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OfflineChemy
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8548950 - 06/21/08 09:43 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
Quote:

Chemy said:
Quote:

zouden said:
I was taught the Bohr model - yes I know it's like 80 years old now but I didn't think it had been superseded by anything else, at least, it works well enough to describe the shape of the orbitals etc, which was enough for chemistry students, as you said.
So what's new in the atomic theory that I missed?



What's new since the Bohr model? Jesus, everything, I guess, 



We still use the bohr model, because for the most part it produces accurate results. However ts just a conceptual idea that allows us to visualize a mathematical function. Its not that there is nothing there, but its not a (in theory) a solid thing like a desk, or the moon. I think the current view is to look at it as a non localized wave function. :crazy2:

The bohr model is a perfectly reasonable way to visualize it though.



Wasn't the bohr diameter of hydrogen proven to be wrong? Like as in hydrogen is twice the diameter?

The Bohr model really doesn't apply to quantum mechanics nowadays does it? I mean you can just buy 3d modeling software that completes all the calculations right? The Bohr model may have proven useful back when scientists used slide rules to calculate.

I have no idea:shrug:


--------------------
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Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: zouden]
    #8548951 - 06/21/08 09:43 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

:dontspillme:


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Edited by blewmeanie (01/23/10 02:42 PM)

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OfflineChemy
Jesus is Lord

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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8548960 - 06/21/08 09:48 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Ahhhhhh, it's been so damn long, now I found this on wikipedia and this is correct the valence shell is used now in quantum mechanics:

Quote:

the Bohr model is still commonly taught to introduce students to quantum mechanics, before moving on to the more accurate but more complex valence shell atom




--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous

Narcotics Anonymous

Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: johnm214]
    #8549009 - 06/21/08 10:13 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:


Again, I'm not saying Jesus never said this, but I don't know that he did, and Orgone or anyone else has not shown the promise he's alluded to.

Where is it?




Deuteronomy 7:15
The lord will keep you free from every disease. He will not inflict on you the horrible diseases you knew in Egypt, but he will inflict them on all who hate you.

Mathew 18:19
Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.

Mark 11:24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

:grin:


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8549081 - 06/21/08 10:49 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Well the first one is Moses, the second one is unclear to me... are they saying it will be done for you in heaven or done  by god, in heaven?  I would imagine they mean heaven, as certainly it would make no sense to promise people anything they wanted- clearly provably false at any instant in time and ridiculous.  Could this really be what is meant?

The third is interesting though, as it was jesus that said it, by my reading.  What does this mean? Is jesus really making a testable prediction, or really just saying that if you believe you got something you do?  Kinda weird...  Maybe he was saying in heaven you get that stuff? Or was he just making a philosophical statement, that you have what you believe you have?  As an abstract consequence, the only out is that if you don't have something you don't believe in it enough :smirk:


I'm not sure what the others really mean, but the first one seems like a legit statement by Moses.  Since moses got the famous tablets, I guess you could use him in place of god...

Trouble is he was promising not to us, my reading, but to the sinners to whom he delivered the tablets.  He was saying if they ('you' in the text) reformed they would no longer suffer their plagues (like he delivered to these folks in Egypt) and illnesses, is my understanding.  I don't think this could be used to determine that god promised everyone health, but that god promised those folks(the freed slaves/children of israel)  health, so long as they followed his comandments.  Now surely that promise was broken, some had to get sick, but I don't know its fair to apply to us today, since moses was addressing the sinners, not us.

Quote:

And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.



Deuteronomy 5:1

Quote:

11:...Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.

12Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:




Deuteronomy 7


If someone wants to criticize my reasoning, feel free.  I'm not confident re: the last 2 what was really being said.

Unless jesus was promising everyone anything they wanted, I don't think there's yet support for the notion the bible promises you health.  And even if Jesus was saying you get everything here and now, you just must not believe enough that your free of diabetes, otherwise you'd be cured :smirk:

I don't know... what do you guys think about the "believe it and you've got it" statement?

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Offlineundergrounder
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8549118 - 06/21/08 11:06 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
Well you assume that the big bang theory is fact when it is simply a model built from our best current observations. There are problems with it though, for instance the current model predicts a higher level of CMBR than we  currently measure.

...

Again you assume there is a time before the big bang, why allocate a quality to something you see no evidence for?





No i didn't, i thought i made it clear there is no time before the big bang:

Quote:

Undergrounder said:
Space and Time started at that one point, there's no -before- in a traditional sense, but how does science explain what caused the Big Bang?




Again, space and time started from that point... call it a singularity. And there's no before in a traditional sense as i said, but in a discussion we're more than allowed to at least think about time in terms of causes, if only to make progress on the matter and as long as everyone understands the context in which they use their terms.

