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OfflineJammer
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I predict that on 09/11/02 that:
    #854017 - 08/30/02 07:58 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

America Attacks Iraq!


(at the very least I feel that America might be very much at war with Iraq by 09/11/2002)


I often fear that George W. feels a strong need to finish what his daddy has been so badly critised for not doing. In the past few days the Vice President has been giving public speeches warning the world as to why America must attack... In fact for many months now the media has reported about many goverment leaks that suggest that America will invade Iraq - AGAIN.

I really dont want to see this happen.

(I hope that I'm wrong)


--------------------
>>Jammer>>

Edited by Jammer (08/30/02 08:42 PM)

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Jammer]
    #854062 - 08/30/02 08:21 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

It would violate every principle of international law and be one of the biggest crimes against humanity.

But since when has that stopped the Bush family?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Xlea321]
    #854073 - 08/30/02 08:29 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

International is: The nation with the biggest army makes the rules.

And btw we do have the right to defend ourselves from terrorists and congress has already authorized all necessary action when they gave the president free reign to do anything to combat terror shorly after 9-11.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #854077 - 08/30/02 08:32 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Well, you can certainly carry on bombing and maiming thousands of innocent people. In the face of opposition from every country on earth. But what good with that do?

Don't think terrorism like invading Iraq is going to stop anything. You are going to create thousands of embittered people who will be committed to attacking america in any way possible.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Xlea321]
    #854079 - 08/30/02 08:34 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

You're not going to make thousands in Iraq bitter. They would be grateful if the Israeli army would march in and liberate them at this point. Their dictator makes them all suffer and they live in fear. That's how it is.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #854132 - 08/30/02 09:44 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

I'm sorry but dropping bombs on people from 15,000 feet tends to make them bitter.

They were suffering under Saddam 20 years ago when the US were backing him to the hilt. The last thing they want is the same bastards who installed Saddam installing another thug.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

Edited by Alex123 (08/30/02 09:45 PM)

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OfflineJammer
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Xlea321]
    #854138 - 08/30/02 09:49 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

RE: "Ask the american air force to drop a bomb on your house and listen to your mother scream in agony for a few hours before she dies. See how you feel about the americans then."



hmm... it might be just enough to make some raise there kids to make suicide hi-jacked plane-rides into tall buildings.

Does anyone NOT understand why America was attacked?


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>>Jammer>>

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InvisibleGabbaDjS
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Jammer]
    #854427 - 08/31/02 04:44 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Bush lost out in his attempt to wage war with Iraq under the war on terrorism... Turns out that none of the hijackers were Iraqi but almost all of them were Saudi yet we are kissing the Saudis asses for support in attacking Iraq which even after a home cooked dinner they still refuse to give us the green light...

Everything I have read though is that congress supports an attack and if Georgie asks he will get it. They say that he dont even need to ask congress because were still at war under the decree his father made and we can go back and finish what we started... (that just dont make sence).

I dont know exactly when or if it will happen before 9/11 but I guarantee it will happen before our immunity agreement with the UN runs out...


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GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG             

Edited by GabbaDj (08/31/02 05:54 AM)

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Xlea321]
    #854689 - 08/31/02 09:14 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Domocracy will be thre new order in Iraq and all the middle east. Let freedom ring!!!


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Anonymous

Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #854696 - 08/31/02 09:18 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

I don't think we are gonna bomb innocent people, that is just ignorant. I Believe that the us will lead a ground war against them, as well as use there better intelligence to bomb military targets.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Xlea321]
    #854713 - 08/31/02 09:28 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

In reply to:

be one of the biggest crimes against humanity



Did you even think about that before you wrote such a foolish statement?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: ]
    #855686 - 08/31/02 08:06 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

The US doesn't believe in ground wars. As Afghanistan showed, because they are terrified of seeing an american in a body bag they relied on making war from 15,000 feet and letting the brutal Northern Alliance do the ground war. The result? 5000 dead Afghan civilians and every single leader of the Taliban and Al-queda living free and easy.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Xlea321]
    #855702 - 08/31/02 08:12 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

I htink this is the first bit you posted that I agree with. I reall think Bush showed his weakness by not launching a major ground offensive. He had bin Laden surrounded at Tora Bora but due to the fact that there were only a couple hundread actual ground troops there he slipped through our grasp. The northern alliance doesn't care about the al-qaeda or the 9-11 attack. They were just the chumps to do the dirty work for us. BTW, I disagree with the 5,000 civilians killed thing, where do you get those stats? Most of those killed were shooting artillery or in building where small arms were being fired from.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #855708 - 08/31/02 08:13 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Did you even think about that before you wrote such a foolish statement?

To be honest I think I underplayed it. To date 600,000 children under 5 have died in agony thanks to the US enforced sanctions. No other country agrees with the sanctions - without the US they would have been lifted long ago. The UN directors in charge of them have resigned in disgust saying the US is guilty of "crimes against humanity" and "genocide".

