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InvisibleAfroshroomerican
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Loc: Pennsylvania
Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: undergrounder]
    #8545446 - 06/20/08 07:23 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

To the OP:
Why the hell do you hate religion SO MUCH?

Your anti-religious preachings are as bad as the suppositions of Christian missionaries.  The goal is inverted, but in the same spectrum, really.  It's almost like you're on an anti-religious crusade and are willing to find any discrepancy you can to invalidate belief systems.

Do you feel superior to religious people because they are "illogical"?

I will tell you this:  Your argument isn't creative and has been used almost verbatim.


I'm not a Christian, but if I wanted to play devil's advocate, I could say: Well, Christians die earlier because they have fulfilled their goals on earth and are ready to be welcomed to the Kingdom.  And you really couldn't discredit me because no one knows for sure whether a  divine entities exists or does not; it would be my belief.


--------------------
"We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools."

~Martin Luther King Jr.~

<passitbobbie> if I just showed you a closeup of my ass
<passitbobbie> youd think it was female

"You owe errrbody up in here an apology fow youwe shit, HO!" - classic

Edited by Afroshroomerican (06/20/08 07:25 PM)

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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Cannashroom]
    #8545450 - 06/20/08 07:24 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Now, if you read the bible as a story about lots of people taking drugs, all those crazy stories start to make a lot more sense.

If you realize that Jesus is an entheogen (which "creates god within") then it makes a lot more sense that the only true path to god is through Jesus Christ.

The original entheogen jesus personified was amanita muscaria, google the pharmacratic inquisition if you are interested.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Posts: 28,984
Loc: Flag
Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Cannashroom]
    #8545453 - 06/20/08 07:26 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

Edited by blewmeanie (02/02/10 11:10 AM)

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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8545481 - 06/20/08 07:36 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Well, here is two guys production about how Jesus is the drugs [url=
&q=&hl=en]The Pharmacratic Inquisition[/url]

It is the result of years of their research, as well as the works of John Marco Allegro on the Dead Sea Scrolls.

This is the first part of twelve on youtube, just search for pharmacratic inquisition.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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InvisibleAfroshroomerican
Oprah's Minion
Male


Registered: 05/12/06
Posts: 891
Loc: Pennsylvania
Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Cannashroom]
    #8545501 - 06/20/08 07:46 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

1)  There is no God; there is only logic and math! :blah:

2) Religion is so illogical and believers are of inferior intelligence:  :blah:  :blah:

3) Religious people die, so it's obvious god ain't savin' em!  :blah:  :blah:  :blah:

4) Everyone ate poisoned rye, mushrooms, etc etc (been said YEARS before that video)  :blah:  :blah:  :blah:  :blah:

5) God doesn't exist; may everyone convert to our way of thinking despite having no proof of non-existence  :blah:  :blah:  :blah:  :blah:  :blah:  :blah:

:beatadeadhorse:


--------------------
"We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools."

~Martin Luther King Jr.~

<passitbobbie> if I just showed you a closeup of my ass
<passitbobbie> youd think it was female

"You owe errrbody up in here an apology fow youwe shit, HO!" - classic

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8545536 - 06/20/08 07:59 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Folks, if you don't like the topic, stop participating.

Joining the discussion for the sole purpose of adding noise about how much you don't like the discussion is pointless and wastes everyone's time. It's called derailing and it's against the rules.

Either participate constructively or don't participate at all.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Afroshroomerican]
    #8545565 - 06/20/08 08:09 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

God doesn't exist; may everyone convert to our way of thinking despite having no proof of non-existence




*sigh*  You cannot prove non-existence.  A lack of proof of non-existence means exactly nothing.  The burden of proof is on the claimant, and thus far _________________.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Veritas]
    #8545807 - 06/20/08 10:00 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Oh no! God smote Veritas before she could finish her post!


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Afroshroomerican]
    #8545856 - 06/20/08 10:34 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I will tell you this:  Your argument isn't creative and has been used almost verbatim.




