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 Asante
cat door for divine love
 
Registered: 02/06/02
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 Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics  [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#8544075 - 06/20/08 11:31 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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OrgoneConclusion, how about making the ULTIMATE "why Christians suck" thread and then moving on to greener pastures?
It seems to me you are wasting your precious time beating around the same bush over and over again.
Its like being really nauseous but refusing to vomit. Instead of being rid of it you merely perpetuate your nausea.
Throw it all out, make the ultimate thread on the topic and explore other realms.
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 Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Asante]
#8544084 - 06/20/08 11:36 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Only if the believers will agree to make an ultimate "why Christians don't suck" thread. 
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blewmeanie
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc: 
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: undergrounder]
#8544088 - 06/20/08 11:38 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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- Well im thinking here not of the kind of God that most Christians would believe in, more a God that makes a little more sense to modern day thinking.
So since the traditional models of god are absurd, and people are quickly realizing this you have invented a new god to believe in. One that "makes a little more sense to modern day thinking."
In this way cancer might exist because without it, there would actually be MORE suffering in the world, through a similar chain of events... perhaps there was some guy in the 1980s who if he had survived, would have eventually played the pivotal role in destroying the entire world through a nuclear holocaust.
So in order to stop him god creates cancer, and in the process murders billions of people? Why not just not create the guy, or give him a prenatal birth defect.
This all just seems counterintuitive, and unreasonable. You obviously have the intelligence to discern reality from an antiquated mythic coping mechanism. Why INVENT a new god to replace the old one. Your creating stories, and absurd scenarios to validate the god which you created.
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Asante
cat door for divine love
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 83,968
Loc: Omnicyclion
Last seen: 2 hours, 27 minutes
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Veritas]
#8544091 - 06/20/08 11:39 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Only if the believers will agree to make an ultimate "why Christians don't suck" thread.
Seriously, how many of those threads are there in here.
Besides, every person can only decide for himself, so each christian would have a right to their own Ultimate thread.
--------------------
YE OLDE CLICK-O-RAMA FEST ASANTE'S PREPAREDNESS 101
Get 1 month's supplies in case of illness or calamity and help loved ones.
Strengthen your friendship ties - and exchange more favors and advice !
OMNICYCLION SUPPORT TICKETS STORE SPONSORS/VENDORS TREES
OMNICALCULATOR CULTIVATE!! DISCORD REDDIT FACEBOOK
please help the teachings of The Omnicyclion reach a wider audience
thank you for volunteering your efforts towards this mind (r)evolution
PAXG: 0x52e54ca2780894ea3f839ca0904be2c319c813e9 what's paxg?
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Asante]
#8544105 - 06/20/08 11:43 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Ah, well, I guess we'll all have to deal with both sides of the story, then. 
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blewmeanie
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc:
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Veritas]
#8544127 - 06/20/08 11:50 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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At least we can all agree on one thing.....scientologists are loons.
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undergrounder
fluffy bunny
Registered: 11/10/06
Posts: 1,394
Loc: Sydney 
Last seen: 9 months, 8 days
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
#8544161 - 06/20/08 12:01 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
blewmeanie said:
So since the traditional models of god are absurd, and people are quickly realizing this you have invented a new god to believe in. One that "makes a little more sense to modern day thinking."
Not really, im playing devil's advocate here, the inventory is actually Gottfried Lebniz would have given this answer if he were still alive today, since of all the ideas of God, his makes the most sense... His alternative cosmology (the Monadology), a type of atomicism different to Newton's theory of gravity and close in many ways to modern String Theory, makes a lot of sense even today.. In fact Leibniz has many public disputes with Newton while he was alive (not only about who invented the calculus), and the monadology, similar also to Special Relativity Theory, can account for a whole host of logical problems that we still have today.
Quote:
So in order to stop him god creates cancer, and in the process murders billions of people? Why not just not create the guy, or give him a prenatal birth defect.
[Leibniz would say] because God doesn't control what happens after he started the experiment, he only set the experiment up from the beginning, he can't create a perfect world, only the -best- one, given the infinite possibilities of the equation. Further, he can't intervene once it's got itself going.
Quote:
This all just seems counterintuitive, and unreasonable. You obviously have the intelligence to discern reality from an antiquated mythic coping mechanism. Why INVENT a new god to replace the old one. Your creating stories, and absurd scenarios to validate the god which you created.