Dropping thousands of tons of bombs on a people suffering like the Iraqi's already are from lack of medical supplies and food is a crime against humanity. And why? 15 years ago the US was desperate to build up Saddams weapons of mass destruction, now he is such a "threat" that they want to bomb Iraq back into the stone age to get rid of him. Does anyone really believe this shit? He was the same man 15 years ago when Bush senior worshipped the ground he walked on.

600,000 kids is the same as Iraq suffering a World trade center attack every month for the last decade.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Xlea321]
    #855723 - 08/31/02 08:18 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Dropping thousands of tons of bombs on a people suffering like the Iraqi's already are from lack of medical supplies and food is a crime against humanity.



Bombs won't be dropped on suffering Iraqi suffering civilians. They will be dropped on their well fed and healthy soldiers and on military compunds.

It's also worth knowing that Iraq's current regime has intentionally with held humanitarian supplies from the people they were intended for to his friends and military units. It is Saddam's own regime that makes the people suffer. We will liberate them and install a democracy.

Let Freedom Ring!!!  :smile:


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #855745 - 08/31/02 08:25 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Bombs won't be dropped on suffering Iraqi suffering civilians.

Nah man, war from 15,000 feet isn't the video game the generals want you believe. In Afghanistan 5000 civilians were bombed to death - this is a place where the population is a lot more spread out than Iraq. Not to mention the water sanitation facilities and all the other places that will be bombed as they were in 1991- this will cause massive casualties.

It's also worth knowing that Iraq's current regime has intentionally with held humanitarian supplies from the people they were intended for to his friends and military units.

This US claim was exhaustively studied by UN inspectors and found to be complete nonsense. The deaths are a result of the the US sanctions not Saddam withholding food and medical supplies.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineRemy
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #857771 - 09/01/02 07:03 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

The US has worse aim then a drunken, blind midget, shooting a slingshot at a beer bottle from 50 feet away. They hit themselves as often as they miss the "enemy". Its ridiculous what democratic means now, compared to what the founders of this nation considered it to mean. Weve gone from democracy to hipocracy

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Invisiblepuscle
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Jammer]
    #858181 - 09/02/02 12:59 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

In reply to:

(at the very least I feel that America might be very much at war with Iraq by 09/11/2002)




I disagree and I'll tell you why. The powers that be will give us time to (re)mourn this national tragedy. This may take a few days. As grief turns to anger, selective disinformation and misinformation will be "leaked". This is a time proven formulae that doesn't fail. Even in a Hollywood picture show we need a reason to seek revenge.

That said, I say we go in and get that bastard, Saddam. So what if junior is finishing his daddy`s business? Wouldn't you?

Edited by puscle (09/02/02 01:02 AM)

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: puscle]
    #858303 - 09/02/02 04:47 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

What of his daddys buisness? For 10 years Reagan and Bush were so close to Saddam it was known as "the love affair". Bush has slaughtered 600,000 iraqi kids under 5 but Saddam was never in the least danger.

Bush knew that if it wasn't Saddam it was very likely to be someone unfriendly to US interests which is why he let Saddam slaughter the shi''tes and kurds after the end of the gulf war. Allowing him to abuse the "no-fly zone" with helicopter gunships.

This idea that America has wanted to "get" Saddam for the last 10 years is utter bullshit. They are perfectly happy letting the Iraqi people die in agony by enforcing sanctions which they knew would only strengthen Saddams grip on power. Clearly the profit margin of starting a war is now greater than the profit of leaving Saddam in power. They need to do something to justify that massive leap in defence spending.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

Edited by Alex123 (09/02/02 04:54 AM)

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Invisiblepuscle
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Xlea321]
    #858570 - 09/02/02 08:40 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks for that insight. Maybe Jammer is right. I guess we'll just have to "Wait and see".

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: puscle]
    #858653 - 09/02/02 09:31 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Hopefully Bush will see reason...


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineJammer
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: puscle]
    #859810 - 09/02/02 07:25 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

RE: "I disagree and I'll tell you why. The powers that be will give us time to (re)mourn this national tragedy. This may take a few days. As grief turns to anger, selective disinformation and misinformation will be "leaked". This is a time proven formulae that doesn't fail. Even in a Hollywood picture show we need a reason to seek revenge."

....................

....

At this time I do agree with you!

(people change)


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>>Jammer>>

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InvisiblePGF
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Jammer]
    #859815 - 09/02/02 07:26 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

fuck AmeriKKKa's war(s) for oil.


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***The Real Shroomery nigger

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: PGF]
    #859828 - 09/02/02 07:31 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Do you own a car or pay a light bill? How would you like to pay $6.00 per gallon or pay triple for your light bill?

But more important that the oil is protecting Israel and ourselves from the terror by night and the arrow that flieth by day.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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OfflineJammer
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #859852 - 09/02/02 07:39 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

RE: "Do you own a car or pay a light bill? How would you like to pay $6.00 per gallon or pay triple for your light bill?"


