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Offlinebeengonetoolong
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DUNK. or DEBUNK!
    #8541785 - 06/19/08 06:28 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Someone tell me why dunking a cake is better than not dunking a cake.

Going on 10 years and never once have I dunked a cake, and never once have I had a "crappy" flush.  I am considering trying it, and ive searched for this topic on the forum, with many opinions FOR this technique. 

However, does anyone have some good before and after pics? I am not talking a 1 cake experiment, I would like to see some real proof.

Thanks in advance.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: DUNK. or DEBUNK! [Re: beengonetoolong]
    #8541802 - 06/19/08 06:34 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Soaking mushrooms substrates was proved effective at least 1,000 years ago.  The ancient Chinese used to soak shiitake logs, and still do.  Edible growers soak substrate blocks for shiitake and other species before first flush, and after each additional flush.  Dunking cakes has been proved effective nearly since day one.

It's well known that to get fastest colonization, you make your substrate slightly on the dry side.  However, this doesn't leave moisture enough for a good flush, so the substrate is soaked overnight (dunked).

Nobody is going to prove to you that dunking works.  That's like asking for proof that a wheel will roll, a ball will bounce, or that cops like donuts.
RR


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Offlinebeengonetoolong
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Re: DUNK. or DEBUNK! [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8541814 - 06/19/08 06:41 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Generally soaking the casing very well the day of the casing is sufficient.  Is that not about the same as dunking? heh.

Not trying to be ignorant.  I am just wondering why people have switched or do this.. I have never done this.  So spraying the casing extremely well until damp is not sufficient? seems to me it would be pretty close to dunking. 

Who knows..


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Offlinepsg1
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Re: DUNK. or DEBUNK! [Re: beengonetoolong]
    #8542121 - 06/19/08 08:10 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Give it a shot. 6 cakes dunked vs 6 cakes without, all of the same isolate/clone. Surely a guy with 10yrs growing under his belt can spare 6 cakes in case this whole "dunking" thing turns out to be nonsense!


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Offlinebeengonetoolong
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Re: DUNK. or DEBUNK! [Re: psg1]
    #8542192 - 06/19/08 08:27 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Im considering it :P


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Invisiblebillyboy36
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Re: DUNK. or DEBUNK! [Re: beengonetoolong]
    #8542276 - 06/19/08 08:47 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Adding water to the casing is very much like a dunk.  It's adding water to the cakes that will be absorbed.  Adding water to a cakes casing layer once until it's soaked isn't usually the maximum amount of water a cake can absorb for a full maxed out flush. 

It does depend of course on a few variables like: how thick casing layer we talkin' here?  The thicker the casing layer, the more water it takes to soak which means the more water the cake will absorb.  How much water you use in the initial making of the cake.  How long was the cake colonized before it started pinning?  These all play a role. 

like RR said, you want a fairly unsaturated mix for colonization.  This allows for more air in the mix, or empty space for myc to colonize across; leading to speedy colonization.  Anyone that has made a cake too wet will know that it tends to make myc stall and colonization slow as the myc has to grow through a stalemate of water and food.  smaller amounts of water are used for colonization compared to fruit production.  A dunk allows the cake to take on water in these empty spaces all over the cake in one shot where it then stores this water reserve until needed during fruiting.

You may not be getting crappy flushes by soaking the casing once, but if you do that a few times over the course of the cakes being in the FC, I bet you'll get great flushes almost every time, esp. with a proven isolate.

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OfflineWakingUp
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Re: DUNK. or DEBUNK! [Re: billyboy36]
    #8542444 - 06/19/08 09:28 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

i dunk my cakes before birth, ive never had any luck after the first flush, when i dunk a cake after the first flush, and put it back in the FC, it never produces more shrooms, and gets massively contaminated, same with casings...

im gonna keep dunking before i birth the cakes, but never ever again after a flush! nor will i dunk a casing


maybee its just my luck, or fault, but its not working for me


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Invisiblemalfunction556
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Re: DUNK. or DEBUNK! [Re: WakingUp]
    #8542597 - 06/19/08 10:12 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Not to hijack, but I keep hearing "dunk before birth"
Does this refer to filling the jar with water or popping the jar out and putting it in a bowl of water?
I was under the impression birthing was popping it out of the jar. OR is it considered when the cake goes to the FC?
I've (or more specifically my ex wife) had 2 kids.  When they popped out, that was the birth.  When they went to the crib, well that was just hanging in the FC...