Although Leibniz was a Catholic, he lived in a time when Galileo was forced by the Catholic Church to recount his proclamation that the sun revolved around the world, the same time budding scientists and philosophers were being chased and burned at the stake for herecy.. Great thinkers like Descartes and Leibniz were often forced to rewrite God into their systems in order to stay alive, and its debatable whether Leibniz inserted God into his cosmology in order to appease the Church. Let's say though, that it turns out that God really does exist. If you wanted to write about your findings in any scientific journal, you'd probably be 'burned at the stake' and need to appease the scientists of the time in the same way as Galileo did 3 centuries ago.
It doesn't seem that crazy if you see God as the creator, but not the arbiter of life. Of course his name might not be God and he might not even 'be' a thing, but even if you could consider God as the first equation of the state of the universe at the moment of the big bang, then that equation would be all-poweful and all-knowing... very God-like you'd think.
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 RIP
Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
   
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blewmeanie
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc:
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 Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: undergrounder]
#8544261 - 06/20/08 12:32 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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.
Edited by blewmeanie (02/02/10 11:12 AM)
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TheHappieHippies
Uber-Goober
Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 814
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
#8544367 - 06/20/08 01:02 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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What all of these Christians fail to realize when making those statements about why they aren't cured miraculously, is that Jesus never said he would remove consequences of actions. Since many people who have diabetes, have it as a direct result to poor diet, and lack of proper exercise, it is only natural to assume that the consequences of their actions won't be removed.
I think part of the reason the people who made these statements failed to realize that is because it seems common amongst many modern Christians to deny any blame in themselves, opting instead to say they are "being tested" or "God works in mysterious ways".
What YOU seem to be forgetting is that modern Christians aren't really followers of Jesus. They are followers of an image of him that has been distorted by church leaders and other HUMANS who seek to gain power, fame, money, and other such greedy worldly things.
A TRUE Christian (Christian being translated literally to Christ-like) would be someone who is a poor wanderer, who helps whomever they can, loving ALL other humans, not telling anyone they are going to hell if they don't repent or believe a certain way.
There are many things that Christians believe that Jesus NEVER taught...
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
~Gandhi
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blewmeanie
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc:
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: TheHappieHippies]
#8544418 - 06/20/08 01:13 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Edited by blewmeanie (01/23/10 02:42 PM)
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TheHappieHippies
Uber-Goober
Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 814
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
#8544464 - 06/20/08 01:26 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Kwai Chang Caine would have made a much better messiah.
That's funny, but it brings up another interesting point. Jesus never actually claimed to be the Messiah.
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blewmeanie
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc:
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: TheHappieHippies]
#8544489 - 06/20/08 01:32 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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.
Edited by blewmeanie (02/02/10 11:11 AM)
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
#8544520 - 06/20/08 01:42 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
blewmeanie said:
- Well im thinking here not of the kind of God that most Christians would believe in, more a God that makes a little more sense to modern day thinking.
So since the traditional models of god are absurd, and people are quickly realizing this you have invented a new god to believe in. One that "makes a little more sense to modern day thinking."
With the exception of the "modern day of thinking" this is how I think of god, something that is either rational and/or incomprehensible, but not trite or emotional, and not someone who makes mistakes, et cet. What is wrong with this?
You seem to decide that because someone rejects a fallacious view of the universe that has similarities to more popular views that the former must be predicated upon the later, and that the former is therefore depnedant upon the later for validity in some manner. I reject this view.
I didn't create my belief from christianity, and whether christiantiy is logical or not has no effect on my beliefs.
Your notion of creating a new god is also silly. You presuppose god doesn't exist by the 'creation' metaphore, which isn't helpful. Same with the "new" god.
Quote:
blewmeanie said:
I just dont see a reason or a necessity to invent a god. I'm not even suggesting that atheism is the route to take, but why not simply observe the facts
Collect data
Examen any aparent patterns that may exist
Using these facts build a predictive model
Use the predictions about what should happen to collect more data.
Use that data to modify your model abandoning the
impossible, and keeping only what is certain
Repeat until perfect
Obviously this is how people think. What are you suggesting? I don't get what the utility of your statement is. If your saying the presence of absence of god, or his nature, is evidenced by these methods, why don't you just say so?
Otherwise your just saying: think.
k 
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TheHappieHippies
Uber-Goober
Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 814
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
#8544895 - 06/20/08 03:21 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
blewmeanie said:
John 4:25-26
25 The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."
26 Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."
I should have been more specific once again.
