Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]
Invisiblederanger
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
Logic - Reality or not?
    #8542705 - 06/19/08 10:38 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

In a previous thread it was stated that logic is not a creation of man, but exists outside of the human mind.

Does logic exist outside of human mentality, or is it merely a mental construct we project onto the world and use to label experience?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 15 years, 30 days
Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: deranger]
    #8542861 - 06/19/08 11:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Recognizing the application of using a stick to poke a grub out of a hole in a tree by an animal, is that an extrapolation of logic in a creative sense....?
When an animal fashions and uses a tool to do something, is it based in "logic" or "intelligence"....?
Or....?


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: deranger]
    #8542911 - 06/19/08 11:41 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Logic cannot exist without a mind.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblederanger
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #8543083 - 06/20/08 12:42 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:When an animal fashions and uses a tool to do something, is it based in "logic" or "intelligence"....?
Or....?




maybe it is based on what it is, which may not exactly be what we think it is...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: deranger]
    #8543826 - 06/20/08 09:50 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I think that the basis of logic (cause and effect) is part of the natural world.  The more-complex applications of logic are created by humans.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,008
Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: deranger]
    #8543855 - 06/20/08 10:02 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

math and science are "logical" and outside of the mind as well as in the mind
but it is a logical error to equate math to logic or to equate science to logic.
this is a common logical error.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleblewmeanie
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc: Flag
Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8544021 - 06/20/08 11:11 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

:orly:

Logic: - 1 a (1): a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning (2): a branch or variety of logic <modal logic> <Boolean logic>

Source:

Mathematical logic: -  Mathematical logic is a subfield of logic and mathematics.[1] It consists both of the mathematical study of logic and the application of this study to other areas of mathematics. Mathematical logic has close connections to computer science and philosophical logic, as well. Unifying themes in mathematical logic include the expressive power of formal logics and the deductive power of formal proof systems.

Source:


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBoots
Disenchanted
Male

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1,137
Loc: Northwood, Ohio, U.S.A.
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8545564 - 06/20/08 08:09 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I think logic is just a way to describe our way of thinking.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleblewmeanie
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc: Flag
Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: Boots]
    #8545567 - 06/20/08 08:10 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Well some of us anyway.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: deranger]
    #8545686 - 06/20/08 08:53 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

+1 for logic is man made.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8545699 - 06/20/08 09:06 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
math and science are "logical" and outside of the mind as well as in the mind
but it is a logical error to equate math to logic or to equate science to logic.
this is a common logical error.




I understand you that science, with its reliance upon empiricism doesn't quite fit; but why not mathematics?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMokshaIs
everywhereeverpresent


Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 476
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: daytripper23]
    #8545863 - 06/20/08 10:36 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

my roommate would often make the statement 'nothing escapes logic!'

i don't know. logic is not Reality is something i just might say. and writing this makes me realize how much philosophical debate seems silly to me, all too often an excercise in intellectual arrogance, as this very statement is, yet, we must probe into the mystery, so, me say naye! logic not be Reality.

and when is it ever really and either or? Truly, it must be both and more

and, of course

:goose:


--------------------
in all of Infinite
there is but One
and it is nOne
ever and always
in every and all ways

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRoseM
Devil's Advocate
Female User Gallery


Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: daytripper23]
    #8545866 - 06/20/08 10:38 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Logic is man's way of reasoning things so they can be considered valid. It is man made.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,008
Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: daytripper23]
    #8546526 - 06/21/08 05:21 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
math and science are "logical" and outside of the mind as well as in the mind
but it is a logical error to equate math to logic or to equate science to logic.
this is a common logical error.




I understand you that science, with its reliance upon empiricism doesn't quite fit; but why not mathematics?




if you study logic, you will learn that there is a notation that is used to describe implication, dependency, inclusion, exclusion.
In math there are some branches that deal with the same types of things.
however math itself is not about implication, though you can use logical processes to puzzle through a math problem.
math is about fixed values or ranges, equality, equations, and descriptions of trajectories
as well as time, form, space, and the relations between.
these descriptions fit naturally with the actualities that may be oberved.
logic is not math (some might wish that it were so pristine)
math is not logic
(though a branch of it includes logical notation and venn diagrammes) but it is used to refine logical issues.

in the end, logic is a cultured (ordered) form of associative thought,
while math is the collection of operations and equations that we have discovered which will work
outside of associative thought (i.e. mechanically, engineering wise, in computers,
and all the devices that function in the world, as well as nature etc.)
- logic is the rigor by which we "think" and it is very cultural.

the spanish inquisition was defended by iron fisted religious logic.

to have math available in your associative processes really opens up your useful imaginative abilities,
it is great to have science available too. being immersed in religion can present
huge challenges to logic-associative thought, but it can teach a lot about social organization and morality.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelikeinsights
Stranger
Registered: 06/22/08
Posts: 5
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: deranger]
    #8550882 - 06/22/08 02:45 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


Does logic exist outside of human mentality, or is it merely a mental construct we project onto the world and use to label experience?





