be used to treat glaucoma which causes blindness, so that is a possibility (I dont know if after vision is lost it could be restored, just musing).


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Cannashroom]
    #8545410 - 06/20/08 07:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

  • The Hebrew recipe for the anointing oil called for a few pounds of the flowering tops of the hemp plant, should have been nice and potent.


I hear this all the time, but I have yet to find or hear of a reliable source aside from hippie conjecture.

SOURCES?


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8545429 - 06/20/08 07:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)



--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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InvisibleAfroshroomerican
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: undergrounder]
    #8545446 - 06/20/08 07:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

To the OP:
Why the hell do you hate religion SO MUCH?

Your anti-religious preachings are as bad as the suppositions of Christian missionaries.  The goal is inverted, but in the same spectrum, really.  It's almost like you're on an anti-religious crusade and are willing to find any discrepancy you can to invalidate belief systems.

Do you feel superior to religious people because they are "illogical"?

I will tell you this:  Your argument isn't creative and has been used almost verbatim.


I'm not a Christian, but if I wanted to play devil's advocate, I could say: Well, Christians die earlier because they have fulfilled their goals on earth and are ready to be welcomed to the Kingdom.  And you really couldn't discredit me because no one knows for sure whether a  divine entities exists or does not; it would be my belief.


--------------------
"We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools."

~Martin Luther King Jr.~

<passitbobbie> if I just showed you a closeup of my ass
<passitbobbie> youd think it was female

"You owe errrbody up in here an apology fow youwe shit, HO!" - classic

Edited by Afroshroomerican (06/20/08 07:25 PM)

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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Cannashroom]
    #8545450 - 06/20/08 07:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Now, if you read the bible as a story about lots of people taking drugs, all those crazy stories start to make a lot more sense.

If you realize that Jesus is an entheogen (which "creates god within") then it makes a lot more sense that the only true path to god is through Jesus Christ.

The original entheogen jesus personified was amanita muscaria, google the pharmacratic inquisition if you are interested.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Cannashroom]
    #8545453 - 06/20/08 07:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

.


--------------------
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Learn To Code

Edited by blewmeanie (02/02/10 11:10 AM)

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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8545481 - 06/20/08 07:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Well, here is two guys production about how Jesus is the drugs [url=
&q=&hl=en]The Pharmacratic Inquisition[/url]

It is the result of years of their research, as well as the works of John Marco Allegro on the Dead Sea Scrolls.

This is the first part of twelve on youtube, just search for pharmacratic inquisition.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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InvisibleAfroshroomerican
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Cannashroom]
    #8545501 - 06/20/08 07:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

1)  There is no God; there is only logic and math! :blah:

2) Religion is so illogical and believers are of inferior intelligence:  :blah:  :blah:

3) Religious people die, so it's obvious god ain't savin' em!  :blah:  :blah:  :blah:

4) Everyone ate poisoned rye, mushrooms, etc etc (been said YEARS before that video)  :blah:  :blah:  :blah:  :blah:

5) God doesn't exist; may everyone convert to our way of thinking despite having no proof of non-existence  :blah:  :blah:  :blah:  :blah:  :blah:  :blah:

:beatadeadhorse:


--------------------
"We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools."

~Martin Luther King Jr.~

<passitbobbie> if I just showed you a closeup of my ass
<passitbobbie> youd think it was female

"You owe errrbody up in here an apology fow youwe shit, HO!" - classic

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8545536 - 06/20/08 07:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Folks, if you don't like the topic, stop participating.

Joining the discussion for the sole purpose of adding noise about how much you don't like the discussion is pointless and wastes everyone's time. It's called derailing and it's against the rules.

Either participate constructively or don't participate at all.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Afroshroomerican]
    #8545565 - 06/20/08 08:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

God doesn't exist; may everyone convert to our way of thinking despite having no proof of non-existence




*sigh*  You cannot prove non-existence.  A lack of proof of non-existence means exactly nothing.  The burden of proof is on the claimant, and thus far _________________.

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Veritas]
    #8545807 - 06/20/08 10:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Oh no! God smote Veritas before she could finish her post!


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Afroshroomerican]
    #8545856 - 06/20/08 10:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I will tell you this:  Your argument isn't creative and has been used almost verbatim.




Why not refute my point with an actual argument instead of noise? There was no claim of originality.

Look, I am an advocate of fitness and can lay out a program that will have a positive affect on any who participate. Period. No lame excuses or reasons why my methods won't work.

Christians claim that Jesus heals and that prayer works and I take those as a premise and look for the positive health effects on the group. There just plain aren't any.


--------------------

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8545883 - 06/20/08 10:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I'd like to again point out that the entire premise of this threat, that suffering preventable by god is somehow contrary to what is promised to the faithful, is unsupported by this thread.

Orgone, why don't you back up your premise?  I see nothing in this thread where you've shown where the bible or whatever promises things different than you've claimed to contradict faith and all that jazz.

Prior post:

Quote:

Quote:

johnm214 said:
[
I don't think you've made a valid point.

Support your premise that the bible says god will heal his followers if they pray enough or whatever.  Diabetes could be said to directly support faith, as would all illnesses.  I'm reminded of the story of job and god showing satan he wouldn't loose faith.

I don't see how illness cuts against faith at all.


So show where the bible promises health and healing in exchange for being a good christian?






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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8545890 - 06/20/08 10:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I am totally stupefied by Christians. Which part is difficult for them to grok:

Premise: Jesus can heal any illness for those who have faith in him.

Christians claim to believe in Jesus.

Christian health is somewhat worse than atheists/agnostics which is TOTALLY counter to the premise.

Where is the cognizant dissonance?





Where is the cognizant dissonance?

Is this the question you are offering for discussion.