Why not refute my point with an actual argument instead of noise? There was no claim of originality.

Look, I am an advocate of fitness and can lay out a program that will have a positive affect on any who participate. Period. No lame excuses or reasons why my methods won't work.

Christians claim that Jesus heals and that prayer works and I take those as a premise and look for the positive health effects on the group. There just plain aren't any.


--------------------

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8545883 - 06/20/08 10:46 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I'd like to again point out that the entire premise of this threat, that suffering preventable by god is somehow contrary to what is promised to the faithful, is unsupported by this thread.

Orgone, why don't you back up your premise?  I see nothing in this thread where you've shown where the bible or whatever promises things different than you've claimed to contradict faith and all that jazz.

Prior post:

Quote:

Quote:

johnm214 said:
[
I don't think you've made a valid point.

Support your premise that the bible says god will heal his followers if they pray enough or whatever.  Diabetes could be said to directly support faith, as would all illnesses.  I'm reminded of the story of job and god showing satan he wouldn't loose faith.

I don't see how illness cuts against faith at all.


So show where the bible promises health and healing in exchange for being a good christian?






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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8545890 - 06/20/08 10:48 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I am totally stupefied by Christians. Which part is difficult for them to grok:

Premise: Jesus can heal any illness for those who have faith in him.

Christians claim to believe in Jesus.

Christian health is somewhat worse than atheists/agnostics which is TOTALLY counter to the premise.

Where is the cognizant dissonance?





Where is the cognizant dissonance?

Is this the question you are offering for discussion.

Heres my premise:


Not all people who describe themselves as Christian believe that Jesus will heal them if they believe in him. Some do.

My conclusion:

Some Christians display cognizant dissonance.

Maybe you should post this in the Shroomery News Service.

Of course it's not really cognizant dissonance on their part, because apparently they are not aware of the disparity. Now we are. Good job Orgone, have you thought about a career as a journalist. You remind me a young Morely Safer with your hard hitting insightful writing. The world needs good town criers,  get the word out.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: falcon]
    #8545916 - 06/20/08 11:00 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

better yet, where is the evidence that Jesus is expected to heal anyone of his faithful?  I don't recall that in the bible, and Orgone hasn't pointed it out.

I'm not betting its not in there, it may be, but this whole thread is silly without him proving his premises.

It really seems like a thread based upon unclear premises and presupositions.

The bible says people have free will and must do their best, and that jesus doesn't favor the lazy....

Show me where christians could have an expectation of being free from diseases, especially diseases like type II which is usually a result of the lifestyle of the afflicted.

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OfflineWordlessNature
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: johnm214]
    #8545954 - 06/20/08 11:12 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

James 5:15-16

"15 And their prayer offered in faith will heal the sick, and the Lord will make them well. And anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven.

16 Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and wonderful results."

I will fairly assume that OrgoneConclusion was not being precise, and used the term "Jesus" to apply to the Christian faith in general.

This being the case, I believe I have supplied the evidence you requested.


--------------------

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Offlineigwna
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Registered: 06/19/07
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8545975 - 06/20/08 11:19 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
6. God used that time (multiple hospitilizations for diabetic complications) to show me that I needed to take Him more seriously.




how could one love a "God" that put them through misery to get his message of love across?


--------------------
I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.


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Offlineundergrounder
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: igwna]
    #8546320 - 06/21/08 02:16 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

skcorrelyt said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
6. God used that time (multiple hospitilizations for diabetic complications) to show me that I needed to take Him more seriously.




how could one love a "God" that put them through misery to get his message of love across?




how could you love your "Mother" who sent you to your room when you were naughty because she loved you and was trying to teach you a lesson?


