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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Logic - Reality or not?
#8542705 - 06/19/08 10:38 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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In a previous thread it was stated that logic is not a creation of man, but exists outside of the human mind.
Does logic exist outside of human mentality, or is it merely a mental construct we project onto the world and use to label experience?
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Registered: 09/07/04
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Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: deranger]
#8542861 - 06/19/08 11:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Recognizing the application of using a stick to poke a grub out of a hole in a tree by an animal, is that an extrapolation of logic in a creative sense....? When an animal fashions and uses a tool to do something, is it based in "logic" or "intelligence"....? Or....?
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
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Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: deranger]
#8542911 - 06/19/08 11:41 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Logic cannot exist without a mind.
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#8543083 - 06/20/08 12:42 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
PhanTomCat said:When an animal fashions and uses a tool to do something, is it based in "logic" or "intelligence"....? Or....?
maybe it is based on what it is, which may not exactly be what we think it is...
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: deranger]
#8543826 - 06/20/08 09:50 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think that the basis of logic (cause and effect) is part of the natural world. The more-complex applications of logic are created by humans.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,008
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Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: deranger]
#8543855 - 06/20/08 10:02 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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math and science are "logical" and outside of the mind as well as in the mind but it is a logical error to equate math to logic or to equate science to logic. this is a common logical error.
-------------------- _ 🧠_
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blewmeanie
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
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Logic: - 1 a (1): a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning (2): a branch or variety of logic <modal logic> <Boolean logic>
Source:
Mathematical logic: - Mathematical logic is a subfield of logic and mathematics.[1] It consists both of the mathematical study of logic and the application of this study to other areas of mathematics. Mathematical logic has close connections to computer science and philosophical logic, as well. Unifying themes in mathematical logic include the expressive power of formal logics and the deductive power of formal proof systems.
Source:
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Boots
Disenchanted
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Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: blewmeanie]
#8545564 - 06/20/08 08:09 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think logic is just a way to describe our way of thinking.
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blewmeanie
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Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: Boots]
#8545567 - 06/20/08 08:10 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well some of us anyway.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: deranger]
#8545686 - 06/20/08 08:53 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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+1 for logic is man made.
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daytripper23
?
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Loc:
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: math and science are "logical" and outside of the mind as well as in the mind but it is a logical error to equate math to logic or to equate science to logic. this is a common logical error.
I understand you that science, with its reliance upon empiricism doesn't quite fit; but why not mathematics?
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MokshaIs
everywhereeverpresent
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Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: daytripper23]
#8545863 - 06/20/08 10:36 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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my roommate would often make the statement 'nothing escapes logic!'
i don't know. logic is not Reality is something i just might say. and writing this makes me realize how much philosophical debate seems silly to me, all too often an excercise in intellectual arrogance, as this very statement is, yet, we must probe into the mystery, so, me say naye! logic not be Reality.
and when is it ever really and either or? Truly, it must be both and more
and, of course
-------------------- in all of Infinite there is but One and it is nOne ever and always in every and all ways
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
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Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: daytripper23]
#8545866 - 06/20/08 10:38 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Logic is man's way of reasoning things so they can be considered valid. It is man made.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,008
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Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: daytripper23]
#8546526 - 06/21/08 05:21 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
daytripper23 said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: math and science are "logical" and outside of the mind as well as in the mind but it is a logical error to equate math to logic or to equate science to logic. this is a common logical error.
I understand you that science, with its reliance upon empiricism doesn't quite fit; but why not mathematics?
if you study logic, you will learn that there is a notation that is used to describe implication, dependency, inclusion, exclusion. In math there are some branches that deal with the same types of things. however math itself is not about implication, though you can use logical processes to puzzle through a math problem. math is about fixed values or ranges, equality, equations, and descriptions of trajectories as well as time, form, space, and the relations between. these descriptions fit naturally with the actualities that may be oberved. logic is not math (some might wish that it were so pristine) math is not logic (though a branch of it includes logical notation and venn diagrammes) but it is used to refine logical issues.
in the end, logic is a cultured (ordered) form of associative thought, while math is the collection of operations and equations that we have discovered which will work outside of associative thought (i.e. mechanically, engineering wise, in computers, and all the devices that function in the world, as well as nature etc.) - logic is the rigor by which we "think" and it is very cultural.
the spanish inquisition was defended by iron fisted religious logic.
to have math available in your associative processes really opens up your useful imaginative abilities, it is great to have science available too. being immersed in religion can present huge challenges to logic-associative thought, but it can teach a lot about social organization and morality.
-------------------- _ 🧠_
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likeinsights
Stranger
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Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: deranger]
#8550882 - 06/22/08 02:45 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Does logic exist outside of human mentality, or is it merely a mental construct we project onto the world and use to label experience?
Not sure if there is any answer to your question. It implies that logic belongs to something ("external universe" or "human creation"). Considering that logic is wat makes the group theory exists, this question would implies logic belong to logic. Kind of contridactory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems
Edited by likeinsights (06/22/08 03:05 PM)
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burgatory
Outlander
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Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: likeinsights]
#8551531 - 06/22/08 06:07 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Logic is a way of navigating the mind, like putting a grid over everything to move one space at a time. Logic can only be applied to a logical system that exists beforehand. We can logically work out our problems because they are already problems created by logic. All the rules of logic are self-invented because once you lay that grid down and start doing things, everything slides into everything else, and you have "laws" and "formulas" emerge, because it's all one process.
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Wherever the hero may wander, whatever he may do, he is ever in the presence of his own essence — for he has the perfected eye to see. There is no separateness. Thus, just as the way of social participation may lead in the end to a realization of the All in the individual, so that of exile brings the hero to the Self in all. joseph campbell For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. jesus
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blewmeanie
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Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: burgatory]
#8552652 - 06/22/08 11:49 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
burgatory said: Logic is a way of navigating the mind, like putting a grid over everything to move one space at a time. Logic can only be applied to a logical system that exists beforehand. We can logically work out our problems because they are already problems created by logic. All the rules of logic are self-invented because once you lay that grid down and start doing things, everything slides into everything else, and you have "laws" and "formulas" emerge, because it's all one process.
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burgatory
Outlander
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Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: blewmeanie]
#8552838 - 06/23/08 01:06 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Who knows maybe I'm a retard.
--------------------
Wherever the hero may wander, whatever he may do, he is ever in the presence of his own essence — for he has the perfected eye to see. There is no separateness. Thus, just as the way of social participation may lead in the end to a realization of the All in the individual, so that of exile brings the hero to the Self in all. joseph campbell For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. jesus
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: burgatory]
#8554019 - 06/23/08 11:32 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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maybe?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Alma Mistica
Stranger
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Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: Icelander]
#8556028 - 06/23/08 08:38 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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How does anything exist outside the human mind?
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blewmeanie
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Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: Alma Mistica]
#8556078 - 06/23/08 08:50 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alma Mistica said: How does anything exist outside the human mind?
Care to expand upon this?
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dill705
Amazed
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Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: Rose]
#8556635 - 06/23/08 11:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said: Logic is man's way of reasoning things so they can be considered valid. It is man made.
-------------------- My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end. -Icelander- I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW! ~dill705~
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