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Offlinezouden
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8548514 - 06/21/08 07:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Well you assume that the big bang theory is fact when it is simply a model built from our best current observations. There are problems with it though, for instance the current model predicts a higher level of CMBR than we  currently measure.



Really? I thought it matched exactly, which is why you can buy t-shirts printed with the data from the COBE mission, since it was such a success.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: zouden]
    #8548607 - 06/21/08 07:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Its most likely correct, the model just isnt perfect.

Allot of people have considerable misconceptions about the "big bang theory" as well. It isnt necessarily an event that happened at a specific location in space, and doesnt have to be considered an event that happened in space-time. Its really just the name for the point at which the time coordinate of the coordinate system goes to zero. Its really all just math, and for now allot of it is still over my head.

However if "god" was taking bets, the big bang theory is where I would put my money. I really wish they would explain to student in school how they draw these conclusions and form these theory's though though, there are just so many misconceptions. Most people actually think of protons, electrons, and the diagram that we use to represent the inner workings of an atom as real objects, rather than the properties that have been found to be mathematically provable. (Which is all they really are) It really made math allot more fun for me when I started studying it.


--------------------
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Offlinezouden
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8548708 - 06/21/08 08:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

But protons and electrons are real objects.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: zouden]
    #8548716 - 06/21/08 08:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Thank you for proving my point. :thumbdown: for public education.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8548746 - 06/21/08 08:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I don't understand what you mean. A proton is not just an expression of the Schrodinger equation - it is a real, measurable object that exists in the physical world.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineChemy
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: zouden]
    #8548752 - 06/21/08 08:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
But protons and electrons are real objects.



There is alot more physics and particles in an atom than what you have studied in chem class, what you are taught with the models in class are nothing like actual atoms and molecules. You already know that though and this physics stuff is way over my head no wonder I dropped out:thumbdown:


--------------------
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God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Chemy]
    #8548768 - 06/21/08 08:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I was taught the Bohr model - yes I know it's like 80 years old now but I didn't think it had been superseded by anything else, at least, it works well enough to describe the shape of the orbitals etc, which was enough for chemistry students, as you said.
So what's new in the atomic theory that I missed?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineChemy
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: zouden]
    #8548783 - 06/21/08 08:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
I was taught the Bohr model - yes I know it's like 80 years old now but I didn't think it had been superseded by anything else, at least, it works well enough to describe the shape of the orbitals etc, which was enough for chemistry students, as you said.
So what's new in the atomic theory that I missed?



What's new since the Bohr model? Jesus, everything, I guess,


--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous

Narcotics Anonymous

Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: WordlessNature]
    #8548805 - 06/21/08 08:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

WordlessNature said:
James 5:15-16

"15 And their prayer offered in faith will heal the sick, and the Lord will make them well. And anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven.

16 Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and wonderful results."

I will fairly assume that OrgoneConclusion was not being precise, and used the term "Jesus" to apply to the Christian faith in general.

This being the case, I believe I have supplied the evidence you requested.





This was James speaking to the Israelites, I believe.

While I'll grant you that the biblical folk take the bible to be the word of god, however; this is not how I view it: the word of god is what god said, and not what some shmuck said, so god never promised anything if we accept the bible.

I guess its kinda tricky.  You are absolutly right that people view the bible as word of god, however; I think that's bullshit: the bible is just a bunch of testimony and stories, and god is what god is, not what someone said he is.


So I'd still say that god never promised healing to the sick.

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Nope. These are not my reasons, but actual quotes. Of course, every single one denies Christ's teachings of faith, healing and wellness, but what the heck, got to make excuses to keep the delusion going.


I won't even mention that diabetes is higher in the Bible Belt and in Baptists in particular. Oops! I just mentioned it, didn't I?  Bad OC. :mad2:




So Orgone, or anyone else, where did Christ/God promise to heal the sick if they pray or whatever?

This is one of my criticisms of some discussion in this forum:  A bunch of what-ifs and loose logic.  If Orgone claims Jesus promised something he should demonstrate it.