Heres my premise:


Not all people who describe themselves as Christian believe that Jesus will heal them if they believe in him. Some do.

My conclusion:

Some Christians display cognizant dissonance.

Maybe you should post this in the Shroomery News Service.

Of course it's not really cognizant dissonance on their part, because apparently they are not aware of the disparity. Now we are. Good job Orgone, have you thought about a career as a journalist. You remind me a young Morely Safer with your hard hitting insightful writing. The world needs good town criers,  get the word out.

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: falcon]
    #8545916 - 06/20/08 11:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

better yet, where is the evidence that Jesus is expected to heal anyone of his faithful?  I don't recall that in the bible, and Orgone hasn't pointed it out.

I'm not betting its not in there, it may be, but this whole thread is silly without him proving his premises.

It really seems like a thread based upon unclear premises and presupositions.

The bible says people have free will and must do their best, and that jesus doesn't favor the lazy....

Show me where christians could have an expectation of being free from diseases, especially diseases like type II which is usually a result of the lifestyle of the afflicted.

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: johnm214]
    #8545954 - 06/20/08 11:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

James 5:15-16

"15 And their prayer offered in faith will heal the sick, and the Lord will make them well. And anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven.

16 Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and wonderful results."

I will fairly assume that OrgoneConclusion was not being precise, and used the term "Jesus" to apply to the Christian faith in general.

This being the case, I believe I have supplied the evidence you requested.


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8545975 - 06/20/08 11:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
6. God used that time (multiple hospitilizations for diabetic complications) to show me that I needed to take Him more seriously.




how could one love a "God" that put them through misery to get his message of love across?


--------------------
I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: igwna]
    #8546320 - 06/21/08 02:16 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

skcorrelyt said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
6. God used that time (multiple hospitilizations for diabetic complications) to show me that I needed to take Him more seriously.




how could one love a "God" that put them through misery to get his message of love across?




how could you love your "Mother" who sent you to your room when you were naughty because she loved you and was trying to teach you a lesson?


--------------------
:igor: RIP :igor:

Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
:pinkshroom: :supershroom: :mushroom2: :shroomer: :mushroom2: :supershroom: :pinkshroom:

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: undergrounder]
    #8546432 - 06/21/08 03:22 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

undergrounder said:
Quote:

skcorrelyt said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
6. God used that time (multiple hospitalizations for diabetic complications) to show me that I needed to take Him more seriously.




how could one love a "God" that put them through misery to get his message of love across?




how could you love your "Mother" who sent you to your room when you were naughty because she loved you and was trying to teach you a lesson?




How could you compare your mother to god, sending you to Ur room for a few hours? or contract a disease that burdens or ends Ur life? the effort used to send that loving disease could of been a message of salvation? not your going to die a slow painfully death from your doctor.


--------------------
"If the words 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on." - T. McKenna

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Kinetic]
    #8546495 - 06/21/08 04:32 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You can't argue that the punishment is unjustified, i mean... god is trying to save you from going to eternal damnation and getting blowtorched by demons for eternity... if it takes getting diabetes for you to get to go to heaven, maybe it is justified?

But it doesn't matter, it's the same thing... you're being punished but it's only because he/she loves you and wants you to be a better person.


--------------------
:igor: RIP :igor:

Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
:pinkshroom: :supershroom: :mushroom2: :shroomer: :mushroom2: :supershroom: :pinkshroom:

Edited by undergrounder (06/21/08 04:53 AM)

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: undergrounder]
    #8546520 - 06/21/08 05:16 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

god is trying to save you from going to eternal damnation and getting blowtorched

Then he's not omnipotent. He's just an ordinary entity who is easily 'blowtorched'.

In other words, he's nothing special and hardly worthy of worship.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Diploid]
    #8546554 - 06/21/08 05:50 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
I just dont see a reason or a necessity to invent a god. I'm not even suggesting that atheism is the route to take, but why not simply observe the facts

Collect data

Examen any aparent patterns that may exist

Using these facts build a predictive model

Use the predictions about what should happen to collect more data.

Use that data to modify your model abandoning the
impossible, and keeping only what is certain

Repeat until perfect





That's fine man, but tell me how that method can explain what happened before the Big Bang for instance. Space and Time started at that one point, there's no -before- in a traditional sense, but how does science explain what caused the Big Bang? It doesn't. There is a general acceptance that science cannot theorise about what happened before then because there is no scientific way to do so - everything breaks down. So do you just forget about it and say it's not a question worth asking? If faith or belief don't work for you, then why not logic? Leibniz's God is a logical God. Not perfectly logical, there are tonnes of mistakes there, but it's interesting nonetheless.

Quote:


Your going to have to help me out, you lost me with this one. God is an equation? I think you must be using "equation" in an abstract way that I dont quite understand. Please elaborate.





I refer you back to this post for starters, and ill expand a little below...

Quote:


I just looked up monadology, and I would say its ridiculous, but its no more bizarre than any of the other new ideas about matter, and space lately. Check out physicsforums.com if your interested in such things.




LOL you looked it up did you? no idea how you could possibly understand it without a week of thinking and reading, its a pretty hard theory to understand.

It's not a new theory, it was written in 1714, before atomicism, before microscopes, around the same time as Newton, before Relativity theory, before String Theory, the same time any type of physics was being invented.

Instead of atoms, there are monads - the basic matter of the universe. Leibniz says that scale cannot continue getting infinitely smaller, there must be a limit where time and space breaks down or stops, a view many theoretical physicists hold today.

By this reasoning, then the SMALLEST particles, whatever their name, must be INDIVISIBLE. For to be divisible, means they can become smaller, which is impossible. Thus, monads must have not dimension, nor extension, nor length, nor space. That is, they must have no physical existence.