Is this issue REALLY worth killing sooo many people over? :confused: 


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>>Jammer>>

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Jammer]
    #859879 - 09/02/02 07:47 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

That's not the issue we're using to justify the war. Fricking WORLD WAR 3 started on September Eleventh Thousand and One. We're already at war. The head of the Iraqi arms program has already defected to us and has supplied evidence that the current Iraqi regime will be a nuclear power mid 2003 - 2004. We have to stop them now or we never will be able to in the future. The question worth killing all those military targets for is: Do you want Iraq and Saddam Hussein to have his finger on a nuclear button pointed at you and at Israel?


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Edited by Ellis Dee (09/02/02 08:07 PM)

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OfflineJammer
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #859933 - 09/02/02 08:02 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

RE: " Fricking WORLD WAR 3 started on September Eleventh Two Thousand and Two."


Jammer: "huh?
What date is on YOUR calender today :confused:?"
 


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>>Jammer>>

Edited by Jammer (09/02/02 08:11 PM)

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Jammer]
    #859952 - 09/02/02 08:09 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Oh man! I made a typo! Thanks for bringing it to my attention. *Sarcasm*.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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InvisiblePGF
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #860079 - 09/02/02 08:57 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

alternative energies

and Israel?
fuck Israel and fuck the palestinians....both barbaric less then white peoples.

there, I said it......sorry if it offends.
but their actions have been speaking louder than my words just did for many years now.

act like idiots, be called an idiot ......nuke the sand niggers, one and all, including the israeli jews in that piece of land they kill babies to live in

:smirk:


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***The Real Shroomery nigger

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InvisibleGabbaDjS
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #860163 - 09/02/02 09:21 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

>>>> The head of the Iraqi arms program has already defected to us and has supplied evidence that the current Iraqi regime will be a nuclear power mid 2003 - 2004. <<<<

How can anyone be a year or two away from nuclear capability? I mean the information is out their, they arent inventing anything new, they already have skilled engineers and bookoo bucks to buy anything they want on the black market so whats the wait? If they have the explosive nuclear parts I would say that they already have nuclear weapons capability and could propably put together a delivery system quickly, say in the amount of time it took Georgie Bush to attack from the first mention of it....

Could it be that the head of the arms program defected as a spy? An agent of misinformation to fool us into starting a war against a nuclear power killing hundreds of thousands of American lives?

Hmmmm


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GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG             

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #860869 - 09/03/02 05:13 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

The head of the Iraqi arms program has already defected to us and has supplied evidence that the current Iraqi regime will be a nuclear power mid 2003 - 2004.

Horseshit. Can't you tell when your being lied to? Bush needs a reason to justify getting the biggest defence budget in history to his corporate buddies. They need to create "threats" - Saddam is a good bogeyman to scare the gullible with.

btw, what do you think Saddam is going to do if he had nuclear weapons? Lob one at Israel? Tell me, what happens then? Iraq is wiped off the face of the earth in retaliation. What we do know about Saddam is that he is a very shrewd operator. He is not going to launch nuclear missiles at anyone.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineLOBO
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: ]
    #861270 - 09/03/02 08:46 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

In reply to:

I don't think we are going to bomb innocent people, that is just ignorant. I Believe that the us will lead a ground war against them, as well as use there better intelligence to bomb military targets.







If we use the same intelligence as we are using in Afghanistan, I am sure the casualties would be low.
How more weddings we are going to hit this time let's include birthdays, bachelor&#8217;s parties and bingos


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Xlea321]
    #861498 - 09/03/02 11:07 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

In reply to:

Horseshit. Can't you tell when your being lied to?



No reason he should when you obviously can't.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflinePhred
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Xlea321]
    #862850 - 09/04/02 03:59 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

btw, what do you think Saddam is going to do if he had nuclear weapons? Lob one at Israel?

He might. He lobbed SCUDS at Israel during the Gulf War, even though Israel had nothing to do with the task at hand -- Iraq's invasion of Kuwait.

Tell me, what happens then? Iraq is wiped off the face of the earth in retaliation. What we do know about Saddam is that he is a very shrewd operator.

Shrewd? You think it was shrewd to gratuitously twist the tail of a nuclear power (Israel almost certainly has nukes) for no gain whatsoever? Come to that, you think it was shrewd to invade Kuwait in the first place?

You and I have different definitions of the word "shrewd", I guess. I would have said "reckless" was a closer fit.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Phred]
    #862920 - 09/04/02 05:03 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

He might. He lobbed SCUDS at Israel during the Gulf War, even though Israel had nothing to do with the task at hand -- Iraq's invasion of Kuwait.

No, getting Israel involved in the war would have meant the shaky Arab coalition almost certainly collapsing. This was why the US went to desperate lengths to ensure that Israel didn't respond. Nothing to do with recklessnesson the part of Saddam, just pure shrewd calculation. If Israel had responded it's likely the war would still be going on today.

Shrewd? You think it was shrewd to gratuitously twist the tail of a nuclear power (Israel almost certainly has nukes) for no gain whatsoever? Come to that, you think it was shrewd to invade Kuwait in the first place?

earth calling pinkie..earth calling pinkie...Israel cannot go around dropping nuclear bombs on people. They would have been a pariah in the international community for decades to come. No-one uses nuclear weapons because someone throws a scud at them. Sounds like Saddam is a hell of a lot shrewder than you.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Phred]
    #862932 - 09/04/02 05:09 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Come to that, you think it was shrewd to invade Kuwait in the first place?