Again, I'm not saying Jesus never said this, but I don't know that he did, and Orgone or anyone else has not shown the promise he's alluded to.

Where is it?

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: johnm214]
    #8548815 - 06/21/08 09:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I guess its kinda tricky.  You are absolutly right that people view the bible as word of god, however; I think that's bullshit: the bible is just a bunch of testimony and stories, and god is what god is, not what someone said he is.


So I'd still say that god never promised healing to the sick.



That's because you're not a fundamentalist - that minority of Christians who make the rest look bad.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: zouden]
    #8548830 - 06/21/08 09:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Lest I be misunderstood, I'm also not a christian and don't view the bible as the word of god.

Just saying that if I was a christian and revered the bible, of which I've read, I wouldn't simply accept every fucking verse in the whole thing at face value.

When god promises something fine... When James or some random dude is quoted- that's not the word of god and means nothing except some politician elected to include the passage.


My criticism still stands though... Orgone didn't demonstrate that god ever promised healing the sick, and hasn't even shown how his conclusions are valid: how faith is destroyed by illness or whatnot...

Thus it was a poor post, and he's not answered my criticism yet

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: johnm214]
    #8548842 - 06/21/08 09:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You don't believe that God ever promised he'd heal the sick (and I'm inclined to believe you since you've done the research) but that doesn't change the fact that many, many people do believe that God actually said that.

The Christians who believe the Bible is the literal word of God, yet haven't actually read it, are the worst kind of Christians.

BTW I thought you were a Christian? Or do you just believe in a God?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: zouden]
    #8548888 - 06/21/08 09:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

But protons and electrons are real objects.

Protons and electrons are theoretical constructs that appear to represent real objects. No one has ever seen a proton and it's incorrect to state that they really are real things.

They are theoretical things that do not even posses the property called "its location". Is is not possible to know where any given proton is exactly. All that can be stated is the probability that a proton is at a given point in space.

What's even more mind blowing is that any given proton has a non-zero probability of existing in every point in the universe. In other words, a proton that is observed at the tip of your finger has a 99.999999% probability of actually being at the tip of your finger the next time it's observed and a 0.0000000001% probability of being somewhere near Saturn the next time it's observed.

These numbers are made up, but they illustrate the idea that protons do not have the property called "its location". They're at every point in all of space at the same time in what's called Quantum Superposition, with the highest probability of being at the point in space where you expect them to be.

I think that's pretty cool and it's amazing things like this that make me wonder why some people prefer to cling to made up superstition and mysticism and religion when the real world is so much more interesting.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Diploid]
    #8548923 - 06/21/08 09:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Would you have said the same thing about atoms, before they built microscopes capable of seeing them? Just because we can't see protons, doesn't mean they aren't there. They have mass and charge and we can create them and destroy them and hurl them at metal plates and track them through bubble chambers. They are as real as atoms*.

*make of that what you will


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: zouden]
    #8548924 - 06/21/08 09:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Nope, not a christian.  I've read the bible though cuz I'm interested in it, and have been to church.  I wouldn't feel too confident in my understanding that jesus/god never promised to heal folks though, it's been a few years since i"ve read the bible and don't feel confident he never did, I just think he didn't- and it should be the thread starter's burden to show this.  The bible is also long, confusing, and contradictory, so it'd be easy to miss.




I just don't believe that the bible is credible, the verses were inserted democratically, and the chain of custody is very weak.  I believe in a rational god out of neccesity- what's the use of trying to please an irrational one?  If a rational god wanted to reveal his instructions to me, he could do much better than transmitting a book full of conflicting messages to me written in a language I don't speak.  I'm confident god could send me a letter or something, or maybe release an instruction manual, in english, if he wanted to talk to me.  I refuse to believe god is like a child who wants us to devine his intentions or will act vengefully for no damn reason, i.e. send us to hell.


I believe in god, just not how the christians do.