He goes on.. but they must have SOME properties, or they would not be 'things' at all... and further, they must differ in these properties, or they would all be the same thing. So how can you have a property but no mass? You OWN your PERSPECTIVE on the all the other monads nearby. Say you are a monad, then you OWN your distance to the front door as a special property of you. Similarly, if your front door was a monad, it owns this relationship from you to it. Thus, the monadology is a relational theory, whereby the fundamental units of the universe are defined by their relations to all other things, not their single position in space/time. If it helps, picture roughly each monad as a glass sphere, reflecting the world around it... Having no mass or space itself, but having a perspective of all the other monads nearby. It does not exist at a point in space, but because its perspective will differ slightly from all the others, it retains space-like properties nonetheless.

...

i could go on, but the information is out there..

If you looked up String Theory or M Theory, the basic ideas would match almost perfectly.. fundamentall, though, both involve a non-physical mathmatical reality that generates the physical reality on top of it. Newton and Leibniz had a famous argument (Leibniz vs. Clarke) that amounted to an absolute theory vs. Leibniz's relativity theory. Newton won the day, though Leibniz was proved right with Einstein's General Theory of Relativity... recent physical theories are also proving to be more and more like Leibniz's monadology.

And the important thing, Leibniz didn't own a hadron collider, or a microscope, or even a significant laboratory... he just used his head. This is how it must be, for the world to make sense. Anyway...

Concerning the God-as-equation analogy:

Think of each monad as a simple equation. Say... Z = Z2 +  C. If you run that equation, it generates devastatingly beautiful, infinite complexity:


(The Mandelbrot Set, Z = Z2 + C)


In order to create a universe of infinite complexity, God doesn't need to run around moving everything constantly and changing things and giving people diabetes, all he needs do is define a simple equation, insert the values, and let the complexity start itself. Think DNA or the Big Bang for further examples... So what God did was figure out an equation for all the monads at the start of the universe. After he defines the values, he sits back and lets the universe run itself. So what does values does he choose? He chooses the ones that bring the most good to the world out of all the possibilities. Like a chess player he can run through all the iterations of all the infinite possibilities and go... OK, Bingo - ill pick these numbers here, and let's get this universe thing going. BAM! Big Bang, the great experiment begins...

---

"In his later work, The Fabric of the Cosmos, Greene states that "the familiar notion of space and time do not extend into the sub-Planckian realm, which suggests that space and time as we currently understand them may be mere approximations to more fundamental concepts that still await our discovery."

Monads anyone?


--------------------
:igor: RIP :igor:

Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
:pinkshroom: :supershroom: :mushroom2: :shroomer: :mushroom2: :supershroom: :pinkshroom:

Edited by undergrounder (06/21/08 05:56 AM)

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: undergrounder]
    #8547251 - 06/21/08 11:31 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

undergrounder said:
Thats fine man, but tell me how that method can explain what happened before the Big Bang for instance. Space and Time started at that one point, there's no -before- in a traditional sense, but how does science explain what caused the Big Bang?





Well you assume that the big bang theory is fact when it is simply a model built from our best current observations. There are problems with it though, for instance the current model predicts a higher level of CMBR than we  currently measure.


Quote:


It doesn't. There is a general acceptance that science cannot theorise about what happened before then because there is no scientific way to do so





Again you assume there is a time before the big bang, why allocate a quality to something you see no evidence for?



Quote:


- everything breaks down. So do you just forget about it and say it's not a question worth asking? If faith or belief don't work for you, then why not logic?





Logic tells me we need more data, and assumptions are like assholes, theorizing about god seems to involve allot of them.:grin:



Quote:


LOL you looked it up did you? no idea how you could possibly understand it without a week of thinking and reading, its a pretty hard theory to understand.





I never said I understood it, only that I looked it up, and it appears no less ridiculous than anything else. However its not really a scientific theory, it's doesnt seem like anything more than a very abstract philosophy at best. Its no different than stating the universe is held on the back of a turtle osculating at a wavelength we can not perceive.



Quote:


Think of each monad as a simple equation. Say... Z = Z2 +  C. If you run that equation, it generates devastatingly beautiful, infinite complexity:






Oh you fucking hippie, you just had to bring up fractal's:rolleyes:. There really should be a rule about that.:rofl:


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8548514 - 06/21/08 07:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Well you assume that the big bang theory is fact when it is simply a model built from our best current observations. There are problems with it though, for instance the current model predicts a higher level of CMBR than we  currently measure.



Really? I thought it matched exactly, which is why you can buy t-shirts printed with the data from the COBE mission, since it was such a success.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: zouden]
    #8548607 - 06/21/08 07:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Its most likely correct, the model just isnt perfect.

Allot of people have considerable misconceptions about the "big bang theory" as well. It isnt necessarily an event that happened at a specific location in space, and doesnt have to be considered an event that happened in space-time. Its really just the name for the point at which the time coordinate of the coordinate system goes to zero. Its really all just math, and for now allot of it is still over my head.

However if "god" was taking bets, the big bang theory is where I would put my money. I really wish they would explain to student in school how they draw these conclusions and form these theory's though though, there are just so many misconceptions. Most people actually think of protons, electrons, and the diagram that we use to represent the inner workings of an atom as real objects, rather than the properties that have been found to be mathematically provable. (Which is all they really are) It really made math allot more fun for me when I started studying it.


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8548708 - 06/21/08 08:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

But protons and electrons are real objects.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: zouden]
    #8548716 - 06/21/08 08:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Thank you for proving my point. :thumbdown: for public education.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8548746 - 06/21/08 08:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I don't understand what you mean. A proton is not just an expression of the Schrodinger equation - it is a real, measurable object that exists in the physical world.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
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OfflineChemy
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: zouden]
    #8548752 - 06/21/08 08:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
But protons and electrons are real objects.