By the way i don't know if you actually figured it out yet, but this isn't a religious belief, this is a philosophy and an early form of physics.. it's not correct, and i'm not saying it is, so there's no need to rap me over the knuckles because it doesn't sound like a scientific theory today, this is the philosophy forum after all. Don't expect to gain any credit saying that an alternate cosmology written in 1714 is "no less ridiculous than anything else" today, 300 years later. You should catch yourself before saying it's as worthless as the turtle-back theory, however, as it is still widely praised and highly regarded, despite 300 years of scientific 'discovery'.

The reason i think you (and most people) find it strange is because it's written as a scientific theory in 1714 in the same way String Theory was written as a scientific theory in the 1970s - as much philosophy as science. That is, after all, what we're all talking about with protons being real or un-real, at this level of abstraction it all comes down to philosophy and logical juxtapositions just as much as science. The genius of the monadology though is that it was devised through pure logic alone. And the amazing thing is, this theory turned out to be more correct than any scientific theory of the day, and indeed more correct than any other for two whole centuries. Although it looks strange at first glance, there's more in it than you give it credit for, and theoretical physicists have held Leibniz in the highest regard for decades.

I'm pretty amazed in your quick look where you didn't understand it, that you were able to conclude that it was total rubbish. Maybe you found in there something that noone else knows? I think you should give Lee Smolin an email for starters so you can set the record straight on how Leibniz's monadology is only as valid as that of the world on a turtle's back:

"The right, and indeed only scientifically coherent, view of space and time is the relational view championed by Newton's rival, Leibniz. In the 20th Century this became the basis of Einstein'g theory of general relativity, the first theory in which space and time are genuinely relational. Einstein and Leibniz both realised that position and motion have no meaning except relative to other things in the Universe, and that time has no meaning or measure except relative to some physical process which we use as a clock..."

- Smolin, L. (2003) Philosophical Transactions: Mathematical, Physical and Engineering Sciences. Self-Organization: The Quest for the Origin and Evolution of Structure, Vol. 361, No. 1807, pp. 1081 - 1088

From there maybe you can explain how Einstein is rubbish and even how Quantum Mechanics is rubbish:

"Dear Sir: There has recently appeared in this journal a very interesting paper by Professor J. B. S. Haldane, entitled, "Quantum Mechanics as a basis for Philosophy." The paper might indeed be called, "Leibniz as a basis for Quantum Mechanics". The name of Leibniz does not occur once in the article, yet it is permeated with his spirit, and is just such a document as an orthodox Leibnizian might write should he be confronted with the development of mathematics and experimental science in the two centuries since the death of the master..."

- Wiener, N. (1934). Quantum Mechanics, Haldance, and Leibniz. Philosophy of Science, Vol. 1, No. 4, pp. 179 - 482.

Anyway... im realising this is a 'debate' between empiricism and rationalism now just as much as it was back then. That we can know the universe through rational logic and that we can only know the universe through empirical study. I should note that both sides have victories, but neither side is rubbish. This video seems kind of pertinent: At least see the first minute, or for the Leibniz stuff, from 3 mins.



By the way what the fuck did this have to do with Christians and diabetes? oh yes.. the original point still stands ... Under a model where God is seen as a 'creator' not as an ongoing arbiter of all life, he can still be tri-omni and answer all the questions of the OP regarding why He doesn't intervene in suffering.

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: johnm214]
    #8549139 - 06/21/08 11:18 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

:dontspillme:


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Edited by blewmeanie (01/23/10 02:32 PM)

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OfflinePillar
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8549143 - 06/21/08 11:19 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I am totally stupefied by Christians. Which part is difficult for them to grok:

Premise: Jesus can heal any illness for those who have faith in him.

Christians claim to believe in Jesus.

Christian health is somewhat worse than atheists/agnostics which is TOTALLY counter to the premise.

Where is the cognizant dissonance?






Just to clarify, I think by saying that "Christian health is somewhat worse than atheists/agnostics which is TOTALLY counter to the premise." you are implying that Jesus would punish those who don't believe in him...


Did I get you right?


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-----PILLAR-----
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OfflinePillar
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Pillar]
    #8549150 - 06/21/08 11:21 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Also you incorrectly assume that someone who goes to church has faith. Just to point out.