"The US is not interested in Arab-Arab conflicts."

- Said to Saddam by United states ambassador to Iraq April Glaspie in a meeting in July 1990 after Iraq troop movements on the Kuwait border. This was the green light for the invasion.

There's a whole lot more to the invasion of Kuwait than your media told you pinkie.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflinePhred
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Xlea321]
    #862984 - 09/04/02 05:39 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Nothing to do with recklessnesson the part of Saddam, just pure shrewd calculation.

You say the reason for his attack on Israel was to lure them into the conflict. His ploy didn't work. Miscalculation on his part. Not shrewd.

No-one uses nuclear weapons because someone throws a scud at them.

And Saddam KNEW that for a fact? The Israelis are not the most stable people in the world, and they have a formidable military strength, conventional OR nuclear. The SCUD attacks are the ONLY incident of aggression against Israel I am aware of that the Israelis decided not to respond to. In EVERY other case they have retaliated, and retaliated HARD. Saddam was taking an enormous gamble. Not shrewd, reckless.

pinky





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OfflinePhred
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Xlea321]
    #862990 - 09/04/02 05:45 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

This was the green light for the invasion.

Again, a miscalculation on Saddam's part. Not shrewd.

There's a whole lot more to the invasion of Kuwait than your media told you pinkie.

What is "my media"? I am not an American. I was born in Canada, but for the past fifteen years I have lived in the Dominican Republic. I read newspapers written in english and in spanish. I read websites. I have no television, so I might see a CNN broadcast twice a year in a sports bar or when I am on vacation.

pinky


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #863091 - 09/04/02 06:58 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

In reply to:

Bombs won't be dropped on suffering Iraqi suffering civilians. They will be dropped on their well fed and healthy soldiers and on military compunds.




Sure, all bombs carry a monkey inside, that knows exactly the difference between civilians and soldiers.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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OfflineMAIA
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #863098 - 09/04/02 07:03 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

In reply to:

BTW, I disagree with the 5,000 civilians killed thing, where do you get those stats? Most of those killed were shooting artillery or in building where small arms were being fired from.




Well, what if there were 5000 people shooting artillery and in the buildings ? How can you tell the diference between 400 and 5000 people when they are dispersed or inside buildings, a good fast eye ?

MAIA


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Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Phred]
    #863145 - 09/04/02 07:34 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

The Israelis are not the most stable people in the world, and they have a formidable military strength

They are also completly and utterly economically and militarily dependent on the US. If this support was withdrawn they would be doomed. They understand this which is why they didn't respond.

In EVERY other case they have retaliated, and retaliated HARD

But never with nuclear weapons.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Phred]
    #863157 - 09/04/02 07:40 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

So far, more than 1,6 million people have died because of the sanctions, from hunger and diseases. More than 500,000 of them are children (Unicef ?Preliminary Findings and Conclusions Iraq Child Mortality Surveys, July 1999).


"Malnutrition was not a public health problem in Iraq prior to the embargo. Its extent became apparent during 1991 and the prevalence has increased greatly since then: 18% in 1991 to 31% in 1996 of [children] under five with chronic malnutrition (stunting); 9% to 26% with underweight malnutrition; 3% to 11% with wasting (acute malnutrition), an increase in over 200%. By 1997, it was estimated about one million children under five were [chronically] malnourished." --Situation Analysis of Children and Women in Iraq, UNICEF Report, 30 April 1998, pg. 23 and 63.

"Even the most conservative, independent estimates hold economic sanctions responsible for a public health catastrophe of epic proportions. The World Health Organization believes at least 5,000 children under the age of 5 die each month from lack of access to food, medicine and clean water. Malnutrition, disease, poverty and premature death now ravage a once relatively prosperous society whose public health system was the envy of the Middle East. I went to Iraq in September 1997 to oversee the U.N.'s "oil for food" program. I quickly realized that thishumanitarian program was a Band-Aid for a U.N. sanctions regime that was quite literally killing people. Feeling the moral credibility of the U.N. was being undermined, and not wishing to be complicit in what I felt was a criminal violation of human rights, I resigned after 13 months." --Denis Halliday, former UN humanitarian aid coordinator for Iraq (Seattle Post-Intelligencer, February 12, 1999)



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Don't worry, B. Caapi

Edited by Alex123 (09/04/02 07:42 AM)

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OfflineWisebloodX
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Xlea321]
    #863926 - 09/04/02 03:50 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

In reply to:

So far, more than 1,6 million people have died because of the sanctions, from hunger and diseases. More than 500,000 of them are children (Unicef &#8221;Preliminary Findings and Conclusions Iraq Child Mortality Surveys, July 1999).




That is horrible and I do think the sanctions should be lifted but you can't put the blame directly on america. How many castles does saddam own???