There is alot more physics and particles in an atom than what you have studied in chem class, what you are taught with the models in class are nothing like actual atoms and molecules. You already know that though and this physics stuff is way over my head no wonder I dropped out:thumbdown:


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Chemy]
    #8548768 - 06/21/08 08:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I was taught the Bohr model - yes I know it's like 80 years old now but I didn't think it had been superseded by anything else, at least, it works well enough to describe the shape of the orbitals etc, which was enough for chemistry students, as you said.
So what's new in the atomic theory that I missed?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineChemy
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: zouden]
    #8548783 - 06/21/08 08:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
I was taught the Bohr model - yes I know it's like 80 years old now but I didn't think it had been superseded by anything else, at least, it works well enough to describe the shape of the orbitals etc, which was enough for chemistry students, as you said.
So what's new in the atomic theory that I missed?



What's new since the Bohr model? Jesus, everything, I guess,


--------------------
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Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: WordlessNature]
    #8548805 - 06/21/08 08:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

WordlessNature said:
James 5:15-16

"15 And their prayer offered in faith will heal the sick, and the Lord will make them well. And anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven.

16 Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and wonderful results."

I will fairly assume that OrgoneConclusion was not being precise, and used the term "Jesus" to apply to the Christian faith in general.

This being the case, I believe I have supplied the evidence you requested.





This was James speaking to the Israelites, I believe.

While I'll grant you that the biblical folk take the bible to be the word of god, however; this is not how I view it: the word of god is what god said, and not what some shmuck said, so god never promised anything if we accept the bible.

I guess its kinda tricky.  You are absolutly right that people view the bible as word of god, however; I think that's bullshit: the bible is just a bunch of testimony and stories, and god is what god is, not what someone said he is.


So I'd still say that god never promised healing to the sick.

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Nope. These are not my reasons, but actual quotes. Of course, every single one denies Christ's teachings of faith, healing and wellness, but what the heck, got to make excuses to keep the delusion going.


I won't even mention that diabetes is higher in the Bible Belt and in Baptists in particular. Oops! I just mentioned it, didn't I?  Bad OC. :mad2:




So Orgone, or anyone else, where did Christ/God promise to heal the sick if they pray or whatever?

This is one of my criticisms of some discussion in this forum:  A bunch of what-ifs and loose logic.  If Orgone claims Jesus promised something he should demonstrate it.

Again, I'm not saying Jesus never said this, but I don't know that he did, and Orgone or anyone else has not shown the promise he's alluded to.

Where is it?

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: johnm214]
    #8548815 - 06/21/08 09:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I guess its kinda tricky.  You are absolutly right that people view the bible as word of god, however; I think that's bullshit: the bible is just a bunch of testimony and stories, and god is what god is, not what someone said he is.


So I'd still say that god never promised healing to the sick.



That's because you're not a fundamentalist - that minority of Christians who make the rest look bad.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: zouden]
    #8548830 - 06/21/08 09:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Lest I be misunderstood, I'm also not a christian and don't view the bible as the word of god.

Just saying that if I was a christian and revered the bible, of which I've read, I wouldn't simply accept every fucking verse in the whole thing at face value.

When god promises something fine... When James or some random dude is quoted- that's not the word of god and means nothing except some politician elected to include the passage.


My criticism still stands though... Orgone didn't demonstrate that god ever promised healing the sick, and hasn't even shown how his conclusions are valid: how faith is destroyed by illness or whatnot...

Thus it was a poor post, and he's not answered my criticism yet

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: johnm214]
    #8548842 - 06/21/08 09:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You don't believe that God ever promised he'd heal the sick (and I'm inclined to believe you since you've done the research) but that doesn't change the fact that many, many people do believe that God actually said that.

The Christians who believe the Bible is the literal word of God, yet haven't actually read it, are the worst kind of Christians.

BTW I thought you were a Christian? Or do you just believe in a God?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: zouden]
    #8548888 - 06/21/08 09:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

But protons and electrons are real objects.

Protons and electrons are theoretical constructs that appear to represent real objects. No one has ever seen a proton and it's incorrect to state that they really are real things.

They are theoretical things that do not even posses the property called "its location". Is is not possible to know where any given proton is exactly. All that can be stated is the probability that a proton is at a given point in space.

What's even more mind blowing is that any given proton has a non-zero probability of existing in every point in the universe. In other words, a proton that is observed at the tip of your finger has a 99.999999% probability of actually being at the tip of your finger the next time it's observed and a 0.0000000001% probability of being somewhere near Saturn the next time it's observed.

These numbers are made up, but they illustrate the idea that protons do not have the property called "its location". They're at every point in all of space at the same time in what's called Quantum Superposition, with the highest probability of being at the point in space where you expect them to be.

I think that's pretty cool and it's amazing things like this that make me wonder why some people prefer to cling to made up superstition and mysticism and religion when the real world is so much more interesting.


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2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Diploid]
    #8548923 - 06/21/08 09:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Would you have said the same thing about atoms, before they built microscopes capable of seeing them? Just because we can't see protons, doesn't mean they aren't there. They have mass and charge and we can create them and destroy them and hurl them at metal plates and track them through bubble chambers. They are as real as atoms*.

*make of that what you will


--------------------
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                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: zouden]
    #8548924 - 06/21/08 09:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Nope, not a christian.  I've read the bible though cuz I'm interested in it, and have been to church.  I wouldn't feel too confident in my understanding that jesus/god never promised to heal folks though, it's been a few years since i"ve read the bible and don't feel confident he never did, I just think he didn't- and it should be the thread starter's burden to show this.  The bible is also long, confusing, and contradictory, so it'd be easy to miss.