--------------------
:igor: RIP :igor:

Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
:pinkshroom: :supershroom: :mushroom2: :shroomer: :mushroom2: :supershroom: :pinkshroom:

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OfflineKinetic
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: undergrounder]
    #8546432 - 06/21/08 03:22 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

undergrounder said:
Quote:

skcorrelyt said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
6. God used that time (multiple hospitalizations for diabetic complications) to show me that I needed to take Him more seriously.




how could one love a "God" that put them through misery to get his message of love across?




how could you love your "Mother" who sent you to your room when you were naughty because she loved you and was trying to teach you a lesson?




How could you compare your mother to god, sending you to Ur room for a few hours? or contract a disease that burdens or ends Ur life? the effort used to send that loving disease could of been a message of salvation? not your going to die a slow painfully death from your doctor.


--------------------
"If the words 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on." - T. McKenna

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Offlineundergrounder
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Kinetic]
    #8546495 - 06/21/08 04:32 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

You can't argue that the punishment is unjustified, i mean... god is trying to save you from going to eternal damnation and getting blowtorched by demons for eternity... if it takes getting diabetes for you to get to go to heaven, maybe it is justified?

But it doesn't matter, it's the same thing... you're being punished but it's only because he/she loves you and wants you to be a better person.


--------------------
:igor: RIP :igor:

Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
:pinkshroom: :supershroom: :mushroom2: :shroomer: :mushroom2: :supershroom: :pinkshroom:

Edited by undergrounder (06/21/08 04:53 AM)

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Posts: 19,274
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: undergrounder]
    #8546520 - 06/21/08 05:16 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

god is trying to save you from going to eternal damnation and getting blowtorched

Then he's not omnipotent. He's just an ordinary entity who is easily 'blowtorched'.

In other words, he's nothing special and hardly worthy of worship.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlineundergrounder
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Diploid]
    #8546554 - 06/21/08 05:50 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
I just dont see a reason or a necessity to invent a god. I'm not even suggesting that atheism is the route to take, but why not simply observe the facts

Collect data

Examen any aparent patterns that may exist

Using these facts build a predictive model

Use the predictions about what should happen to collect more data.

Use that data to modify your model abandoning the
impossible, and keeping only what is certain

Repeat until perfect





That's fine man, but tell me how that method can explain what happened before the Big Bang for instance. Space and Time started at that one point, there's no -before- in a traditional sense, but how does science explain what caused the Big Bang? It doesn't. There is a general acceptance that science cannot theorise about what happened before then because there is no scientific way to do so - everything breaks down. So do you just forget about it and say it's not a question worth asking? If faith or belief don't work for you, then why not logic? Leibniz's God is a logical God. Not perfectly logical, there are tonnes of mistakes there, but it's interesting nonetheless.

Quote:


Your going to have to help me out, you lost me with this one. God is an equation? I think you must be using "equation" in an abstract way that I dont quite understand. Please elaborate.





I refer you back to this post for starters, and ill expand a little below...

Quote:


I just looked up monadology, and I would say its ridiculous, but its no more bizarre than any of the other new ideas about matter, and space lately. Check out physicsforums.com if your interested in such things.




LOL you looked it up did you? no idea how you could possibly understand it without a week of thinking and reading, its a pretty hard theory to understand.

It's not a new theory, it was written in 1714, before atomicism, before microscopes, around the same time as Newton, before Relativity theory, before String Theory, the same time any type of physics was being invented.

Instead of atoms, there are monads - the basic matter of the universe. Leibniz says that scale cannot continue getting infinitely smaller, there must be a limit where time and space breaks down or stops, a view many theoretical physicists hold today.

By this reasoning, then the SMALLEST particles, whatever their name, must be INDIVISIBLE. For to be divisible, means they can become smaller, which is impossible. Thus, monads must have not dimension, nor extension, nor length, nor space. That is, they must have no physical existence.