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Offlineuno
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Jammer]
    #864579 - 09/04/02 11:39 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

In reply to:

Does anyone NOT understand why America was attacked?




It's become painfully obvious to me that a lot of my friends do not. They see things on the news and hear things from the gov't and they believe that we are truly THE best country in the world w/ the highest moral highground.


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- uno

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Offlineuno
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #864584 - 09/04/02 11:53 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

In reply to:

The question worth killing all those military targets for is: Do you want Iraq and Saddam Hussein to have his finger on a nuclear button pointed at you and at Israel?





A very plausible argument may be "Do you want America and George W. Bush to have his finger on a nuclear button pointed at you and at Mecca?"

Dubya(and america) is every bit the maniac that these "rogue" gov'ts and political groups are being accused of.


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- uno

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OfflineJammer
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: uno]
    #866071 - 09/04/02 06:09 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

RE: "It's become painfully obvious to me that a lot of my friends do not. They see things on the news and hear things from the gov't and they believe that we are truly THE best country in the world w/ the highest moral highground." (Regarding Jammer's stament: "Does anyone NOT understand why America was attacked?")



I feel your pain man... I get sick everytime I hear a "red-neck" from my state root and "aplaud" about the idea of killing more arabs... I feel that it's sheer unfounded hate and nothing more.

Having said that: GOD BLESS AMERICA
(lets hope that he has sympathy for America anyway)


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>>Jammer>>

Edited by Jammer (09/04/02 06:10 PM)

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OfflinePhred
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Xlea321]
    #867246 - 09/06/02 11:16 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Aha! Here it is! Sorry it took me so long to find it, but you posted it in a different thread than the one where I challenged you to back up your claims. Congratulations on actually providing a source for one of the five claims I challenged. Keep up the good work.

"So far, more than 1,6 million people have died because of the sanctions, from hunger and diseases."

This number is meaningless unless we know what the annual Iraqi mortality rate from hunger and disease was before sanctions were imposed. Note that I am not claiming the mortality rate from these two causes didn't increase, I am saying that even before the sanctions a certain number of Iraqis died from disease.

How many of the 1.6 million would have died even if there were no sanctions? Are ALL deaths from disease included in that total; AIDS, heart attacks, stroke, etc.?

"Even the most conservative, independent estimates hold economic sanctions responsible for a public health catastrophe of epic proportions."

I have no doubt that public health in Iraq is worse today than it was in 1990, and I have no doubt that the sanctions exacerbate the situation. The blame for this can be laid squarely at the feet of Saddam Hussein. No invasion of Kuwait, no sanctions.

Your claim that the US had murdered 600,000 Iraqi children under the age of 5 doesn't hold water, for the following reasons:

1) The sanctions were imposed by the United Nations, not by the US.

2) The United Nations sanctions would have been lifted if the terms of Iraq's surrender had been met.

3) The United Nations sanctions would not have been imposed at all if Iraq had not invaded Kuwait.

For what it's worth, I believe the sanctions are useless. Sanctions almost never work, because the only people who can actually change the policy of the sanctioned country are not affected by the sanctions at all.

If the idea was to make sure Iraq was no longer a menace to its neighbors, it was idiocy to stop the troops at the borders of Iraq and just hope that sanctions would make Saddam abide by the terms of the surrender. The UN coalition SHOULD have occupied Iraq long enough to destroy Iraq's military bases and equipment, depose Hussein, and oversee free elections of a new government.

To get back to my point, though...

It is neither the United Nations NOR the United States of America who bear responsibility for Iraq's current plight. It is Saddam Hussein.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Phred]
    #867258 - 09/06/02 11:25 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Was that the best you could manage after so long?

Do you have any evidence for the rubbish you proclaim? Or do you think you know more than UNICEF people on the ground and the director of the oil for food programme himself who resigned in disgust calling the US responsible for genocide and crimes against humanity?


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OfflineJammer
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Jammer]
    #867387 - 09/06/02 01:02 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Here is the latest from CNN.com (RE: 09/11/02):

This CNN story can be found here.



Pair arrested for 9/11 attack plan

September 6, 2002 Posted: 5:34 PM EDT (2134 GMT)


STUTTGART, Germany (CNN) -- German officials arrested a Turkish man and his American fiancee who they say planned an attack on a U.S. military base in Germany close to the anniversary of the September 11 attacks.

Authorities suspect the pair were planning to target either the U.S. military base in Heidelberg or some other target in the city, said Estefan Kleibach, a spokesman for the Minister of the Interior for the state of Baden-Wuerttemberg told reporters.

Police seized a cache of explosives when they arrested the couple at their apartment near the southwestern German city of Heidelberg, said Kleibach.

Inside the apartment, authorities found a poster of Osama bin Laden, more than 280 pounds of chemicals and five pipes which could have been turned into bombs with the addition of the chemicals, he said. He did not say what kinds of chemicals they were.

The 25-year-old man was raised in Germany and is employed by a store or a factory selling chemicals, Kleibach said.

His 23-year-old fiancee is a civilian employee of the U.S. military in a supermarket at the American base in Heidelberg where the U.S. Army is headquartered in Europe, Kleibach said.