I just don't believe that the bible is credible, the verses were inserted democratically, and the chain of custody is very weak.  I believe in a rational god out of neccesity- what's the use of trying to please an irrational one?  If a rational god wanted to reveal his instructions to me, he could do much better than transmitting a book full of conflicting messages to me written in a language I don't speak.  I'm confident god could send me a letter or something, or maybe release an instruction manual, in english, if he wanted to talk to me.  I refuse to believe god is like a child who wants us to devine his intentions or will act vengefully for no damn reason, i.e. send us to hell.


I believe in god, just not how the christians do.

I agree that the worst kind of christians are those who haven't read the bible but act like they know what it says.  Read leviticus for some weird laws (also where the ban on homosexuality comes from, most clear one at least).  Somehow we allow women to wear gold, people in wheelchairs to go the alter and recieve communion, and take the name of god in vain without death (including in church), but we're supposed to ban gays being married? I don't see how we can ignore a whole book of the bible save for the one part we like.

If we're going to follow leviticus and other books, we should be stoning blasphemers, banning women from wearing gold, banning women from speaking in church (take that you horrible choir ladies), and all sorts of other stupid things... Why aren't we?  Somehow the gays are the only ones we must persecute?

THe worst of the worst are those christians who make shit up and blame it on the bible.

Things like no premarital sex.  Where is that in the bible?  Answer: it's not.  The bible never says you can't screw around, just says no adultry and not immoral or unnatural acts: which I presume means molestation, sex out of marriage, or sex with animals.

Yet preachers tell kids they'll sin if they have sex before marriage... bullshit.

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Chemy]
    #8548927 - 06/21/08 09:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:dontspillme:


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Edited by blewmeanie (01/23/10 02:42 PM)

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: zouden]
    #8548929 - 06/21/08 09:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Would you have said the same thing about atoms, before they built microscopes capable of seeing them?

Atoms have never been seen. What those microscopes detect are electromagnetic wave packets that correlate well with atomic theory. Atoms are theoretical constructs. No one has ever seen one.

This is all taught in second year physics in university.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Diploid]
    #8548937 - 06/21/08 09:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
But protons and electrons are real objects.

Protons and electrons are theoretical constructs that appear to represent real objects. No one has ever seen a proton and it's incorrect to state that they really are real things.

They are theoretical things that do not even posses the property called "its location". Is is not possible to know where any given proton is exactly. All that can be stated is the probability that a proton is at a given point in space.

What's even more mind blowing is that any given proton has a non-zero probability of existing in every point in the universe. In other words, a proton that is observed at the tip of your finger has a 99.999999% probability of actually being at the tip of your finger the next time it's observed and a 0.0000000001% probability of being somewhere near Saturn the next time it's observed.

These numbers are made up, but they illustrate the idea that protons do not have the property called "its location". They're at every point in all of space at the same time in what's called Quantum Superposition, with the highest probability of being at the point in space where you expect them to be.

I think that's pretty cool and it's amazing things like this that make me wonder why some people prefer to cling to made up superstition and mysticism and religion when the real world is so much more interesting.





protons are real.  We may not know everything about them but we know plenty.  We can reliably predict their numbers and location et cet.

That the exact location doesn't exist, my understanding, or at least is unidentifiable is irrelevant, the same is true of  the big mac- so what?

Protons exist.  I use them to clean shit and can reliably calculate their activity in a solution, so there.

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Diploid]
    #8548939 - 06/21/08 09:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:

I think that's pretty cool and it's amazing things like this that make me wonder why some people prefer to cling to made up superstition and mysticism and religion when the real world is so much more interesting.



I couldnt have said it better, science is awesome, and far more mysterious than any religion.:yesnod:


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8548940 - 06/21/08 09:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
We still use the bohr model, because for the most part it produces accurate results. However ts just a conceptual idea that allows us to visualize a mathematical function. Its not that there is nothing there, but its not a (in theory) a solid thing like a desk, or the moon. I think the current view is to look at it as a non localized wave function. :crazy2:

The bohr model is a perfectly reasonable way to visualize it though.



That makes sense to me.

As an aside, I think the Copenhagen interpretation says that even a desk or the moon has a wave function. I just wish I could de-localise my desk's wave function and then localise it in a better spot...

Quote:

Diploid said:
Would you have said the same thing about atoms, before they built microscopes capable of seeing them?

Atoms have never been seen. What those microscopes detect are electromagnetic wave packets that appear to represent atoms. They are theoretical constructs.

This is all taught in second year physics in university.



That's close enough to being 'seen' for me, in the same way that when I use a microscope at work I'm merely looking at electromagnetic wave packets that appear to represent neural stem cells.

Edited by zouden (06/21/08 09:45 PM)

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OfflineChemy
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8548950 - 06/21/08 09:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
Quote:

Chemy said:
Quote:

zouden said:
I was taught the Bohr model - yes I know it's like 80 years old now but I didn't think it had been superseded by anything else, at least, it works well enough to describe the shape of the orbitals etc, which was enough for chemistry students, as you said.
So what's new in the atomic theory that I missed?



What's new since the Bohr model? Jesus, everything, I guess, 



We still use the bohr model, because for the most part it produces accurate results. However ts just a conceptual idea that allows us to visualize a mathematical function. Its not that there is nothing there, but its not a (in theory) a solid thing like a desk, or the moon. I think the current view is to look at it as a non localized wave function. :crazy2:

The bohr model is a perfectly reasonable way to visualize it though.



Wasn't the bohr diameter of hydrogen proven to be wrong? Like as in hydrogen is twice the diameter?

The Bohr model really doesn't apply to quantum mechanics nowadays does it? I mean you can just buy 3d modeling software that completes all the calculations right? The Bohr model may have proven useful back when scientists used slide rules to calculate.