I agree that the worst kind of christians are those who haven't read the bible but act like they know what it says.  Read leviticus for some weird laws (also where the ban on homosexuality comes from, most clear one at least).  Somehow we allow women to wear gold, people in wheelchairs to go the alter and recieve communion, and take the name of god in vain without death (including in church), but we're supposed to ban gays being married? I don't see how we can ignore a whole book of the bible save for the one part we like.

If we're going to follow leviticus and other books, we should be stoning blasphemers, banning women from wearing gold, banning women from speaking in church (take that you horrible choir ladies), and all sorts of other stupid things... Why aren't we?  Somehow the gays are the only ones we must persecute?

THe worst of the worst are those christians who make shit up and blame it on the bible.

Things like no premarital sex.  Where is that in the bible?  Answer: it's not.  The bible never says you can't screw around, just says no adultry and not immoral or unnatural acts: which I presume means molestation, sex out of marriage, or sex with animals.

Yet preachers tell kids they'll sin if they have sex before marriage... bullshit.

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Chemy]
    #8548927 - 06/21/08 09:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:dontspillme:


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Edited by blewmeanie (01/23/10 02:42 PM)

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: zouden]
    #8548929 - 06/21/08 09:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Would you have said the same thing about atoms, before they built microscopes capable of seeing them?

Atoms have never been seen. What those microscopes detect are electromagnetic wave packets that correlate well with atomic theory. Atoms are theoretical constructs. No one has ever seen one.

This is all taught in second year physics in university.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Diploid]
    #8548937 - 06/21/08 09:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
But protons and electrons are real objects.

Protons and electrons are theoretical constructs that appear to represent real objects. No one has ever seen a proton and it's incorrect to state that they really are real things.

They are theoretical things that do not even posses the property called "its location". Is is not possible to know where any given proton is exactly. All that can be stated is the probability that a proton is at a given point in space.

What's even more mind blowing is that any given proton has a non-zero probability of existing in every point in the universe. In other words, a proton that is observed at the tip of your finger has a 99.999999% probability of actually being at the tip of your finger the next time it's observed and a 0.0000000001% probability of being somewhere near Saturn the next time it's observed.

These numbers are made up, but they illustrate the idea that protons do not have the property called "its location". They're at every point in all of space at the same time in what's called Quantum Superposition, with the highest probability of being at the point in space where you expect them to be.

I think that's pretty cool and it's amazing things like this that make me wonder why some people prefer to cling to made up superstition and mysticism and religion when the real world is so much more interesting.





protons are real.  We may not know everything about them but we know plenty.  We can reliably predict their numbers and location et cet.

That the exact location doesn't exist, my understanding, or at least is unidentifiable is irrelevant, the same is true of  the big mac- so what?

Protons exist.  I use them to clean shit and can reliably calculate their activity in a solution, so there.

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Diploid]
    #8548939 - 06/21/08 09:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:

I think that's pretty cool and it's amazing things like this that make me wonder why some people prefer to cling to made up superstition and mysticism and religion when the real world is so much more interesting.



I couldnt have said it better, science is awesome, and far more mysterious than any religion.:yesnod:


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8548940 - 06/21/08 09:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
We still use the bohr model, because for the most part it produces accurate results. However ts just a conceptual idea that allows us to visualize a mathematical function. Its not that there is nothing there, but its not a (in theory) a solid thing like a desk, or the moon. I think the current view is to look at it as a non localized wave function. :crazy2:

The bohr model is a perfectly reasonable way to visualize it though.



That makes sense to me.

As an aside, I think the Copenhagen interpretation says that even a desk or the moon has a wave function. I just wish I could de-localise my desk's wave function and then localise it in a better spot...

Quote:

Diploid said:
Would you have said the same thing about atoms, before they built microscopes capable of seeing them?

Atoms have never been seen. What those microscopes detect are electromagnetic wave packets that appear to represent atoms. They are theoretical constructs.

This is all taught in second year physics in university.



That's close enough to being 'seen' for me, in the same way that when I use a microscope at work I'm merely looking at electromagnetic wave packets that appear to represent neural stem cells.

Edited by zouden (06/21/08 09:45 PM)

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