He goes on.. but they must have SOME properties, or they would not be 'things' at all... and further, they must differ in these properties, or they would all be the same thing. So how can you have a property but no mass? You OWN your PERSPECTIVE on the all the other monads nearby. Say you are a monad, then you OWN your distance to the front door as a special property of you. Similarly, if your front door was a monad, it owns this relationship from you to it. Thus, the monadology is a relational theory, whereby the fundamental units of the universe are defined by their relations to all other things, not their single position in space/time. If it helps, picture roughly each monad as a glass sphere, reflecting the world around it... Having no mass or space itself, but having a perspective of all the other monads nearby. It does not exist at a point in space, but because its perspective will differ slightly from all the others, it retains space-like properties nonetheless.

...

i could go on, but the information is out there..

If you looked up String Theory or M Theory, the basic ideas would match almost perfectly.. fundamentall, though, both involve a non-physical mathmatical reality that generates the physical reality on top of it. Newton and Leibniz had a famous argument (Leibniz vs. Clarke) that amounted to an absolute theory vs. Leibniz's relativity theory. Newton won the day, though Leibniz was proved right with Einstein's General Theory of Relativity... recent physical theories are also proving to be more and more like Leibniz's monadology.

And the important thing, Leibniz didn't own a hadron collider, or a microscope, or even a significant laboratory... he just used his head. This is how it must be, for the world to make sense. Anyway...

Concerning the God-as-equation analogy:

Think of each monad as a simple equation. Say... Z = Z2 +  C. If you run that equation, it generates devastatingly beautiful, infinite complexity:


(The Mandelbrot Set, Z = Z2 + C)


In order to create a universe of infinite complexity, God doesn't need to run around moving everything constantly and changing things and giving people diabetes, all he needs do is define a simple equation, insert the values, and let the complexity start itself. Think DNA or the Big Bang for further examples... So what God did was figure out an equation for all the monads at the start of the universe. After he defines the values, he sits back and lets the universe run itself. So what does values does he choose? He chooses the ones that bring the most good to the world out of all the possibilities. Like a chess player he can run through all the iterations of all the infinite possibilities and go... OK, Bingo - ill pick these numbers here, and let's get this universe thing going. BAM! Big Bang, the great experiment begins...

---

"In his later work, The Fabric of the Cosmos, Greene states that "the familiar notion of space and time do not extend into the sub-Planckian realm, which suggests that space and time as we currently understand them may be mere approximations to more fundamental concepts that still await our discovery."

Monads anyone?


--------------------
:igor: RIP :igor:

Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
:pinkshroom: :supershroom: :mushroom2: :shroomer: :mushroom2: :supershroom: :pinkshroom:

Edited by undergrounder (06/21/08 05:56 AM)

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: undergrounder]
    #8547251 - 06/21/08 11:31 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

undergrounder said:
Thats fine man, but tell me how that method can explain what happened before the Big Bang for instance. Space and Time started at that one point, there's no -before- in a traditional sense, but how does science explain what caused the Big Bang?





Well you assume that the big bang theory is fact when it is simply a model built from our best current observations. There are problems with it though, for instance the current model predicts a higher level of CMBR than we  currently measure.


Quote:


It doesn't. There is a general acceptance that science cannot theorise about what happened before then because there is no scientific way to do so





Again you assume there is a time before the big bang, why allocate a quality to something you see no evidence for?



Quote:


- everything breaks down. So do you just forget about it and say it's not a question worth asking? If faith or belief don't work for you, then why not logic?





Logic tells me we need more data, and assumptions are like assholes, theorizing about god seems to involve allot of them.:grin:



Quote:


LOL you looked it up did you? no idea how you could possibly understand it without a week of thinking and reading, its a pretty hard theory to understand.





I never said I understood it, only that I looked it up, and it appears no less ridiculous than anything else. However its not really a scientific theory, it's doesnt seem like anything more than a very abstract philosophy at best. Its no different than stating the universe is held on the back of a turtle osculating at a wavelength we can not perceive.



Quote:


Think of each monad as a simple equation. Say... Z = Z2 +  C. If you run that equation, it generates devastatingly beautiful, infinite complexity:






Oh you fucking hippie, you just had to bring up fractal's:rolleyes:. There really should be a rule about that.:rofl:


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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