Jews frequently used the word messiah to mean teacher, prophet, priest, or king. Jesus was most definitely a teacher, and I personally believe him to have been a prophet of divine nature along the lines of Muhammad, Sarah, Miriam, Devorah, Hannah, Siddhartha Gautama, Moses, Noah, Abraham, and MANY MANY others who taught a particular path to God. So his answer to the woman at the well who was seeking answers from a messiah who would "tell us all things" relevant to worshiping God, as God sought to be worshiped (which was exactly what Jesus successfully displayed with his lifestyle) was not an admittance of being the Messiah who would save the Jews, but an admittance (in my opinion of course) to simply being a messiah as the word was used in it's day.
The point I was trying to make is that Jesus never claimed to be the Davidic Anointed King (the Messiah that was to save the Jews) that Christians accept him to be. In fact, he denied being a descendant of David's line, and is only traced to be of David's line through Joseph, who wasn't even biologically related to Jesus. It is also interesting to note that Matthew and Luke use two contradicting genealogies to prove that Joseph was of David's line, quite possibly because David's line had been wiped out, or untraced for 500 years before Jesus was alive.
Of course, I'll admit that my OPINION of what Jesus meant by admitting to the woman at the well that he was the messiah she was speaking of, is an opinion based in my own subjective understanding of the man, as is pretty much ANY interpretation of anything the man said. I will also add that my understanding of Jesus, has led me to strive to be a person like he was in his life: one who is poor by choice, helps others and accepts all humans for being the most they are capable of being in this life. And furthermore, my desire to understand Jesus more accurately has bred a love for knowledge and learning.
I will not deny that the average religious believer seems to be a little less intelligent then the average skeptic. I got a little irritated by this thread upon initially reading it, but I just realized, as I hope all who read this will also realize, it is possible to be spiritual without being religious, and it is also possible to be an intelligent skeptic, and a spiritual person...
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,406
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: TheHappieHippies]
#8544921 - 06/20/08 03:31 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
and is only traced to be of David's line through Joseph, who wasn't even biologically related to Jesus
We must honor the sancitity of marriage unless you get pregnant by someone other than your husband and come up with a really, really, really good story.
The Virgin Mary is worshipped as some great saint when in point of fact, she was merely a cheating tramp.
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blewmeanie
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc:
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: johnm214]
#8544958 - 06/20/08 03:47 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Edited by blewmeanie (02/02/10 11:09 AM)
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#8545286 - 06/20/08 06:15 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Why do you waste so much time ridiculing the shallow statements of the shallow multitudes? There is much sense to be made of religious myths in many traditions, the Christian tradition included, which lends direction to the development of human nature. All the time you spend griping and being annoyed means that you are cultivating negative emotion in yourself. From any sensible position (and I'm reading some of that impossibly obtuse Gurdjieff stuff on my summer break) - cultivating negative emotion is the worst thing anyone can do to ourselves on every level from the cellular upwards.
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Cannashroom
Smoke two Joints
Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 2,141
Loc: Everywhere
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#8545395 - 06/20/08 07:05 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Jesus is really a personification of the sun, as well as drugs, like the cannabis oil he was "anointed" with in the bible (Jesus Christ means the anointed one. But Jesus IS the oil (walking on water?) and with it the sick can be healed.
Now it has been shown that for some people cannabis oil will control their diabetes, so their answer should have been: Because the Catholic Church has robbed us of the true body of Christ, the mushroom, his blood, mushroom tea, and the anointing oil.
The Hebrew recipe for the anointing oil called for a few pounds of the flowering tops of the hemp plant, should have been nice and potent.
Jesus Also made the blind see, and as we know cannabis can be used to treat glaucoma which causes blindness, so that is a possibility (I dont know if after vision is lost it could be restored, just musing).
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"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.
This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.
Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.
Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."
Albert Einstein
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blewmeanie
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc:
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: Cannashroom]
#8545410 - 06/20/08 07:11 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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- The Hebrew recipe for the anointing oil called for a few pounds of the flowering tops of the hemp plant, should have been nice and potent.
I hear this all the time, but I have yet to find or hear of a reliable source aside from hippie conjecture.
SOURCES?
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Cannashroom
Smoke two Joints
Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 2,141
Loc: Everywhere
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
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Re: Reasons why Jesus fails to heal Christian Diabetics [Re: blewmeanie]
#8545429 - 06/20/08 07:16 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.
This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.
Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.
Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."
Albert Einstein
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