I have no idea:shrug:


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: zouden]
    #8548951 - 06/21/08 09:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:dontspillme:


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Edited by blewmeanie (01/23/10 02:42 PM)

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OfflineChemy
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8548960 - 06/21/08 09:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Ahhhhhh, it's been so damn long, now I found this on wikipedia and this is correct the valence shell is used now in quantum mechanics:

Quote:

the Bohr model is still commonly taught to introduce students to quantum mechanics, before moving on to the more accurate but more complex valence shell atom




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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: johnm214]
    #8549009 - 06/21/08 10:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:


Again, I'm not saying Jesus never said this, but I don't know that he did, and Orgone or anyone else has not shown the promise he's alluded to.

Where is it?




Deuteronomy 7:15
The lord will keep you free from every disease. He will not inflict on you the horrible diseases you knew in Egypt, but he will inflict them on all who hate you.

Mathew 18:19
Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.

Mark 11:24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

:grin:


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8549081 - 06/21/08 10:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Well the first one is Moses, the second one is unclear to me... are they saying it will be done for you in heaven or done  by god, in heaven?  I would imagine they mean heaven, as certainly it would make no sense to promise people anything they wanted- clearly provably false at any instant in time and ridiculous.  Could this really be what is meant?

The third is interesting though, as it was jesus that said it, by my reading.  What does this mean? Is jesus really making a testable prediction, or really just saying that if you believe you got something you do?  Kinda weird...  Maybe he was saying in heaven you get that stuff? Or was he just making a philosophical statement, that you have what you believe you have?  As an abstract consequence, the only out is that if you don't have something you don't believe in it enough :smirk:


I'm not sure what the others really mean, but the first one seems like a legit statement by Moses.  Since moses got the famous tablets, I guess you could use him in place of god...

Trouble is he was promising not to us, my reading, but to the sinners to whom he delivered the tablets.  He was saying if they ('you' in the text) reformed they would no longer suffer their plagues (like he delivered to these folks in Egypt) and illnesses, is my understanding.  I don't think this could be used to determine that god promised everyone health, but that god promised those folks(the freed slaves/children of israel)  health, so long as they followed his comandments.  Now surely that promise was broken, some had to get sick, but I don't know its fair to apply to us today, since moses was addressing the sinners, not us.

Quote:

And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.



Deuteronomy 5:1

Quote:

11:...Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.

12Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:




Deuteronomy 7


If someone wants to criticize my reasoning, feel free.  I'm not confident re: the last 2 what was really being said.

Unless jesus was promising everyone anything they wanted, I don't think there's yet support for the notion the bible promises you health.  And even if Jesus was saying you get everything here and now, you just must not believe enough that your free of diabetes, otherwise you'd be cured :smirk:

I don't know... what do you guys think about the "believe it and you've got it" statement?

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8549118 - 06/21/08 11:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
Well you assume that the big bang theory is fact when it is simply a model built from our best current observations. There are problems with it though, for instance the current model predicts a higher level of CMBR than we  currently measure.

...

Again you assume there is a time before the big bang, why allocate a quality to something you see no evidence for?





No i didn't, i thought i made it clear there is no time before the big bang:

Quote:

Undergrounder said:
Space and Time started at that one point, there's no -before- in a traditional sense, but how does science explain what caused the Big Bang?




Again, space and time started from that point... call it a singularity. And there's no before in a traditional sense as i said, but in a discussion we're more than allowed to at least think about time in terms of causes, if only to make progress on the matter and as long as everyone understands the context in which they use their terms.

By the way i don't know if you actually figured it out yet, but this isn't a religious belief, this is a philosophy and an early form of physics.. it's not correct, and i'm not saying it is, so there's no need to rap me over the knuckles because it doesn't sound like a scientific theory today, this is the philosophy forum after all. Don't expect to gain any credit saying that an alternate cosmology written in 1714 is "no less ridiculous than anything else" today, 300 years later. You should catch yourself before saying it's as worthless as the turtle-back theory, however, as it is still widely praised and highly regarded, despite 300 years of scientific 'discovery'.

The reason i think you (and most people) find it strange is because it's written as a scientific theory in 1714 in the same way String Theory was written as a scientific theory in the 1970s - as much philosophy as science. That is, after all, what we're all talking about with protons being real or un-real, at this level of abstraction it all comes down to philosophy and logical juxtapositions just as much as science. The genius of the monadology though is that it was devised through pure logic alone. And the amazing thing is, this theory turned out to be more correct than any scientific theory of the day, and indeed more correct than any other for two whole centuries. Although it looks strange at first glance, there's more in it than you give it credit for, and theoretical physicists have held Leibniz in the highest regard for decades.

I'm pretty amazed in your quick look where you didn't understand it, that you were able to conclude that it was total rubbish. Maybe you found in there something that noone else knows? I think you should give Lee Smolin an email for starters so you can set the record straight on how Leibniz's monadology is only as valid as that of the world on a turtle's back:

"The right, and indeed only scientifically coherent, view of space and time is the relational view championed by Newton's rival, Leibniz. In the 20th Century this became the basis of Einstein'g theory of general relativity, the first theory in which space and time are genuinely relational. Einstein and Leibniz both realised that position and motion have no meaning except relative to other things in the Universe, and that time has no meaning or measure except relative to some physical process which we use as a clock..."

- Smolin, L. (2003) Philosophical Transactions: Mathematical, Physical and Engineering Sciences. Self-Organization: The Quest for the Origin and Evolution of Structure, Vol. 361, No. 1807, pp. 1081 - 1088

From there maybe you can explain how Einstein is rubbish and even how Quantum Mechanics is rubbish:

"Dear Sir: There has recently appeared in this journal a very interesting paper by Professor J. B. S. Haldane, entitled, "Quantum Mechanics as a basis for Philosophy." The paper might indeed be called, "Leibniz as a basis for Quantum Mechanics". The name of Leibniz does not occur once in the article, yet it is permeated with his spirit, and is just such a document as an orthodox Leibnizian might write should he be confronted with the development of mathematics and experimental science in the two centuries since the death of the master..."