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: DUNK. or DEBUNK! [Re: malfunction556]
    #8542614 - 06/19/08 10:18 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

You dunk after birth.  The mycelium in the cakes can't absorb much water while in the jar because once the cake expands to the edge of the glass, it can't absorb any more.
RR


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OfflineCapnSkoo
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Re: DUNK. or DEBUNK! [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8542960 - 06/19/08 11:53 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Would there be any noticeable difference in Dunk and Roll in Verm Vs Dunk and Roll in 50/50 case mix?


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Re: DUNK. or DEBUNK! [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8543004 - 06/20/08 12:04 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
You dunk after birth.  The mycelium in the cakes can't absorb much water while in the jar because once the cake expands to the edge of the glass, it can't absorb any more.
RR




What is your thoughts on dunking after your first flush and so on? It seems like I have read alot of people saying you should, but I often see other people saying they have bad results. I have also read dunk and don't roll after your flush. I have never read your take on it though. :bigblunt:


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Edited by Seeker_22 (06/20/08 12:12 AM)

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: DUNK. or DEBUNK! [Re: Seeker_22]
    #8543619 - 06/20/08 08:27 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I have also read dunk and don't roll after your flush. I have never read your take on it though. 




:thumbup: 

Dunk, but don't roll after each flush.  The reason is that if you roll after a flush, the fresh layer of verm covers contaminant spores that have naturally landed on the cake and protects them so they can germinate and wreck havoc.  It's not a guarantee of failure of course, and many growers do roll after a flush, but the contamination rates will be higher than if you didn't roll.
RR


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OfflineWakingUp
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Re: DUNK. or DEBUNK! [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8543620 - 06/20/08 08:29 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
You dunk after birth.  The mycelium in the cakes can't absorb much water while in the jar because once the cake expands to the edge of the glass, it can't absorb any more.
RR




prolly my fault here maybee im using mixed terminology

when i refer to dunking before birth i mean before putting in the fruiting chamber, but i also do dunk them in their jars, i scrape off the top verm later, and when i add water the cake floats with about half an inch of water below it, and plenty of room on the sides for expansion, ive never had my cakes swell up and touch the sides of the jar on a 12 hours dunk, though i would like to see this... am i doing something wrong? should i be dunking longer?

otherwise dunking in the jars prebirth seems to work well for me, i get nice first flushes and the cakes are plenty hydrated as far as i can tell


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Re: DUNK. or DEBUNK! [Re: WakingUp]
    #8543917 - 06/20/08 10:28 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

^Thanks for clearing that up for me RR. Oh and thanks for taking the time to put up those youtube videos they are really clear, well produced and very informative. I have watched it a good 4 times and have it pretty much memorized. I hope everything works out in the long run. :mushroom2:


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: DUNK. or DEBUNK! [Re: Seeker_22]
    #8543960 - 06/20/08 10:47 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ive never had my cakes swell up and touch the sides of the jar on a 12 hours dunk, though i would like to see this... am i doing something wrong? should i be dunking longer?





Yes.

First it's important to understand we're not hydrating the cakes with a dunk(soak).  The cake is fully colonized with mycelium, and so it's the individual mycelial cells that must be hydrated.

Cells absorb moisture through a process called osmosis.  If there's a higher water pressure outside the cell than inside, and the cell doesn't detect danger, it admits the water through the cell wall until the pressure inside and outside the cell are the same.

With the above in mind, note that a higher water pressure will put more water into the cells than a lower water pressure.  By immersing the cakes in water and holding them down, more pressure is exerted on the cell walls.  I often put a plate or wire mesh over the cakes, and then place a weight above to force the cakes or substrate blocks deep into the soaking container.  In addition, the standard time for soaking is 24 hours, not 12.