Neither was identified by name.

Kleibach said the two are not cooperating with investigators. The man has a record of criminal convictions for petty crimes, including theft and drug use, and is not known to be a member of any terrorist groups, Kleibach said.

There were indications that an attack was planned for September 11, according to Thomas Schaeuble, the chief law enforcement officer for Baden-Wuerttemberg state, who refused to elaborate further.

Schaeuble said the Turkish man was a strict Muslim "who hates Americans and Jews."

The German prosecutor's office also said U.S. authorities had arrested an Afghan-born German from the city of Hamburg. Three of the hijackers involved in the September 11 terror attacks belonged to a Hamburg cell.

The prosecutor's office in Karlsruhe said U.S. officials had arrested the man in New York and said he was now being held in Virginia. U.S. officials told Germany there was evidence of possible attacks planned by the 39-year-old man, the office said. (Full story)

The Interior Ministry in the state of Baden-Wuerttemberg refused to comment on an advance article in Saturday's Bild newspaper claiming officials were investigating a link to the al Qaeda terror network.

"I would put it this way -- when in these times you arrest someone and find a large quantity of explosives on him, you can suspect that, but the investigation is in progress and we can say nothing about that," Ministry spokeswoman Alice Loyson-Siemering told The Associated Press.

The U.S. Army Europe headquarters is in Heidelberg while U.S. European Command, which oversees the military operations in Europe and parts of Africa, is also based in Baden-Wuerttemberg, near Stuttgart.

U.S. military authorities had no immediate comment but security forces say they are not aware of any threats against installations in Stuttgart and there were no signs of heightened security at Heidelberg.

German Interior Minister Otto Schily said on Wednesday that authorities had reviewed 500 tips of possible new attacks since September 11, but had found no concrete evidence to suggest an attack to mark the first anniversary of the strikes on the World Trade Center and Washington was in progress.

Germany is on alert because Mohammed Atta, believed to have been at the controls of the first plane that crashed into the twin towers, had lived and studied in Hamburg, Germany.

CNN Correspondent Chris Burns and Producer Claudia Otto contributed to this story.

Again the link to this story is at: http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/09/06/germany.arrest.explosives/index.html


Could there be another ATTACK ON AMERICA on 09/11/02? And how will Bush W. handle this if there is???


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>>Jammer>>

Edited by Jammer (09/06/02 06:56 PM)

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OfflinePhred
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Xlea321]
    #867789 - 09/06/02 06:10 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Do you have any evidence for the rubbish you proclaim?

To which "rubbish" are you referring?

I proclaimed that Saddam Hussein was responsible for the imposition of sanctions against Iraq, not the United States of America or the United Nations. I need not provide any EVIDENCE to back that statement, simple logic yields the conclusion. I repeat, if there had been no invasion of Kuwait, there would have been no United Nations sanctions.

Or do you think you know more than UNICEF people on the ground...

As I stated, I personally have no doubt the mortality rates in Iraq have increased since the imposition of sanctions. But I do question the accuracy of the figures given in your quote. As UNICEF itself is scrupulously careful to point out in UNICEF: Questions and Answers for the Iraq child mortality surveys - BAGHDAD, 16 August 1999 (UNICEF) Survey Methodology/credibility --

"These surveys were never intended to provide an absolute figure of how many children have died in Iraq as a result of sanctions. Given the difficulty of accurately and specifically attributing the cause of death of a child to sanctions, any such figure that may be derived would certainly be questionable."

UNICEF also said in the same report:

"A dramatic increase in bottle-feeding of infants has occurred in Iraq. Given the contribution of bottle-feeding to higher levels of malnutrition and child mortality, UNICEF is urging the Government to remove breastmilk substitutes from the rations and replace them with additional food for pregnant and lactating women. UNICEF has also called on the Government to promote exclusive breastfeeding of infants as a national policy."

Alex123, could you please explain for us the connection between Iraqi women following the worldwide trend of moving towards a more modern (albeit less nutritious) method of child-rearing (bottle-feeding vs. breast-feeding) and the imposition of the United Nations sanctions? Could it be possible that the sanctions have nothing to do with it at all -- that ALL of the increase in infant mortality is instead due to the "dramatic increase in bottle-feeding"? For the record, I personally don't believe it IS entirely due to bottle-feeding, but as UNICEF themselves say, it is difficult to specifically attribute the death of a child to any single cause. Certainly UNICEF feels bottle-feeding is a serious enough factor in the increase in Iraq's infant mortality to emphasize in no uncertain terms their opposition to it.

Here's some more from the report:

"In the autonomous northern region, under-5 mortality rose from 80 deaths per 1000 live births in the period 1984-1989 to 90 deaths per 1000 live births during the years 1989-1994. The under-5 rate fell to 72 deaths per 1000 live births between 1994 and 1999. Infant mortality rates followed a similar pattern."