Not sure if there is any answer to your question. It implies that logic belongs to something ("external universe" or "human creation"). Considering that logic is wat makes the group theory exists, this question would implies logic belong to logic. Kind of contridactory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems

Edited by likeinsights (06/22/08 03:05 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineburgatory
Outlander
Male


Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 641
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: likeinsights]
    #8551531 - 06/22/08 06:07 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Logic is a way of navigating the mind, like putting a grid over everything to move one space at a time. Logic can only be applied to a logical system that exists beforehand. We can logically work out our problems because they are already problems created by logic. All the rules of logic are self-invented because once you lay that grid down and start doing things, everything slides into everything else, and you have "laws" and "formulas" emerge, because it's all one process.


--------------------

Wherever the hero may wander, whatever he may do, he is ever in the presence of his own essence — for he has the perfected eye to see. There is no separateness. Thus, just as the way of social participation may lead in the end to a realization of the All in the individual, so that of exile brings the hero to the Self in all.

joseph campbell


For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

jesus

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleblewmeanie
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc: Flag
Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: burgatory]
    #8552652 - 06/22/08 11:49 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

burgatory said:
Logic is a way of navigating the mind, like putting a grid over everything to move one space at a time. Logic can only be applied to a logical system that exists beforehand. We can logically work out our problems because they are already problems created by logic. All the rules of logic are self-invented because once you lay that grid down and start doing things, everything slides into everything else, and you have "laws" and "formulas" emerge, because it's all one process.



:confused:


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineburgatory
Outlander
Male


Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 641
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8552838 - 06/23/08 01:06 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Who knows maybe I'm a retard.


--------------------

Wherever the hero may wander, whatever he may do, he is ever in the presence of his own essence — for he has the perfected eye to see. There is no separateness. Thus, just as the way of social participation may lead in the end to a realization of the All in the individual, so that of exile brings the hero to the Self in all.

joseph campbell


For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

jesus

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: burgatory]
    #8554019 - 06/23/08 11:32 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

maybe? :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAlma Mistica
Stranger
Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 8
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: Icelander]
    #8556028 - 06/23/08 08:38 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

How does anything exist outside the human mind?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleblewmeanie
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc: Flag
Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: Alma Mistica]
    #8556078 - 06/23/08 08:50 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alma Mistica said:
How does anything exist outside the human mind?



Care to expand upon this?


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedill705
Amazed
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 3,779
Loc: The Cat's Cradle
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
Re: Logic - Reality or not? [Re: Rose]
    #8556635 - 06/23/08 11:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Logic is man's way of reasoning things so they can be considered valid. It is man made.




:thumbup:


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]

Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe
( 1 2 3 all )
Anonymous 5,476 47 02/23/04 07:29 AM
by raytrace
* Mathematical Explanation...
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
Deiymiyan 11,148 140 03/10/06 09:01 AM
by fireworks_god
* ETERNAL LIFE PROVEN TO EXIST BY AFS!!!!
( 1 2 all )
atomikfunksoldier 3,241 34 07/09/03 10:46 AM
by chunder
* Intuition fails the reality test
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Swami 4,703 70 12/08/03 10:37 AM
by Swami
* Proof That God Does Not Exist
( 1 2 all )
yewhew 4,241 37 02/21/04 03:34 AM
by raytrace
* An example of using the principles of logic.
( 1 2 all )
Anonymous 3,610 29 07/24/03 12:32 AM
by Sclorch
* mathematics:human discovery or invention? *DELETED*
( 1 2 3 4 all )
0toxic0 5,649 60 08/08/03 02:14 PM
by Diploid
* Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from...
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Shroomalicious 9,221 69 12/18/02 06:30 PM
by Strumpling

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
2,888 topic views. 2 members, 10 guests and 12 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.027 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 14 queries.