- Wiener, N. (1934). Quantum Mechanics, Haldance, and Leibniz. Philosophy of Science, Vol. 1, No. 4, pp. 179 - 482.

Anyway... im realising this is a 'debate' between empiricism and rationalism now just as much as it was back then. That we can know the universe through rational logic and that we can only know the universe through empirical study. I should note that both sides have victories, but neither side is rubbish. This video seems kind of pertinent: At least see the first minute, or for the Leibniz stuff, from 3 mins.



By the way what the fuck did this have to do with Christians and diabetes? oh yes.. the original point still stands ... Under a model where God is seen as a 'creator' not as an ongoing arbiter of all life, he can still be tri-omni and answer all the questions of the OP regarding why He doesn't intervene in suffering.

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: johnm214]
    #8549139 - 06/21/08 11:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:dontspillme:


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8549143 - 06/21/08 11:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I am totally stupefied by Christians. Which part is difficult for them to grok:

Premise: Jesus can heal any illness for those who have faith in him.

Christians claim to believe in Jesus.

Christian health is somewhat worse than atheists/agnostics which is TOTALLY counter to the premise.

Where is the cognizant dissonance?






Just to clarify, I think by saying that "Christian health is somewhat worse than atheists/agnostics which is TOTALLY counter to the premise." you are implying that Jesus would punish those who don't believe in him...


Did I get you right?


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Pillar]
    #8549150 - 06/21/08 11:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Also you incorrectly assume that someone who goes to church has faith. Just to point out.


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: undergrounder]
    #8549214 - 06/21/08 11:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

undergrounder said:

No i didn't, i thought i made it clear there is no time before the big bang:




Your right, I misunderstood. My mistake:grin:
Quote:


so there's no need to rap me over the knuckles because it doesn't sound like a scientific theory today




I wasnt rapping you over the knuckles, just disagreeing. Relax

Quote:


The reason i think you (and most people) find it strange is because it's written as a scientific theory in 1714 in the same way String Theory was written as a scientific theory in the 1970s - as much philosophy as science. That is, after all, what we're all talking about with protons being real or un-real




I dont find it strange at all, I do find it illogical that people relate to(im not saying you do)300 year old conjecture filled with gnostic terminology as if it were a sound model.(again I understand thats not what you were doing)

The example of protons and neutrons cant really be compared to a monad as they are the a conceptual demonstration of a mathematical function, rather than an effort to combine mysticism and physics. I would have to agree with you that he does seem quite insightful for his time. Modern science sounds more and more like the mysticism of old every day.

Quote:


The genius of the monadology though is that it was devised through pure logic alone.




Check out some of the early gnostic thoughts on the nature of god if you havent already done so, they are very similar, and even use the same terminology.

Quote:


For starters if you think you know something Lee Smolin doesn't maybe you should tell him why Leibniz's monadology is only as valid as the world on a turtle's back:




Are you suggesting that the turtle back theory is invalid? :mad2:


Quote:


By the way what the fuck did this have to do with Christians and diabetes?




lol your right it has gotten pretty far off topic :tongue:

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Pillar]
    #8549741 - 06/22/08 03:41 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Just to clarify, I think by saying that "Christian health is somewhat worse than atheists/agnostics which is TOTALLY counter to the premise." you are implying that Jesus would punish those who don't believe in him...

Or that Christians smoke, drink, and get fat more than the rest of us because they don't really believe their own drivel about respecting their body as god's temple. :shrug:


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2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
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4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Diploid]
    #8549850 - 06/22/08 05:05 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Leibniz isn't trying to combine mysticism and physics, it's just unfortunate that he felt compelled to add God into the equation of what otherwise is an interesting theory. In fact Leibniz wasn't really a religious man, but was caught between the Protestant and Catholic sides, both of which sought his favour. To be taken seriously, and indeed to avoid being burnt at the stake, it was important to include God in any scientific or philosophical theory you made at the time.

Rene Descartes, a slightly earlier contemporary of Leibniz for instance wrote a massive all-encompassing book of science called 'Le Monde' that was based on the Copernican / Galileo theory that the world revolved around the sun. After Galileo was forced to recant his theory and lived under the threat of arrest and death from the Church, Descartes was forced to burn his entire work, and then rewrite it with 'God' stuck in a few places to avoid getting in trouble.

I know there are a few weird terms in there, i know 'soul' is used for instance, but he quickly changes this to 'entelechy', and by both terms he simply means -that which defines oneself-, no religious conotation there. In fact the God he mentions simply rises out of the problem that if the monads need initial properties in order to function, then you need something to create or decide upon those properties. That in itself requires a creator, if not an old man with a white beard, at least something that represents an uncaused-cause.

... in case you didn't realise i just finished a paper on Leibniz so im a bit Leibniz hyper at the moment. And i should be studying for other stuff instead of going on and on in this thread... im just procrastinating


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: undergrounder]
    #8549891 - 06/22/08 05:40 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Leibniz is my favourite 17th century savant  :rockon:


--------------------
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8554338 - 06/23/08 12:55 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Besides that subjectivity can have a significant influence on health (see placebo), Jesus would nowadays just tell you about the best and most efficient way of healing and caring for your body and specific diseases and so send you to a nice doctor... (like someone else said 'caring and honor' g*d's' temple)
Sticking in the past does no good even for religions, or spirituality...
All has to be transferred into the now.

So nowadays it could sound like this: If you are ill/injured and there's no immediate help around, just don't loose hope so your body could sustain longer for you to be finally found by (or you finally can get to) someone who can help you...

At least that's how I see it. Keep it simple folks :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #8554376 - 06/23/08 01:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:

All has to be transferred into the now.