Now isn't that interesting! In the northern region of Iraq, where Hussein's control is weakest, the latest mortality rates are actually 10% lower than they were ten years earlier, before sanctions were imposed. What is the only conclusion we can draw from this? Why, it MUST be that the sanctions are actually SAVING CHILDREN'S LIVES!!!!! *sarcasm*

What is the real explanation for this anomaly? Someone with less belief than I in Hussein's oft-demonstrated concern for his fellow man might say that in the autonomous north, the humanitarian supplies are actually making it to those who need it, rather than being hijacked by Hussein's thugs to be resold at a profit through the black market.

Sound bites and carefully selected snippets are worse than useless when it comes to statistical analyses. The METHODOLOGY of the surveys must be considered, and ALL factors looked at, not just the ones which appear to support your personal agenda.

...and the director of the oil for food programme himself who resigned in disgust calling the US responsible for genocide and crimes against humanity?

I carefully read and re-read your quote from Denis Halliday, but I still can't find where he even MENTIONED the United States, much less the part where he said the US was responsible for genocide. Perhaps you could point it out to me. Thank you.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Phred]
    #867865 - 09/06/02 06:57 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

I carefully read and re-read your quote from Denis Halliday, but I still can't find where he even MENTIONED the United States, much less the part where he said the US was responsible for genocide. Perhaps you could point it out to me. Thank you.

Arn't you even aware of which country is enforcing and demanding the UN sanctions continue? The enormous influence the US has over UN policy? I suppose you believe concentration camp policy had nothing to do with Hitler either.

Last Wednesday, on 16th February 2000, seventy US Congress members held a joint press conference with Arab-American groups in Washington for this purpose.

The group's spokesman, Mr.David Bonior, a Democrat for Michigan State described the current sanctions 'infanticide masquerading as policy.' He added, 'Our message is simple. We're saying: millions of children are suffering and we refuse to close our eyes to the slaughter of innocents.'

Early last week on 14 February 2000, Mr. Hans von Sponeck, the UN assistant secretary general and humanitarian coordinator in Iraq announced his resignation after strongly condemning the economic sanctions for unjustly punishing the innocent Iraqi people. He called for an end to the sanctions, saying his conscience cannot be silent over a 'true human tragedy' that had no end in sight.

Mr. von Sponeck, whose resignation will take effect on 31st March after 15 months on the job, has spoken of the destruction of Iraqi society under sanctions.

'As a UN official, I should not be expected to be silent to that which I recognise as a true human tragedy that needs to be ended' he said.

"How long the civilian population, which is totally innocent on all this, should be exposed to such punishment for something that they have never done?" he asked.

Two days after von Sponeck's resignation, on 16 February, Ms Jutta Burghardt, the head of the UN World Food Programme in Baghdad, also offered her resignation to protest how the economic sactions against Iraq are eroding its society.

In a telephone interview with The Washington Post from his office in Baghdad, Mr. von Sponeck said he and Ms. Burghardt resigned after concluding that the latest UN Security Council resolution passed last December, provided false hope that the suffering of ordinary Iraqis would soon be eased.

Mr. von Sponeck's predecessor, Mr. Dennis Halliday, who left the same position after 13 months in September 1998, also cited similar concerns for his resignation, calling the sanctions a 'totally bankrupt concept'.

Mr Halliday who had had a distinguished UN career spanning 34 years said the economic sanctions violated the UN charter and UN conventions on human rights and that he 'could not continue to take part in a policy that was deliberately causing grave and widespread suffering throughout Iraq, while failing to address the root causes of the humanitarian crisis.'

Since his resignation, Mr. Halliday has been committed to his work on behalf of the Iraqi people as he continues to publicly campaign against the US-led UN economic sanctions in Iraq.

According to the UN's own statistics, these sanctions have killed more than 1.7 million Iraqis - 500,000 of them children and the infant mortality rate has more than doubled since its implementation in the last nine years. A litany of other independant studies conducted by humanitarian groups have also supported and exposed the devastating inhumane situation in Iraq which is causing irreparable damage to an entire generation of children.

Mr. von Sponeck also criticised the inadequate Oil-for-Food programme for failing to meet the minimum humanitarian needs of Iraq's 22 million people. In fact, UN reports consistently highlight high malnutrition rates among Iraqis, especially the children.

All of Iraqi's oil revenue earned through the above relief mechanism are controlled by the Security Council. After allocations are taken out to pay billions of dollars for Gulf War reparations and UN administrative expenses, the amount of money which reaches the average person in Iraq is a mere 25 cents per person per day which is hardly enough for survival.

Under the same programme, the US has manipulated the vague category of dual military and civilian use to stop or delay further study of contract applications already approved by the UN Sanctions Commission. By January 2000, the suspended contracts reached 813 in number valued at US$1.183 billion.

In fact, Mr Kofi Annan, the UN Secretary General had in October last year sent a letter to the Security Council indirectly criticizing the US for holding up approval of hundreds of contracts for humanitarian goods under the Oil-for-Food programme.

This means many basic items such as chlorine which is essential for water purification, are banned because of their alleged potential use in chemical weapons production. Such policies have made many other vital infrastructures providing amenities such as waste and sewerage treatment, electricity, food and oil production impossible to be rebuilt and/or repaired.