--------------------
-----PILLAR-----
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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: undergrounder]
    #8549214 - 06/21/08 11:58 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

undergrounder said:

No i didn't, i thought i made it clear there is no time before the big bang:




Your right, I misunderstood. My mistake:grin:
Quote:


so there's no need to rap me over the knuckles because it doesn't sound like a scientific theory today




I wasnt rapping you over the knuckles, just disagreeing. Relax

Quote:


The reason i think you (and most people) find it strange is because it's written as a scientific theory in 1714 in the same way String Theory was written as a scientific theory in the 1970s - as much philosophy as science. That is, after all, what we're all talking about with protons being real or un-real




I dont find it strange at all, I do find it illogical that people relate to(im not saying you do)300 year old conjecture filled with gnostic terminology as if it were a sound model.(again I understand thats not what you were doing)

The example of protons and neutrons cant really be compared to a monad as they are the a conceptual demonstration of a mathematical function, rather than an effort to combine mysticism and physics. I would have to agree with you that he does seem quite insightful for his time. Modern science sounds more and more like the mysticism of old every day.

Quote:


The genius of the monadology though is that it was devised through pure logic alone.




Check out some of the early gnostic thoughts on the nature of god if you havent already done so, they are very similar, and even use the same terminology.

Quote:


For starters if you think you know something Lee Smolin doesn't maybe you should tell him why Leibniz's monadology is only as valid as the world on a turtle's back:




Are you suggesting that the turtle back theory is invalid? :mad2:


Quote:


By the way what the fuck did this have to do with Christians and diabetes?




lol your right it has gotten pretty far off topic :tongue:

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Pillar]
    #8549741 - 06/22/08 03:41 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Just to clarify, I think by saying that "Christian health is somewhat worse than atheists/agnostics which is TOTALLY counter to the premise." you are implying that Jesus would punish those who don't believe in him...

Or that Christians smoke, drink, and get fat more than the rest of us because they don't really believe their own drivel about respecting their body as god's temple. :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlineundergrounder
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Diploid]
    #8549850 - 06/22/08 05:05 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Leibniz isn't trying to combine mysticism and physics, it's just unfortunate that he felt compelled to add God into the equation of what otherwise is an interesting theory. In fact Leibniz wasn't really a religious man, but was caught between the Protestant and Catholic sides, both of which sought his favour. To be taken seriously, and indeed to avoid being burnt at the stake, it was important to include God in any scientific or philosophical theory you made at the time.

Rene Descartes, a slightly earlier contemporary of Leibniz for instance wrote a massive all-encompassing book of science called 'Le Monde' that was based on the Copernican / Galileo theory that the world revolved around the sun. After Galileo was forced to recant his theory and lived under the threat of arrest and death from the Church, Descartes was forced to burn his entire work, and then rewrite it with 'God' stuck in a few places to avoid getting in trouble.

I know there are a few weird terms in there, i know 'soul' is used for instance, but he quickly changes this to 'entelechy', and by both terms he simply means -that which defines oneself-, no religious conotation there. In fact the God he mentions simply rises out of the problem that if the monads need initial properties in order to function, then you need something to create or decide upon those properties. That in itself requires a creator, if not an old man with a white beard, at least something that represents an uncaused-cause.

... in case you didn't realise i just finished a paper on Leibniz so im a bit Leibniz hyper at the moment. And i should be studying for other stuff instead of going on and on in this thread... im just procrastinating


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: undergrounder]
    #8549891 - 06/22/08 05:40 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Leibniz is my favourite 17th century savant  :rockon:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8554338 - 06/23/08 12:55 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Besides that subjectivity can have a significant influence on health (see placebo), Jesus would nowadays just tell you about the best and most efficient way of healing and caring for your body and specific diseases and so send you to a nice doctor... (like someone else said 'caring and honor' g*d's' temple)
Sticking in the past does no good even for religions, or spirituality...
All has to be transferred into the now.

So nowadays it could sound like this: If you are ill/injured and there's no immediate help around, just don't loose hope so your body could sustain longer for you to be finally found by (or you finally can get to) someone who can help you...

At least that's how I see it. Keep it simple folks :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #8554376 - 06/23/08 01:03 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:

All has to be transferred into the now.




Yeah, especially since he didnt return within his disciples life time like he promised.;)

Mathew 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8554497 - 06/23/08 01:40 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Depends on how you define "shall". :tongue:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Diploid]
    #8554574 - 06/23/08 02:09 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Mark 9:1
Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come in power.

:macdre:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8554800 - 06/23/08 03:25 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Depends on how you define 'taste death' :wink:

edit: and 'generation' and 'pass'.. hehe


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (06/23/08 03:34 PM)

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #8554951 - 06/23/08 04:06 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

:eek:Oh shit what about reincarnation?


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8554996 - 06/23/08 04:19 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Indeededly I would have to search my archives where to prove that this has been taken out from the bible at some catholic council. But maybe somebody else can help out on the fast run ...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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