Yeah, especially since he didnt return within his disciples life time like he promised.;)

Mathew 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8554497 - 06/23/08 01:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Depends on how you define "shall". :tongue:


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2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
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4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Diploid]
    #8554574 - 06/23/08 02:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Mark 9:1
Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come in power.

:macdre:


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8554800 - 06/23/08 03:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Depends on how you define 'taste death' :wink:

edit: and 'generation' and 'pass'.. hehe


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (06/23/08 03:34 PM)

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #8554951 - 06/23/08 04:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:eek:Oh shit what about reincarnation?


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8554996 - 06/23/08 04:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Indeededly I would have to search my archives where to prove that this has been taken out from the bible at some catholic council. But maybe somebody else can help out on the fast run ...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #8556109 - 06/23/08 08:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Nope, there are still plenty of references to reincarnation spread throughout the new, and old testament. If you ever run into a hasidic (sp?) jew, take the opportunity to discuss their view of the afterlife. The Talmud can also be fascinating, if you can find any of it translated into english.


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8556607 - 06/23/08 11:22 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I wish I had gotten into this thread earlier. Alot of interesting stuff has been brought up.

For a year I believed (in the agnostic sense of suspended belief) that if "God" was real, "God" would be defined as what started the big bang, much like another poster said a couple pages back.

Then I took a philosophy class and learned that a "true" agnostic not only takes no stance, but as a part of his ethics chooses to not even concern himself with theoretical issues such as God. Now I'm atheist.

In my old "belief" I would have said God isn't like what the majority think of. Now I have a more grown up idea of it. It wouldn't be called God at all, but a force of nature, or at least something along that line.

I feel that that is the only way God will be argued for in the future, but as I just said, I would assign this as another force (like gravity) to think on and break down with the power of our intellect and tools.


--------------------
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I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8556778 - 06/24/08 12:22 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I am totally stupefied by Christians. Which part is difficult for them to grok:

Premise: Jesus can heal any illness for those who have faith in him.

Christians claim to believe in Jesus.

Christian health is somewhat worse than atheists/agnostics which is TOTALLY counter to the premise.

Where is the cognizant dissonance?




Jesus is not a manifesting part of the Christian godhead that descends upon the throngs of southern baptists in America to cure them. His life, death, and resurrection were sufficient for the purpose of the redemption of sin.

If you can provide any scriptural foundation for your premise that Jesus would continue to heal the sick after his resurrection, please post it.

The Christian God, if anything, demonstrates throughout scripture that you have the ultimate choice in your life. He doesn't stop the killing, raping, warmongering, and other atrocities in the world because interference in choice and free will is the negation of it. Why would he cure a fat person's diabetes?

I'm pretty sure it is well documented that you're not supposed to test the work of god by relying on it after you fuck up, either.



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Edited by Crasher (06/24/08 12:52 AM)

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8557559 - 06/24/08 08:39 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Considering Jesus seems to have supported the concept of reincarnation by identifying John The Baptist as Elijah, I'd say that is a plausible answer to that particular question.


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8557571 - 06/24/08 08:43 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

And here we have jesus telling us we can do anything.

I'm a novice to the whole field but, isn't this statement supported by quantum physics?


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8557583 - 06/24/08 08:49 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

No, the conceptualized mathematical absurdities we find on the subatomic scale do not directly correlate to reality.


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8557598 - 06/24/08 08:55 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

No, the conceptualized mathematical absurdities we find on the subatomic scale do not directly correlate to reality.

Hmm, so you are saying that elephants really can turn invisible and I'm not completely crazy?

But seriously I have no idea what that means, and honestly I made that statement based off my limited understanding of the book "What the Bleep do We Know"


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8557600 - 06/24/08 08:57 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Basically, its just math....although Ive got a few mushrooms that would disagree with me.:shrug:


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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Crasher]
    #8558120 - 06/24/08 11:54 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Crasher said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I am totally stupefied by Christians. Which part is difficult for them to grok:

Premise: Jesus can heal any illness for those who have faith in him.

Christians claim to believe in Jesus.

Christian health is somewhat worse than atheists/agnostics which is TOTALLY counter to the premise.

Where is the cognizant dissonance?




Jesus is not a manifesting part of the Christian godhead that descends upon the throngs of southern baptists in America to cure them. His life, death, and resurrection were sufficient for the purpose of the redemption of sin.

If you can provide any scriptural foundation for your premise that Jesus would continue to heal the sick after his resurrection, please post it.

The Christian God, if anything, demonstrates throughout scripture that you have the ultimate choice in your life. He doesn't stop the killing, raping, warmongering, and other atrocities in the world because interference in choice and free will is the negation of it. Why would he cure a fat person's diabetes?

I'm pretty sure it is well documented that you're not supposed to test the work of god by relying on it after you fuck up, either.







Been there, done that.

Orgone refuses to support his premise.

Others have posted some citations.

The only thing I recall is some words saying "if you believe it you have it" and when moses is speaking to the folks after the exodous from egypt and telling them god would heal their diseases and keep them well.

The first is hard to understand, but just seems like some metaphysical statement, and the later is by moses, not god, and was addressing the choosen folks who were freed from egypt. I think its a stretch to say that something moses said to his wanderers, who recieved special treatment througout that has never been promised to anyone else, is somehow guarenteed, from god, to everyone.

I think its kinda silly to make a thread with an obvious premise not addressed, which you correctly identify.

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: johnm214]
    #8558434 - 06/24/08 01:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Everything relevant has already been posted, your more than welcome to artfully interpret the multiple examples of word for word scripture, but its pretty poor form to continue the debate.

"faith" and honest analysis dont exactly go together. As far as any assumptions about atheist health, maybe you missed all of this from earlier in the thread.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8543739#Post8543739


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