The Oil-for-Food deal cannot solve the health problems in Iraq because it was intentionally created to serve that purpose. It is another tactic which the US uses to divert attention from the genocidal effects of the sanctions.





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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflinePhred
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Xlea321]
    #867925 - 09/06/02 07:49 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Sigh. Here is what you wrote:

...and the director of the oil for food programme himself who resigned in disgust calling the US responsible for genocide and crimes against humanity

All I want you to do is to direct me to the press release where he called the United States of America responsible for genocide and crimes against humanity. Once you do that, I'll shut up. Perhaps he DID actually say that, but I certainly never saw it anywhere, and neither have you or you would have posted it by now.

I suppose you believe concentration camp policy had nothing to do with Hitler either.

Invalid comparison. Hitler had absolute power over Nazi Germany. The US does not have absolute power over the United Nations.

If the sanctions are so universally condemned, why then do the governments who disagree with them continue to abide by them? Why doesn't Yemen or Sudan or Libya or Cambodia or Viet Nam or North Korea -- none of whom are friends with the US, and all of whom have ignored UN resolutions in the past -- just say, "Fuck it! The sanctions aren't working, the wrong people are being hurt by them, so we're gonna resume trade with Iraq. What are you gonna do about it?"

But all of this discussion is moot. Your claim has always been that the US is responsible for the deaths of those affected by the United Nations sanctions. My claim is that Saddam Hussein is responsible.

Would the United Nations have imposed sanctions if Iraq had not invaded Kuwait? Yes or no?

pinky


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Edited by pinksharkmark (09/06/02 08:20 PM)

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Phred]
    #868126 - 09/06/02 11:45 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Would the UN have imposed sanctions if it wasn't for the US?

Answer that and you'll understand.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Phred]
    #868130 - 09/06/02 11:52 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Invalid comparison. Hitler had absolute power over Nazi Germany. The US does not have absolute power over the United Nations.

That's very naive. Any country that seriously protests against the US is likely to suffer very serious consequences on several levels. Not least economically. If the US decides to reject a UN resolution it's pretty much rejected. On the Palestinian issue for example there have been scores of resolutions passed unanimously by every country except the US and Israel. This is always enough to kill the resolution.

btw, the point was Hitler never worked in a concentration camp as a guard. Does this mean he had no responsibility for what went on there.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #869073 - 09/07/02 02:47 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Bombs won't be dropped on suffering Iraqi suffering civilians. They will be dropped on their well fed and healthy soldiers and on military compunds.

Most of the Iraqi soldiers are forced to fight. In the Gulf War many of them surrendered without a fight. The reason Iraqi civilians are suffering is because of the U.S. sanctions.

It's also worth knowing that Iraq's current regime has intentionally with held humanitarian supplies from the people they were intended for to his friends and military units. It is Saddam's own regime that makes the people suffer. We will liberate them and install a democracy.

And so the clash continues on a gross, ominous scale that only results in more bloodshed, more dead innocent Muslims, and more dead innocent Americans. Invading Iraq is opposed by most of the world, and nearly all of the Muslim world. An invasion of Iraq will only add another transgression on the list for terrorists to justify murder with.

Let Freedom Ring!!!

What if the majority of the people do not want a society structured like America? What if (God forbid) they wan't a state that imposes Shariah law?


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Edited by Zahid (09/07/02 02:48 PM)

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OfflineJammer
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I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Zahid]
    #875396 - 09/10/02 04:52 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Well 09/02/11 is like here. Based on the amount of threads about this subject over the past 24 hours it's clear that many have this on there minds.....

So here goes... (please forgive me gang)
Another 09/11/02 related poll:


I predict that on 09/11/02 that:
An American city gets "nuked"
America's interests overseas get attacked
Small suicide car bombings hit within the USA
America gets hit with an Anthrax/gas attack
The internet gets shut down
Kid Rock & Emanem have a 3-some with Pamala Anderson
The Shroomery makes a pulblic service anouncment to Stop All Wars
Nothing really news worthy
I dont give a flying fuck- I'm sleeping in all day!





Votes accepted from (12/31/69 05:00 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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>>Jammer>>

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OfflineLarrythescaryrex
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Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Jammer]
    #875414 - 09/10/02 05:03 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

I doubt anything happens, but I will turn on the radio before I leave my house. if shit goes down, I just stay in bed.


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RIP Acidic_Sloth

Sunset_Mission said:
"larry the scary rex
verily scary when thoroughly vexed
invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex
mercifully massacring memories masterfully
relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully
mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs
invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs"
April 24th 2011

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OfflineJammer
Computers areMORE Addictive!

Registered: 11/04/00
Posts: 3,998
Loc: (God's Country) - USA
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
Re: I predict that on 09/11/02 that: [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #875512 - 09/10/02 06:12 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

I'm having my tv on the news before I leave the house and my CAR RADIO on an all news channel whenever I go anywhere tomorow! :smirk: 


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>>Jammer>>

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