I prefer the established mycological term 'soaking' over the OMC version of the word, 'dunking', because dunk implies that we put the substrates under water, and then simply lift them back out again.  Soaking implies soaking, which is more accurate.  I hope this helps.
RR


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OfflineWakingUp
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Re: DUNK. or DEBUNK! [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8545572 - 06/20/08 08:11 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

ive never had my cakes swell up and touch the sides of the jar on a 12 hours dunk, though i would like to see this... am i doing something wrong? should i be dunking longer?





Yes.

First it's important to understand we're not hydrating the cakes with a dunk(soak).  The cake is fully colonized with mycelium, and so it's the individual mycelial cells that must be hydrated.

Cells absorb moisture through a process called osmosis.  If there's a higher water pressure outside the cell than inside, and the cell doesn't detect danger, it admits the water through the cell wall until the pressure inside and outside the cell are the same.

With the above in mind, note that a higher water pressure will put more water into the cells than a lower water pressure.  By immersing the cakes in water and holding them down, more pressure is exerted on the cell walls.  I often put a plate or wire mesh over the cakes, and then place a weight above to force the cakes or substrate blocks deep into the soaking container.  In addition, the standard time for soaking is 24 hours, not 12.

I prefer the established mycological term 'soaking' over the OMC version of the word, 'dunking', because dunk implies that we put the substrates under water, and then simply lift them back out again.  Soaking implies soaking, which is more accurate.  I hope this helps.
RR




very informative RR :-) so "soaking" in a larger container would also provide more pressure then right ? more pounds per square inch? im assuming i dont know, it would seem logical that if you had more altogether there would be more pressure, or would that only apply to depth ?


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Re: DUNK. or DEBUNK! [Re: WakingUp]
    #8545612 - 06/20/08 08:29 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I'm pretty sure depth and volume would determine pressure.


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Offlinebeengonetoolong
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Re: DUNK. or DEBUNK! [Re: WakingUp]
    #8545613 - 06/20/08 08:29 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Great info RR. Thanks.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: DUNK. or DEBUNK! [Re: Humbled]
    #8546660 - 06/21/08 07:19 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Psilocelium said:
I'm pretty sure depth and volume would determine pressure.




Correct.  It's the same phenomenon that makes your ears hurt if you dive too deep in a pool or lake.  It's the weight of the water above that causes the pressure.
RR


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OfflineJ6000
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Re: DUNK. or DEBUNK! [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8656671 - 07/19/08 08:58 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:


Cells absorb moisture through a process called osmosis.  If there's a higher water pressure outside the cell than inside, and the cell doesn't detect danger, it admits the water through the cell wall until the pressure inside and outside the cell are the same.




You are right about almost everything; except osmosis is not a function of pressure, rather a function of concentration.  Water will naturally move across a membrane from a low salt concentration to a higher concentration.  In fact, water will even move from from low pressure to high pressure to achieve this. 

Also, the diffusion of water has nothing to do with what the cell wants.  Water is small enough to pass through the cell membrane no problem.  The cell can open special channels to facilitate the process, but the water will diffuse freely, always flowing up the salt gradient.

Quote:

With the above in mind, note that a higher water pressure will put more water into the cells than a lower water pressure.  By immersing the cakes in water and holding them down, more pressure is exerted on the cell walls.  I often put a plate or wire mesh over the cakes, and then place a weight above to force the cakes or substrate blocks deep into the soaking container.





I am not positive, but I don't think the negligible pressure difference of a few inches of water will make any difference whatsoever.  Most if not all cells (especially cells with cell walls such as fungal cells) have a higher pressure than the surrounding environment.  Many cells are 2 atmospheres or above, that's how they retain their shape.  Even if there was more pressure at the bottom, it's still not overcoming the 2+ atm inside the cell.

Water still flows inside the cell, because the salt content of the cell is higher than the surrounding water.

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